Is the Muslim Jesus cited in the Qur'an possibly historical?

eik · Jul 3, 2020

VoidoftheSun said:
Lol Imagine tell God that God is copying from itself You are one of the more humorous Christians out there

God as helper
============

Isaiah 41:10
Fear not, for I am with you; be not dismayed, for I am your God; I will strengthen you, I will help you, I will uphold you with my righteous right hand.

Psalm 54:4
Behold, God is my helper; the Lord is the upholder of my life.

Hebrews 13:6
So we can confidently say, “The Lord is my helper; I will not fear; what can man do to me?”

Psalm 121:1-8
A Song of Ascents. I lift up my eyes to the hills. From where does my help come? My help comes from the Lord, who made heaven and earth. He will not let your foot be moved; he who keeps you will not slumber. Behold, he who keeps Israel will neither slumber nor sleep. The Lord is your keeper; the Lord is your shade on your right hand. ...

Psalm 46:1
To the choirmaster. Of the Sons of Korah. According to Alamoth. A Song. God is our refuge and strength, a very present help in trouble.

Hebrews 13:5-6
Keep your life free from love of money, and be content with what you have, for he has said, “I will never leave you nor forsake you.” So we can confidently say, “The Lord is my helper; I will not fear; what can man do to me?”

Hebrews 4:16
Let us then with confidence draw near to the throne of grace, that we may receive mercy and find grace to help in time of need.

Psalm 118:7
The Lord is on my side as my helper; I shall look in triumph on those who hate me.

Psalm 27:1
Of David. The Lord is my light and my salvation; whom shall I fear? The Lord is the stronghold of my life; of whom shall I be afraid?

Psalm 23:1-6
A Psalm of David. The Lord is my shepherd; I shall not want. He makes me lie down in green pastures. He leads me beside still waters. He restores my soul. He leads me in paths of righteousness for his name's sake. Even though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil, for you are with me; your rod and your staff, they comfort me. You prepare a table before me in the presence of my enemies; you anoint my head with oil; my cup overflows. ...

2 Timothy 1:7
For God gave us a spirit not of fear but of power and love and self-control.

1 John 4:18
There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear. For fear has to do with punishment, and whoever fears has not been perfected in love.

Hebrews 4:12
For the word of God is living and active, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing to the division of soul and of spirit, of joints and of marrow, and discerning the thoughts and intentions of the heart.

John 14:26 s
But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you.

Romans 15:13
May the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, so that by the power of the Holy Spirit you may abound in hope.

Psalm 40:17
As for me, I am poor and needy, but the Lord takes thought for me. You are my help and my deliverer; do not delay, O my God!

Philippians 4:13
I can do all things through him who strengthens me.

Psalm 72:12
For he delivers the needy when he calls, the poor and him who has no helper.

God as the first and the Last
=======================
Rev 1:8 “I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, “who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty.”

God as the giver of eternal life
========================
Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus

So your verses are, even if true, not exactly novel or enlightening for one versed in the bible. In particular your Allah doesn't seem to give "eternal life" which is the main point of religion. Rather a serious omission that.

eik · Jul 3, 2020

VoidoftheSun said:
You're hilarious. So you're seriously gonna tell me that there is no Protestant anti-Catholicism and Catholic anti-Protestantism, and that you think all interpretations of Christianity are all true?

Your sense of hilarity shows you are not serious about faith, because there is nothing funny about it.

In fact protestants and catholics have a lot of beliefs in common. The differences are largely political and largely historical. They share so many core beliefs that their church services are now very similar, as are their hymns. However there are doctrinal differences, e.g. in respect of the status of Mary the mother of Christ, and whether she has the right to the "theokotos" title. But for the average protestant or catholic, they are not so different in the core requirements of faith.

Protestantism is mainly directed at the political supremacy of the Pope, whom has a history of pesecuting protestants. The papacy as an institution has no biblical basis. It is just a matter of human nature that where people exalt certain rulers above the rest, there is bound to be a falling out.

Yet as to core aspects of Christian faith that are essential to salvation, there is authority and much unanimity. This authority doesn't exist in Islam. Every muslim is free to follow his own version of Islam, his own interpretation, of which there are many. There is no right and wrong theology, where the Koran contains so much that is in irreconcilable conflict. For this reason muslims have likely spent as much time fighting each other down the ages as fighting anyone else.

eik · Jul 3, 2020

firedragon said:
Nope. You have a problem.

You do have a problem with civility and respect, at least, if you can't quote people's posts accurately.

