Who is the Baha’i Jesus and how does He differ from the Christian Jesus?

MJFlores said:

Muslims know themselves than any other.
Why would I believe a non Muslim man n when he writes Muslim things?

Fanaticism is following something one is unsure of.
Fanaticism is following a religion when one knows its totally fake.
Fanaticism is not understanding why one has to do it.


Isaiah 44:13-20 New International Version (NIV)
The carpenter measures with a line
and makes an outline with a marker;
he roughs it out with chisels
and marks it with compasses.

He shapes it in human form,
human form in all its glory,
that it may dwell in a shrine.
He cut down cedars,
or perhaps took a cypress or oak.
He let it grow among the trees of the forest,
or planted a pine, and the rain made it grow.

View attachment 41244

It is used as fuel for burning;
some of it he takes and warms himself,
he kindles a fire and bakes bread.
But he also fashions a god and worships it;
he makes an idol and bows down to it.

Half of the wood he burns in the fire;
over it he prepares his meal,
he roasts his meat and eats his fill.
He also warms himself and says,
“Ah! I am warm; I see the fire.”

From the rest he makes a god, his idol;
he bows down to it and worships.
He prays to it and says,
“Save me! You are my god!”
They know nothing, they understand nothing;
their eyes are plastered over so they cannot see,
and their minds closed so they cannot understand.
No one stops to think,
no one has the knowledge or understanding to say,
“Half of it I used for fuel;
I even baked bread over its coals,
I roasted meat and I ate.

View attachment 41246

Shall I make a detestable thing from what is left?
Shall I bow down to a block of wood?”
Such a person feeds on ashes; a deluded heart misleads him;
he cannot save himself, or say,
“Is not this thing in my right hand a lie?”

View attachment 41247

So it is important to know and understand - is the religion are we in genuinely from God or is it a lie?
If one goes ahead with the lie - then that is fanaticism.
That would be a great waste of time and money.

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Nescafe is a decent coffee but plucked and roasted coffee beats it. A little difficult to brew but the taste is unparalleled.

adrian009 said:

Baha’is recognise the Shi’a view as being more authentic, not Sunni. Shi’a Muslims see no Hadiths as being 100% authentic as opposed to the Sunni view you have shared. Do you know the difference between Sunni and Shi’a Islam? Your criticism of Islam using Sunni sources makes as much sense as me quoting Catholic catechisms and telling stories about badly behaved Popes to criticise your view of Christianity.

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Please do quote Catholic catechism and tell stories about the badly behaved Popes!
I wouldn't care less.
We should be the light in this dark world.



I know that Baha'i originated from Persia and thus acquired Shia point of view on Islamic things.
The differences are little and has something to do with who succeeds Muhammad - that Shia - Sunni rift.



But regarding to Hadith, I believe most Muslims believe on that.
Since there are more Sunni's than Shi'a.
Where can you find the teaching that you have to pray to Allah, five times a day?
It is not stated in the Qumran but it is in the Hadith.

It does not remove the fact that Muhammad had 13 wives.
Muhammad's wives - Wikipedia

One is a minor and the other wife he got [stole] from his adoptive son Zayd.
It is part of history - and definitely a common knowledge.
That is why Muslim men have 4 wives because they have a role model.



Polygyny in Islam. Traditional Sunni and Shia Islamic marital jurisprudence allows Muslim men to be married to multiple women (a practice known as polygyny and polygamy) — up to four at any point in time.

Polygyny in Islam - Wikipedia

firedragon said:

You know seriously, if your aim is to spread bit of hatred and not engage a topic with relevance, why don't you open your own thread to do that mate?

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That is the problem with the truth.
It hurts but it something that is undeniable.

MJFlores said:

That is the problem with the truth.
It hurts but it something that is undeniable.

View attachment 41249

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Truth hurts. You are irrelevant, and that's the truth.

oldbadger said:

Bahais could learn more by visiting extreme and then progresive Christian forums and voicing these tenets.
Then they would learn how distant they can be from some Christians!
In the more progressive Churches Bahais will be viewed as very prejudiced, in the extremist Churches Bahais will be treated to the most vicious insults for these same tenets.
The Bahai Jesus is a Bahai 'sell' of sorts, I think.

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Well, we've been through a lot with Baha'is. We've heard some of them say that they believe in Jesus to the point to where they could be called Christian. Others have made it sound like the NT and the Bible are terribly corrupted and that Jesus is dead and gone and never coming back. But, the more I think about what I read about liberal Christianity the more I see that their view of Jesus is very compatible with the Baha'i Jesus.

Baha'is say... "…We must cast aside such beliefs [superstitions] and investigate reality. That which is found to be real and conformable to reason must be accepted, and whatever science and reason cannot support must be rejected as imitation and not reality. – Abdu’l-Baha..."

The "Bible" believing Christians say this about Liberal Christianity... "In liberal Christian teaching, which is not Christian at all, man’s reason is stressed and is treated as the final authority. Liberal theologians seek to reconcile Christianity with secular science and modern thinking."

I wanted to separate that part out. It goes on...

"In doing so, they treat science as all-knowing and the Bible as fable-laden and false. Genesis’ early chapters are reduced to poetry or fantasy, having a message, but not to be taken literally (in spite of Jesus’ having spoken of those early chapters in literal terms). Mankind is not seen as totally depraved, and thus liberal theologians have an optimistic view of the future of mankind. The social gospel is also emphasized, while the inability of fallen man to fulfill it is denied. Whether a person is saved from his sin and its penalty in hell is no longer the issue; the main thing is how man treats his fellow man. “Love” of our fellow man becomes the defining issue..."

I've never had a problem with people believing that the stories were embellished, fictional, myth, whatever... Oh, one "whatever" is the remote possibility that everything in the NT and the Bible is exactly literally true. If they are not true. If the writers said things in the gospel that didn't actually take place, then that's lying. That's being deceptive. Pretending Jesus did all those things and rising from the dead just to get people to believe that Jesus was the Messiah? And if that's what they did to make Jesus the God/man he became to Christians, then what is Jesus without those things? No miracles. No virgin birth, No rising from the dead? Then what did he do to deserve being crucified?

That other Jesus, though, the one in the gospels, equated himself with God. So much so that Christians later concluded that Jesus was God. That was blasphemous. And he was put to death. End of story? No. It says he came back to life and could appear and disappear and ascend into the clouds. Maybe superstitious beliefs. Maybe fictional myth. But, that's the Jesus that changed the world. That's the Jesus that caused people to go out and preach, teach and force others to convert. That's the Jesus that preachers warned their followers to believe in and obey or they will burn in hell for eternity. That's the Jesus that scared people cry out to when they believe Satan and his demons are attacking them. Now does that sound like a superstitious religion to you? Hell yes.

