What is your top-notch argument for the existence of God?

TagliatelliMonster · Jul 8, 2020

Prim969 said:
Koldo you meant logically. Well so did I. The fact that the majority is not always right is correct. But when the historical accounts agree and reflect what the majority have always believed through the ages than it is not just a matter of majority opinion it’s also established with what our past histories verify to us as well.

It is an argument from popularity, if the claim is that the contents of the beliefs are true simply because many believe it to be.

All it really demonstrates, is that people tend to hold supernatural beliefs. That fact doesn by any means demonstrate or support that the supernatural exists and that the beliefs are accurate.

Especially not considering that each culture pretty much has its own (mutually exclusive) religion. A hindu and a christian both hold supernatural beliefs. But their beliefs by no means match up. They are vastly different religions and by definition, they can't both be correct.

So the majority of people holding religious beliefs in no way supports the notion that the contents of those religions are correct - because it's impossible for all of them to be correct considering their mutually exclusive contents.

ALL it shows, is that people tend to hold supernatural / superstitious beliefs and nothing else.

Tagliatelle my apologies my full reply never fully uploaded I think with the log out happening and having to log back in. Has left me feeling some tired. I not not write out fully again for now.

I look forward to you regaining enough energy to post a reply.

rational experiences · Jul 8, 2020

firedragon said:
Somewhat true bro but also not true. This is your stance. But there are those who define atheism as anti-theism, and proactively canvass "there is no God".

Each person is different.

The documents said man was made in the IMAGE ...........of God.

So you would then ask, what is God to own that image.
Atmospheric Absorption & Transmission

If a male said, the presence of stone being stone owns a particular amount of radiation within it. To alter that radiation within stone, you would have to use a higher mass of hotter radiation to achieve it.

That situation is not God in real terms. For the image of God O is planet Earth in relativity.

No man is God, for God is planet Earth the stone as MASS.
John 4:24
God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth.

The science description of stone is that previously it was a hot burning gas mass that cooled. God the Earth is therefore spirit, in science spirit is a gas, when you use metal radiation mass it mass removes the physical presence of stone, as it was a gas.

Relativity of Planet Earth.

TagliatelliMonster · Jul 8, 2020

firedragon said:
Somewhat true bro but also not true.

No. Exactly true.
Not accepting claim X as true, doesn't by itself imply at all that one would accept or make the claim that X is false. I'm sure you can find atheists who do make such claims. The vast majority however don't.
And the people who do, their atheism isn't defined by that claim. Their atheism is only defined by the non-acceptance of the positive claims of theism.

Which is why both the people who do claim god does not exist as well as the people who only reject the claim that a god does exist, are both atheists.

In my experience, the vast majority of atheist do NOT make the claim that gods definatly do not exist - as most of them understand that such a claim would have a burden of proof which would be impossible to meet (because you can't falsify the unfalsifiable).

I'ld say that atheists who DO claim gods do NOT exist, are making a claim that they can't possible justify.

This is your stance. But there are those who define atheism as anti-theism, and proactively canvass "there is no God".

And those are anti-theists - a subset of atheism.
Kind of like "all thumbs are fingers, but not all fingers at thumbs".

Atheism would be a finger. Anti-theism would be a thumb.

Each person is different.

Sure, but atheism is what it is.

firedragon · Jul 8, 2020

TagliatelliMonster said:
No. Exactly true.
Not accepting claim X as true, doesn't by itself imply at all that one would accept or make the claim that X is false. I'm sure you can find atheists who do make such claims. The vast majority however don't.
And the people who do, their atheism isn't defined by that claim. Their atheism is only defined by the non-acceptance of the positive claims of theism.

Which is why both the people who do claim god does not exist as well as the people who only reject the claim that a god does exist, are both atheists.

In my experience, the vast majority of atheist do NOT make the claim that gods definatly do not exist - as most of them understand that such a claim would have a burden of proof which would be impossible to meet (because you can't falsify the unfalsifiable).

I'ld say that atheists who DO claim gods do NOT exist, are making a claim that they can't possible justify.

And those are anti-theists - a subset of atheism.
Kind of like "all thumbs are fingers, but not all fingers at thumbs".

Atheism would be a finger. Anti-theism would be a thumb.

Sure, but atheism is what it is.

Again, this is your stance, not universal. Thats why I said "Somewhat true".

Anyway, that's that. No need for much debate on that mate. Its after all your prerogative and honestly I don't have a right to deny you your prerogative.

