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Foreign students must leave the U.S. if colleges go online only

Stevicus

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
ICE: Foreign Students Must Leave The U.S. If Their Colleges Go Online-Only This Fall

Foreign students attending U.S. colleges that will operate entirely online this fall semester cannot remain in the country to do so, according to new regulations released Monday by U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement.

As college students across the United States and around the world contemplate what their upcoming semester might look like, the federal guidance limits options for international students and leaves them with an uncomfortable choice: attend in-person classes during a pandemic or take them online from another country.

And for students enrolled in schools that have already announced plans to operate fully online, there is no choice. Under the new rules, the State Department will not issue them visas, and U.S. Customs and Border Protection will not allow them to enter the country.

"Active students currently in the United States enrolled in such programs must depart the country or take other measures, such as transferring to a school with in-person instruction to remain in lawful status," read a release from ICE's Student and Exchange Visitor Program. "If not, they may face immigration consequences including, but not limited to, the initiation of removal proceedings."
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I suppose they can still take their classes online, although I'm not sure what the point is in making them leave the country.

I guess a lot of schools and colleges will be shifting to online only education. I can see where some classes would still need some kind of hands-on presence in person. Like a science class with a lab requirement.

Is traditional education going the way of the dinosaur?
 
Quintessence

Quintessence

Consults with Trees
Staff member
Premium Member
Stevicus said:
Is traditional education going the way of the dinosaur?
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No.

Speaking as someone who works directly in higher education, students and their families overwhelmingly want the traditional college experience. The challenge is for institutions to adapt to the current situation without much in the way of federal guidance or support.

NPR does a good job of presenting news in an unbiased fashion, so maybe this isn't apparent on the front of it, but this rule change isn't really about higher education at all. It's about immigrants. The current administration is using the pandemic as an excuse to cut off immigration, which is bad for this country.
 
Shaul

Shaul

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Stevicus said:
ICE: Foreign Students Must Leave The U.S. If Their Colleges Go Online-Only This Fall



I suppose they can still take their classes online, although I'm not sure what the point is in making them leave the country.
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The point is you seem to have the question inverted. The question ought to be what is the point of letting them stay if they aren’t attending classes? Coming to the country is a limited resource and a privilege. If they are here on a student visa then that is justified by, you know, being a student.
 
sayak83

sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Shaul said:
The point is you seem to have the question inverted. The question ought to be what is the point of letting them stay if they aren’t attending classes? Coming to the country is a limited resource and a privilege. If they are here on a student visa then that is justified by, you know, being a student.
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Actually they pay, often a lot. It's not a privilege. It's a purchase.
 
Shaul

Shaul

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
sayak83 said:
Actually they pay, often a lot. It's not a privilege. It's a purchase.
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I never said they didn’t pay to go to college. I wrote that being in the country is a privilege. Two very different things.
 
Wu Wei

Wu Wei

ursus senum severiorum and ex-Bisy Backson
Shaul said:
The point is you seem to have the question inverted. The question ought to be what is the point of letting them stay if they aren’t attending classes? Coming to the country is a limited resource and a privilege. If they are here on a student visa then that is justified by, you know, being a student.
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But they would be attending classes, just online. The statement is they must go if they're taking only online classes, not that they are not attending classes.

Now, China is 13 hours different, so go home to China and take your 2:00PM US time class a 3AM China time...oh wait...they can't return to China, The US won't fly there and China won't let them land...so what do they do. But wait, China has restricted all computer access so they could not take their online class anyway. And that is just one country.

Many of these kids work just as hard, and some harder for their degree, they have gone 1, 2, 3,....8 years to get it and now....thanks for your time and cash...but sorry, you have to go.....try again later. And what about grad students that are also doing research and some would be teaching those online classes. But their graduate classes may be online. So they go, you then lose some of those online classes that US students need to take.

Colleges in the US have opened up a lot to US students in the coming semester, and that is a good thing, but it is due to the number of students from foreign countries who cannot get here now due to the pandemic, and yes the lions share of those would be from China. But those already here, that would be taking classes (online) should be allowed to see their degrees through....besides...some of them can't go home (see China) so what then...
 
Shaul

Shaul

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Wu Wei said:
But they would be attending classes, just online. The statement is they mist go if they're taking only online classes, not that they are not attending classes.

Now, China is 13 hours different, so go home to China and take your 2:00PM US time class a 3AM China time...oh wait...they can't return to China, The US won't fly there and China won't et them land...so what do they do. But wait, China has restricted all computer access so they could not take their online class anyway. And that is just one country.

Many of these kids work just as hard, an some harder for their degree, they have gone 1, 2, 3,....8 years to get it and now....thanks for your time and cash...but sorry, you have to go.....try again later. And what about grad students that are also doing research and some would be teaching those online classes. But their graduate classes may be online. So they go, you then lose some of those online classes that US students need to take.