VoidoftheSun · Jul 3, 2020

eik said:
Another example of stoning (or killing by another means) is Mahomet ordering the custodian of a pagan temple to be killed. Not content with demolishing the temple idol, he ordered the woman's immediate execution, without any trial, without a court, and without a judge.
Expedition of Khalid ibn al-Walid (Nakhla) - Wikipedia

So whatever the Koran says, it is trumped by Mahomet's real life behaviour of extra-judicial slaughter. Not so with Christ, who did not order the adulteress to be put to death in John 8 without due process of law. We also know the Koran has commands to kill the idolaters commensurate with his later view that his religion was to be spread by the sword.

You'll struggle trying to find any support of Khalid ibn al-Walid from us Shi'ites, all you'll find is condemnation and cursing of his name.
Khalid b. al-Walid

eik said:
Better to be lost to history than lost to God. At Christians have the spirit.

What the heck are you talking about? not lost to history at all, there are over 240 million Shi'ites worldwide.

Twelvers (who I mentioned) believe that the Twelve Imam is alive, somewhat of a figure like Melchizedek, but also like other Biblical figures who lived long lifes.

Ismailis however have an active 49th Imam at the present day, known as the Aga Khan IV.

There are also Sufis, of whom all authentic lineages all come through the Twelve Imams.

It's definitely not like what happened with the Catholics genocide all the true Christians (gnostics) and destroying their scriptures.

Also, on Spirit you might want to read this: The Spirit
And this: The Spirit and the Word: of the Command of My Lord

eik said:
God as helper

Irrelevant, non-sequitor reply. In the post I replied to you about, you had mentioned God's kingdom. I corrected you on what Islam unanimously says on the matter.

eik said:
In particular your Allah doesn't seem to give "eternal life" which is the main point of religion. Rather a serious omission that.

Firstly it's not "my Allah", it is God.

And secondly, the first thing you learn about in Islam aside from the Five Pillars, are the articles of Faith which include 'eternal life' aka the afterlife/hereafter: Iman (Islam) - Wikipedia

Plenty of things you could read on it: Part 8: Eternal Life
The Resurrection
Towards Eternal Life
Eternal Life
Life After Death: The Islamic View of The Afterlife - Islam Faith

eik said:
Your sense of hilarity shows you are not serious about faith, because there is nothing funny about it.

Yes it is bloody hilarious that you pretend that Catholics and Protestants haven't been and still aren't at each other's throats.

eik said:
Protestantism is mainly directed at the political supremacy of the Pope, whom has a history of pesecuting protestants. The papacy as an institution has no biblical basis. It is just a matter of human nature that where people exalt certain rulers above the rest, there is bound to be a falling out.

Not at all. What you speak of only really applies to Martin Luther and Lutheranism. The rest of Protestantism differs extensively over everything, even of the status of Jesus.

"the papacy as an institution has no biblical basis" - well there are you airing your Protestant sectarian views.

If you believe in Sola Scriptura and Sola Fide, then you're just kidding yourself. Also, premillenialism is very popular in a large chunk of Protestant sects, especially evangelical ones, despite that it was a heresy.

eik said:
Every muslim is free to follow his own version of Islam, his own interpretation, of which there are many. There is no right and wrong theology, where the Koran contains so much that is in irreconcilable conflict. For this reason muslims have likely spent as much time fighting each other down the ages as fighting anyone else.

Besides the conclusive fact that you are describe is the spitting image of what Protestantism actually is.

You're completely lost in your views of Islam. Question 54: Interpretation of Qur’an Based On Personal Views

Islam has the concept of Bidah and often strict legal rulings of what is permissible and impermissible. If anything, your supposed critiques are the opposite of what Islamophobes usually spout which usually says the opposite on all of these. Islam does not have an open theology to believe whatever you want, nor has any of it's fundamentals changed.

It's Qur'an not "Koran". Why do you do this? It's like writing it as Krishchin and Jeazis.

firedragon · Jul 3, 2020

eik said:
You do have a problem with civility and respect, at least, if you can't quote people's posts accurately.

Its like the elk praising its foot mate. Tsk.

firedragon · Jul 3, 2020

eik said:
Another example of stoning (or killing by another means) is Mahomet ordering the custodian of a pagan temple to be killed. Not content with demolishing the temple idol, he ordered the woman's immediate execution, without any trial, without a court, and without a judge.
Expedition of Khalid ibn al-Walid (Nakhla) - Wikipedia

So whatever the Koran says, it is trumped by Mahomet's real life behaviour of extra-judicial slaughter. Not so with Christ, who did not order the adulteress to be put to death in John 8 without due process of law. We also know the Koran has commands to kill the idolaters commensurate with his later view that his religion was to be spread by the sword.

