Murder is not allowed in the Bible. I think it means also that babies should not be murdered.
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Why do Christians oppose abortion?
- Thread starter Jeff_gummy_bears
- Start date
Murder is not allowed in the Bible. I think it means also that babies should not be murdered.
ManSinha
Well-Known Member
Deuteronomy 22:20-21
But if this thing be true, and the tokens of virginity be not found for the damsel then they shall bring out the damsel to the door of her father's house, and the men of her city shall stone her with stones that she die.
Leviticus 24:10-16
Anyone who blasphemes the LORD’s name must be stoned to death
Exodus 22:19
“Whoever sacrifices to any god, except the Lord alone, shall be killed.
2 Chronicles 15:12-13 (kill anyone of another religion)
“Everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman.
Deuteronomy 18:20-22
Any prophet who claims to give a message from another god or who falsely claims to speak for me must die.’
Deuteronomy 17:2-5
Suppose a man or woman among you, in one of your towns that the LORD your God is giving you, has done evil in the sight of the LORD your God and has violated the covenant by serving other gods or by worshipping the sun, the moon, or any of the forces of heaven, which I have strictly forbidden. If it is true that this detestable thing has been done in Israel, then that man or woman must be taken to the gates of the town and stoned to death.
Ezekiel 9:5-7
“Then I heard the LORD say to the other men, “Follow him through the city and kill everyone whose forehead is not marked. Show no mercy; have no pity! Kill them all – old and young, girls and women and little children. But do not touch anyone with the mark. “Fill its courtyards with the bodies of those you kill! Go!” So they went throughout the city and did as they were told.”
1 Samuel 15:2-3
This is what the Lord of hosts has to say: ‘I will punish what Amalek did to Israel when he barred his way as he was coming up from Egypt. Go, now, attack Amalek, and deal with him and all that he has under the ban. Do not spare him, but kill men and women, children and infants, oxen and sheep, camels and asses.’
(Jeremiah 51:20-26)
“You are my battle-axe and sword,” says the LORD. “With you I will shatter nations and destroy many kingdoms. With you I will shatter armies, destroying the horse and rider, the chariot and charioteer. With you I will shatter men and women, old people and children, young men and maidens.
Deuteronomy 13:7-12
“If your own full brother, or your son or daughter, or your beloved wife, or your intimate friend, entices you secretly to serve other gods, whom you and your fathers have not known, gods of any other nations, near at hand or far away, from one end of the earth to the other: do not yield to him or listen to him, nor look with pity upon him, to spare or shield him, but kill him. Your hand shall be the first raised to slay him; the rest of the people shall join in with you. You shall stone him to death.
PearlSeeker
Well-Known Member
For some Christians most people go to purgatory to complete the unfinished lessons (similar to paying the karmic debt in the next life cycle)...
Abortion is ending an innocent life that only started. In principle it's wrong. It's also an infringement upon free will. The baby had no choice. Heaven is heaven for someone who wants to go there. We need experience to grow in love. A fruit can be picked when it's ripe.
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News to me.
Eyes to See
Well-Known Member
A new human comes into existence at conception. I have had talks with people that say that they don't know when a fetus becomes a human. I simply say well, take a DNA sample from a dead fetus without letting a scientist know where it is from and let them do a study and see what species it is. You know that it is human. A human does not evolve into a human after conception but is a human at conception.
Then I have had the people that say, well, if killing the fetus, or the cells that are developing into the fetus is murder, then if I comb my hair and some skin cells fall out I am murdering them. I then reply, you still exist even if you lose skin cells, blood, even if organs are removed. You are still you, and you have not killed yourself or another human. And then they reply, then if you kill a few lumps of cells that make up a human fetus you are not killing a human either. I then answer by stating that the difference is they are snuffing out the entire DNA chain that makes up that human.
Now in the Bible it does talk about abortion. Someone earlier said that a person was given a choice as to whether a person was to get recompense if someone caused his wife to abort and the abortion caused the death of the unborn child. But that is not at all what the scripture really states. Here is the full law concerning abortion in this instance:
“If men should struggle with each other and they hurt a pregnant woman and she gives birth prematurely but no fatality results, the offender must pay the damages imposed on him by the husband of the woman; and he must pay it through the judges. But if a fatality does occur, then you must give life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burn for burn, wound for wound, blow for blow."-Exodus 21:22-25.
Notice, there is no allowance for the fact that if the victim wanted recompense. This was the law it was to be enforced. Also notice, if the aborted child died God said that life for life was to be given. That is, in God's eyes since a human life was taken, the killer forfeited his life as justice. That is God considered the unborn child alive and considered killing it murder, and considered it grave enough that the person who took the unborn child's life himself forfeited his right to keep living. He was to be put to death.
"If a fatality does occur, then you MUST give life for life."
Then I have had the people that say, well, if killing the fetus, or the cells that are developing into the fetus is murder, then if I comb my hair and some skin cells fall out I am murdering them. I then reply, you still exist even if you lose skin cells, blood, even if organs are removed. You are still you, and you have not killed yourself or another human. And then they reply, then if you kill a few lumps of cells that make up a human fetus you are not killing a human either. I then answer by stating that the difference is they are snuffing out the entire DNA chain that makes up that human.
