Jesus Said "It Is Finished"

Nova2216 said:

When I read (Joshua 23:14) I see serious problems for those who teach Premillennialism.

The Premillennialist teach the Jews will come back to the "Holy Land" and Jesus will return and then establish His kingdom literally on earth. This is all based on the assumption that the Lord did not keep His promises to those in OT times.

1. (Joshua 23:14) proves the Lord did do all He promised.

... not one thing hath failed of all the good things which the LORD your God spake concerning you; all are come to pass unto you, and not one thing hath failed thereof.

2. The Kingdom was established in (Acts 2) according to (Jer.31:31-34) (Heb.8:6-13) (Dan.2:44) (Isa. 2:1-5) (Joel.2:28) (Luke 24:44-49) (Acts 1:5,8) (Acts 2:1-4 ; 2:38,47) (Col.1:13).


3. The church = The kingdom (Mt.16:18).

Some were placed into the kingdom in (Col.1:13).

Some were placed into the church (Acts 2:38,47) (Acts 8:5,12,13,26-40)


4. Since the kingdom (church) was established in (Acts 2) "with power" there is no use in looking to the future for a coming LITERAL kingdom when Jesus returns.

The kingdom is not literal it is rather spiritual.

(Jn 18:36) - My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

(Luke 17:21) - the kingdom of God is within you

(Col.1:13) - 13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom

Thanks

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Nova2216 said:

Rob - God promised Israel an actual, physical kingdom in the OT.

Nova - Prove it. (Col.1:13) says different.

A spiritual kingdom cannot melt.

My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence (Jn 18:36)

the kingdom of God is within you (Luke 17:21)

13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
(Col.1:13)

You tell me how these three scriptures harmonize.

Thanks

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rrobs said:

2Sam 7:12,

And when thy days be fulfilled, and thou shalt sleep with thy fathers, I will set up thy seed after thee, which shall proceed out of thy bowels, and I will establish his kingdom.​

1Pet 1:11,

Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.​

The OT prophets knew that Jesus' coming would involve two parts, suffering and glory. Jesus claimed the fulfillment of the suffering, but not of the glory.

Luke 4:19-21,

19 To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.

20 And he closed the book, and he gave [it] again to the minister, and sat down. And the eyes of all them that were in the synagogue were fastened on him.

21 And he began to say unto them, This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears.​

Verse 19 is from Isaiah.

Isa 61:1-2,

1 The Spirit of the Lord GOD [is] upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to [them that are] bound;

2 To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn;
​

Why did Jesus, quoting Isaiah, stop in the middle of a sentence? Luke shows Jesus quoting the first part of Isaiah 61:2, but not the next part. He mentioned the acceptable year having been fulfilled, but not the day of vengeance.

If the kingdom God promised Israel has already been established, what's the point of the Book of Revelation? If it were already established there would hardly be any need for a day of vengeance.

Another angle to consider: there is a principle in the scriptures where God says things are done before they are actually done.

Rom 4:17,

(As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, [even] God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.​

When God says something will be, it's as good as done. We even use the expression, "It's as good as done" before it's even begun. It just shows the certainty of future events. At times God speaks of the kingdom as fully established, but like I said, if it that is a present reality, then the kingdom will melt and lost in the establishment of the new heavens and new earth. His everlasting kingdom will be on the new earth, not this one.

Since the church of the body was a secret in the OT (including the gospels), any reference to a kingdom is not a reference to the church. The kingdom was freely discussed in the OT, the church was a secret that nobody knew. That alone ought to show the church of the body and the kingdom are two radically different things.

Rev 12:10,

And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
​

According to this the accuser will be cast down before the kingdom of God comes. You're not suggesting that the devil has been cast down already, that the events in Revelation prior to this verse have already occured?

In general, you don't seem to put any difference between God's dealing with the Jews, Gentiles, and church (of the body).