Catholic have their exorcisms. Protestants had their witch hunts. Scary stuff. So sure, dump Satan and his demons. Then with no Satan we don't need hell. Without hell then why do we need to be saved from our sins and being sent to hell. If we don't need to be saved from our sins then we don't need Jesus to sacrifice himself on the cross to pay for our sins. By the time we are done... who needs anything that "traditional", "Biblical" Christianity says? Then what did Jesus come for? He didn't restore Israel and he didn't have to die to pay the penalty for our sins.

Is it all just made up stuff? Made up to get people to fear an invisible God and obey the rules of that invisible God? If we are going to start subtracting stuff, eventually it all goes back to superstitious beliefs about that invisible God too. What science do we have that this God is really real? And this includes God's "special" messengers. They all contradict each other. So we have to sort out what is "true" and what isn't. Or, really, what we like and what we can dump into the "superstitious" file. Yet, we are supposed to obey the rules that this unprovable invisible God has said through a special manifestation that claims that God told him things? And the new messenger always has to correct the wrong beliefs we had about the previous messenger? I don't know Old Badger, can we trust people with this new message?

firedragon said:

Truth hurts. You are irrelevant, and that's the truth.

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In regards Baha’i Jesus and Christian Jesus, both portraits are based on the NT.

Jesus taught the truth shall set us free. We should seek truth. We must avoid judging others and love our enemies as well as our friends. He taught there were were other faith communities and other Shepherds to those Faith communities like Himself. He taught there would be future Prophets and we should discern true from false Prophets.

In regards marriage law Jesus had little to say other than if a man divorced his wife he would be committing adultery if he remarried. He said nothing about Polygamy.

Do you believe divorce is permissible? Are there any laws in the Bible that explicitly forbade polygamy? How about laws about the minimum age for marriage?

You mentioned David and Solomon having multiple wives. How about Abraham and Moses? How many wives did they have? Did God rebuke Abraham for having three wives?

MJFlores said:

Please do quote Catholic catechism and tell stories about the badly behaved Popes!
I wouldn't care less.
We should be the light in this dark world.

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.

You’ve entirely missed the point of course.

MJFlores said:

I know that Baha'i originated from Persia and thus acquired Shia point of view on Islamic things.
The differences are little and has something to do with who succeeds Muhammad - that Shia - Sunni rift.

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So you don’t really understand the differences between Sunni and Shi’a at all.

MJFlores said:

But regarding to Hadith, I believe most Muslims believe on that.
Since there are more Sunni's than Shi'a.
Where can you find the teaching that you have to pray to Allah, five times a day?
It is not stated in the Qumran but it is in the Hadith.

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Do you mean Quran? So what’s the issue with praying five times a day? How many times a day do Christians pray? What did Jesus teach?

MJFlores said:

It does not remove the fact that Muhammad had 13 wives.
Muhammad's wives - Wikipedia

One is a minor and the other wife he got [stole] from his adoptive son Zayd.
It is part of history - and definitely a common knowledge.
That is why Muslim men have 4 wives because they have a role model.

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Therefore the much idealised King David must have been a false Prophet too because he had so many wives?

MJFlores said:

Polygyny in Islam. Traditional Sunni and Shia Islamic marital jurisprudence allows Muslim men to be married to multiple women (a practice known as polygyny and polygamy) — up to four at any point in time.

Polygyny in Islam - Wikipedia

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So what does Christian law state about number of wives, age of marriage, and consent? How well does your Church follow Christ’s Teachings?

adrian009 said:

In regards Baha’i Jesus and Christian Jesus, both portraits are based on the NT.

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I recalled that you mentioned that Baha'i Jesus is similar to the Muslim Jesus. The Christian Jesus is sub-defined into Mormon Jesus, Nicene Jesus [Catholic/Protestant] and the Jehovah Jesus - also separate and distinct from the Bible Jesus.



How do you love your enemies?
Isn't it love when you see your enemy in the wrong side, to talk to him out of it and show him in the right side?



And how do you discern false prophets?
Isn't it you discern them by their works and their motives? Didn't Jesus say that a bad tree produces bad fruit and cannot bear good fruit?

Does the Bible permit polygamous relationships?

In Matthew 19:5 Jesus said what is written in Genesis
and said, ‘For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh’?



Jesus said a man is to be united to his wife [not wives]
He said the two [not the 3, not 4 or 5] will become one flesh [one many flesh or a few flesh]
Jesus taught monogamy not polygamy nor orgyous relationship.

Ephesians 5:33
However, each one of you also must love his wife as he loves himself, and the wife must respect her husband.

Paul said each must love his wife [not wives] as he loves himself
He also said the wife [not wives] must respect her husband

1 Corinthians 7:1-4 Good News Translation (GNT)
Now, to deal with the matters you wrote about.

A man does well not to marry. But because there is so much immorality, every man should have his own wife, and every woman should have her own husband. A man should fulfill his duty as a husband, and a woman should fulfill her duty as a wife, and each should satisfy the other's needs. A wife is not the master of her own body, but her husband is; in the same way a husband is not the master of his own body, but his wife is.



In this verses we can read that every man should have his own wife [not wives]
and every woman should have her own husband [not husbands]
Now if a husband has a handful of wives - how will the man fulfill his duties with his wives?
How will he satisfy his wives? Make a weekly schedule with one hour breaks? And still find time to create a religion? He is already poofed out by the time he reach his 3rd wife!
He would be raising the white flag after the 4th wife!
He would turn permanently blue after 16,110 wives!
His sexual exploits would be written in the hadith after 13 wives and 2 concubines!


Now if a person has many polygamous relationship then what is it?
Isn't that debauchery? Isn't that orgies? You have multiple sexual partners here in the guise of multiple matrimony. Would that send you to heaven when you had your piece of heaven here on earth?

1 Peter 4:3 New International Version (NIV)
For you have spent enough time in the past doing what pagans choose to do—living in debauchery, lust, drunkenness, orgies, carousing and detestable idolatry.

According to the bible these are pagans chose to do!
Why in the world would you like to have 13 wives and 2 2nd fiddles?
Because I have a lot of love to give for more than 2 - more than enough for me and you?
Sounds like Tom Jones song eh?
He love to have 13 wives and 2 other lovers because it is filled with debauchery, lust and orgies!
Probably he would still go to heaven even when he had plenty of women to fudge when he was alive.
Maybe in heaven he would have 72 virgins which is 60 more women upstairs than in this world, right?



Galatians 5:19-21 New International Version (NIV)
The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Sad, he won't go upstairs.

Abraham's mistake is Sarai mistake and is recorded in Genesis 16.
Abraham married Kethura after Sarai's death - no foul here [marriage is a death do us part thing]
Moses marriage to an Etiophian [Cu****e] woman was also a source of dissention among the Israelites.
Even with that it is much less than 13 wives and 2 on the side, much much less than having 8 wives and 16,000 junior wives. No pedophelia acts involved, unlike one was fudged up while she was playing with her dolls.


