Those contradicting Gospels!

oldbadger · Jul 7, 2020

PruePhillip said:
John might be a cause for anti-Semitism, but it's not from John but from people who hate Jews because
they are different and successful. Verse for verse, I bet there is more pro-Jew in John than anti-Jew.
Besides, John recorded what he saw. His focus, as a Jew, was the life of Jesus, also a Jew.

Yes...... John has added to Antisemitism significantly.
No...... John was no where near as clear as the Synoptics about Jesus's campaign for and on behalf of the Jewish working people.
No...John did not record what he saw, or otherwise he would have known that the Temple demonstration and picketing occurred in the last week of Jesus's mission, not before he even had started to gather his disciples together. Apostle John was not Disciple John.

oldbadger · Jul 7, 2020

PruePhillip said:
And the friends of the Jewish man Jesus were also Jews.

Jesus loved ALL THE JEWISH PEASANTRY!
By the way..... there was no middle class, if you were not a Levite or very successful merchant you were a Jewish peasant, and tghese people were treated like dirt and ripped off by the priesthood and Temple system.

Unfortunately G-John does NOT show that.

The Gospels give an account
and make an historic claim to Jesus.

G-Mark does not. The lasst verses of G-Mark were added later, and references to 'Son of God' did not exist in earliest copies of G-Mark.

They were not concerned with who the 'enemy' was.

Yes they were! What did the Baptist say about the Priesthood? (In Matthew and Mark)

Sadly Luke and John both got that wrong.

Some Samaritans accepted Jesus, some damned him.

The Samaritans had their own place of sacrifice and worship, and whether some liked Jesus or not is besides these points....

Some Gentiles loved Jesus and
some were cruel to him. It's an account. You make of it what you want.

I can only think of one Gentile who liked Jesus. Not many knew him.
Or can you give me a list of Gentiles who loved him?

PruePhillip · Jul 7, 2020

oldbadger said:
Jesus loved ALL THE JEWISH PEASANTRY!
By the way..... there was no middle class, if you were not a Levite or very successful merchant you were a Jewish peasant, and tghese people were treated like dirt and ripped off by the priesthood and Temple system.

Unfortunately G-John does NOT show that.

G-Mark does not. The lasst verses of G-Mark were added later, and references to 'Son of God' did not exist in earliest copies of G-Mark.

Yes they were! What did the Baptist say about the Priesthood? (In Matthew and Mark)

Sadly Luke and John both got that wrong.

The Samaritans had their own place of sacrifice and worship, and whether some liked Jesus or not is besides these points....

I can only think of one Gentile who liked Jesus. Not many knew him.
Or can you give me a list of Gentiles who loved him?

Fundamental to the UNIVERSALISM of the Gospels is that every person's
response to Jesus is different. The Gospel came to the Jews first because
they are symbolically the "people of God." No other reason.
Some Jews, some Gentiles, some Samaritans, some Lebanese accepted
Jesus, and some didn't. Please don't make anything of that.

oldbadger · Jul 7, 2020

PruePhillip said:
Fundamental to the UNIVERSALISM of the Gospels is that every person's
response to Jesus is different. The Gospel came to the Jews first because
they are symbolically the "people of God." No other reason.
Some Jews, some Gentiles, some Samaritans, some Lebanese accepted
Jesus, and some didn't. Please don't make anything of that.

So you could not give me that list of gentiles who loved Jesus. OK.

The what?
The story about Jesus is about a man who stood up with the Baptist against Temple corruption, oppression and hypocrisy.
What people made of it later is up to them.

oldbadger · Jul 7, 2020

Day 5
Contradiction 5

Matthew and Luke both give accounts of the birth of Jesus. Matthew's account clearly dates Jesus's birth to Pre- 4 B.C. because Herod was still alive. However Luke's account dates Jesus's birth to just after 6 A.D.

And so there is a clear 10 year difference in Jesus's birth year ....... and so, either his age at crucifixion ranges from about 25-35 years, or the date of his death ranges from 27-37 A.D. ??

For me these possibilities are not of great importance, but what is of importance to me is that the gospels are therefore not the indisputable words of God, which surely offers more support to revisionist and progressive churches, focusing more upon the messages of love and understanding for all, regardless of gender, sexuality, race or colour.

