No Rituals or Miracles

CriticalThinking · Jul 5, 2020

Rival said:
Yes, I'm just telling you the point of why they exist in the first place.

Edit: I have a shoe tying ritual. It's done in accordance with other tying rituals related to faith. It reminds me of G-d, and thinking of G-d inturn reminds me that He's watching and I need to keep myself good. It's not about pleasing G-d by tying my shoes a certain way.

I believe that God orders always have wisdom behind them, If something is from God there should be no better or equivalent alternatives ? which is not the case for rituals ?

Deeje said:
Did you know that Jesus and his apostles foretold that Christianity would be corrupted in the same way that the Jewish religion was sold out to the ideas and traditions of its leaders? (Matthew 15:7-9)

Just as Judaism was no longer the religion founded by God at Mt Sinai when Jesus came, (Matthew 23:37-39) and he was under instruction to lead “the lost sheep” out of that corrupted system, so at the time of his return, he would lead other “lost sheep” out of another corrupted system....Christendom. (2 Peter 2:1; Acts 20:30)

I believe that Christendom, with their fake miracles (the low success rate proves that it is nothing like the ones that took place in the first century) and their empty rituals, where people might turn up at a building and go through the motions of some kind of worship, but then leave their ‘Christianity’ at the door on their way out....or else they take their beliefs to a ridiculous form of fanaticism so that it becomes a burden rather than a ‘refreshment’. (Matthew 11:28-30) That was never going to please the God who reads hearts, not just minds....and expects a certain standard of behavior that he has never changed.

What you are searching for exists......but you have to find them.
Like the first century, Christ’s true disciples are comparatively small in numbers and unpopular (even hated) because they are different to the masses. (Matthew 15:18-21)

No one can come to God unless they acknowledge the teachings of his son, (John 14:6) and no one can come to the son unless it is granted by the Father ...(John 6:44; John 6:65)

In this time of the end, God is separating the “sheep from the goats”. We are telling him every day whether we are one or the other.

“Seek and you will find”, Jesus said....but it helps to know what you are looking for.

I don't think that God have a son, I mean why would he ?

sun rise · Jul 5, 2020

CriticalThinking said:
I m just curious about faiths that doesn't include Rituals or Miracles,

What's a miracle anyway? Is it "juggling" with capabilities unknown to the vast majority? That's not a real miracle to me. Yes, in the East, I believe there are those with powers, siddhis, which can be learned through endless practices but why bother? Is someone a better person by showing off that "I can do this but you can't ha ha?"

To me the real miracles are 'ordinary' as the song "Ordinary Miracle" is about

Life is like a gift they say
Wrapped up for you everyday
Open up and find a way
To give some of your own

Isn't it remarkable?
Like every time a rain drop falls
It's just another ordinary miracle today

Rival · Jul 5, 2020

CriticalThinking said:
I believe that God orders always have wisdom behind them, If something is from God there should be no better or equivalent alternatives ? which is not the case for rituals ?

G-d's wisdom is well above ours and we should always expect his directives to make sense.

CriticalThinking · Jul 5, 2020

sun rise said:
What's a miracle anyway? Is it "juggling" with capabilities unknown to the vast majority? That's not a real miracle to me. Yes, in the East, I believe there are those with powers, siddhis, which can be learned through endless practices but why bother? Is someone a better person by showing off that "I can do this but you can't ha ha?"

To me the real miracles are 'ordinary' as the song "Ordinary Miracle" is about

Life is like a gift they say
Wrapped up for you everyday
Open up and find a way
To give some of your own

Isn't it remarkable?
Like every time a rain drop falls
It's just another ordinary miracle today

I mean by miracles those that breaks the rules of physics so badly, like for example a flying horse going to the heavens

Rival said:
G-d's wisdom is well above ours and we should always expect his directives to make sense.

IMO If we don't know the wisdom behind something we can't be sure if it's an order from God, Because God gave us brains and he knows that we might seek reason behind each step, people don't wake up in the morning and start clapping without a reason, but if some one said that God ordered us to clap at each morning, some people may actually fall in that trap, for that reason i believe God orders have a wisdom that we can grasp it on earth not in the hereafter or else any thing can be attributed to god under the flag of a "hidden" wisdom that actually doesn't exist ?

Deeje · Jul 5, 2020

CriticalThinking said:
I believe that God orders always have wisdom behind them, If something is from God there should be no better or equivalent alternatives ? which is not the case for rituals ?

I don't think that God have a son, I mean why would he ?