David is the King of Israel, not a prophet.
God's prophet to David was Nathan
Why would God commission a prophet to David if David is a prophet?
So David is not a prophet. Since David is not a prophet, he cannot be a false prophet because he was not a prophet on the first place!

The Church of Christ follow the Bible 100%
Because if we do not follow the Bible and hear the voice of Christ - we will not be saved.
The light of the gospel will disappear in our eyes and our minds - if we do not adhere to the Bible.
Our light will be come dark and everything written in the bible would be unclear.
We would be doing what the world and its pagans are doing.
We would have 4 or more wives, fudging there and fudging here.
We would lose eternal life because we will be doing what God hates
And one of which is

Malachi 2:16 Easy-to-Read Version (ERV)
The Lord, the God of Israel, says, “I hate divorce, and I hate the cruel things that men do. So protect your spiritual unity. Don’t cheat on your wife.”

Do not cheat on your wife the Bible says.
It does not mean Do not cheat on your wives.

MJFlores said:

I recalled that you mentioned that Baha'i Jesus is similar to the Muslim Jesus. The Christian Jesus is sub-defined into Mormon Jesus, Nicene Jesus [Catholic/Protestant] and the Jehovah Jesus - also separate and distinct from the Bible Jesus.

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No. Go back and read the OP. Baha’i Jesus has more in common with Christian Jesus than Muslim Jesus.

1/ Baha’is recognise the Divine Inspiration of the Hebrew Bible and the New Testament. Muslims tend to see both books as corrupted and superseded by the Quran.

2/ Baha’is see Jesus as the Son of God. Muslims don’t.

3/ Baha’is recognise the Divinity of Christ. Muslims don’t.

You are right to highlight that Christians have irreconcilable differences in regards their opposing views of God with many factions claiming to have the truth and denouncing other factions.

INC appears to be one such denomination. According to Wikipedia:

INC describes itself to be the one true church and the restoration of the original church founded by Jesus, whereby all other Christian churches are apostate.[4][5] According to INC doctrine, the official registration of the church with the Philippine government on July 27, 1914, by Felix Y. Manalo—who is upheld by members to be the last messenger of God—was an act of divine providence and the fulfillment of biblical prophecy concerning the re-establishment of the original church of Christ in the Far East[6][7] concurrent with the coming of the seventh seal marking the end of days.

Iglesia ni Cristo - Wikipedia

MJFlores said:

How do you love your enemies?
Isn't it love when you see your enemy in the wrong side, to talk to him out of it and show him in the right side?

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Talking with them, or preaching at them? Taking the time to learn about other faiths or simply finding a few negatives to confirm biases and prejudices?

MJFlores said:

And how do you discern false prophets?
Isn't it you discern them by their works and their motives? Didn't Jesus say that a bad tree produces bad fruit and cannot bear good fruit?

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That is exactly right.

MJFlores said:

Does the Bible permit polygamous relationships?

In Matthew 19:5 Jesus said what is written in Genesis
and said, ‘For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh’?

Click to expand...

MJFlores said:

Jesus said a man is to be united to his wife [not wives]
He said the two [not the 3, not 4 or 5] will become one flesh [one many flesh or a few flesh]
Jesus taught monogamy not polygamy nor orgyous relationship.

Ephesians 5:33
However, each one of you also must love his wife as he loves himself, and the wife must respect her husband.

Paul said each must love his wife [not wives] as he loves himself
He also said the wife [not wives] must respect her husband

1 Corinthians 7:1-4 Good News Translation (GNT)
Now, to deal with the matters you wrote about.

A man does well not to marry. But because there is so much immorality, every man should have his own wife, and every woman should have her own husband. A man should fulfill his duty as a husband, and a woman should fulfill her duty as a wife, and each should satisfy the other's needs. A wife is not the master of her own body, but her husband is; in the same way a husband is not the master of his own body, but his wife is.

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Judaism by the post exile period had become predominantly monogamous as had the life in the Roman Empire. So most marriages at that stage were monogamous. That is why NT scriptures refer to just one wife.

Paul on the other hand felt for those who could travel and spread the Gospel as he had done were better not to marry. It was a pragmatic approach.

MJFlores said:

In this verses we can read that every man should have his own wife [not wives]
and every woman should have her own husband [not husbands]
Now if a husband has a handful of wives - how will the man fulfill his duties with his wives?
How will he satisfy his wives? Make a weekly schedule with one hour breaks? And still find time to create a religion? He is already poofed out by the time he reach his 3rd wife!
He would be raising the white flag after the 4th wife!
He would turn permanently blue after 16,110 wives!
His sexual exploits would be written in the hadith after 13 wives and 2 concubines!

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My point is not to advocate polygamy. It is to highlight that in the past Polygamy was an essential part of the way the world worked. King David and Muhammad were both Divinely appointed Prophets and Leaders who United various tribes and factions and marriage to different women from various tribes was part of bringing tribes together. The main purpose was political, not sexual.

MJFlores said:

Now if a person has many polygamous relationship then what is it?
Isn't that debauchery? Isn't that orgies? You have multiple sexual partners here in the guise of multiple matrimony. Would that send you to heaven when you had your piece of heaven here on earth?

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This is an example of how you would misrepresent Abraham and King David?

MJFlores said:

Abraham's mistake is Sarai mistake and is recorded in Genesis 16.
Abraham married Kethura after Sarai's death - no foul here [marriage is a death do us part thing]
Moses marriage to an Etiophian [Cu****e] woman was also a source of dissention among the Israelites.

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You forgot to mention Hagár.

Hagar - Wikipedia

MJFlores said:

Even with that it is much less than 13 wives and 2 on the side, much much less than having 8 wives and 16,000 junior wives. No pedophelia acts involved, unlike one was fudged up while she was playing with her dolls.

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The fact of the matter is that Muhammad taught the predominantly pagan tribes of the Arabian Peninsula to abandon their many gods and become like the Jews and Christians and worship the One True God of Abraham. After those from His ancestral tribe the Quraysh tried to destroy Muhammad and His followers, He led the Muslims to victory and went on to unite the disparate tribes in no small measure through marriages as was customary. Polygamy was essential to achieve that end.

No where in the Bible or Quran is the minimum age of marriage stipulated. Children were no doubt betrothed to be married as was customary to ensure suitable marriages and to ensure they were virgins prior to marriage.

MJFlores said:

David is the King of Israel, not a prophet.
God's prophet to David was Nathan
Why would God commission a prophet to David if David is a prophet?
So David is not a prophet. Since David is not a prophet, he cannot be a false prophet because he was not a prophet on the first place!