Muslims do not worship all the Hadith the way you worship them. Islamic concept about ahadith is "thakani warafadh" or accept and reject. So Muslims don't believe in ahadith like you. They accept and reject because Hadith is never ever believed as Gods word.

But see, you people are very cheap so let me play that gutter game and know that I have thrown relevance to the OP out due to indecent people in this forum who are only intending to spread a bit of hatred for a daily dose of adrenalin.

Hear you go. This is from the book you believe is Gods word. This is the response for utter ignorance.

Kill Women Who Are Not Virgins On Their Wedding Night

But if this charge is true (that she wasn’t a virgin on her wedding night), and evidence of the girls virginity is not found, they shall bring the girl to the entrance of her fathers house and there her townsman shall stone her to death, because she committed a crime against Israel by her unchasteness in her father’s house. Thus shall you purge the evil from your midst. (Deuteronomy 22:20-21 NAB)

Kill Followers of Other Religions.

1) If your own full brother, or your son or daughter, or your beloved wife, or you intimate friend, entices you secretly to serve other gods, whom you and your fathers have not known, gods of any other nations, near at hand or far away, from one end of the earth to the other: do not yield to him or listen to him, nor look with pity upon him, to spare or shield him, but kill him. Your hand shall be the first raised to slay him; the rest of the people shall join in with you. You shall stone him to death, because he sought to lead you astray from the Lord, your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, that place of slavery. And all Israel, hearing of this, shall fear and never do such evil as this in your midst. (Deuteronomy 13:7-12 NAB)

2) Suppose a man or woman among you, in one of your towns that the LORD your God is giving you, has done evil in the sight of the LORD your God and has violated the covenant by serving other gods or by worshiping the sun, the moon, or any of the forces of heaven, which I have strictly forbidden. When you hear about it, investigate the matter thoroughly. If it is true that this detestable thing has been done in Israel, then that man or woman must be taken to the gates of the town and stoned to death. (Deuteronomy 17:2-5 NLT)

Death for Blasphemy

One day a man who had an Israelite mother and an Egyptian father got into a fight with one of the Israelite men. During the fight, this son of an Israelite woman blasphemed the LORD’s name. So the man was brought to Moses for judgment. His mother’s name was Shelomith. She was the daughter of Dibri of the tribe of Dan. They put the man in custody until the LORD’s will in the matter should become clear. Then the LORD said to Moses, “Take the blasphemer outside the camp, and tell all those who heard him to lay their hands on his head. Then let the entire community stone him to death. Say to the people of Israel: Those who blaspheme God will suffer the consequences of their guilt and be punished. Anyone who blasphemes the LORD’s name must be stoned to death by the whole community of Israel. Any Israelite or foreigner among you who blasphemes the LORD’s name will surely die.(Leviticus 24:10-16 NLT)

Kill False Prophets

1) Suppose there are prophets among you, or those who have dreams about the future, and they promise you signs or miracles, and the predicted signs or miracles take place. If the prophets then say, ‘Come, let us worship the gods of foreign nations,’ do not listen to them. The LORD your God is testing you to see if you love him with all your heart and soul. Serve only the LORD your God and fear him alone. Obey his commands, listen to his voice, and cling to him. The false prophets or dreamers who try to lead you astray must be put to death, for they encourage rebellion against the LORD your God, who brought you out of slavery in the land of Egypt. Since they try to keep you from following the LORD your God, you must execute them to remove the evil from among you. (Deuteronomy 13:1-5 NLT)

2) But any prophet who claims to give a message from another god or who falsely claims to speak for me must die.’ You may wonder, ‘How will we know whether the prophecy is from the LORD or not?’ If the prophet predicts something in the LORD’s name and it does not happen, the LORD did not give the message. That prophet has spoken on his own and need not be feared. (Deuteronomy 18:20-22 NLT)

Infidels and Gays Should Die

So God let them go ahead and do whatever shameful things their hearts desired. As a result, they did vile and degrading things with each other’s bodies. Instead of believing what they knew was the truth about God, they deliberately chose to believe lies. So they worshiped the things God made but not the Creator himself, who is to be praised forever. Amen. That is why God abandoned them to their shameful desires. Even the women turned against the natural way to have sex and instead indulged in sex with each other. And the men, instead of having normal sexual relationships with women, burned with lust for each other. Men did shameful things with other men and, as a result, suffered within themselves the penalty they so richly deserved. When they refused to acknowledge God, he abandoned them to their evil minds and let them do things that should never be done. Their lives became full of every kind of wickedness, sin, greed, hate, envy, murder, fighting, deception, malicious behavior, and gossip. They are backstabbers, haters of God, insolent, proud, and boastful. They are forever inventing new ways of sinning and are disobedient to their parents. They refuse to understand, break their promises, and are heartless and unforgiving. They are fully aware of God’s death penalty for those who do these things, yet they go right ahead and do them anyway. And, worse yet, they encourage others to do them, too. (Romans 1:24-32 NLT)

So go ahead and please compare the book you believe is Gods word, and the books Muslims accept and reject. Go ahead. Lets play this cheap gutter game.

firedragon · Jul 3, 2020

eik said:
Better to be lost to history than lost to God. At Christians have the spirit.