Now in the Bible it does talk about abortion. Someone earlier said that a person was given a choice as to whether a person was to get recompense if someone caused his wife to abort and the abortion caused the death of the unborn child. But that is not at all what the scripture really states. Here is the full law concerning abortion in this instance:
“If men should struggle with each other and they hurt a pregnant woman and she gives birth prematurely but no fatality results, the offender must pay the damages imposed on him by the husband of the woman; and he must pay it through the judges. But if a fatality does occur, then you must give life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burn for burn, wound for wound, blow for blow."-Exodus 21:22-25.
Notice, there is no allowance for the fact that if the victim wanted recompense. This was the law it was to be enforced. Also notice, if the aborted child died God said that life for life was to be given. That is, in God's eyes since a human life was taken, the killer forfeited his life as justice. That is God considered the unborn child alive and considered killing it murder, and considered it grave enough that the person who took the unborn child's life himself forfeited his right to keep living. He was to be put to death.
"If a fatality does occur, then you MUST give life for life."
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So in identical twins, is it that each one is half a human, or is one is fully human and the other not?
Eyes to See
Well-Known Member
I am an identical twin. My brother and I have the same DNA as well. We are clones of each other. We are both living human beings.
That is also why even if you make a clone of another human that clone is its own individual. It is different and will act different and will be different from its clone.
And here is the scripture, if you really didn’t know:
You shall not murder.
Ex. 20:13
Bible tells murder is not accepted, but death penalty is not the same as murder.
You shall not murder.
Ex. 20:13
Murder is unlawful killing.
IndigoChild5559
Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
If you are Jewish, abortion can also be a sin, although it is not murder. If you are orthodox, you are supposed to go to a Jewish court and get permission before you get an abortion -- the court will rule whether it is necessary or not.
In my opinion, I think there is a big difference between a first trimester abortion, and an abortion in say for example, the last two weeks of pregnancy. Obviously in the latter, the child can survive outside the womb. The only difference is an abortion is forced and a birth is natural. It makes no sense to me at all that the exact same being is a child if it is birthed naturally, but only a glob of cells if aborted. IOW I think these late stage abortions are absolutely horrendous, and I'd like to see laws passed against them except when the mother's life is at stake.
I believe that is in line with Roe v Wade. IOW we need to enforce Row -- it's not at this point.
In my opinion, I think there is a big difference between a first trimester abortion, and an abortion in say for example, the last two weeks of pregnancy. Obviously in the latter, the child can survive outside the womb. The only difference is an abortion is forced and a birth is natural. It makes no sense to me at all that the exact same being is a child if it is birthed naturally, but only a glob of cells if aborted. IOW I think these late stage abortions are absolutely horrendous, and I'd like to see laws passed against them except when the mother's life is at stake.
I believe that is in line with Roe v Wade. IOW we need to enforce Row -- it's not at this point.
I was talking about the Bible as a whole.
You can find a verse or two in the Bible to support any position, but AFAICT, it praises murder more often than it condemns it.
GardenLady
Active Member
@dejee wrote: Death is never spoken of as a gateway to another life.
When on the cross, Jesus told the "good thief" that "Today, you will be with me in paradise." Since they were both on crosses at the time, and the culmination of Jesus' mission was his death and resurrection (and not survival of crucifixion), it seems highly unlikely that Jesus was envisioning any other entry in paradise than that following death.
When on the cross, Jesus told the "good thief" that "Today, you will be with me in paradise." Since they were both on crosses at the time, and the culmination of Jesus' mission was his death and resurrection (and not survival of crucifixion), it seems highly unlikely that Jesus was envisioning any other entry in paradise than that following death.
metis
aged ecumenical anthropologist
"Murder" is a legal term, thus abortion is not "murder" in a country whereas it's legal. So, a better way of saying this would be "Abortion is an act of killing an unborn child".
Sorry, I don’t see any intelligent reason to believe that.
This life is not meaningless, it is our one and only chance to store up treasures (merit) in Heaven. Even if we were to accept your assumption that unbaptized infants are granted the beatific vision upon their deaths it remains the fact that they were unjustly denied the opportunities for grace that would have been open to them with a full life. Heaven is experienced to the degree of your merit. By abortion you deny any chance for the aborted to merit and grow in sanctity.
What is meaningless in eternity are the riches of this world. Money, carnal pleasure, comfort, position and the respect of others do not mean anything to God. Indeed all the above unless properly ordered are enemies of salvation.
Ultimately, what condemns a person to Hell isn't so much his sins but his refusal to avail himself of God's mercy.
There is no escape. One way or another sin must be dealt with. Either you acknowledge the evil you have committed and seek absolution and penance, or you cling to your sins and suffer their due punishment in eternity. Hell is eternal because death fixes the will. If you will not repent in this life you will not repent in the next. Thus Hell is necessary if God is just.
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You're half right. Purgatory is a state where souls suffer expiation still owed to God for their (forgiven) sins. It's a place where you pay off debts incurred for sins for which you have been absolved but have yet to make sufficient satisfaction.
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I'm sorry Metis, but this is a silly argument. When Cain murdered Able there was no state. The sin of murder needs no civil authority to define it. And even if you insist on avoiding the M-word based on this silly argument it remains nonetheless true that no government, court or any legal body whatsoever can give you the "right" to take human life.
PearlSeeker
Well-Known Member
Purgatory, as the name implies, is a process of purification (not punishing or expiration). You have to be enough transformed (gain virtues and clean away vices) to enter heaven. You have to make up for the missed opportunities to do this in earthly life (debt created by sin).
1030 All who die in God's grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven. (Catechism)