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lostwanderingsoul said:

Could I ask your beliefs on something please? Do you believe that the souls or spirits of dead people are right now today in heaven and can look down and watch us? And are the souls or spirits of evil people right now today suffering torture in a place of fire and brimstone? Or are all souls or spirits waiting in their graves for the return of Christ to give them new life and judge them to decide if they will then go to heaven or hell? I would truly like your views. Thanks

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rrobs said:

2Sam 7:12,

And when thy days be fulfilled, and thou shalt sleep with thy fathers, I will set up thy seed after thee, which shall proceed out of thy bowels, and I will establish his kingdom.​

1Pet 1:11,

Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.​

The OT prophets knew that Jesus' coming would involve two parts, suffering and glory. Jesus claimed the fulfillment of the suffering, but not of the glory.

Luke 4:19-21,

19 To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.

20 And he closed the book, and he gave [it] again to the minister, and sat down. And the eyes of all them that were in the synagogue were fastened on him.

21 And he began to say unto them, This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears.​

Verse 19 is from Isaiah.

Isa 61:1-2,

1 The Spirit of the Lord GOD [is] upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to [them that are] bound;

2 To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn;
​

Why did Jesus, quoting Isaiah, stop in the middle of a sentence? Luke shows Jesus quoting the first part of Isaiah 61:2, but not the next part. He mentioned the acceptable year having been fulfilled, but not the day of vengeance.

If the kingdom God promised Israel has already been established, what's the point of the Book of Revelation? If it were already established there would hardly be any need for a day of vengeance.

Another angle to consider: there is a principle in the scriptures where God says things are done before they are actually done.

Rom 4:17,

(As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, [even] God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.​

When God says something will be, it's as good as done. We even use the expression, "It's as good as done" before it's even begun. It just shows the certainty of future events. At times God speaks of the kingdom as fully established, but like I said, if it that is a present reality, then the kingdom will melt and lost in the establishment of the new heavens and new earth. His everlasting kingdom will be on the new earth, not this one.

Since the church of the body was a secret in the OT (including the gospels), any reference to a kingdom is not a reference to the church. The kingdom was freely discussed in the OT, the church was a secret that nobody knew. That alone ought to show the church of the body and the kingdom are two radically different things.

Rev 12:10,

And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
​

According to this the accuser will be cast down before the kingdom of God comes. You're not suggesting that the devil has been cast down already, that the events in Revelation prior to this verse have already occured?

In general, you don't seem to put any difference between God's dealing with the Jews, Gentiles, and church (of the body).

Click to expand...

rrobs said:

God said Adam and Eve would die.

Gen 2:17,

But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
​

The devil said they would not die.

Gen 3:4,

And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
​

I vote for God. Furthermore, the scriptures say there is no consciousness in death, so no eternal joy nor eternal sorrow in death. Dead is dead.

The scriptures also call death an enemy. Going straight to heaven after one dies would hardly qualify death as an enemy.

Whenever I hear a Pastor say God took someone's 2 month old baby because He wanted another angel or flower in heaven, I always think they are really saying, "God murdered the 2 month old baby because He was selfish and didn't care a whit about the poor baby's parents." That, of course, is a major crock of you know what!

The dead are dead. They will all be made alive and face judgment when Jesus returns. Some will enter the new earth and some will get thrown into a lake of fire. Hmmm, I wonder what would happen to someone who was thrown into a lake of fire? I know, they die again! The phrase "second death" is mentioned 4 times in Revelation. There is no indication that this death is any different than the first death. Like the first death, the second death is also a place of no consciousness, hence no eternal suffering. They will simply go away and not enjoy the new heavens and new earth.

There is a third possibility and that is become a Christian. Every Christian has already been judged in Christ and found as righteous as God Himself (Rom 3:22). We have been sealed unto the day of redemption. That is why we will meet the Lord in the air before he even comes down to earth (1 Thess 4:17) for the other judgments of all other people who did not or could not accept Jesus. Obviously all those born before Jesus could not have been born again Christians. That doesn't mean they are doomed. Instead they will be resurrected and judged according to their hearts and actions. The new earth will be populated with Christians as well as non-Christians who lived a good life. Jesus will be the judge, so he will certainly judge rightly. That takes care of the 2 month old baby as well as the Amazonian Indian who never heard of Jesus. As long as they lived a decent life (and the baby did nothing wrong for sure), they will be in the new paradise. It will be up to Jesus to decide.