Exhibits:-

MATTHEW
{2:1} Now when Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judaea in the days of Herod the king, behold, there came wise men from the east to Jerusalem,
{2:3} When Herod the king had heard [these things,] he was troubled, and all Jerusalem with him. .
{2:19} But when Herod was dead, ....................
...............he ........... came into the land of Israel.
{2:22} But when he heard that Archelaus did reign in Judaea in the room of his father Herod, he was afraid to go thither:

LUKE
{2:1} And it came to pass in those days, that there went out a decree from Caesar Augustus, that all the world should be taxed. {2:2} ([And] this taxing was first made when Cyrenius was governor of Syria.)

ACTS
{5:37} After this man rose up Judas of Galilee in the days of the taxing, and drew away much people after him: he also perished; and all, [even] as many as obeyed him, were dispersed.

By the way:- Publius Quirinius, also called Cyrenius, ........ after the banishment of Herod Archelaus in AD 6, Quirinius was appointed governor of Syria over the Prefect and supervised the census in Judea, Idumea and (probably) Samaria..
O.B.

P.S.
Previously..............
Contradiction 1 Post 1
Contradiction 2 Post 26
Contradiction 3 Post 77
Contradiction 4 Post 104

1213 · Jul 7, 2020

oldbadger said:
…
G-Mark tells us when Jesus first chose his first disciples….

It is interesting how you add words to Bible and don’t even seem to notice that. You can’t show any scripture that says “when Jesus first chose his first disciples”.

oldbadger said:
..
Or can you just accept that the gospels are not all the exact words of God?

I think Gospels are witness testimonies by people and God has guided those people.

oldbadger · Jul 7, 2020

1213 said:
It is interesting how you add words to Bible and don’t even seem to notice that. You can’t show any scripture that says “when Jesus first chose his first disciples”.

So I'm not going to get your version of how Jesus had disciples, did the wedding, stayed on Capernaum, did the Temple, went back to his disciples and John...... all before John's arrest, eh?
Now....... since I need to show you, Jesus chose Cephas and Andrew first, then John and James. Now you say that I add words, but read these words from G-Matthew which tell us that Simon was FIRST disciples, and Mark and Matthew tell us that he chose Simon AFTER the Baptist was arrested.
Ready? :-
Matthew...... The names of the 12 apostles are these: First, Simon, the one called Peter, and Andrew his brother; James the son of Zebʹe·dee and John his brother; 3 Philip and Bar·tholʹo·mew; Thomas and Matthew the tax collector; James the son of Al·phaeʹus; Thad·daeʹus; 4 Simon the Ca·na·naeʹan; and Judas Is·carʹi·ot, who later betrayed him.

I think Gospels are witness testimonies by people and God has guided those people.

Sadly, only one.......
And this Thread is here to show that although Jesus was very real, the words are not divine and indisputable which opens up the way for the revisionist and progressive churches decicated to all people regardless of sexuality, race, gender, colour and more.

That's what this is about!

oldbadger · Jul 7, 2020

1213 said:
I think Gospels are witness testimonies by people and God has guided those people.

Please read:-
Mark: {7:10} For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death: {7:11} But ye say, If
a man shall say to his father or mother, [It is] Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; [he shall be free. ]{7:12} And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother; {7:13} Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

Well? Do you believe in putting children to death?

PruePhillip · Jul 8, 2020

oldbadger said:
So you could not give me that list of gentiles who loved Jesus. OK.

The what?
The story about Jesus is about a man who stood up with the Baptist against Temple corruption, oppression and hypocrisy.
What people made of it later is up to them.

That's the Marxist Jesus. Yes, he protested the temple markets and he called out hypocrisy. But it went no further than
that. Jesus' mission wasn't to make a better temple, or to help the poor. His mission was to preach the Gospel.

oldbadger · Jul 8, 2020

PruePhillip said:
That's the Marxist Jesus.

Not true. Carl Marx did not believe in Jesus.
Who has been indoctrinating you?

Jesus wanted the laws to be upheld, and that included the poor laws.

Yes, he protested the temple markets and he called out hypocrisy. But it went no further than that.

It went a lot further than that. His call was the call of Hosea..... Let's see how he condemned the Priesthood and its money-go-round Temple.

Matthew {9:13} But go ye and learn what [that] meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice:

Matthew {12:7} But if ye had known what [this] meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice,

Matthew {23:23} Woe unto you, scribes
and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier [matters] of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have
done, and not to leave the other undone. {23:24} [Ye] blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel.{23:25} Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess. {23:26}
{23:27} Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees,
hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited epulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead [men’s] bones, and of all uncleanness. {23:28} Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are
full of hypocrisy and iniquity. {23:29} Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous, ......................
...... and much more, Prue.