What do you actually know about God? Have you studied the Bible at all? It’s impossible to make informed decisions about something so important without all the information....

God obviously cannot produce a son like material beings produce offspring. But he uses relationships that humans can understand to illustrate the relationship between God and a completely separate being that he created. He is the “Father” figure and Jesus is a much loved son. Why is that difficult to understand?

Evangelicalhumanist · Jul 5, 2020

CriticalThinking said:
Hello everyone,
I hope that you are all having a good day

I m just curious about faiths that doesn't include Rituals or Miracles, I for myself don't believe in the existence of rituals or miracles but i still believe in the hereafter I believe that god created a system for this world and have set a bunch of rules ( physics, math... etc ) so i don't see why he would break them before the judgement day, and i believe in prophets as some kind of knowledgeable persons

Where i live almost every one practice rituals and believes in miracles and if they don't they probably don't believe in god / prophets

I'm curious if similar religions / beliefs exists, i know that there is deism but like i said i believe in prophets and books not like the traditional way but i still believe in them

I am fascinated by this. You've posted this in "Seekers Circle," which suggest that you really are looking for information.

And yet, you made it very clear that there's a whole bunch of stuff fot which you can't give any reason for believing, but that you believe anyway!

Evangelicalhumanist · Jul 5, 2020

danieldemol said:
Praying in the direction of the Qibla is also a ritual.

How interesting! Does this mean that God can't hear you if you're facing the wrong way?

sun rise · Jul 5, 2020

CriticalThinking said:
I mean by miracles those that breaks the rules of physics so badly, like for example a flying horse going to the heavens

That's what I was referring to with my mention of siddhis. There are endless accounts in the East of people with such abilities. And there are uncounted fakes who fool people by using fake miracles to satisfy lower motives.

I've had a very very few examples of such in my life. One night I knew that a dear friend who lived far away died. I did not know this person was even ill. That knowledge was confirmed a few days later. That experience did not make me a better person in any way that I know but did confirm for me that such things happen.

For Muslims there's the story of Moses and Khidr which I accept not as a literal truth, but as an example of knowledge which can come through unexplained channels. And more importantly why miracles are meaningless without knowledge.

My beliefs are further underlined by this story of Rabi'a and Hasan. It underlines for me that the ability to do things which violate the known laws of the universe is not a sign of meaningful attainment:

HASAN came upon Rabia one day when she was sitting among a number of contemplators, and said: ‘I have the capacity of walking on water. Come, let us both go on to that water yonder, and sitting upon it carry out a spiritual discussion.’

Rabia said: ‘If you wish to separate yourself from this august company, why do you not come with me, so that we may fly into the air, and sit there talking?’

Hasan said: ‘I cannot do that, for the power which you mention is not one which I possess.’

Rabia said: ‘Your power of remaining still in the water is one which is possessed by fish. My capacity, of flying in the air, can be done by a fly. These abilities are no part of real truth – they may become the foundation of self-esteem and competitiveness, not spirituality.’

InvestigateTruth · Jul 5, 2020

CriticalThinking said:
Hello everyone,
I hope that you are all having a good day

I m just curious about faiths that doesn't include Rituals or Miracles, I for myself don't believe in the existence of rituals or miracles but i still believe in the hereafter I believe that god created a system for this world and have set a bunch of rules ( physics, math... etc ) so i don't see why he would break them before the judgement day, and i believe in prophets as some kind of knowledgeable persons

Where i live almost every one practice rituals and believes in miracles and if they don't they probably don't believe in god / prophets

I'm curious if similar religions / beliefs exists, i know that there is deism but like i said i believe in prophets and books not like the traditional way but i still believe in them

In Bahai Faith there are less Rituals. The importance of Miracles is less in Bahai Faith. But, if you want a religion who believes in God with no Rituals I am not sure if it exist

February-Saturday · Jul 5, 2020

There are plenty of Deists and Pantheists that still believe in their scriptures without the miracles and rituals. I don't know the specifics of it in Islam, but there are "cultural Christians" who follow the "Jesusism" in the Jeffersonian Bible, which focuses on the philosophical teachings of Jesus rather than the miracles and metaphysics.

There are also Satanists, Luciferians, and Thelemites that view their religion as mostly philosophy without ever doing any rituals or ceremonies.