Here is your spirit.

Kill Anyone who Approaches the Tabernacle

For the LORD had said to Moses, ‘Exempt the tribe of Levi from the census; do not include them when you count the rest of the Israelites. You must put the Levites in charge of the Tabernacle of the Covenant, along with its furnishings and equipment. They must carry the Tabernacle and its equipment as you travel, and they must care for it and camp around it. Whenever the Tabernacle is moved, the Levites will take it down and set it up again. Anyone else who goes too near the Tabernacle will be executed.’ (Numbers 1:48-51 NLT)

Kill People for Working on the Sabbath

The LORD then gave these further instructions to Moses: ‘Tell the people of Israel to keep my Sabbath day, for the Sabbath is a sign of the covenant between me and you forever. It helps you to remember that I am the LORD, who makes you holy. Yes, keep the Sabbath day, for it is holy. Anyone who desecrates it must die; anyone who works on that day will be cut off from the community. Work six days only, but the seventh day must be a day of total rest. I repeat: Because the LORD considers it a holy day, anyone who works on the Sabbath must be put to death.’ (Exodus 31:12-15 NLT)

eik · Jul 4, 2020

Aupmanyav said:
In Islam, the final authority is with Qu'an and the people who have studied it thoroughly.

Question begging. For who decides who has studied the Koran the most thoroughly? For myself I prefer to rely on scholars such as Christoph Luxenberg. He has a book, The Syro-Aramaic Reading of the Koran: A Contribution to the Decoding of the Language of the Koran being an English-language edition (2007) of Die syro-aramäische Lesart des Koran: Ein Beitrag zur Entschlüsselung der Koransprache (2000). You might find the erudition in this book greater than that of your average Imam,

VoidoftheSun · Jul 4, 2020

eik said:
Question begging. For who decides who has studied the Koran the most thoroughly? For myself I prefer to rely on scholars such as Christoph Luxenberg. He has a book, The Syro-Aramaic Reading of the Koran: A Contribution to the Decoding of the Language of the Koran being an English-language edition (2007) of Die syro-aramäische Lesart des Koran: Ein Beitrag zur Entschlüsselung der Koransprache (2000). You might find the erudition in this book greater than that of your average Imam,

That book is already tackled in sections of "The Qur'an and the Orientalists" and "In search of the Ali Ibn Abi Talib Codex" both of which are superb books, many other books have pulled apart that otherwise redundant book by pseudonym Luxenberg.

firedragon · Jul 4, 2020

eik said:
Question begging. For who decides who has studied the Koran the most thoroughly? For myself I prefer to rely on scholars such as Christoph Luxenberg. He has a book, The Syro-Aramaic Reading of the Koran: A Contribution to the Decoding of the Language of the Koran being an English-language edition (2007) of Die syro-aramäische Lesart des Koran: Ein Beitrag zur Entschlüsselung der Koransprache (2000). You might find the erudition in this book greater than that of your average Imam,

How do you know he is a scholar? How in the world would you know a pseudo named writer is a scholar?

And in the book he quotes the Quran tashqil and changes them. So can you tell me which Quran manuscript he uses to get and interexchange tashqil?

So lets see if you have understood the "scholar" you quoted at all.

firedragon · Jul 4, 2020

eik said:
Question begging. For who decides who has studied the Koran the most thoroughly? For myself I prefer to rely on scholars such as Christoph Luxenberg. He has a book, The Syro-Aramaic Reading of the Koran: A Contribution to the Decoding of the Language of the Koran being an English-language edition (2007) of Die syro-aramäische Lesart des Koran: Ein Beitrag zur Entschlüsselung der Koransprache (2000). You might find the erudition in this book greater than that of your average Imam,

Do you honestly have any clue of what you are quoting? If you have not understood and analysed a book, why do you quote it? Isn't that an extremely intellectually dishonest position?