Jesus' mission wasn't to make a better temple,

Jesus had forsaken The Great Temple, its pagan coinage, it's corrupt greedy priesthood. So I agree with you there.

or to help the poor.

Outrageous suggestion of yours. Dreadful.
You should read the poor laws that Jesus wanted to be upheld, with all the others.
What Church do you belong to? Just asking.

His mission was to preach the Gospel.

I'm not sure that you know what that was, now.

PruePhillip · Jul 8, 2020

oldbadger said:
Not true. Carl Marx did not believe in Jesus.
Who has been indoctrinating you?
Jesus wanted the laws to be upheld, and that included the poor laws.
It went a lot further than that. His call was the call of Hosea..... Let's see how he condemned the Priesthood and its money-go-round Temple.
Matthew {9:13} But go ye and learn what [that] meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice:
Matthew {12:7} But if ye had known what [this] meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice,
Matthew {23:23} Woe unto you, scribes
and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier [matters] of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have
done, and not to leave the other undone. {23:24} [Ye] blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel.{23:25} Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess. {23:26}
{23:27} Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees,
hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited epulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead [men’s] bones, and of all uncleanness. {23:28} Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are
full of hypocrisy and iniquity. {23:29} Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous, ......................
...... and much more, Prue.
Jesus had forsaken The Great Temple, its pagan coinage, it's corrupt greedy priesthood. So I agree with you there.
Outrageous suggestion of yours. Dreadful.
You should read the poor laws that Jesus wanted to be upheld, with all the others.
What Church do you belong to? Just asking.
I'm not sure that you know what that was, now.

For sure, any "poor laws" are fine with Jesus. But His mission wasn't to help the poor. He did many miracles
but that was to demonstrate the Messiah. He said you will have the poor always, and he gave no money to
them. Also, Jesus had an issue with the pride of poor people.
Some people adopt that old "liberation theology" attitude to Jesus. He came to help the poor, to challenge
the rich, confront authority etc.. You can make that case but it's not the whole story.
Jesus' doctrine would make a better world. We all understand that much. But number one, he didn't expect
to change the world, and number two, he came to suffer and die as Psalm 22 and 69, and Isaiah 53 tell us.

oldbadger · Jul 8, 2020

PruePhillip said:
For sure, any "poor laws" are fine with Jesus. But His mission wasn't to help the poor.

You do not know the poor laws! That's for sure!
Jesus wanted all the OT laws returned, other than the sacrificial ones. He daid so.

He did many miracles
but that was to demonstrate the Messiah.

You think his miracles were a showtime demonstration? Wow!

He said you will have the poor always, and he gave no money to
them.

He was speaking directly to the hypocrite and traitor, Judas Iscariot! And you use those words to comfort your lack of care for the poor? Like Judas?
You misquote Jesus, I'm afraid, and misconstrue his meaning.

Here it is.......
John {12:4} Then saith one of his disciples, Judas Iscariot, Simon’s [son,] which should betray him, {12:5} Why was not this ointment sold for three hundred pence, and given to the
poor? {12:6} This he said, not that he cared for the poor; but because he was a thief, and had the bag, and bare what was put therein. {12:7} Then said Jesus, Let her alone: against the day of my burying hath she kept this. {12:8} For
the poor always ye have with you; but me ye have not always.

Also, Jesus had an issue with the pride of poor people.
Some people adopt that old "liberation theology" attitude to Jesus.

You should read what Jesus said, maybe?

He came to help the poor, to challenge
the rich, confront authority etc.. You can make that case but it's not the whole story.

Me? I'm a Deist..... but I know a bit about Jesus.

Jesus' doctrine would make a better world. We all understand that much.

You do? Really?

But number one, he didn't expect
to change the world, and number two, he came to suffer and die as Psalm 22 and 69, and Isaiah 53 tell us.

You know what Jesus expected?

Hey! Time for some reading, I think....

Mark 10:21} Then Jesus beholding him loved him, and said unto him, One thing thou lackest:
go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me. {10:22} And he was sad at that saying, and went away grieved: for he had great possessions.

Matthew {19:21} Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go [and] sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come [and] follow me. {19:22} But when the young man heard that saying, he
went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions.

Luke {6:20} And he lifted up his eyes on his disciples, and said, Blessed [be ye] poor: for yours is the kingdom of God.