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According to many Christians David was a Prophet as well as the King of a United Kingdom. For example:

While David is not generally numbered among "the Prophets" in the narrow sense of those specific biblical authors who wrote that category of Old Testament books, David was filled with the Holy Spirit by whom he wrote the Psalms, many of which were prophetically foretelling the coming of the Messiah. As such, David can rightly be called a prophet, as he is in the New Testament.

David is explicitly called a prophet at least once in Scripture, during one of Peter's sermons in the book of Acts:

"Brethren, I may confidently say to you regarding the patriarch David that he both died and was buried, and his tomb is with us to this day. And so, because he was a prophet and knew that God had sworn to him with an oath to seat one of his descendants on his throne, he looked ahead and spoke of the resurrection of the Christ, that He was neither abandoned to Hades, nor did His flesh suffer decay," (Acts 2:29-31).

Yet, even when they don't use the word, the New Testament believers clearly regarded David as a prophet. Earlier in Acts we also read:

"Brethren, the Scripture had to be fulfilled, which the Holy Spirit foretold by the mouth of David concerning Judas, who became a guide to those who arrested Jesus," (Acts 1:16).

The language of the Holy Spirit foretelling by the mouth of David is an obvious reference to prophecy, even if the exact term is not used. Likewise, Jesus Himself said things like:

"'What do you think about the Christ, whose son is He?' They said to Him, 'The son of David.' He said to them, 'Then how does David in the Spirit call Him "Lord," saying, "The Lord said to my Lord, 'Sit at My right hand, Until I put Your enemies beneath Your feet'?"'" (Matthew 22:42-44).

Again, David wrote "in the Spirit" and spoke of the Messiah who would come in the distant future. This is the language of prophecy. The author of Hebrews may also explicitly count David among the prophets when he writes:

"And what more shall I say? For time will fail me if I tell of Gideon, Barak, Samson, Jephthah, of David and Samuel and the prophets," (Hebrews 11:32).

Was David a Prophet? | CARM.org

MJFlores said:

David is the King of Israel, not a prophet.

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So you mean the New Testament made a mistake? So the writer of acts got it wrong mate?

Acts chapter 2 (TNIV) - Brothers and sisters, we all know that the patriarch David died and was buried, and his tomb is here to this day. But he was a prophet and knew that God had promised him on oath that he would place one of his descendants on his throne.

adrian009 said:

2/ Baha’is see Jesus as the Son of God. Muslims don’t.

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Do Bahai's believe that Jesus is THE SON OF GOD as in One Son? The biological son of God born through Mary impregnated by the Holy Spirit?

Can you explain very precisely?

firedragon said:

Do Bahai's believe that Jesus is THE SON OF GOD as in One Son?

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Yes.

firedragon said:

The biological son of God born through Mary impregnated by the Holy Spirit?

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No.

firedragon said:

Can you explain very precisely?

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It is a Divine mystery so anything I say will be inadequate. However this is my limited understanding from a Baha’i perspective.

Baha'u'llah taught that there is One God whose essence is unknowable.

Humanity is one, and all the main religions are inspired by God.

Revelation | What Bahá’ís Believe

Bahá'í Faith and the unity of religion - Wikipedia

Baha'u'llah speaks of the underlying purpose of religion:

"O ye children of men! The fundamental purpose animating the Faith of God and His Religion is to safeguard the interests and promote the unity of the human race, and to foster the spirit of love and fellowship amongst men…Whatsoever is raised on this foundation, the changes and chances of the world can never impair its strength, nor will the revolution of countless centuries undermine its structure."

And the unity of religion:

"…the Bearers of the trust of God are made manifest unto the peoples of the earth as the Exponents of a new Cause and the Bearers of a new Message. Inasmuch as these Birds of the Celestial Throne are all sent down from the heaven of the Will of God, and as they all arise to proclaim His irresistible Faith, they therefore are regarded as one soul and the same person. For they all drink from the one Cup of the love of God, and all partake of the fruit of the same Tree of Oneness."

The Challenge therefore is to appreciate what all the recognised religions have in common and better understand the apparent contradictions or inconsistencies. Shoghi Effendi as previously stated in regards to Christ:

"As to the position of Christianity, let it be stated without any hesitation or equivocation that its divine origin is unconditionally acknowledged, that the Sonship and Divinity of Jesus Christ are fearlessly asserted, that the divine inspiration of the Gospel is fully recognized, that the reality of the mystery of the Immaculacy of the Virgin Mary is confessed, and the primacy of Peter, the Prince of the Apostles, is upheld and defended. The Founder of the Christian Faith is designated by Bahá’u’lláh as the “Spirit of God,” is proclaimed as the One Who “appeared out of the breath of the Holy Ghost...”Shoghi Effendi

How does the designation 'Son of God' assist us to understand the Spiritual Reality of Christ AND the underlying unity of religion?

Lets consider the key verses:

In Matthew 1:18-25 it is written:
"This is how the birth of Jesus Christ came about: His mother Mary was pledged to be married to Joseph, but before they came together, she was found to be with child through the Holy Spirit.
Because Joseph her husband was a righteous man and did not want to expose her to public disgrace, he had in mind to divorce her quietly. But after he had considered this, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream and said, “Joseph son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary home as your wife, because what is conceived in her is from the Holy Spirit. She will give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus, because he will save his people from their sins.” All this took place to fulfill what the Lord had said through the prophet: ”The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and they will call him Immanuel”-- which means, “God with us.” When Joseph awoke, he did what the angel of the Lord had commanded him and took Mary home as his wife. But he had no union with her until she gave birth to a son. And he gave him the name Jesus."

We know from the Baha'i writings that the virgin birth is upheld as a Divine mystery.

We also consider
"For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that however believes in Him should not perish and have everlasting life."
John 3:16

This is important to emphasise Jesus's Uniqueness and Greatness in contrast with many Biblical verses indicating we are all sons of God. Such phrases ‘Sons of God’ and ‘Children of God’ are used many times through both the Old and New Testaments.

Sons of God: Genesis 6:2, Genesis 6:4, Job 1:6, Job 2:1, Job 38:7, Matthew 5:9, Luke 20:36, Romans 8:14, Romans 8:19, Galatians 3:26

Children of God: John 1:12, John 11:52, Romans 8:16, Romans 8:16, Romans 8:21, Romans 9:8

The significance of John 3:16 in contrast to these other verses along with the story of the virgin birth clearly sets Jesus apart from ordinary men. So the 'Son of God' designation highlights the Uniqueness and Greatness of Jesus when compared to the rest of humanity.

However other religions may also have different designations such as Moses being the 'Friend of God', Muhammad being the 'Seal of the Prophets' or Baha'u'llah being the 'Glory of God'. These different designations may serve a similar purpose to highlight the Uniqueness of a particular Man who Manifests God's Greatness with a Revelation that transforms communities, traditions, morals, and even civilisations.

