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So Jesus is not God?
- Thread starter Oeste
- Start date
Oeste
Well-Known Member
I suppose I could respond to a certain poster, but rather than shoot fish in a barrel I would prefer to get back to thread theme:
Here's the verse in the OP:
Romans 5:8:
We've framed Romans 5:8 with other New Testament scripture to help us out:
I also added one caveat...that you be able to hold scripture (New Testament) as authoritative (Post 43). With this in mind, how does an Arian/Unitarian/"Jesus ain't God" Christian answer the following question?:
Support your answer with relevant scripture, either from the New or Old Testaments. After all, this is the Biblical Debates subsection of Scriptural Debates.
This is easy enough when "Jesus IS God" but apparently impossible when he is not.
Here's the verse in the OP:
Romans 5:8:
We've framed Romans 5:8 with other New Testament scripture to help us out:
He who does not love does not know God, for God is love. (1 John 4:8)
Remember what I told you: ‘A servant is not greater than his master. (John 15:20)
Greater love has no one than this, than to lay down one’s life for his friends. (John 15:13)
Remember what I told you: ‘A servant is not greater than his master. (John 15:20)
Greater love has no one than this, than to lay down one’s life for his friends. (John 15:13)
I also added one caveat...that you be able to hold scripture (New Testament) as authoritative (Post 43). With this in mind, how does an Arian/Unitarian/"Jesus ain't God" Christian answer the following question?:
1. How does God show His love for us by asking Jesus to die? (Romans 5:8)
2. Who shows the greater love? The person who dies for you, or the person who sends that person to die? (John 15:13)
3. Since God is love (1 John 4:8) how does Jesus show greater love (John 15:13) than the source of love itself? (1 John 4:8)
4. How can Jesus show greater love (John 15:13) when a servant is not greater than his master? (John 15:20)
2. Who shows the greater love? The person who dies for you, or the person who sends that person to die? (John 15:13)
3. Since God is love (1 John 4:8) how does Jesus show greater love (John 15:13) than the source of love itself? (1 John 4:8)
4. How can Jesus show greater love (John 15:13) when a servant is not greater than his master? (John 15:20)
Support your answer with relevant scripture, either from the New or Old Testaments. After all, this is the Biblical Debates subsection of Scriptural Debates.
This is easy enough when "Jesus IS God" but apparently impossible when he is not.
moorea944
Well-Known Member
I"m still not understanding why you feel Jesus is God, esp looking at those verses that you posted.
[1. How does God show His love for us by asking Jesus to die? (Romans 5:8)]
Great question... First of all, why did Jesus have to die? Was that out of love or punishment?......
[2. Who shows the greater love? The person who dies for you, or the person who sends that person to die? (John 15:13) ]
But your comparing Jesus's love with God's love. Why are we doing this?
[3. Since God is love (1 John 4:8) how does Jesus show greater love (John 15:13) than the source of love itself? (1 John 4:8)]
He doesnt, what makes you think Jesus has greater love than his Heavenly Father? And why are we debating something like this?
[4. How can Jesus show greater love (John 15:13) when a servant is not greater than his master? (John 15:20)]
Do you really think Jesus is showing greater love more than the Creator of the Universe?
[This is easy enough when "Jesus IS God" but apparently impossible when he is not.]
Actually.. is the opposite. IT becomes impossible when you "make" Jesus God. When you look at Jesus being like us, conquering his nature prone to sin (Heb 2), what he did through his life and what he did on the cross, you totally understand about God's love and His righteousness.
If Jesus was God, which he is not....., then he couldnt have been tempted, or struggled in life. Scripture tells us that Jesus was like us, he had to be like us so he could conquer sin, which he did on the cross. We also learn that blood had to be shed, for without blood, there is no forgiveness of sin. Read Lev 16 too, Heb 9 goes with that. It wasnt that Jesus "needed" a sacrifice, he WAS the sacrifice!! What was done on the cross was done out of love by his father. God so loved the world that He gave His only son!! IF Jesus was God, then this wouldnt mean anything! How can a God die? How can a God struggle in live with the temptation to sin. Though Jesus never sinned, he still struggle with his nature. How did he overcome that? God was working "through" his son......