Mindmaster · Jul 5, 2020

CriticalThinking said:
Hello everyone,
I hope that you are all having a good day

I m just curious about faiths that doesn't include Rituals or Miracles, I for myself don't believe in the existence of rituals or miracles but i still believe in the hereafter I believe that god created a system for this world and have set a bunch of rules ( physics, math... etc ) so i don't see why he would break them before the judgement day, and i believe in prophets as some kind of knowledgeable persons

Why do people do most things? They feel good. Some believe it is their duty, etc.

Personally, I found them to be valuable early on in my path when I had trouble connecting to something, but after a while... I didn't need to make those connections with anything but my mind. I don't view them as something that must be continually done, but maybe at the start where your mind interferes with your vibes. If you still have to do them much later I would feel you aren't fully committing and are sort of "stalling" or "pretending" for some other reason.

Anyway, I'd feel sort of silly in a way to do a ritual now because it's almost like doing a ritual to yourself being ignorant of how big your "Self" really is. As is often the case...

As far as miracles? They're all around you, it's just whatever ones you feel like paying attention to. They happen every day.

danieldemol · Jul 5, 2020

CriticalThinking said:
Well, now i can't lie to myself and say "oh if i do this i will please my god" and I'm inside so sure its just some human made practices that has no real sense

I don't hate people with different belief i hate the damage they cause , i was once a guy who believes in rituals and miracles and i know its hard for some people who spent years from their life believing in something to hear some one with a different opinion, I know some people who only lessen to their religious leaders and in fact that's not a good thing, For example where i leave the government decided to shutdown all mosques because of covid-19 but one imam decided to not lessen and people actually followed him, and ended up by gov shutting it down by force, so i think its a good idea to advice people to rethink a bit from time to time or else things will end badly.

Totally agree with the last sentence

I never read the Gospel of John, i might take a look at this to discover it more

Yes it is, i never said the opposite, i don't practice it any more since a long time

I don't believe that god ordered us to do any rituals, i believe that god orders always have a wisdom behind them, which is something can't be found in rituals, for example when i asked why the 5 prayers was 5 and not 4 or 3 etc... i couldn't find any reasonable answer, all i was told is to follow the orders and believe in some kind of a "hidden" wisdom in the number 5, I do believe that God ordered us to be righteous and good to others as much as we can because that clearly helps society flourish

Maybe you are a liberal Abrahamic.

Being a liberal is not necessarily to be part of a religion, it is just following your own path to God

Twilight Hue · Jul 5, 2020

CriticalThinking said:
Hello everyone,
I hope that you are all having a good day

I m just curious about faiths that doesn't include Rituals or Miracles, I for myself don't believe in the existence of rituals or miracles but i still believe in the hereafter I believe that god created a system for this world and have set a bunch of rules ( physics, math... etc ) so i don't see why he would break them before the judgement day, and i believe in prophets as some kind of knowledgeable persons

Where i live almost every one practice rituals and believes in miracles and if they don't they probably don't believe in god / prophets

I'm curious if similar religions / beliefs exists, i know that there is deism but like i said i believe in prophets and books not like the traditional way but i still believe in them

I would suggest just carrying water and chopping wood, but even that has its ritual.

Aupmanyav · Jul 6, 2020

Quintessence said:
Well, religious practices are futile if one doesn't understand the context from which they originate and the intention behind them. A lot of people practice religion shallowly -

I differ with you. I do not have rituals because I am following my belief very thoroughly. It says one substrate, entity constitutes all things in the universe (Brahman, which is not God) and there is no other. That is why I am an atheist. And if I am an atheist, then I have no God to worship. I understand the context and intention of the belief that I follow very clearly. Some others in the forum also follow my belief but they are not as thorough as I am. That is why I term myself as an 'orthodox advaitist'.

blü 2 · Jul 6, 2020

CriticalThinking said:
Hello everyone,
I hope that you are all having a good day

I m just curious about faiths that doesn't include Rituals or Miracles, I for myself don't believe in the existence of rituals or miracles but i still believe in the hereafter I believe that god created a system for this world and have set a bunch of rules ( physics, math... etc ) so i don't see why he would break them before the judgement day, and i believe in prophets as some kind of knowledgeable persons

Where i live almost every one practice rituals and believes in miracles and if they don't they probably don't believe in god / prophets

I'm curious if similar religions / beliefs exists, i know that there is deism but like i said i believe in prophets and books not like the traditional way but i still believe in them

I'm still waiting to see an authentic miracle.

But meanwhile, rituals are very human things.