Colleges in the US have opened up a lot to US students in the coming semester, and that is a good thing, but it is due to the number of students form foreign countries who cannot get here now due to the pandemic, and yes the lions share of those would be from China. But those already here, that would be taking classes (online) should be allowed to see their degrees through
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If they are only attending on line then there is no justification or need for them to be physically in the country. And therefore no need for a visa. Worse still such a non-justified visa prevents given one to someone else that has a more genuine need to physically be in the country.

There is nothing that would prevent these students from returning once in person classes resume.

Spare me the sob stories. The pandemic has caused untold trouble for most everybody. They can suck it up like the rest of us.
 
Polymath257

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
Shaul said:
The point is you seem to have the question inverted. The question ought to be what is the point of letting them stay if they aren’t attending classes? Coming to the country is a limited resource and a privilege. If they are here on a student visa then that is justified by, you know, being a student.
Click to expand...

And if they are taking online classes, they *are* being a student. They are also learning about our culture, which promotes understanding both ways. That *should* be a net benefit to us, except for the fact that our government so often works against our ideals.
 
Wu Wei

Wu Wei

ursus senum severiorum and ex-Bisy Backson
Shaul said:
If they are only attending on line then there is no justification or need for them to be physically in the country. And therefore no need for a visa. Worse still such a non-justified visa prevents given one to someone else that has a more genuine need to physically be in the country.

There is nothing that would prevent these students from returning once in person classes resume.

Spare me the sob stories. The pandemic has caused untold trouble for most everybody. They can suck it up like the rest of us.
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The reality is what I said, it is not a sob story, but calling it that is a convenient way to dismiss it. So what about the online classes that will vanish with the foreign country grad students, who actually teach them, go away? seems like less opportunity for online classes there

And foreign grad students aside, your argument does not hold up, if the foreign students return to their country and are able to continue online classes....where do these folks with a more genuine need get the opportunity to take a class. And what defines a more genuine need? If the students already here could return to their country to renew their visas and then return here there would be no problem at all, they would have done it already. So those in said country could not get here either due to the same restrictions

And these students are not here illegally by choice, they are here because they can't return to their home country to renew their visas due to restrictions, due to the pandemic, and that is a requirement of renewal. And some of those that can return, could not get back here for classes

And what about grants that college get, via their foreign grad students. Do these grants stay with the college, or do they go away and need to be repaid because the student it was granted to i no longer there
 
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Quintessence

Quintessence

Consults with Trees
Staff member
Premium Member
Shaul said:
If they are only attending on line then there is no justification or need for them to be physically in the country.
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May I ask how familiar you are with the college experience? Have you been to a 4-year college or university yourself? I ask because the justification and need for it is pretty obvious if you have, and that's without considering how online/distance course delivery is actually going to work at many institutions.

To speak on that particular consideration though, universities make a distinction between online courses and distance education courses in terms of course delivery and design.

Distance education courses are designed in a way that accommodates learners regardless of where they are located geographically. These courses may or may not be online - there are other ways to do distance learning, such by phone or by mail - but these days they usually are.

Online courses are courses taught using web/internet-based resources. They may or may not accommodate distance learners. For example, an online course may require students to attend a livestream lecture at a specific time or utilize on-campus testing centers for proctored exams.

Put simply, a course being online does not mean it can be taken outside of the country. Being off-campus also fundamentally changes the college experience that most students want. Think about why most domestic students want to study abroad. Hint: it's not really about the courses. It's about travel, and the international experience. Cutting international students off from that is going to drop enrollment even further than it already has.
 
metis

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
I taught an anthropology course on-line for 7 years, and it's a challenge let me tell ya. It worked but not without some "hiccups" at times.

While I'm at it, since the covid rate in China now is much lower than here in the States, and because of Trump's repeated hate-filled comments on China, the denial of visa's by this administration is just a reflection of his blatant xenophobia in order to appeal top his base. Of course his "true believers" will deny this.
 
Shaul

Shaul

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Polymath257 said:
And if they are taking online classes, they *are* being a student. They are also learning about our culture, which promotes understanding both ways. That *should* be a net benefit to us, except for the fact that our government so often works against our ideals.
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Just being any kind of student is not enough. They must be taking classes in person. This is quite clear in student visa applications. To which all of those being affected agreed. If for any reason the student is no longer physically attending classes they are subject to having their visa revoked. It’s that simple.
 
Shaul

Shaul

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Quintessence said:
May I ask how familiar you are with the college experience? Have you been to a 4-year college or university yourself? I ask because the justification and need for it is pretty obvious if you have, and that's without considering how online/distance course delivery is actually going to work at many institutions.

To speak on that particular consideration though, universities make a distinction between online courses and distance education courses in terms of course delivery and design.

Distance education courses are designed in a way that accommodates learners regardless of where they are located geographically. These courses may or may not be online - there are other ways to do distance learning, such by phone or by mail - but these days they usually are.

Online courses are courses taught using web/internet-based resources. They may or may not accommodate distance learners. For example, an online course may require students to attend a livestream lecture at a specific time or utilize on-campus testing centers for proctored exams.