Therefore the 'Son of God' designation of Jesus is consistent with the underlying unity in all the Great Prophets or Manifestations of God.

Hope that helps to see how some Baha’is make sense of Jesus being the Son of God as clearly recorded in the NT.

adrian009 said:

INC describes itself to be the one true church and the restoration of the original church founded by Jesus, whereby all other Christian churches are apostate.[4][5] According to INC doctrine, the official registration of the church with the Philippine government on July 27, 1914, by Felix Y. Manalo—who is upheld by members to be the last messenger of God—was an act of divine providence and the fulfillment of biblical prophecy concerning the re-establishment of the original church of Christ in the Far East[6][7] concurrent with the coming of the seventh seal marking the end of days.

Iglesia ni Cristo - Wikipedia

Click to expand...

adrian009 said:

3/ Baha’is recognise the Divinity of Christ. Muslims don’t.

Click to expand...

What does Divinity mean in the Bible?
The divinity in the Bible is considered the Godhead itself, or God in general. Or it may have reference to a deity. Even angels in the Psalms are considered divine or elohim, as spirit beings, in God's form. In the New Testament the Greek word θεῖον (theion) in the Douay Version, is translated as "divinity".

Divinity - Wikipedia
I'm sorry but the Jesus of the Bible isn't God and never will be. And that is what each member of the Iglesia ni Cristo [Church of Christ - translated in Filipino] believes.

We accept Jesus Christ as the Son of God:

“And when the centurion, who stood there in front of Jesus, heard his cry and saw how he died, he said, ‘Surely THIS MAN WAS THE SON OF GOD!’” (Mark 15:39, NIV, emphasis mine).

We accept Jesus Christ as our Lord:

“So, all the people of Israel should know this truly: GOD HAS MADE JESUS — THE MAN YOU NAILED TO THE CROSS — BOTH LORD AND CHRIST.” (Acts 2:36, New Century Version, emphasis mine)

We accept Jesus Christ as our Savior:

“The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom you had murdered by hanging Him on a tree. GOD EXALTED THIS MAN TO HIS RIGHT HAND AS RULER AND SAVIOR, to grant repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.” (Acts 5:30-31, Holman Christian Standard Bible, emphasis mine)

We accept Jesus Christ as the Mediator between man and the one true God:

“For there is one God and ONE MEDIATOR BETWEEN GOD AND MEN, THE MAN CHRIST JESUS” (I Timothy 2:5, NIV, emphasis mine)

Because we believe that there is only one true God, the Father, thus, Jesus is not the true God, but the Son of the one true God. The Lord Jesus Christ Hiself explicitly proclaimed that the father alone is the true God and He is the Son of the one true God, whom the Father has sent:

“Jesus spoke these words, lifted up His eyes to heaven, and said: "Father, the hour has come. Glorify Your Son, that Your Son also may glorify You...
“And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.” (John 17:1,3 NKJV)

To attain eternal life is to believe that the Father is the only true God, and Jesus is the one sent by the one true God. The Lord Jesus Christ Himself attests that He is indeed a man in nature:

“As it is, you are determined to kill me, A MAN WHO HAS TOLD YOU THE TRUTH that I heard from God. Abraham did not do such things.” (John 8:40 NIV, emphasis mine).

The Bible clearly tells us that “God is not man” and “man is not God”:

“I will not execute the fierceness of mine anger, I will not return to destroy Ephraim: FOR I AM GOD, AND NOT MAN; the Holy One in the midst of thee; and I will not come in wrath.” (Hosea 11:9 ASV, emphasis mine)

“Son of man, say unto the prince of Tyre, Thus saith the Lord Jehovah: Because thy heart is lifted up, and thou hast said, I am a god, I sit in the seat of God, in the midst of the seas; yet THOU ART MAN, AND NOT GOD, though thou didst set thy heart as the heart of God.” (Ezekiel 28:2 ASV, emphasis mine)

Thus, we reject the teaching that Christ is God.

adrian009 said:

Talking with them, or preaching at them? Taking the time to learn about other faiths or simply finding a few negatives to confirm biases and prejudices?

Click to expand...

How about being born in the other side?
Blindly believing that Jesus is God and a member of the Trinity?
How about once aspiring to enter the seminary?
And how about being educated in Catholic schools from Grade School to Graduate studies?
Until I made a comparison on what I once believed, history and what is written in the Bible.

adrian009 said:

King David and Muhammad were both Divinely appointed Prophets and Leaders who United various tribes and factions and marriage to different women from various tribes was part of bringing tribes together.

Click to expand...

I wished that would be the case but women do have needs? And if it were to develop alliances, the woman would ask to be watered in the hot desert sands and the man would require drilling rights.



If you get my drift.

adrian009 said:

You forgot to mention Hagár.

Hagar - Wikipedia

Click to expand...

As I have said, Abram's wife Sarai made a mistake by giving Hagar as his wife.
It was a mistake and in the end Sarai dispatched Hagar
And Hagar fled from her.

Genesis 16:1-6 New International Version (NIV)
Now Sarai, Abram’s wife, had borne him no children. But she had an Egyptian slave named Hagar; so she said to Abram, “The Lord has kept me from having children. Go, sleep with my slave; perhaps I can build a family through her.”

Abram agreed to what Sarai said. So after Abram had been living in Canaan ten years, Sarai his wife took her Egyptian slave Hagar and gave her to her husband to be his wife. He slept with Hagar, and she conceived.

When she knew she was pregnant, she began to despise her mistress. Then Sarai said to Abram, “You are responsible for the wrong I am suffering. I put my slave in your arms, and now that she knows she is pregnant, she despises me. May the Lord judge between you and me.”

“Your slave is in your hands,” Abram said. “Do with her whatever you think best.” Then Sarai mistreated Hagar; so she fled from her.

adrian009 said:

"Brethren, I may confidently say to you regarding the patriarch David that he both died and was buried, and his tomb is with us to this day. And so, because he was a prophet and knew that God had sworn to him with an oath to seat one of his descendants on his throne, he looked ahead and spoke of the resurrection of the Christ, that He was neither abandoned to Hades, nor did His flesh suffer decay," (Acts 2:29-31).

Click to expand...

I stand corrected - David is a prophet




An edited message? "The reality is that divorce is necessary under some circumstances."

Divorce is never OK in our Church and the Philippines is the only country in the planet which Divorce laws are non existent.

Marriage is sacred. Even if the union becomes a horror story.



A spouse could leave the family home but he is not to marry.
That is the teaching of the Bible and we observe these teachings.

1 Corinthians 7:10-11 Common English Bible (CEB)
I’m passing on the Lord’s command to those who are married: A wife shouldn’t leave her husband, but if she does leave him, then she should stay single or be reconciled to her husband. And a man shouldn’t divorce his wife.

firedragon said:

So you mean the New Testament made a mistake? So the writer of acts got it wrong mate?