Oeste
Well-Known Member
Do you consider the NT authoritative or are you a skeptic? It might explain why
Great questions…but it doesn’t answer how God shows His love for us by asking Jesus to die.
Not at all. I’m simply asking “Who shows greater love…the person who dies for you, or the person who sends you to die?” You don't have to compare Jesus with God to answer the question.
Because this is a debate forum…it’s what we do.
This is simply a statement without basis.
Doesn't matter what I think, we're discussing what scripture states, and this is one of them:
Greater love has no one than this, than to lay down one’s life for his friends. (John 15:13)
Because this is a biblical debate forum…it’s what we do.
I'm thinking you haven't answered my question. What I'm looking for is not inquiry into what I think but how Arians resolve (exegete) these verses when Jesus is not God.
No @moore944, as you have most ably demonstrated, it's the converse of what you claim.
Look at all 4 questions again. How many were successfully answered? I count zero out of four.
We have 33 pages of text and still the OP remains unanswered.
IndigoChild5559
Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
Wow, it amazes me when I, a Jew, actually know more about Christian theology than a Christian, but in this case I do. It has to do with the Council of Chalcedon, which ruled that Jesus is fully God and fully man. You will hear most educated Christians affirm this -- both God and man.
I'm referring to all standard orthodox sects of Christianity, Protestant (including evanglicals and non-denominationals), Catholics, and Eastern Orthodox, all adhere to this Ecumenical Council. Those who claim to believe in Jesus but do not profess him to be fully God and fully man (such as the gnostics) are considered heretical by Christians.
What is commonly referred to as Moses' law is really God's law, spoken word for word to Moses, who wrote it down and delivered it to Israel on behalf of God. But the word's are God's.
This is just nonsense. The law regarding divorce was not a watering down due to complaining. There is nothing like that in the Torah.
Actually this concept exists in the Oral Torah. Rabbi Jonathan ben Joseph said: For it is holy unto you; I.e., it [the Sabbath] is committed to your hands, not you to its hands. - Talmud: Yoma 85b
Look, God says not to work on the Shabbat. As per Deuteronomy 17:8-13, the levites and elders (rabbis) have the God given authority to determine exactly what work and we are not to question them, on pain of death. Since work on the Tabernacle stopped on the Shabbat, they decided that "work" would mean all those labors used for the creation of the Tabernacle, including the making of the shewbread.
So yes, we don't cook. Why is that such a big deal? We cook in advance, so that the meal is ready just as Shabbat hits. Usually it includes something we can keep warm in a crockpot for Saturday, and special yummy treats to keep the day extra special. Shabbat is the only day that I let myself eat sugar.
Any time someone's life is at stake, we are REQUIRED to break Shabbat. That would include such things as doing surgery, making an emergency phone call, etc. Life comes first. There is nothing wrong with healing via prayer on the Shabbat. Hospitals are full of Jewish doctors on the Shabbat.
Many of the words of Jesus on the subject of healing are, in fact, derived from arguments used by Rabbi Eleazar ben Azariah (of Haggadah fame), Rabbi Akiva and especially Rabbi Ishmael, who was the first to be associated with the phrase pikuach nefesh, a phrase which he apparently invented for any action that saved life at the expense of any Jewish law.
https://www.thejc.com/judaism/features/why-doctors-can-heal-on-shabbat-1.65237
https://www.thejc.com/judaism/features/why-doctors-can-heal-on-shabbat-1.65237
So, the problem here is that you are not fully advised of Jewish law. You have obtained all your information from your gospels, which is a tiny snapshot of time, when these things were in the middle of formation.
Deuteronomy 13:1-5 warns us of false teachers who will come and invite us to worship false gods (like Jesus). It describes these false teachers as those who will teach against the commandments. Does that remind you of anyone? Say, Paul? This passage of scripture say do not listen to any teacher that teaches against to commandments. And you wonder why I don't listen to the NT!!!!
It seems to me that it is Christianity that fails in its teachings, pretty badly too.
God's word is for all time. Our covenant is everlasting.
The signs of the times today are pretty good. War and violence are down. The end is not near. I'm not expecting the messiah any time soon.