Luke {14:13} But when thou makest a feast, call the poor, the maimed, the lame, the blind: {14:14} And thou shalt be blessed; for they cannot recompense thee: for thou shalt be
recompensed at the resurrection of the just.

Luke {18:22} Now when Jesus heard these
things, he said unto him, Yet lackest thou one thing: sell all that thou hast, and distribute unto the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me. {18:23} And when he heard this, he was very sorrowful: for he was very
rich. {18:24} And when Jesus saw that he was very sorrowful, he said, How hardly shall they that have riches enter into the kingdom of God!

oldbadger · Jul 8, 2020

PruePhillip said:
Also, Jesus had an issue with the pride of poor people.
Some people adopt that old "liberation theology" attitude to Jesus. He came to help the poor, to challenge the rich, confront authority etc..

It was some time later that I realised that you had spun your faith in to some kind of a right-wing political religion.

What goofery is that about? Do you think that Heaven is for Republicans or something like that?

oldbadger · Jul 8, 2020

Day 6
Contradiction 6

Did John the Baptist know Jesus well, or not?

Luke tells us that unborn John knew unborn Jesus in their wombs and that John was joyful when they came close to.
John tells us that the Baptist recognised Jesus on sight as the Messiah and Son of God. At Jesus's baptism, John heard God calling out to acknowledge his son.
Matthew tells us that John did not want to baptise Jesus, knowing who he was.

But later on, Luke tells us that John sent his disciples to enquire, 'Are you really the one?'

This, like most contradictions, is well known, but since this thread wants to compile the lot.... here we go.....:-
exhibts:-
Luke {1:44} For, lo, as soon as the voice of thy salutation sounded in mine ears, the babe leaped in my womb for joy.

John {1:29} The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world. {1:30} This is he of whom I said, After me
cometh a man which is preferred before me: for he was before me.

Matthew {3:13} Then cometh Jesus from Galilee to Jordan unto John, to be baptized of him. {3:14} But John forbad him, saying, I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me?

Mark {1:11} And there came a voice from heaven, [saying,] Thou art my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

Luke {7:19} And John calling [unto him] two of his disciples sent [them] to Jesus, saying, Art thou he that should come? or look we for another? {7:20} When the men were come unto him, they said, John Baptist hath sent us unto thee, saying, Art thou he that should come? or look we for another?

P.S.
Previously
Contradiction 1 Post 1
Contradiction 2 Post 26
Contradiction 3 Post 77
Contradiction 4 Post 104
Contradiction 5 Post 127

PruePhillip · Jul 9, 2020

oldbadger said:
It was some time later that I realised that you had spun your faith in to some kind of a right-wing political religion.

What goofery is that about? Do you think that Heaven is for Republicans or something like that?

Many of the people who rejected Jesus (ie his own townsfolk) were not rich. It is not
recorded that Jesus gave money to the poor. Jesus' sermons on the "poor" were about
spiritual poverty, not material poverty. Jesus said "You will have the poor with you always"
which means the is no end to poverty - ever. And in leaving this world he left the poor
exactly where he found them - poor.

I am Australian. Nothing to do with Republicans. But one point - if Democrats are for the
poor then why are Democrat areas the poorest in America? How does welfare really help
poor people? How does business bashing help poor people? What happened to the "War
on poverty"?

PruePhillip · Jul 9, 2020

oldbadger said:
Day 6
Contradiction 6

Did John the Baptist know Jesus well, or not?

Luke tells us that unborn John knew unborn Jesus in their wombs and that John was joyful when they came close to.
John tells us that the Baptist recognised Jesus on sight as the Messiah and Son of God. At Jesus's baptism, John heard God calling out to acknowledge his son.
Matthew tells us that John did not want to baptise Jesus, knowing who he was.

But later on, Luke tells us that John sent his disciples to enquire, 'Are you really the one?'

This, like most contradictions, is well known, but since this thread wants to compile the lot.... here we go.....:-
exhibts:-
Luke {1:44} For, lo, as soon as the voice of thy salutation sounded in mine ears, the babe leaped in my womb for joy.

John {1:29} The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world. {1:30} This is he of whom I said, After me
cometh a man which is preferred before me: for he was before me.

Matthew {3:13} Then cometh Jesus from Galilee to Jordan unto John, to be baptized of him. {3:14} But John forbad him, saying, I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me?

Mark {1:11} And there came a voice from heaven, [saying,] Thou art my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

Luke {7:19} And John calling [unto him] two of his disciples sent [them] to Jesus, saying, Art thou he that should come? or look we for another? {7:20} When the men were come unto him, they said, John Baptist hath sent us unto thee, saying, Art thou he that should come? or look we for another?