Put simply, a course being online does not mean it can be taken outside of the country. Being off-campus also fundamentally changes the college experience that most students want. Think about why most domestic students want to study abroad. Hint: it's not really about the courses. It's about travel, and the international experience. Cutting international students off from that is going to drop enrollment even further than it already has.
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None of this is in any way relevant. The requirements for a student visa are a matter of law and regulation. It is quite clear that physically attending classes are a requirement for maintaining the visa. On line classes are not sufficient, the students must attend the classes in person.
 
Shaul

Shaul

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Wu Wei said:
The reality is what I said, it is not a sob story, but calling it that is a convenient way to dismiss it. So what about the online classes that will vanish with the foreign country grad students, who actually teach them, go away? seems like less opportunity for online classes there

And foreign grad students aside, your argument does not hold up, if the foreign students return to their country and are able to continue online classes....where do these folks with a more genuine need get the opportunity to take a class. And what defines a more genuine need? If the students already here could return to their country to renew their visas and then return here there would be no problem at all, they would have done it already. So those in said country could not get here either due to the same restrictions

And these students are not here illegally by choice, they are here because they can't return to their home country to renew their visas due to restrictions, due to the pandemic, and that is a requirement of renewal. And some of those that can return, could not get back here for classes

And what about grants that college get, via their foreign grad students. Do these grants stay with the college, or do they go away and need to be repaid because the student it was granted to i no longer there
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What is being dismissed is irrelevant sophistry and emotional pablum. The law is quite clear. To maintain a student visa in person attendance is required. These students knew when they got their visas that if they no longer attended classes in person their visas were subject to being revoked.

Any financial entanglements between these students and the institutions they were attending are between them. Such students can and should pursue whatever financial remedies they choose, via courts if necessary. Those are irrelevant to their visa status.
 
Wu Wei

Wu Wei

ursus senum severiorum and ex-Bisy Backson
Shaul said:
What is being dismissed is irrelevant sophistry and emotional pablum. The law is quite clear. To maintain a student visa in person attendance is required. These students knew when they got their visas that if they no longer attended classes in person their visas were subject to being revoked.

Any financial entanglements between these students and the institutions they were attending are between them. Such students can and should pursue whatever financial remedies they choose, via courts if necessary. Those are irrelevant to their visa status.
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irrelevant sophistry and emotional pablum...Don't see how those apply to what I posted...and I am assuming you know what those mean so to answer....Nope not trying to deceive anyone and if you call truth and reality pablum...there is a problem here...nice words though to try and derail, dismiss, avoid questions and redirect away from the reality of the situation.

Interesting avoidance there especially the questions I asked. You seem to be under the impression that the students intentionally let their visas expire and decided to stay illegally. This is very far from reality as to what happened.

As stated, these students are not trying to circumvent the law, they are not ignoring visa rules.

Here's a rather relevant question to this discussion.

Do you know what t takes for a student to renew their visa?

I'm guessing you do not, and since it appears you did not throughly read my previous posts, let me explain it to you again. To renew their visas they have to return to their country of origin. Many students have tried to return to their country to renew their visas, but they can't, especially Chinese students. Can't get a flight to China from the US at the moment, and even if you could, China would not let you land. Other countries have similar issues. students do know the rules, student have tired, but under the current restriction due to the pandemic, they cannot renew their visas, no matter how hard they try

Which brings me back to another question I asked you that you seem to have missed.

For students that cannot get flights home, and/or cannot land even if they could, what to suggest?

They are in limbo, what happens to them?

These are not illegal aliens that snuck into the country, these are not people who got their visa and intentionally let it expire. Most have tried to renew their visas and most have been told by the universities/colleges there is nothing they can do at the moment since they cannot return to their home countries to renew their visas, which is required. And many colleges have told them that they will be ok as long as they don't leave the country.

And you completely missed understood the "financial entanglements", since there are none that apply to the students, and you seem to think there are

Graduate students apply for grants to assist the college/university. The grant is given to the student and it is used for the research that the college/university is doing. If that student is gone, and the grant is for that student. The student has no obligation to repay, the college is responsible for that. Now does the granting organization ask for the unused money back or do they just say the heck with it, you can keep the cash...I'm guessing keeping the cash is not an option and this does not fall on the student. The US College takes the hit.

I await your response....
 
Stevicus

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Shaul said:
The point is you seem to have the question inverted. The question ought to be what is the point of letting them stay if they aren’t attending classes? Coming to the country is a limited resource and a privilege. If they are here on a student visa then that is justified by, you know, being a student.
Click to expand...

True, although they've presumably already paid their tuition, so the college benefits anyway. And if they are allowed to stay, they'll be paying rent, food, etc., so that will benefit the local economy. I don't think a student visa would allow them to work in the U.S. (although someone please correct me if I'm wrong), so if that's true, they wouldn't be taking anyone's job either.
 
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