You say an awful lot about Paul. I'm not interested in Paul. He taught that the commandments bought a curse, and is therefore a false teacher.
You have listened to false teachers.
Genesis states that the Covenant between God and the Jews is EVERLASTING. That means the New Covenant cannot arrive until the World to Come.
Saving us is the job of God, not the messiah. Your whole idea that we need a human sacrifice is an abomination.
IndigoChild5559
Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
As I was just writing in another post, Deuteronomy 13:1-5 describes false teachers that will come and try to get us to worship other gods (like Jesus). It says we will know these false teachers because they will teach against the commandments. We are not to listen to them.
Who is it that taught against the commandments, who waid they were a curse to us? That would be Paul. He is the false teacher, and I will not listen to him.
IndigoChild5559
Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
At one point, Jesus said Believe and be baptized. However, over and over he stresses obedience. To the rich man who asks how to gain eternal life he answers the commandments. He tells the story of the sheep and the goats, and the only difference between them was what they did and didn't do. The sermon on the mount never says, "Blessed are they who have faith in the messiah" or "BLessed are they who accept me as their personal Lord and Savior."
Paul on the other hand states that we are saved by grace through faith and not of works. He comes right out and says that the commandments are a curse to us.
That falls under the description of a false teacher as per Deuteronomy 13:1-8, which says not to listen to those who teach against the commandments.
Soapy
Son of his Father: The Heir and Prince
Lacking wisdom, inability to understand truth, retention of redacted laws and covenants (like refer to a Will that has been superseded by new Will), the whole of what you just said points to why you say what you said.Wow, it amazes me when I, a Jew, actually know more about Christian theology than a Christian, but in this case I do. It has to do with the Council of Chalcedon, which ruled that Jesus is fully God and fully man. You will hear most educated Christians affirm this -- both God and man.
I'm referring to all standard orthodox sects of Christianity, Protestant (including evanglicals and non-denominationals), Catholics, and Eastern Orthodox, all adhere to this Ecumenical Council. Those who claim to believe in Jesus but do not profess him to be fully God and fully man (such as the gnostics) are considered heretical by Christians.
What is commonly referred to as Moses' law is really God's law, spoken word for word to Moses, who wrote it down and delivered it to Israel on behalf of God. But the word's are God's.
This is just nonsense. The law regarding divorce was not a watering down due to complaining. There is nothing like that in the Torah.
Actually this concept exists in the Oral Torah. Rabbi Jonathan ben Joseph said: For it is holy unto you; I.e., it [the Sabbath] is committed to your hands, not you to its hands. - Talmud: Yoma 85b
Look, God says not to work on the Shabbat. As per Deuteronomy 17:8-13, the levites and elders (rabbis) have the God given authority to determine exactly what work and we are not to question them, on pain of death. Since work on the Tabernacle stopped on the Shabbat, they decided that "work" would mean all those labors used for the creation of the Tabernacle, including the making of the shewbread.
So yes, we don't cook. Why is that such a big deal? We cook in advance, so that the meal is ready just as Shabbat hits. Usually it includes something we can keep warm in a crockpot for Saturday, and special yummy treats to keep the day extra special. Shabbat is the only day that I let myself eat sugar.
Any time someone's life is at stake, we are REQUIRED to break Shabbat. That would include such things as doing surgery, making an emergency phone call, etc. Life comes first. There is nothing wrong with healing via prayer on the Shabbat. Hospitals are full of Jewish doctors on the Shabbat.
Many of the words of Jesus on the subject of healing are, in fact, derived from arguments used by Rabbi Eleazar ben Azariah (of Haggadah fame), Rabbi Akiva and especially Rabbi Ishmael, who was the first to be associated with the phrase pikuach nefesh, a phrase which he apparently invented for any action that saved life at the expense of any Jewish law.
https://www.thejc.com/judaism/features/why-doctors-can-heal-on-shabbat-1.65237
So, the problem here is that you are not fully advised of Jewish law. You have obtained all your information from your gospels, which is a tiny snapshot of time, when these things were in the middle of formation.