Cheers.

Koldo · Jul 8, 2020

Prim969 said:
Koldo you meant logically. Well so did I. The fact that the majority is not always right is correct. But when the historical accounts agree and reflect what the majority have always believed through the ages than it is not just a matter of majority opinion it’s also established with what our past histories verify to us as well.

What do you mean by 'historical accounts' ?
What historical accounts prove that some sort of divine power exists?

BilliardsBall · Jul 8, 2020

viole said:
i suggest you come back when you guys have got your acts together. You have zero chance to convince a skeptic about prophecy, when you cannot even convince theists who share the prophecy part of your scriptures.

ciao

- viole

What are you talking about? I'M A JEW WHO TRUSTS BIBLE PROPHECY ABOUT JESUS.

I can redact what you say to "there are many kinds of skeptics, including theist Jewish skeptics who are skeptical about Jesus".

viole · Jul 8, 2020

BilliardsBall said:
What are you talking about? I'M A JEW WHO TRUSTS BIBLE PROPHECY ABOUT JESUS.

I can redact what you say to "there are many kinds of skeptics, including theist Jewish skeptics who are skeptical about Jesus".

Yea, but they are many who don’t. And since they believe both in God and the prophecy, while not recognizing its fulfillment yet, it is logical to be doubtful that the fulfillment is only what Christian believe, and has no objective value.

ciao

- viole

sojourner · Jul 8, 2020

I don't think there is such a thing as a valid argument for the existence of God. First of all, there's no universally agreed upon definition for God. Second, I'm not sure I believe that God exists as a thing. My belief comes closer to God-as-existence. God is not a being, but Being, itself. therefore, our experience of the divine is a totally subjective thing; there's nothing to hold out in front of ourselves and observe objectively.

Religion isn't about the existence of God. Rather, religion is about the possibility of God, and that possibility is a transformational possibility. We put our faith, not in an "existent God," but in that possibility of the Divine.

lukethethird · Jul 8, 2020

firedragon said:
Varying theologies and religions have diverse concepts of a God. As a theist, what would be your number one argument for the existence of God? Of course the response to this would naturally beg for a definition of what you think God is. Is he a transcended God, is he a man, is he a pantheistic God, or is he a panentheistic God? What ever your concept is, without looking at divinities like sometimes people make their own children their deity, what is your top notch argument for the existence of God?

My top notch argument for the existence of God is that it makes no difference if He exists or not. No one can argue with that, rendering it top notch.

Prim969 · Jul 8, 2020

TagliatelliMonster said:
It is an argument from popularity, if the claim is that the contents of the beliefs are true simply because many believe it to be.

All it really demonstrates, is that people tend to hold supernatural beliefs. That fact doesn by any means demonstrate or support that the supernatural exists and that the beliefs are accurate.

Especially not considering that each culture pretty much has its own (mutually exclusive) religion. A hindu and a christian both hold supernatural beliefs. But their beliefs by no means match up. They are vastly different religions and by definition, they can't both be correct.

So the majority of people holding religious beliefs in no way supports the notion that the contents of those religions are correct - because it's impossible for all of them to be correct considering their mutually exclusive contents.

ALL it shows, is that people tend to hold supernatural / superstitious beliefs and nothing else.

I look forward to you regaining enough energy to post a reply.

Tagliatelle again you claim it is merely a argument of popularity. Many of the ancient writers wrote down what they observed and also from other source materials often of other nations customs & practices as well. Some wrote more efficiently and more accurately of what they observed and wrote . So what your trying to tell us with the historical accounts is that all the religions that people,practiced and observed were merely superstitious supernatural beliefs and that the personal relationships or experiences they had with God and the spiritual realm were not so. You than go on to point out that many cultures had their own ( mutually exclusive ) religion therefore making it impossible for all of them to be correct. I think you gave the example of the conquistadors and the Indians and now the Hindu and Christian and no doubt many others religions would make exemplary examples. Now I fully understand what you are saying and whilst they may have had their exclusive differences in how they saw God in their exclusive beliefs. But still in no wise or in any shape or form does that take away from the established facts of what the histories tell us. And that is they already held a prior belief in God or supreme powers amongst the spiritual realm even if their beliefs were exclusive and some different.

firedragon · Jul 8, 2020

sojourner said:
I don't think there is such a thing as a valid argument for the existence of God. First of all, there's no universally agreed upon definition for God. Second, I'm not sure I believe that God exists as a thing. My belief comes closer to God-as-existence. God is not a being, but Being, itself. therefore, our experience of the divine is a totally subjective thing; there's nothing to hold out in front of ourselves and observe objectively.