My father taught me that when you gather for an occasion, it's not an occasion unless and until someone for a few minutes takes the MC's role and speaks, or calls for speakers, to the occasion,

And nearly all cultures have ceremonies / rituals / marked occasions for rites of passage ─ for naming the infant, for coming of age, for marriage, for particular successes, for death. for remembrance.

So no surprise if we find them in religions, or being expressed in religious terms.

CriticalThinking · Jul 6, 2020

Deeje said:
What do you actually know about God? Have you studied the Bible at all? It’s impossible to make informed decisions about something so important without all the information....

God obviously cannot produce a son like material beings produce offspring. But he uses relationships that humans can understand to illustrate the relationship between God and a completely separate being that he created. He is the “Father” figure and Jesus is a much loved son. Why is that difficult to understand?

I Believe that god is the First and the Last and There is nothing like unto Him and He is over all things competent
I read a small part of the bible, so i don't know a lot about it

I mean what is the proof that God figure is a "Father" and Jesus is a much loved "son" and not something else ?

Evangelicalhumanist said:
I am fascinated by this. You've posted this in "Seekers Circle," which suggest that you really are looking for information.

And yet, you made it very clear that there's a whole bunch of stuff fot which you can't give any reason for believing, but that you believe anyway!

I can give a reason for every thing i believe in, but not sure if all my reasons are correct, I m sure of many things but on the other hand there are many things i still don't know for sure

sun rise said:
That's what I was referring to with my mention of siddhis. There are endless accounts in the East of people with such abilities. And there are uncounted fakes who fool people by using fake miracles to satisfy lower motives.

I've had a very very few examples of such in my life. One night I knew that a dear friend who lived far away died. I did not know this person was even ill. That knowledge was confirmed a few days later. That experience did not make me a better person in any way that I know but did confirm for me that such things happen.

For Muslims there's the story of Moses and Khidr which I accept not as a literal truth, but as an example of knowledge which can come through unexplained channels. And more importantly why miracles are meaningless without knowledge.

My beliefs are further underlined by this story of Rabi'a and Hasan. It underlines for me that the ability to do things which violate the known laws of the universe is not a sign of meaningful attainment:

HASAN came upon Rabia one day when she was sitting among a number of contemplators, and said: ‘I have the capacity of walking on water. Come, let us both go on to that water yonder, and sitting upon it carry out a spiritual discussion.’

Rabia said: ‘If you wish to separate yourself from this august company, why do you not come with me, so that we may fly into the air, and sit there talking?’

Hasan said: ‘I cannot do that, for the power which you mention is not one which I possess.’

Rabia said: ‘Your power of remaining still in the water is one which is possessed by fish. My capacity, of flying in the air, can be done by a fly. These abilities are no part of real truth – they may become the foundation of self-esteem and competitiveness, not spirituality.’

I believe there an explanation for every thing, it's just that sometimes we lack clues that guide us ?

InvestigateTruth said:
In Bahai Faith there are less Rituals. The importance of Miracles is less in Bahai Faith. But, if you want a religion who believes in God with no Rituals I am not sure if it exist

A religion or a belief too

February-Saturday said:
There are plenty of Deists and Pantheists that still believe in their scriptures without the miracles and rituals. I don't know the specifics of it in Islam, but there are "cultural Christians" who follow the "Jesusism" in the Jeffersonian Bible, which focuses on the philosophical teachings of Jesus rather than the miracles and metaphysics.

There are also Satanists, Luciferians, and Thelemites that view their religion as mostly philosophy without ever doing any rituals or ceremonies.

Then, I guess i m closer to deism than a traditional religion

Mindmaster said:
Why do people do most things? They feel good. Some believe it is their duty, etc.

Personally, I found them to be valuable early on in my path when I had trouble connecting to something, but after a while... I didn't need to make those connections with anything but my mind. I don't view them as something that must be continually done, but maybe at the start where your mind interferes with your vibes. If you still have to do them much later I would feel you aren't fully committing and are sort of "stalling" or "pretending" for some other reason.

Anyway, I'd feel sort of silly in a way to do a ritual now because it's almost like doing a ritual to yourself being ignorant of how big your "Self" really is. As is often the case...

As far as miracles? They're all around you, it's just whatever ones you feel like paying attention to. They happen every day.

I always look for a reason to do something, I never liked doing something without knowing why is it done in a specific way and not another, and for the miracles i m talking about are those that breaks physics rules so badly like the old myths, i don't think they are any where around.

danieldemol said:
Maybe you are a liberal Abrahamic.

Being a liberal is not necessarily to be part of a religion, it is just following your own path to God

I never heard of liberal Abrahamic before, do they believe in all "prophets" ?