Acts chapter 2 (TNIV) - Brothers and sisters, we all know that the patriarch David died and was buried, and his tomb is here to this day. But he was a prophet and knew that God had promised him on oath that he would place one of his descendants on his throne.

Click to expand...

adrian009 said:

Yes.



No.



It is a Divine mystery so anything I say will be inadequate. However this is my limited understanding from a Baha’i perspective.

Baha'u'llah taught that there is One God whose essence is unknowable.

Humanity is one, and all the main religions are inspired by God.

Revelation | What Bahá’ís Believe

Bahá'í Faith and the unity of religion - Wikipedia

Baha'u'llah speaks of the underlying purpose of religion:

"O ye children of men! The fundamental purpose animating the Faith of God and His Religion is to safeguard the interests and promote the unity of the human race, and to foster the spirit of love and fellowship amongst men…Whatsoever is raised on this foundation, the changes and chances of the world can never impair its strength, nor will the revolution of countless centuries undermine its structure."

And the unity of religion:

"…the Bearers of the trust of God are made manifest unto the peoples of the earth as the Exponents of a new Cause and the Bearers of a new Message. Inasmuch as these Birds of the Celestial Throne are all sent down from the heaven of the Will of God, and as they all arise to proclaim His irresistible Faith, they therefore are regarded as one soul and the same person. For they all drink from the one Cup of the love of God, and all partake of the fruit of the same Tree of Oneness."

The Challenge therefore is to appreciate what all the recognised religions have in common and better understand the apparent contradictions or inconsistencies. Shoghi Effendi as previously stated in regards to Christ:

"As to the position of Christianity, let it be stated without any hesitation or equivocation that its divine origin is unconditionally acknowledged, that the Sonship and Divinity of Jesus Christ are fearlessly asserted, that the divine inspiration of the Gospel is fully recognized, that the reality of the mystery of the Immaculacy of the Virgin Mary is confessed, and the primacy of Peter, the Prince of the Apostles, is upheld and defended. The Founder of the Christian Faith is designated by Bahá’u’lláh as the “Spirit of God,” is proclaimed as the One Who “appeared out of the breath of the Holy Ghost...”Shoghi Effendi

How does the designation 'Son of God' assist us to understand the Spiritual Reality of Christ AND the underlying unity of religion?

Lets consider the key verses:

In Matthew 1:18-25 it is written:
"This is how the birth of Jesus Christ came about: His mother Mary was pledged to be married to Joseph, but before they came together, she was found to be with child through the Holy Spirit.
Because Joseph her husband was a righteous man and did not want to expose her to public disgrace, he had in mind to divorce her quietly. But after he had considered this, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream and said, “Joseph son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary home as your wife, because what is conceived in her is from the Holy Spirit. She will give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus, because he will save his people from their sins.” All this took place to fulfill what the Lord had said through the prophet: ”The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and they will call him Immanuel”-- which means, “God with us.” When Joseph awoke, he did what the angel of the Lord had commanded him and took Mary home as his wife. But he had no union with her until she gave birth to a son. And he gave him the name Jesus."

We know from the Baha'i writings that the virgin birth is upheld as a Divine mystery.

We also consider
"For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that however believes in Him should not perish and have everlasting life."
John 3:16

This is important to emphasise Jesus's Uniqueness and Greatness in contrast with many Biblical verses indicating we are all sons of God. Such phrases ‘Sons of God’ and ‘Children of God’ are used many times through both the Old and New Testaments.

Sons of God: Genesis 6:2, Genesis 6:4, Job 1:6, Job 2:1, Job 38:7, Matthew 5:9, Luke 20:36, Romans 8:14, Romans 8:19, Galatians 3:26

Children of God: John 1:12, John 11:52, Romans 8:16, Romans 8:16, Romans 8:21, Romans 9:8

The significance of John 3:16 in contrast to these other verses along with the story of the virgin birth clearly sets Jesus apart from ordinary men. So the 'Son of God' designation highlights the Uniqueness and Greatness of Jesus when compared to the rest of humanity.

However other religions may also have different designations such as Moses being the 'Friend of God', Muhammad being the 'Seal of the Prophets' or Baha'u'llah being the 'Glory of God'. These different designations may serve a similar purpose to highlight the Uniqueness of a particular Man who Manifests God's Greatness with a Revelation that transforms communities, traditions, morals, and even civilisations.

Therefore the 'Son of God' designation of Jesus is consistent with the underlying unity in all the Great Prophets or Manifestations of God.

Hope that helps to see how some Baha’is make sense of Jesus being the Son of God as clearly recorded in the NT.

Click to expand...

Okay so as I understand. Correct me please.

1. Jesus is Son of God but is not the biological son.
2. Jesus, Moses, Muhammed, Bahaullah are all the same, there is no difference. They are all manifestations of God.

I have some questions though stemming from your words.

1. You quoted Gospel of Matthew where the author quotes the Septuagint. But its a well known fact that the Septuagint mistranslated the Tanakh (the particular verse). Anything you could say about that?

2. Effendi (If there is any salutations pls excuse me) speaks of the Immaculacy of Mary. What is this immaculacy for a Bahai? Immaculacy is a Christian concept external to the Bible born from probably the protevangelian. What do you adhere to? This is not biblical.

3. Jesus is called Houios Thou Theos, Son of God, and also later in latter writings as Monogenis, the One Son, but the Old Testament calls Ephraim "Prototokos" which is a higher position because he is the elder son. Prototokos is the heir of the father, the one with the responsibility. I understand that you have quoted various verses which diminishes the Christian view of sonship to a title, not an actual, biological son of God, but how do you account for this?

4. Im curious to know where Moses is called "friend of God as a title" unless you are inferring based on Exodus 33. It doesn't really use it as a title.

5. You are still not clear what you believe about Jesus being the Son of God. You said its a mystery. So you want me to leave it at that?

Peace.

adrian009 said:

It is a Divine mystery so anything I say will be inadequate. However this is my limited understanding from a Baha’i perspective.

Baha'u'llah taught that there is One God whose essence is unknowable.

Humanity is one, and all the main religions are inspired by God.

Revelation | What Bahá’ís Believe

Bahá'í Faith and the unity of religion - Wikipedia

Baha'u'llah speaks of the underlying purpose of religion:

"O ye children of men! The fundamental purpose animating the Faith of God and His Religion is to safeguard the interests and promote the unity of the human race, and to foster the spirit of love and fellowship amongst men…Whatsoever is raised on this foundation, the changes and chances of the world can never impair its strength, nor will the revolution of countless centuries undermine its structure."