Religion isn't about the existence of God. Rather, religion is about the possibility of God, and that possibility is a transformational possibility. We put our faith, not in an "existent God," but in that possibility of the Divine.

Great perspective bro.

firedragon · Jul 8, 2020

lukethethird said:
My top notch argument for the existence of God is that it makes no difference if He exists or not. No one can argue with that, rendering it top notch.

Not an argument mate.

Prim969 · Jul 8, 2020

Koldo said:
What do you mean by 'historical accounts' ?
What historical accounts prove that some sort of divine power exists?

Kolda what I mean by the historical accounts. Are the writings of many of the ancient writers. You know such as Herodotus, Thucydides, Livy, Josephus, Sima Quan and Ban Zhao and Pliny the elder, there are many more. And of course they just didn’t write exclusively on religion. You also have the holy books themselves such as the Shu Ting China the Vedas India the many Jewish writings the Egyptian book of the dead and the epic of Gilgamesh the many Christian writings along with with many others I’m sure that your familiar with most.

MonkeyFire · Jul 8, 2020

Love must be a real thing and would naturally be our creator and still just watch you suffer until you save yourself. At best you promised God you were divine.

lukethethird · Jul 9, 2020

firedragon said:
Not an argument mate.

Like I said...

Koldo · Jul 9, 2020

Prim969 said:
Kolda what I mean by the historical accounts. Are the writings of many of the ancient writers. You know such as Herodotus, Thucydides, Livy, Josephus, Sima Quan and Ban Zhao and Pliny the elder, there are many more. And of course they just didn’t write exclusively on religion. You also have the holy books themselves such as the Shu Ting China the Vedas India the many Jewish writings the Egyptian book of the dead and the epic of Gilgamesh the many Christian writings along with with many others I’m sure that your familiar with most.

How do they prove that some sort of divine power exist?

Koldo · Jul 9, 2020

Prim969 said:
Tagliatelle again you claim it is merely a argument of popularity. Many of the ancient writers wrote down what they observed and also from other source materials often of other nations customs & practices as well. Some wrote more efficiently and more accurately of what they observed and wrote . So what your trying to tell us with the historical accounts is that all the religions that people,practiced and observed were merely superstitious supernatural beliefs and that the personal relationships or experiences they had with God and the spiritual realm were not so. You than go on to point out that many cultures had their own ( mutually exclusive ) religion therefore making it impossible for all of them to be correct. I think you gave the example of the conquistadors and the Indians and now the Hindu and Christian and no doubt many others religions would make exemplary examples. Now I fully understand what you are saying and whilst they may have had their exclusive differences in how they saw God in their exclusive beliefs. But still in no wise or in any shape or form does that take away from the established facts of what the histories tell us. And that is they already held a prior belief in God or supreme powers amongst the spiritual realm even if their beliefs were exclusive and some different.

Therefore a divine power exists? Why?

BilliardsBall · Jul 9, 2020

viole said:
Yea, but they are many who don’t. And since they believe both in God and the prophecy, while not recognizing its fulfillment yet, it is logical to be doubtful that the fulfillment is only what Christian believe, and has no objective value.

ciao

- viole

I see:

1/3 of the world is Christian--Jesus is Lord, as prophesied
1/3 of the world is Muslim--Jesus is a sinless prophet, as prophesied

A few million Jews, not including Messianics like me, reject not only the Jesus prophecies but prophecies in general and specific

Prim969 · Jul 9, 2020

Koldo said:
How do they prove that some sort of divine power exist?

Kolbo They just verify that religion has always been long time before just as we have now. Nothing really to prove.

Prim969 · Jul 9, 2020

Koldo said:
Therefore a divine power exists? Why?

Why does a Divine power exist.. well if the Divine brought the world into being. I’m rather thankful for that. I’m much happy to be alive and to have experienced the many wonderful blessings of this life along with the not so do good..Why does the God exist I not know. Can a mere mortal fully understand how God does exist. I not think we can fully understand. And it maybe a unreasonable question when you think about It. Especially when.you evaluate our frailties and faculties for they are not perfect and limited when compared to the perfect mind and power of God.

What is your top-notch argument for the existence of God?

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