Nowhere Man said:
I would suggest just carrying water and chopping wood, but even that has its ritual.

At least that can be useful and makes sense ?

blü 2 said:
I'm still waiting to see an authentic miracle.

But meanwhile, rituals are very human things.

My father taught me that when you gather for an occasion, it's not an occasion unless and until someone for a few minutes takes the MC's role and speaks, or calls for speakers, to the occasion,

And nearly all cultures have ceremonies / rituals / marked occasions for rites of passage ─ for naming the infant, for coming of age, for marriage, for particular successes, for death. for remembrance.

So no surprise if we find them in religions, or being expressed in religious terms.

I agree, rituals are very human things, that's why i don't like considering them as God orders

PureX · Jul 6, 2020

[QUOTE="CriticalThinking, post: 6727518, member: 67798"I don't hate people with different belief i hate the damage they cause , i was once a guy who believes in rituals and miracles and i know its hard for some people who spent years from their life believing in something to hear some one with a different opinion, I know some people who only lessen to their religious leaders and in fact that's not a good thing, For example where i leave the government decided to shutdown all mosques because of covid-19 but one imam decided to not lessen and people actually followed him, and ended up by gov shutting it down by force, so i think its a good idea to advice people to rethink a bit from time to time or else things will end badly.[/QUOTE]In the end, everyone chooses what they're going to believe. No one can control the mind of another. So when you see people continually choosing beliefs that harm them, or others, remember that they ARE choosing them. And that they have that right, even when it's harmful.

I am a recovered alcoholic. I feel the pain of other's alcoholism, deeply, because I have experienced it, myself. But I cannot heal their addiction. And I understand why I cannot. Because a person has to want to be healed, and be willing to do what it takes. And most alcoholics don't want to be healed, or are willing to do what it takes.

That's just the way it is. All I can be is an example to them to show them that it is possible to get and stay sober. Maybe they will want what I have enough to ask for help and do the work. Beyond that, I am powerless. People have the right to be self-destructive. And although we can pass laws stopping them from being destructive of others, we can't guarantee they won't be.

All I'm saying is to remember to be humble, and hopeful, and to respect the right of others to be the flawed beings that we all are.

CriticalThinking · Jul 6, 2020

PureX said:
In the end, everyone chooses what they're going to believe. No one can control the mind of another. So when you see people continually choosing beliefs that harm them, or others, remember that they ARE choosing them. And that they have that right, even when it's harmful.

I am a recovered alcoholic. I feel the pain of other's alcoholism, deeply, because I have experienced it, myself. But I cannot heal their addiction. And I understand why I cannot. Because a person has to want to be healed, and be willing to do what it takes. And most alcoholics don't want to be healed, or are willing to do what it takes.

That's just the way it is. All I can be is an example to them to show them that it is possible to get and stay sober. Maybe they will want what I have enough to ask for help and do the work. Beyond that, I am powerless. People have the right to be self-destructive. And although we can pass laws stopping them from being destructive of others, we can't guarantee they won't be.

All I'm saying is to remember to be humble, and hopeful, and to respect the right of others to be the flawed beings that we all are.

I do not agree on letting people harm others, that's not a good thing to do, and i never said that i m with forcing people to believe in something, all i m saying i m with forcing people to not harm others, or else we will become in a forest, other than that i respect the others right to do what ever they want, i m not responsible for what they do, and every one is responsible for himself

PureX · Jul 6, 2020

CriticalThinking said:
I do not agree on letting people harm others, that's not a good thing to do, and i never said that i m with forcing people to believe in something, all i m saying i m with forcing people to not harm others, or else we will become in a forest, other than that i respect the others right to do what ever they want, i m not responsible for what they do, and every one is responsible for himself

The people you're talking about think YOU are the harmful one. We make laws that try to protect us all from the selfishness of each other, but those laws can't control what people think and do, they can only create consequences after the fact. You are one individual among many. Your idea of what is right is one idea among many.

CriticalThinking · Jul 6, 2020

PureX said:
The people you're talking about think YOU are the harmful one. We make laws that try to protect us all from the selfishness of each other, but those laws can't control what people think and do, they can only create consequences after the fact. You are one individual among many. Your idea of what is right is one idea among many.

I never said that my idea of what is harmful should be applied, I m talking about what is proven to be harmful by facts, I don't think that two sane people can't agree that for example killing people for not doing rituals is something bad ...

No Rituals or Miracles

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