And the unity of religion:

"…the Bearers of the trust of God are made manifest unto the peoples of the earth as the Exponents of a new Cause and the Bearers of a new Message. Inasmuch as these Birds of the Celestial Throne are all sent down from the heaven of the Will of God, and as they all arise to proclaim His irresistible Faith, they therefore are regarded as one soul and the same person. For they all drink from the one Cup of the love of God, and all partake of the fruit of the same Tree of Oneness."

The Challenge therefore is to appreciate what all the recognised religions have in common and better understand the apparent contradictions or inconsistencies. Shoghi Effendi as previously stated in regards to Christ:

"As to the position of Christianity, let it be stated without any hesitation or equivocation that its divine origin is unconditionally acknowledged, that the Sonship and Divinity of Jesus Christ are fearlessly asserted, that the divine inspiration of the Gospel is fully recognized, that the reality of the mystery of the Immaculacy of the Virgin Mary is confessed, and the primacy of Peter, the Prince of the Apostles, is upheld and defended. The Founder of the Christian Faith is designated by Bahá’u’lláh as the “Spirit of God,” is proclaimed as the One Who “appeared out of the breath of the Holy Ghost...”Shoghi Effendi

How does the designation 'Son of God' assist us to understand the Spiritual Reality of Christ AND the underlying unity of religion?

Lets consider the key verses:

In Matthew 1:18-25 it is written:
"This is how the birth of Jesus Christ came about: His mother Mary was pledged to be married to Joseph, but before they came together, she was found to be with child through the Holy Spirit.
Because Joseph her husband was a righteous man and did not want to expose her to public disgrace, he had in mind to divorce her quietly. But after he had considered this, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream and said, “Joseph son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary home as your wife, because what is conceived in her is from the Holy Spirit. She will give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus, because he will save his people from their sins.” All this took place to fulfill what the Lord had said through the prophet: ”The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and they will call him Immanuel”-- which means, “God with us.” When Joseph awoke, he did what the angel of the Lord had commanded him and took Mary home as his wife. But he had no union with her until she gave birth to a son. And he gave him the name Jesus."

We know from the Baha'i writings that the virgin birth is upheld as a Divine mystery.

We also consider
"For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that however believes in Him should not perish and have everlasting life."
John 3:16

This is important to emphasise Jesus's Uniqueness and Greatness in contrast with many Biblical verses indicating we are all sons of God. Such phrases ‘Sons of God’ and ‘Children of God’ are used many times through both the Old and New Testaments.

Sons of God: Genesis 6:2, Genesis 6:4, Job 1:6, Job 2:1, Job 38:7, Matthew 5:9, Luke 20:36, Romans 8:14, Romans 8:19, Galatians 3:26

Children of God: John 1:12, John 11:52, Romans 8:16, Romans 8:16, Romans 8:21, Romans 9:8

The significance of John 3:16 in contrast to these other verses along with the story of the virgin birth clearly sets Jesus apart from ordinary men. So the 'Son of God' designation highlights the Uniqueness and Greatness of Jesus when compared to the rest of humanity.

However other religions may also have different designations such as Moses being the 'Friend of God', Muhammad being the 'Seal of the Prophets' or Baha'u'llah being the 'Glory of God'. These different designations may serve a similar purpose to highlight the Uniqueness of a particular Man who Manifests God's Greatness with a Revelation that transforms communities, traditions, morals, and even civilisations.

Therefore the 'Son of God' designation of Jesus is consistent with the underlying unity in all the Great Prophets or Manifestations of God.

Hope that helps to see how some Baha’is make sense of Jesus being the Son of God as clearly recorded in the NT.

Click to expand...

P/S A lot of Baha'i would agree with your take on the subject, but some unable to write it in such a logical sequence.

Regards Tony

[

firedragon said:

4. Im curious to know where Moses is called "friend of God as a title" unless you are inferring based on Exodus 33. It doesn't really use it as a title.

Click to expand...

I think it was Abraham as the 'Friend of God' and after Him came Moses was 'He Who conversed with God' and that is the Station they gave their Message under.

It is an interesting subject, I have read some things on this in the past, but no time today to look it up.

Stay well stay happy, Regards Tony

firedragon said:

1. Jesus is Son of God but is not the biological son.

Click to expand...

Yes

firedragon said:

2. Jesus, Moses, Muhammed, Bahaullah are all the same, there is no difference. They are all manifestations of God.

Click to expand...

Yes

firedragon said:

I have some questions though stemming from your words.

Click to expand...

Do keep in mind I am sharing my personal thoughts and reflections. While learning and scholarship are valued in the Baha'i Faith, Baha'i scholars and thinkers have no authority or standing beyond anyone else. All Baha'is are obliged to turn towards the Writings for guidance. So if someone who isn't a Baha'i provides references from the Writings or interpretations of the Guardian, or elucidations of the Universal House of Justice that contradicts what I say, I do not consider myself a scholar but regardless will always defer to the Baha'i Writings.

firedragon said:

1. You quoted Gospel of Matthew where the author quotes the Septuagint. But its a well known fact that the Septuagint mistranslated the Tanakh (the particular verse). Anything you could say about that?

Click to expand...

Presumably you refer to Matthew 1:23 in relation to Isaiah 7:14. Matthew appears make this connection which works in relation to the Greek Septuagint but not the original Hebrew. The Greek refers to a virgin whereas the Hebrew to a young woman (Almah) and not a virgin.

Matthew 1:23 - Wikipedia

I’m not aware of any Baha’i writings that comments on this issue.

The author of Matthew is arguably the most Hebrew of all the Gospels with over sixty references to the Tanakh.

OT Quotations in the Gospel of Matthew

Its seems likely with the clear intent of the Gospel writers to present Jesus as being the Promised Jewish Messiah that the text was redacted with reference to the Septuagint version of Isaiah 7:14. Its possible also that no such reference was intended.

What I personally don’t believe is the Gospel writers were so possessed with the Holy Spirit that they wrote word for word what God Revealed to them. The Gospels are not the literal Word of God in the same manner as the Quran. On this matter the Baha’i writings are clear.

firedragon said:

2. Effendi (If there is any salutations pls excuse me) speaks of the Immaculacy of Mary. What is this immaculacy for a Bahai? Immaculacy is a Christian concept external to the Bible born from probably the protevangelian. What do you adhere to? This is not biblical.

Click to expand...

The word immaculate is simply an English word and to understand its meaning turn to a dictionary rather than text on Christianity. Shoghi Effendi’s native language was Persian but he was a student at Oxford University, England who studied English.