All in all, it is much better to confess Jesus as Lord and believe God raised him from the dead. That makes a person a Christian and gives them a guaranteed spot in the new paradise. No need to wait for a future judgment like the non-Christians. Settle the matter right here and right now.

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Nova2216 said:

* Rob - If the kingdom God promised Israel has already been established, what's the point of the Book of Revelation? If it were already established there would hardly be any need for a day of vengeance.

Nova - The intent of the book of Revelation is found in the very first three verses in the book (Rev.1:1-3).

The early Christians were being warned about the tribulations they were about to go through and they were encouraged to stay faithful to Christ.

(Rev.1:1-3)

John was given a message from God.

of things which must shortly come to pass (not 2000 yrs later)

These things were "signified" put in "SIGNS" or apocalyptic language.(not literal)

If one misses that point they miss they whole point of the book.



You find a Dragon with his tail knocking stars out of the sky.

Re 12:4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.
(KJV)

Is this literal?


The book of Revelation was wrote to those 7 churches in Asia according to (Rev.1:11).

Rev.Chapters 1-3 addresses those members of the church in Rome going through the tribulation during the first century according to (Rev.1:9).

Notice what John says.

I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ

John says he is going through the tribulation and he is also in the kinogdom (in the first century)

After chapters 1-3 we read the Apocalyptic language (signs) all throughout the rest of the book. (not literal).

To interpret the rest of the book as literal is a gross error.



Rob - Since the church of the body was a secret in the OT (including the gospels), any reference to a kingdom is not a reference to the church. The kingdom was freely discussed in the OT, the church was a secret that nobody knew. That alone ought to show the church of the body and the kingdom are two radically different things.


Nova - Again you use the phrase - 'the church of the body".

What do you mean?

(Eph.1:22,23) and (Col.1:18,24) shows the "CHURCH" is the "BODY".

18 And he is the head of the body, the church:...

22 And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church, 23 Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.

The word "CHURCH" just means a group of people gathered together for a specific purpose.

The church in the OT is not the NT church established in (Acts 2:1-4).



Rob - In general, you don't seem to put any difference between God's dealing with the Jews, Gentiles, and church (of the body).

Nova - We went over this in (Gal.3:26-29).

All (Jews / Gentiles) are one in Christ Church (or kingdom)

POST # 707

It seems God deals with Jew and Gentile the same according to (Gal.3:26-28)

But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.


Notice -

vs 23 is speaking about those under the OT Law (Jews).

vs 25 no longer are they under the OT Law (Jews)

vs 26 All (everyone - Jew / Gentile) are now children of God by faith in Christ.

vs 27 As many as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ

vs 28 neither Jew or Greek... for ye are ALL one in Christ. (Jew / Gentile).

vs 29 Now both (Jew / Gentile) are heirs to the promise if ye be Christ's.



Thanks

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lostwanderingsoul said:

I child is formed when a sperm and egg join. But the child is not born for nine months. People may be children of God but not yet born.

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rrobs said:

God said Adam and Eve would die.

Gen 2:17,

But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
​

The devil said they would not die.

Gen 3:4,

And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
​

I vote for God. Furthermore, the scriptures say there is no consciousness in death, so no eternal joy nor eternal sorrow in death. Dead is dead.

The scriptures also call death an enemy. Going straight to heaven after one dies would hardly qualify death as an enemy.

Whenever I hear a Pastor say God took someone's 2 month old baby because He wanted another angel or flower in heaven, I always think they are really saying, "God murdered the 2 month old baby because He was selfish and didn't care a whit about the poor baby's parents." That, of course, is a major crock of you know what!