Deuteronomy 13:1-5 warns us of false teachers who will come and invite us to worship false gods (like Jesus). It describes these false teachers as those who will teach against the commandments. Does that remind you of anyone? Say, Paul? This passage of scripture say do not listen to any teacher that teaches against to commandments. And you wonder why I don't listen to the NT!!!!
It seems to me that it is Christianity that fails in its teachings, pretty badly too.
God's word is for all time. Our covenant is everlasting.
The signs of the times today are pretty good. War and violence are down. The end is not near. I'm not expecting the messiah any time soon.
You say an awful lot about Paul. I'm not interested in Paul. He taught that the commandments bought a curse, and is therefore a false teacher.
You have listened to false teachers.
Genesis states that the Covenant between God and the Jews is EVERLASTING. That means the New Covenant cannot arrive until the World to Come.
Saving us is the job of God, not the messiah. Your whole idea that we need a human sacrifice is an abomination.
I AGREE that what you are referring to is TRINITARIAN CHRISTIANITY... which I put to you is FALSE DOCTRINE... did you not read that???
If you get it into your understanding and choose to deal in wisdom rather than simply pointing out the errors of a FALSE DOCTRINE ensconced in TRINITARIANISM then you will see the truth... but I guess the need to defend your point of view clouds you’d judgement and thoughts.
If you put the scriptures together then you will arrive at a true rendering. But if you’d miss the reality then you will always be ‘looking for the messiah’ despite him already doing what scriptures says he will do in the short term... he will achieve the rest in the long term - which is yet to come!
You are looking for an immediate restoration of the Jewish nation but you miss one vital point....
The Jewish nation was indeed YHWH’s favoured nation and he upheld, supported, punished, praised, glorified, ...and condemned them.
You don’t like the last part!
Yhwh chose the Jews because they believed in Him. He says that through them all nations would come to believe in Him. He says that because of the sin of the first man, Adam, the whole of humanity was condemned to die NO MATTER HOW GODLY THEY WERE... but if a Holy and sinless man could be found THEN HE, YHWH, would show HIS LOVE for SINFUL MANKIND IF THAT SINLESS MAN WERE TO DIE FOR THE WHOLE OF HUMANITY.
Do you agree that this is what scriptures says???
Remember that God was ANGRY with Adam (who represents humanity) that sin was brought into the world... GOD was intending to DESTROY MANKIND off the face of the earth... BUT HE RELENTED when he put His CONTINGENCY in place... THAT A SINLESS MAN WOULD SAVE MANKIND, SATE HIS FURY, and RESTORE THE IMAGE OF GOD in mankind...
Do you agree with this??
Scriptures says that HIS LOVE OF MANKIND (whom he made in HIS IMAGE) would be restored to fullness if a Sinless holy man, a SON in humanity, were to die. Here, trinity is at false in claiming that such a man IS himself GOD. I agree this is FALSE. Since SIN came into the world through a SON IN HUMANITY (luke 3:38) then Sin can only be removed by an EQUAL SON IN HUMANITY.
This does not mean that such a son himself will destroy sin BUT THAT HIS ACTIONS will do so. Such a son must behave, must act in godliness to the fullest extent, must lead the way (like a shepherd) BACK TO GOD.. the lost sheep led back to the fold of God by an obedient shepherd.
And having done so, he must DIE (the slaughtered lamb). This is why scriptures says he was slaughtered from the beginning... it means the was a sure act... not that it had already been done.. aka: a Prophesy.... aka: The Seed of the woman.
And in saying, ‘Seed of a woman’ you will notice that this foresaw that the SON was to be not one PROCREATED by a human Male ... Remember that Adam was born by THE LIFELESS DUST OF THE EARTH and ENLIVENING of that dust BY THE HOLY SPIRIT of YHWH.... thus: A HOLY AND SINLESS CREATED SON.
Now compare that with Jesus: BORN from the LIFELESS DUST of the EGG of a female...and ENLIVENED by the HOLY SPIRIT OF YHWH... thus making him HOLY AND SINLESS....!!!
And why not by a man... because SIN was in THE MALE... so, procreation could only ever produce another SINFUL CHILD.
And you know, but don’t believe, ‘A second (and LAST) ADAM! What does it mean to be an ADAM???