Tell me. Since you have read this so called "Scholar" you quote called Christoph Luxenberg, can you at least tell me what is the manuscript printed on the cover of his book? Do you see any Tashqil there?

This would be the A in the Alphabet for any student who begins a study of this simple, basic book.

Aupmanyav · Jul 4, 2020

eik said:
Question begging. .. You might find the erudition in this book greater than that of your average Imam,

I have studied Qur'an quite thoroughly, and really do not need anyone to explain it to me. Of course, I have used the various translations, and not directly from Arabic.

YoursTrue · Jul 5, 2020

firedragon said:
You mean to say Jews did not claim it ever? Hmm. Yep, maybe you are right. The verse says "they claimed" and addresses Jews and Christians together, so I hope you don't mind me changing the OP to correctly depict what I have to say.

Anyway, just to answer your question "when", you maybe right that Jews never officially claimed that they got Jesus killed. It was the Christians who claimed that. In the 4th century "Deicida" or the killers of the lord and was expressed heavily in the
pseudo-Cyprianic sermon in order to make that divide.

The account in the holy scriptures explains that Jesus was brought before the Sanhedrin and was convicted by them. Pilate the governor, gave in to the crowd. Pilate had authority from Rome. Mark chapter 14 outlines some of the events.
The high priest questioned Jesus when he was brought to them. “Are You the Christ, the Son of the Blessed One?”62“I am,” said Jesus, “and you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of Powerl and coming with the clouds of heaven.” At this, the high priest tore his clothes and declared, “Why do we need any more witnesses? You have heard the blasphemy. What is your verdict?” And they all condemned Him as deserving of death."
Mark 15 shows what happened when he appeared before the governor, who had authority from Rome to put persons to death.

eik · Jul 5, 2020

firedragon said:
How do you know he is a scholar? How in the world would you know a pseudo named writer is a scholar?

And in the book he quotes the Quran tashqil and changes them. So can you tell me which Quran manuscript he uses to get and interexchange tashqil?

So lets see if you have understood the "scholar" you quoted at all.

firedragon said:
Do you honestly have any clue of what you are quoting? If you have not understood and analysed a book, why do you quote it? Isn't that an extremely intellectually dishonest position?

Tell me. Since you have read this so called "Scholar" you quote called Christoph Luxenberg, can you at least tell me what is the manuscript printed on the cover of his book? Do you see any Tashqil there?

This would be the A in the Alphabet for any student who begins a study of this simple, basic book.

See 'Oldest' Koran found in Birmingham and Early Quranic manuscripts - Wikipedia.

I don't see much evidence of Tashqil in any of them. Anyway, I do not myself claim to be an expert: I am introducing you to experts who do not share the same conclusions on the sanctity of the Koran as you do!

eik · Jul 5, 2020

firedragon said:
Here is your spirit.

Kill Anyone who Approaches the Tabernacle

For the LORD had said to Moses, ‘Exempt the tribe of Levi from the census; do not include them when you count the rest of the Israelites. You must put the Levites in charge of the Tabernacle of the Covenant, along with its furnishings and equipment. They must carry the Tabernacle and its equipment as you travel, and they must care for it and camp around it. Whenever the Tabernacle is moved, the Levites will take it down and set it up again. Anyone else who goes too near the Tabernacle will be executed.’ (Numbers 1:48-51 NLT)

Kill People for Working on the Sabbath

The LORD then gave these further instructions to Moses: ‘Tell the people of Israel to keep my Sabbath day, for the Sabbath is a sign of the covenant between me and you forever. It helps you to remember that I am the LORD, who makes you holy. Yes, keep the Sabbath day, for it is holy. Anyone who desecrates it must die; anyone who works on that day will be cut off from the community. Work six days only, but the seventh day must be a day of total rest. I repeat: Because the LORD considers it a holy day, anyone who works on the Sabbath must be put to death.’ (Exodus 31:12-15 NLT)

firedragon said:
Kill Women Who Are Not Virgins On Their Wedding Night

But if this charge is true (that she wasn’t a virgin on her wedding night), and evidence of the girls virginity is not found, they shall bring the girl to the entrance of her fathers house and there her townsman shall stone her to death, because she committed a crime against Israel by her unchasteness in her father’s house. Thus shall you purge the evil from your midst. (Deuteronomy 22:20-21 NAB)

Kill Followers of Other Religions.