For example:

Definition of immaculate

1: spotlessly clean an immaculate kitchenimmaculate uniforms
2: having or containing no flaw or error an immaculate record of servicein immaculate detail
3: having no stain or blemish : PUREan immaculate heart
4: having no colored spots or marks —used especially in botany and zoologypetals immaculate

Definition of IMMACULATE

In the sense of Mary’s birth, she was a virgin as clearly recorded in the Gospels and Quran. Her character was also exemplary.

firedragon said:

3. Jesus is called Houios Thou Theos, Son of God, and also later in latter writings as Monogenis, the One Son, but the Old Testament calls Ephraim "Prototokos" which is a higher position because he is the elder son. Prototokos is the heir of the father, the one with the responsibility. I understand that you have quoted various verses which diminishes the Christian view of sonship to a title, not an actual, biological son of God, but how do you account for this?

Click to expand...

Jesus although not the biological son of God is ‘Son of God’ in the other ways you mention, so its far more than a mere title.

firedragon said:

4. Im curious to know where Moses is called "friend of God as a title" unless you are inferring based on Exodus 33. It doesn't really use it as a title.

Click to expand...

I am referring to Exodus 33:7-11 but considering the relationship of Moses to God overall. The title could also be applied to Abraham as Tony rightly notes.

God’s Servant or His Friend? – RT Kendall Ministries

firedragon said:

5. You are still not clear what you believe about Jesus being the Son of God. You said its a mystery. So you want me to leave it at that?

Click to expand...

For me, Jesus being Son of God is more about a theological narrative rather than literal son of god that’s rightfully rejected by the Quran. However it is an essential narrative of the NT along with the crucifixion and resurrection we can continue to reflect on so as to better understand the ministry of Jesus. I would invite any friend to share in the Joy of learning about His Holiness Jesus the Christ. It is a journey that unfolds for each of us, each according to our capacity.

As a spiritual Healer study, I realise that HUMAN DNA or Genesis/genetics can only be studied for self human inference, by a self present alive and living human, in a science reference.

Human DNA does not exist before its owned self...for you have to remove information from the present body to study it in its living life body.

Science knows in Genetics that a living ape does not own the life/cell presence and natural form human being. And the body Ape was a reference of inference in ancient Genetics. For their GODS were of the anima.

How genetic science was self referenced to question why did the bio life be sacrificed in the cell process of stigmata. Chemical cell changes to gain the perfume and also unnatural bleeding out of the body cells.

When we all share and live in the exact same model. Natural light, water and oxygen cooled gas mass light atmosphere. Common human sense.

So if everyone today said, instead of using the old science quotes of God the stone, just infer Earth the planet in your reasoning, and then the references might make more sense.

Science said I was using the pyramid Temple science for transmutation of the Earth stone mass. I used gold as my ancient commodity and so I knew that if I could reproduce gold as a product, then I would be rich and own control of life and trade on Earth. The same human mentality.

Yet if you think about where gold is, it involves huge pressure upon the planet form and it involved melt to own a flow in a seam.

Seam and sewing, inferences to the plate tectonics and sewing.

+ the cross is an addition review in maths also as a symbol and + SEWN.

Which would then bring to your attention the ancients in fact increased and transmitted extra radiation radio waves to own above ground changes to stone mass fusion. The title SION.

If a human asks a question of self designer, and machine controller, did the machine become an extension of your bio life. For a male your own bio life extension is both a penis as a Creator and then a gain of your own human baby male life?

Then you would begin to realise the reasoning about baby Jesus reborn in human genetics due to the stone Messengers in the cosmology coming to Earth releasing stone mass, leaving coloured gases instead. And how that release from the Moses mutation eradication of life/genetics to the newly emerging re application of the sciences involves DNA healing and returning to own higher conscious human awareness.

About science, gases, that science said was spirit as compared to mass....and then realize that you are your own life destroyer. And then read documents that said to believe that God is holy is a self contradiction, for changing God the body of, when God already owned natural disasters that could kill all life of in one activation...as a planet, and then claim self was sensible and spiritual?

The answer in human Genetics, was no, nothing sensible about you believing that from Moses to self gained returned and healed human genetics that the knowledge of what you lost to what you regained was then used against you in science converting.

So then the wandering star Messenger is proven to have changed and given advice once again.....due to life having irradiated sacrificed its own human self.

Science does not own any sensible logical reasoning as a human...for when you claim that you are copying natural, your conscious self already advised you.

And anyone with logic knows you cannot copy what natural history owned forming in a natural history. It is not sensible to claim that you can.

Therefore if a human looks on the ground today and sees an alien face, then automatically he should claim, seems like I destroyed my own cloud image man feed back. For I am not any alien. Which is what the OCCULT theme is...radiation science attack on self.

I have problems defining manifestation.
So I have to Google it and this came up

Dictionary
Search for a word
man·i·fes·ta·tion
/ˌmanəfəˈstāSH(ə)n,ˌmanəˌfesˈtāSH(ə)n/

noun

1. an event, action, or object that clearly shows or embodies something, especially a theory or an abstract idea. "the first obvious manifestations of global warming"
2. the action or fact of showing an abstract idea. "the manifestation of anxiety over the upcoming exams"
3. a symptom or sign of an ailment. "a characteristic manifestation of Lyme disease"
4. a version or incarnation of something or someone. "Purity and Innocence and Young Love in all their gentle manifestations"
5. an appearance of a ghost or spirit.

Jesus Christ is not an event, action or object - so 1 is not it
Jesus Christ is not the action or fact of an abstract idea - so 2 isn't right
Jesus Christ is not a symptom or sign of a disease - 3 is outta here
Jesus Christ is not a version or incarnation of God - no way 4
Jesus Christ is not an appearance of a ghost and not a spirit - 5 is trash.

Therefore Jesus Christ is not a manifestation
If Jesus Christ is not a manifestation, what is he?



John 8:39-40 Expanded Bible (EXB)
They answered, “Our father is Abraham.”

Jesus said to them, “If you were really Abraham’s children, you would do the things Abraham did. I am a man who has told you the truth which I heard from God, but you are trying to kill me. Abraham did nothing like that.

Jesus is not a manifestation
Jesus said he is a man
Jesus distinguishes himself from God by saying
I am a man who has told you the truth which I heard from God
He did not say I am a manifestation but a man
He did not say I am the God who told you the truth which I heard from myself

Who should we believe?
Jesus Christ or someone else?

How about the apostles did they believe Jesus Christ is a manifestation or a man or a god-man or God himself?



Acts 2:14; 22 New International Version (NIV)
Then Peter stood up with the Eleven, raised his voice and addressed the crowd: “Fellow Jews and all of you who live in Jerusalem, let me explain this to you; listen carefully to what I say.

“Fellow Israelites, listen to this: Jesus of Nazareth was a man accredited by God to you by miracles, wonders and signs, which God did among you through him, as you yourselves know.

Peter did not say Jesus of Nazareth was a manifestation.
The Bible says Peter said Jesus of Nazareth was a man approved by God
God shown he approved of Jesus with the miracles, wonders and signs which God performed
through Jesus

So what is a manifestation?
I know that this does not refer to Jesus written in the Bible.