So, you see, I am not preaching TRINITY, in which you rightly see fallacy. I am preaching the truth...
Now, as for the restoration. This is not a HIMAN RESTORATION... the Jews of Jesus’ times glorified him (Psalm Sunday) because they thought he was coming to DESTROY the Romans... they soon changed their minds a few days later by CRUCIFYING HIM when he preached FORGIVENESS!! Wow!!!
His kingdom was ‘Not of this world!’ He said. There was a lot of work to be done before the restoration could take place... he had to PREACH THE KINGDOM OF GOD; Deliver the testimony YHWH gave him to give to them; SUFFER for humanity’s sake; DIE...; and be RESURRECTED... and THEN THE RESTORATION WOULD BEGIN!!!
Notice that the dying was no easy matter. A sinless and holy man cannot die UNLESS the Holy Spirit is REMOVED FROM HIM... AND, Jesus AGONISED whether YHWH could resurrect him.... he even floundered in a moment by asking YHWH if there could be another way.........!!! But gave way back to the command and Will of God....
The act of dying IN THE LOVE OF GOD, was to show that ALL WHO DIE IN THE LOVE OF GOD and the belief in Jesus, WILL BE RESURRECTED TO LIVING LIFE IN ETERNITY .... in the finally restored (RESURRECTED) one NATION.
And also, that ALL who subscribe ...ALL NATIONS... who are believers ... will be welcomed into this kingdom... NOT JUST THE JEWS!!!
—————
You may find many unanswered questions in the above... trust be that no one could write the whole of the scriptures past present and future in a forum post. Ask me specific areas and I will try my best to answer you.
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moorea944
Well-Known Member
Paul's a false teacher? Since when? And why would you even say that? If Paul was a false teacher, then his letters would not be in the bible. We have to remember that God is in control of everything.
What was he teaching that you dont like?
[false teachers that will come and try to get us to worship other gods (like Jesus).]
Paul never said or taught that Jesus is God. Do you think he did? Paul also didnt believe in the trinity since that is a doctrine that is false.
TrueBeliever37
Well-Known Member
Hi Indigo,
Here's the thing. He is not another God. Trinitarians might want to make him another God, but he was actually the one and only God (YHWH) dwelling in a fleshly body.
moorea944
Well-Known Member
Is there a verse on that? That God came down to earth and changed into a man? Then who's in Heaven?
IndigoChild5559
Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
But I made a remark about Christianity, and Christianity is trinitarian. If you are not personally trinitarian, I salute you. The remark was obviously not directed towards you.
Me? I don't believe in Jesus at all. Not messiah, no. Just a nice Jewish man who wanted to be the messiah and failed.
God certainly disciplined Israel when we sinned. Proverbs 3:12 The Lord disciplines the one he loves.
the LORD chose Israel because we were willing to accept the Law. Just as it is our responsibility to obey, it is also our responsibility to be a light unto the nations and carry ethical monotheism to the four corners of the earth. There is nothing in there about a sinless man dying.
Its not a matter of belief. Its a matter of obedience. Nowhere in the Tanakh does it say, "Be careful that when the Messiah comes that you believe in him so that you will have eternal life." No, from beginning to end, the Tanakh stresses obedience, repentance, and returning to God's ways.
IndigoChild5559
Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
I thought I was very clear in my post. Did you not read it carefully?
Deuteronomy 13:1-5 makes it clear that a false teacher teaches against the commandments and that we are not to listen to them.
Paul talked about the curse of the Law!!!! He said circumcision was worthless!!! He said it didn't matter if you kept shabbat or not.
Thus, his words are false teaching and we should not listen to him.
See how simple that was?
IndigoChild5559
Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
that is not Christian teaching. Standard orthodox Christian theology, per the council of Chalcedon and adopted by Catholics, Protestants (including non-denominationals) and Eastern Orthodox, is that Jesus is fully God and fully man. That he is one person with two natures, not some human husk that God fills.
I'm not trying to argue with you about your beliefs -- that's between you and other Christians. I'm just saying that your beliefs are not the traditional orthodox mainstream view.
moorea944
Well-Known Member
I guess you also dont like reading other peoples posts too. But no worries.