1) If your own full brother, or your son or daughter, or your beloved wife, or you intimate friend, entices you secretly to serve other gods, whom you and your fathers have not known, gods of any other nations, near at hand or far away, from one end of the earth to the other: do not yield to him or listen to him, nor look with pity upon him, to spare or shield him, but kill him. Your hand shall be the first raised to slay him; the rest of the people shall join in with you. You shall stone him to death, because he sought to lead you astray from the Lord, your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, that place of slavery. And all Israel, hearing of this, shall fear and never do such evil as this in your midst. (Deuteronomy 13:7-12 NAB)

2) Suppose a man or woman among you, in one of your towns that the LORD your God is giving you, has done evil in the sight of the LORD your God and has violated the covenant by serving other gods or by worshiping the sun, the moon, or any of the forces of heaven, which I have strictly forbidden. When you hear about it, investigate the matter thoroughly. If it is true that this detestable thing has been done in Israel, then that man or woman must be taken to the gates of the town and stoned to death. (Deuteronomy 17:2-5 NLT)

Death for Blasphemy

One day a man who had an Israelite mother and an Egyptian father got into a fight with one of the Israelite men. During the fight, this son of an Israelite woman blasphemed the LORD’s name. So the man was brought to Moses for judgment. His mother’s name was Shelomith. She was the daughter of Dibri of the tribe of Dan. They put the man in custody until the LORD’s will in the matter should become clear. Then the LORD said to Moses, “Take the blasphemer outside the camp, and tell all those who heard him to lay their hands on his head. Then let the entire community stone him to death. Say to the people of Israel: Those who blaspheme God will suffer the consequences of their guilt and be punished. Anyone who blasphemes the LORD’s name must be stoned to death by the whole community of Israel. Any Israelite or foreigner among you who blasphemes the LORD’s name will surely die.(Leviticus 24:10-16 NLT)

Kill False Prophets

1) Suppose there are prophets among you, or those who have dreams about the future, and they promise you signs or miracles, and the predicted signs or miracles take place. If the prophets then say, ‘Come, let us worship the gods of foreign nations,’ do not listen to them. The LORD your God is testing you to see if you love him with all your heart and soul. Serve only the LORD your God and fear him alone. Obey his commands, listen to his voice, and cling to him. The false prophets or dreamers who try to lead you astray must be put to death, for they encourage rebellion against the LORD your God, who brought you out of slavery in the land of Egypt. Since they try to keep you from following the LORD your God, you must execute them to remove the evil from among you. (Deuteronomy 13:1-5 NLT)

2) But any prophet who claims to give a message from another god or who falsely claims to speak for me must die.’ You may wonder, ‘How will we know whether the prophecy is from the LORD or not?’ If the prophet predicts something in the LORD’s name and it does not happen, the LORD did not give the message. That prophet has spoken on his own and need not be feared. (Deuteronomy 18:20-22 NLT)

Infidels and Gays Should Die

So God let them go ahead and do whatever shameful things their hearts desired. As a result, they did vile and degrading things with each other’s bodies. Instead of believing what they knew was the truth about God, they deliberately chose to believe lies. So they worshiped the things God made but not the Creator himself, who is to be praised forever. Amen. That is why God abandoned them to their shameful desires. Even the women turned against the natural way to have sex and instead indulged in sex with each other. And the men, instead of having normal sexual relationships with women, burned with lust for each other. Men did shameful things with other men and, as a result, suffered within themselves the penalty they so richly deserved. When they refused to acknowledge God, he abandoned them to their evil minds and let them do things that should never be done. Their lives became full of every kind of wickedness, sin, greed, hate, envy, murder, fighting, deception, malicious behavior, and gossip. They are backstabbers, haters of God, insolent, proud, and boastful. They are forever inventing new ways of sinning and are disobedient to their parents. They refuse to understand, break their promises, and are heartless and unforgiving. They are fully aware of God’s death penalty for those who do these things, yet they go right ahead and do them anyway. And, worse yet, they encourage others to do them, too. (Romans 1:24-32 NLT)

So go ahead and please compare the book you believe is Gods word, and the books Muslims accept and reject. Go ahead. Lets play this cheap gutter game.

All perfectly reasonable for this reason: the laws were certain and not retrospective. They were known, published and promulgated and the punishments known. The subjects punished had been brought out of slavery in Egypt. They had been given the promised land. If they didn't like the law they could emmigrate. The Israelite laws and their punishments are completely different from the indiscriminate slaughter of those not subject to law, and not by way of battle, as practised by Mahomet, who upon the basis of law plainly not published, not known, decided to arbitrarily kill people. Which is why Islam gained the eternal reputation, out of all other religions on the face of the earth, of being "spread by the sword."

BTW, I do not subscribe to your Western liberal humanist values either, which merely usurp the grace of God. as the apostles predicted would happen. However they are not the subject of this thread and I will not debate them here.