P.S.
Previously
Contradiction 1 Post 1
Contradiction 2 Post 26
Contradiction 3 Post 77
Contradiction 4 Post 104
Contradiction 5 Post 127

APPARENT contradictions. Take the time to figure out what the bible is saying.

PruePhillip · Jul 9, 2020

oldbadger said:
You do not know the poor laws! That's for sure!
Jesus wanted all the OT laws returned, other than the sacrificial ones. He daid so.

You think his miracles were a showtime demonstration? Wow!

He was speaking directly to the hypocrite and traitor, Judas Iscariot! And you use those words to comfort your lack of care for the poor? Like Judas?
You misquote Jesus, I'm afraid, and misconstrue his meaning.

Here it is.......
John {12:4} Then saith one of his disciples, Judas Iscariot, Simon’s [son,] which should betray him, {12:5} Why was not this ointment sold for three hundred pence, and given to the
poor? {12:6} This he said, not that he cared for the poor; but because he was a thief, and had the bag, and bare what was put therein. {12:7} Then said Jesus, Let her alone: against the day of my burying hath she kept this. {12:8} For
the poor always ye have with you; but me ye have not always.

You should read what Jesus said, maybe?

Me? I'm a Deist..... but I know a bit about Jesus.

You do? Really?

You know what Jesus expected?

Hey! Time for some reading, I think....

Mark 10:21} Then Jesus beholding him loved him, and said unto him, One thing thou lackest:
go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me. {10:22} And he was sad at that saying, and went away grieved: for he had great possessions.

Matthew {19:21} Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go [and] sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come [and] follow me. {19:22} But when the young man heard that saying, he
went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions.

Luke {6:20} And he lifted up his eyes on his disciples, and said, Blessed [be ye] poor: for yours is the kingdom of God.

Luke {14:13} But when thou makest a feast, call the poor, the maimed, the lame, the blind: {14:14} And thou shalt be blessed; for they cannot recompense thee: for thou shalt be
recompensed at the resurrection of the just.

Luke {18:22} Now when Jesus heard these
things, he said unto him, Yet lackest thou one thing: sell all that thou hast, and distribute unto the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me. {18:23} And when he heard this, he was very sorrowful: for he was very
rich. {18:24} And when Jesus saw that he was very sorrowful, he said, How hardly shall they that have riches enter into the kingdom of God!

Sure, no problem there. Give your wealth to the poor - but the mission you are embarking on
is about helping the poor in spirit, those seeking for the kingdom.

oldbadger · Jul 9, 2020

PruePhillip said:
Many of the people who rejected Jesus (ie his own townsfolk) were not rich. It is not
recorded that Jesus gave money to the poor. Jesus' sermons on the "poor" were about
spiritual poverty, not material poverty. Jesus said "You will have the poor with you always"
which means the is no end to poverty - ever. And in leaving this world he left the poor
exactly where he found them - poor.

I am Australian. Nothing to do with Republicans. But one point - if Democrats are for the
poor then why are Democrat areas the poorest in America? How does welfare really help
poor people? How does business bashing help poor people? What happened to the "War
on poverty"?

You an Oz? Sorry....

Mind you, it could have been worse, I could have suggested you were a kiwi!

The above is not anything to do with what Jesus was after. So many people manipulate their faiths and religions to fit with their wishes and over time generations grow up to believe them over all.

If you are interested I will post up some of the Mosaic laws that Jesus wanted upheld.

You'll find that Jesus's answer to Judas is misquoted again and again so that the rich can turn their backs on the needy and still keep holy!

But it's just jumble goofery....

oldbadger · Jul 9, 2020

PruePhillip said:
APPARENT contradictions. Take the time to figure out what the bible is saying.

No.... I've spent years thinking about how folks write different accounts, and when Matthew and Luke need to copy another account, and when John doesn't even know when Jesus cleared the Temple, then it's time to start thinking about human errors and not Divine messages.

oldbadger · Jul 9, 2020

PruePhillip said:
Sure, no problem there. Give your wealth to the poor - but the mission you are embarking on
is about helping the poor in spirit, those seeking for the kingdom.

No.. the mission I am on is to learn as much about the real Jesus as I can.
Moses was building an unbeatable nation of people, not a bunch of spiritual zombies.
Every single law was for strength, security, safety, health, development and cohesion. Not one is different to that.

Those contradicting Gospels!

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