[Paul talked about the curse of the Law!!!! He said circumcision was worthless!!! He said it didn't matter if you kept shabbat or not.]
Yes, that's right, he did. Do you remembering reading in the OT prophet books that there was going to be a "new" covenant with the house of Israel someday? (Jer 31 and 33v15 among other books) Everything changes with Christ. Paul tries to explain that to the Jews. The law was never meant to save!!!! It was to bring us to Christ. The Law was to teach you about sin and of course about other things too like obedience. (Romans 3v20). We are justified by faith, not by the deeds of the Law. (3v28) The Law was for the children of Israel in the wilderness.
OT tells us that someone is to come, a Messiah, the seed of Jesse, a lion from the tribe of Judah. Christ is that Messiah. For example, look at Psalms 22, that happened to Jesus. Look at all of the miracles that he did.
And I dont mind repeating my self.... Paul gave examples to the Jews about their forefathers. Abraham, was he counted righteous before God before or after circumcision? Did Abraham have faith that God would make his seed a great nation before or after circumcision?.....
David, he committed adultery and murder, did he go to the High Priest for a sin offering? Or did he pray to his Heavenly Father for forgiveness.... (Psalms 51)
[Thus, his words are false teaching and we should not listen to him.]
False teachings to you because you dont believe in the NT. His words came from God and from the OT, which he quoted alot. Paul's teachings were not false.
[See how simple that was?]
I"m sorry.... shouldnt I be saying that to you???..........
IndigoChild5559
Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
The new covenant is for the world to come. It has not happened yet. If it had already happened you would see two things: 1. we would not need to be taught right from wrong (this is just not true, children still have to be taught not to lie, steal, etc.) and 2. everyone would know God (this is just not true,there are plenty of atheists and agnostics).
Yes, the Law is for Jews, but not just in the wilderness. It is an everlasting covenant.
Psalm 22 is about David, not the Messiah.
Sure the Messiah is to come. He is to rule from Jerusalem during the messianic age when he brings all the Jews back to the land of Israel and he brings an era of world wide peace. Obviously Jesus did none of those things. It doesn't matter then, how many miracles he did.
No. He is a false teacher because he meets the criteria for one set out in Deuteronomy 13;1-5 -- he teaches against the commandments.
metis
aged ecumenical anthropologist
To me, the synthesis of this is that Paul believed that Jesus was the "fulfillment" of the Law but did not negate the Law for Jews. What he does say is that there is no reason for a Gentile to convert to Judaism and be circumcised in order to believe and follow the "law of love" that Jesus taught.
BTW, Paul actually did teach that actions very much count, such as his comment on "faith, hope, and love", with the latter being most important ("agape" is an "action noun" in Koine Greek, so one just does not have love as they must also live it). And then he added that faith without actions is just "cymbals clashing".
IMO, late in Paul's life he realizes that there's a problem having "one body", as he refers to the Church as being, but with two different groups (Jewish & Gentile) operating under two different sets or rules. His solution: Jesus is the "end of the Law". Without doing that, I doubt the Church would have not been able to survive due to internal division with no logical way of compromising.
IndigoChild5559
Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
I very much appreciate what you are saying, Metis. I'm not claiming that Paul was advocating Christians not try to be good people. And I do undersstand that the 613 apply only to Jews. But as you said, there were problems with having a bilateral standard of behavior. And thus the end of the Law, in Paul's view.
Well, Jews can't have that. According to Deut 13:1-5, this qualifies Paul as being a false teacher and we are not to listen to him. We simply can't be a part of anything that negates the commandments.
That doesn't mean that Christians can't be great people.
metis
aged ecumenical anthropologist
I fully agree. Although, please do realize that Jesus and Paul didn't see its that way as they took this significantly further than the Hillel school did.
IOW, they took the position that "love conquers all", to put it into a modern expression, thus what Torah was really about from their perspective. I think Hillel likely would agree, but not to point whereas the Law could be ignored. Flexible, yes; ignored, no.
Well, I may be a "people", but no one has ever claimed that I'm "great".
moorea944
Well-Known Member
Psalms 22 is about David? In what way? Read it again, you'll see it is about Jesus.