IndigoChild5559 · Jul 5, 2020

SA Huguenot said:
I find it interesting that you would say the NT is not divinely inspired, or at least compiled by divinely inspired men...
Who were Jews....
Who were educated in Judeasm....
Who would never have taken another God but YHWH...
yet, they accepted YhwehYashua as the Word of YHWH.
Not as another God, but as the Word of God, just as the Spirit of God was YHWH also.

Christianity began as a heretical Jewish sect, which eventually got kicked out of the synagogues. It eventually became a new Gentile religion, and no concern of ours.

I don't believe the early Jewish believers thought Jesus was God, except maybe for Paul, who remember came from Turkey -- he was a diaspora Jew.

IndigoChild5559 · Jul 5, 2020

SA Huguenot said:
Nope, the Tanakah and New Testament does not contradict each other at all, thats your opinion.
You can buy the Old and New Testaments seperately, or in one volume, which is advisable to cross reference what the NT say with the OT.

However, you can never buy the Old Testament and New Testament INCLUdING the Quran.
The reason is that the Quran is in total contradiction with the Bible.
So far is the Quran in contradiction, that Muslim scholars for hundreds of years made the accusation that the Bible must have been changed by Christians and this is the reason for Islam, Allah and Muhammad being a totally different Religion.

You can, however, buy a "triple Bible" which has the Tanakh, Christian scriptures, and Book of Mormon, all together in one volume.

IndigoChild5559 · Jul 5, 2020

VoidoftheSun said:
Not entirely, the Tanakh are records of the early Israelites leading up to Judaism (in the narrative book of Genesis).
The Torah tells the life of Moses but is preceded by all of the Prophets and holy men from Adam to Joseph.

The Torah also contains, and primarily contains, the 613 laws that God speaks to Moses and MOses writes down. IOW, revelation.

The writings of the Torah were eventually edited to their present form in Babylon, but the Israelites had them in some form siince Sinai. IOW they predate the Prophets.

firedragon · Jul 5, 2020

eik said:
See 'Oldest' Koran found in Birmingham and Early Quranic manuscripts - Wikipedia.

I don't see much evidence of Tashqil in any of them. Anyway, I do not myself claim to be an expert: I am introducing you to experts who do not share the same conclusions on the sanctity of the Koran as you do!

You did not answer the question mate. If there are no Tashqil in the oldest Quran manuscripts, what is Luxemburg doing with them? Do you understand the question?

Anyway, obviously you did not respond to anything about this so called scholar you are quoting because you have not even studied his book nor his positions.

Dont quote people without knowledge in them.

Since you ignored the questions, I will cut and paste them again.

1. Tell me. Since you have read this so called "Scholar" you quote called Christoph Luxenberg, can you at least tell me what is the manuscript printed on the cover of his book? Do you see any Tashqil there?

This would be the A in the Alphabet for any student who begins a study of this simple, basic book.

2. How do you know he is a scholar? How in the world would you know a pseudo named writer is a scholar?

And in the book he quotes the Quran tashqil and changes them. So can you tell me which Quran manuscript he uses to get and interexchange tashqil?

3. And I will ask you another question. Christoph or whoever who wrote that book quotes Noldeke on his thesis right? So could you tell me why was his thesis discredited as unscholarly with the poetic dismissal of Ye of a word in sentences like Atiullah atiul rasool?

I can ask you many questions, because I have read the book. Assuming you have too since you are quoting it, can you answer these most basic questions based on the same book. Please go ahead, or just ignore the questions like you did earlier already which would go to show you just quote anyone with out any knowledge on the subject.

firedragon · Jul 5, 2020

eik said:
All perfectly reasonable for this reason: the laws were certain and not retrospective. They were known, published and promulgated and the punishments known. The subjects punished had been brought out of slavery in Egypt. They had been given the promised land. If they didn't like the law they could emmigrate. The Israelite laws and their punishments are completely different from the indiscriminate slaughter of those not subject to law, and not by way of battle, as practised by Mahomet, who upon the basis of law plainly not published, not known, decided to arbitrarily kill people. Which is why Islam gained the eternal reputation, out of all other religions on the face of the earth, of being "spread by the sword."

BTW, I do not subscribe to your Western liberal humanist values either, which merely usurp the grace of God. as the apostles predicted would happen. However they are not the subject of this thread and I will not debate them here.

For this, you need some more from the Bible. I don't wish your dismissive, apologetic answers, I am only showing you the same gutter game the type of people like you play. This is for you. So go ahead and compare ahadith which Muslims accept and reject, and the book you call the Bible.