The dead are dead. They will all be made alive and face judgment when Jesus returns. Some will enter the new earth and some will get thrown into a lake of fire. Hmmm, I wonder what would happen to someone who was thrown into a lake of fire? I know, they die again! The phrase "second death" is mentioned 4 times in Revelation. There is no indication that this death is any different than the first death. Like the first death, the second death is also a place of no consciousness, hence no eternal suffering. They will simply go away and not enjoy the new heavens and new earth.

There is a third possibility and that is become a Christian. Every Christian has already been judged in Christ and found as righteous as God Himself (Rom 3:22). We have been sealed unto the day of redemption. That is why we will meet the Lord in the air before he even comes down to earth (1 Thess 4:17) for the other judgments of all other people who did not or could not accept Jesus. Obviously all those born before Jesus could not have been born again Christians. That doesn't mean they are doomed. Instead they will be resurrected and judged according to their hearts and actions. The new earth will be populated with Christians as well as non-Christians who lived a good life. Jesus will be the judge, so he will certainly judge rightly. That takes care of the 2 month old baby as well as the Amazonian Indian who never heard of Jesus. As long as they lived a decent life (and the baby did nothing wrong for sure), they will be in the new paradise. It will be up to Jesus to decide.

All in all, it is much better to confess Jesus as Lord and believe God raised him from the dead. That makes a person a Christian and gives them a guaranteed spot in the new paradise. No need to wait for a future judgment like the non-Christians. Settle the matter right here and right now.

Click to expand...

Nova2216 said:

Rob - All in all, it is much better to confess Jesus as Lord and believe God raised him from the dead. That makes a person a Christian and gives them a guaranteed spot in the new paradise.

Nova - Must one Repent to be saved? (Luke 13:3)

...except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish (Luke 13:3)


19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, (Acts 3:19)

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rrobs said:

Yes, we must repent. Repent means a change of mind. In this case it means to change one's mind from being their own lord and make Jesus lord instead.

Romans 10:9-10 IS repentance.​

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lostwanderingsoul said:

I child is formed when a sperm and egg join. But the child is not born for nine months. People may be children of God but not yet born.

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Nova2216 said:

"Repentance" is nowhere mentioned in (Rom.10:9,10).

One must go to another verse to learn about "repentance"

(Mt.21:28) -

A certain man had two sons; and he came to the first, and said, Son, go work to day in my vineyard. 29 He answered and said, I will not: but afterward he repented, and went. 30 And he came to the second, and said likewise. And he answered and said, I go, sir: and went not. 31 Whether of them twain did the will of his father? They say unto him, The first.

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lostwanderingsoul said:

Thanks. I like the logic of your answer. If you do not mind I may ask more questions.

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Nova2216 said:

The book of Revelation was wrote to those 7 churches in Asia according to (Rev.1:11)

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Again you use the phrase - 'the church of the body".

What do you mean?
(Eph.1:22,23) and (Col.1:18,24) shows the "CHURCH" is the "BODY".

18 And he is the head of the body, the church:...

22 And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church, 23 Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.

The word "CHURCH" just means a group of people gathered together for a specific purpose.

The church in the OT is not the NT church established in (Acts 2:1-4).

Click to expand...

All (Jews / Gentiles) are one in Christ Church (or kingdom)

It seems God deals with Jew and Gentile the same according to (Gal.3:26-28)

But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Notice -

vs 23 is speaking about those under the OT Law (Jews).

vs 25 no longer are they under the OT Law (Jews)

vs 26 All (everyone - Jew / Gentile) are now children of God by faith in Christ.

vs 27 As many as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ

vs 28 neither Jew or Greek... for ye are ALL one in Christ. (Jew / Gentile).

vs 29 Now both (Jew / Gentile) are heirs to the promise if ye be Christ's.
Thanks

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Nova2216 said:

A man and his son were in a car accident.

The father died.

The son was taken to the hospital.

The surgeon looks down at the young man and says -

"I cannot operate on him b/c he is my son"

How could this be?

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rrobs said:

I think God's word is the epitome of logic. I'll try to answer your questions as best as I can.

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