If anyone is offended, this is just a return of the gutter game this guy is playing.

1) Murder, rape, and pillage at Jabesh-gilead (Judges 21:10-24)

So they sent twelve thousand warriors to Jabesh-gilead with orders to kill everyone there, including women and children. “This is what you are to do,” they said. “Completely destroy all the males and every woman who is not a virgin.” Among the residents of Jabesh-gilead they found four hundred young virgins who had never slept with a man, and they brought them to the camp at Shiloh in the land of Canaan.

The Israelite assembly sent a peace delegation to the little remnant of Benjamin who were living at the rock of Rimmon. Then the men of Benjamin returned to their homes, and the four hundred women of Jabesh-gilead who were spared were given to them as wives. But there were not enough women for all of them. The people felt sorry for Benjamin because the LORD had left this gap in the tribes of Israel. So the Israelite leaders asked, “How can we find wives for the few who remain, since all the women of the tribe of Benjamin are dead? There must be heirs for the survivors so that an entire tribe of Israel will not be lost forever. But we cannot give them our own daughters in marriage because we have sworn with a solemn oath that anyone who does this will fall under God’s curse.”

Then they thought of the annual festival of the LORD held in Shiloh, between Lebonah and Bethel, along the east side of the road that goes from Bethel to Shechem. They told the men of Benjamin who still needed wives, “Go and hide in the vineyards. When the women of Shiloh come out for their dances, rush out from the vineyards, and each of you can take one of them home to be your wife! And when their fathers and brothers come to us in protest, we will tell them, ‘Please be understanding. Let them have your daughters, for we didn’t find enough wives for them when we dest60royed Jabesh-gilead. And you are not guilty of breaking the vow since you did not give your daughters in marriage to them.'” So the men of Benjamin did as they were told. They kidnapped the women who took part in the celebration and carried them off to the land of their own inheritance. Then they rebuilt their towns and lived in them. So the assembly of Israel departed by tribes and families, and they returned to their own homes.

Obviously these women were repeatedly raped. These sick ******** killed and raped an entire town and then wanted more virgins, so they hid beside the road to kidnap and rape some more. How can anyone see this as anything but evil?

2) Murder, rape and pillage of the Midianites (Numbers 31:7-18)

They attacked Midian just as the LORD had commanded Moses, and they killed all the men. All five of the Midianite kings – Evi, Rekem, Zur, Hur, and Reba – died in the battle. They also killed Balaam son of Beor with the sword. Then the Israelite army captured the Midianite women and children and seized their cattle and flocks and all their wealth as plunder. They burned all the towns and villages where the Midianites had lived. After they had gathered the plunder and captives, both people and animals, they brought them all to Moses and Eleazar the priest, and to the whole community of Israel, which was camped on the plains of Moab beside the Jordan River, across from Jericho.

Moses, Eleazar the priest, and all the leaders of the people went to meet them outside the camp. But Moses was furious with all the military commanders who had returned from the battle. “Why have you let all the women live?” he demanded. “These are the very ones who followed Balaam’s advice and caused the people of Israel to rebel against the LORD at Mount Peor. They are the ones who caused the plague to strike the LORD’s people. Now kill all the boys and all the women who have slept with a man. Only the young girls who are virgins may live; you may keep them for yourselves.

Clearly Moses and God approves of rape of virgins.

3) More Murder Rape and Pillage (Deuteronomy 20:10-14)

As you approach a town to attack it, first offer its people terms for peace. If they accept your terms and open the gates to you, then all the people inside will serve you in forced labor. But if they refuse to make peace and prepare to fight, you must attack the town. When the LORD your God hands it over to you, kill every man in the town. But you may keep for yourselves all the women, children, livestock, and other plunder. You may enjoy the spoils of your enemies that the LORD your God has given you.

What kind of God approves of murder, rape, and slavery?

4) Laws of Rape (Deuteronomy 22:28-29)

If a man is caught in the act of raping a young woman who is not engaged, he must pay fifty pieces of silver to her father. Then he must marry the young woman because he violated her, and he will never be allowed to divorce her.

What kind of lunatic would make a rape victim marry her attacker? Answer: God.

5) Death to the Rape Victim (Deuteronomy 22:23-24)

If within the city a man comes upon a maiden who is betrothed, and has relations with her, you shall bring them both out of the gate of the city and there stone them to death: the girl because she did not cry out for help though she was in the city, and the man because he violated his neighbors wife.

It is clear that God doesn’t give a damn about the rape victim. He is only concerned about the violation of another mans “property”.

Is the Muslim Jesus cited in the Qur'an possibly historical?

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Be your own guru

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)

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