Who is the Baha’i Jesus and how does He differ from the Christian Jesus?

adrian009 said:

Who is the Baha’i Jesus and how does He differ from the Christian Jesus?

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It seems that the Bahai Jesus, like the Bahai Muhammad, Bahai Moses and all the other Bahai prophets is a Bahai problem.

Bahai is an Abrahamic Faith, needs to erect itself upon the foundations of all those other religions if it is to appear genuine. If they fall, it falls!

But it doesn't particularly like their whole packages. Bahai wants to agree with them or it falls down, so it 'sort of' agrees with them and hopes that folks will climb over all the other Abrahamic religious to ......... Bahai!

It's no good.......... Bahai needs to be more honest about....... Bahai beliefs.

Vouthon said:

Thought-provoking topic for discussion @adrian009, I very much enjoyed reading through the OP (your threads are on fire at the moment ).

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That's great news. I'm currently working my way through religious questions that I personally find interesting and relevant. It sounds as if we have quite similar interests. I note from another post you considered converting to the Baha'i Faith at one stage. I'm not surprised to learn that as you appear to be the most Baha'i leaning Christian on the forum! It also accounts for why you know far more about the Baha'i Faith than most people on the forum, some Baha'is included. Hey, you end up teaching me about the Baha'i Faith, so if anyone properly answer the OP question it is you.

Vouthon said:

This is a h-huuuge comparative exercise given the reams upon reams of material in Baha'i, Christian and scholarly literature - not to mention the Islamic accounts (Qur'anic, Hadith and Sufi sayings tradition as recorded in some Al-Ghazali's works) - concerning their varying portraits of Jesus. So much has been written about his character and teachings by people from a broad cross-range of perspectives that it can be intimidating, sometimes, to even broach the topic. But you have broached it

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How does the saying go? Fools rush in where angels fear to tread....

Vouthon said:

The 'composite' orthodox Christian understanding of Jesus, as articulated doctrinally and shaped by the biblical, creedal and Patristic data, aligns pretty precisely with your description of it in the OP.

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That's good to know.

Vouthon said:

Here's my own quick and 'rough' summary (given that I'm pushed for time today but will participate more fully when I have the time to afford to it!):

Jesus is considered by orthodox Christians to be the incarnation of God the Son (Second Person of the Trinity) also known as the eternal Word of God (as this 'Divine Person' is also known pre-incarnately) "God from God, light from light, true God from true God, Begotten and not made, of one Being with the Father" to quote the Nicene creed. He is the one 'through whom' God the Father created the universe.

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Vouthon said:

One God, one Lord, one eternal, one uncreated, one essence and substance and yet eternally subsisting of Three Persons/relations mutually indwelling: the Unity in Trinity, one coeternal and coequal God, as this triskele window pane from a medeival Gothic cathedral depicts in visual terms:

So, for Christians, the Second Person/relation/Word became incarnate as a human being in the womb of the Virgin Mary and near to his thirtieth year of age, the now fully human (as well as fully divine) Jesus came out of the shadows - so to speak - to embark upon his public career of ministry as an itinerant preacher of the "Kingdom of God" throughout Galilee and Judea, after being baptised by John in the river Jordan and subjected to temptation/testing by himself in the wilderness for 40 days/40 nights.

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Excellent. The Baha'i view would lean towards a spiritual incarnation rather than literal or physical incarnation.

A key verse in one of Baha'u'llah's Baghdad works the Kitab-i-Iqan refers to the dual station of the Manifestations of God, namely that of servitude and Divinity which you have rightly quoted in a previous post highlighting these distinctions.

To be continued;

History of occult radiation nuclear conversion of God O Earth our planet says, extra radiation mass disperses and causes a higher mass of gas to burn.

For a male to invent a formula/design model to convert God the Earth stone fusion, then he has to own equals as a radiation state. To claim as much radiation in the atmosphere to the mass radiation to allow me to convert mass, that is held not in any state fission. Which is common sense.

O pi, if it is God on the face of the deep, spirits that belonged to O Earth as stone a one of entity, Heavens owned by Earth, its spirits, then it said God owned the Immaculate, and the Immaculate owned the light.

So it said natural light existed in radiating gases, without radiation x mass.

Hence they said it was God, the spirit of (gases) in deep space, for it filled in empty space moving, as an expression, God moves on the face of water. For it owns rotating movement, circular movement in the upper Heavenly mass. Description God.

Therefore if science of the occult increased the gas mass burning until that mass was totally sacrificed and gone as a mass....then it fell out burning, no longer being cooled for over abundance of radiation x mass, then it did. That quote was CH gases historically that arose out of God the stone inside of the Earth atmosphere.

One condition you could never discuss as a mystery. The spatial cold womb and also the Earth heaven ownership Immaculate, as relative advice.

Living inside of the atmosphere science knew and were aware of the CH gases for science. For science to own beginning and an end says so.

Infinite, space as highest body, coldest body says it owns no beginning point/position and no end point position for it remains the same....emptiness and coldest condition....as relative science advice.

Spiritual aware humans taught that when a Prophet or Messenger on behalf of GOD, meaning stone arrived on Earth, it was due to spatial cooling from his known science/occult converting/overheating of space...that causes natural disasters and loss of inner God mass O in fusion...for space owned the reason why God mass even existed held.....as relative science advice.

Spiritual awareness said...due to space cooling and regaining stone gases, our life is improving and we are becoming more spiritual. So was the theme taught and a newly born baby was born in Bethlehem for that area as an Immaculate gain, heavenly change.

Reasoning, whatever mutated GENETIC first born defect had been removed...so it was a medical healer reasoning. As Genesis is medical self advice.

Yet when a Prophet/Messenger is gained as a healing of the human life/spirit, to still use Temple sciences, then the humans who realised then realise an evil personal bodily attack as an adult self. For their newly gained baby DNA, grown up to be an adult in a scientific occult irradiated atmosphere, where the Temple science was being practiced, harmed them greatly.

So they said to everyone else, we were more personally harmed in DNA life than you were, for we only just got returned our life DNA, and now you took it from us....as the only spiritual advice that a spiritual human can give to any other human, not involved in being life sacrifice by conditions of.

Therefore the medical prophecy for the newly born/returned holy baby life said would occur in the future and spiritual humanity would become evolved and it will be notified and witnessed. And it was, in many nations. And not all nations obtained the relevant DNA healing changes, for the ground fusion of Earth in country of life is a variable in stone and mountain owned fusion.

Dependant on when volcanic eruption/earthquakes and UFO history in science converted Earth historically. Why each holy brother has his own holy life DNA story that discusses healing and returning to a known spirituality to then having it evilly removed from him in a war against God and his life.

God meaning the body of stone fusion or as it was preached SION.

Vouthon said:

After gathering the Twelve Apostles and many more disciples, as well as performing a series of 'miraculous' deeds and being 'Transfigured' in the presence of his three closest followers on Mount Tabor (i.e. unveiling his 'divinity' to them), he finally set himself towards Jerusalem around the time of the Passover festival and celebrated a 'Last Supper' with his disciples in which he announced the inauguration of the 'New Covenant' in his blood, that would be shed for the reconciliation of the sins of the human race, and instructed his disciples to keep this 'Eucharistic' sacrifice involving the bread/body and wine/blood in perpetual memory of him until he came again.

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The Eternal Covenant of God is a central concept of the Baha'í Faith. So Jesus inaugurating a New Covenant is of central importance. The first verse of the Kitab-i-Aqdas reads:

THE first duty prescribed by God for His servants is the recognition of Him Who is the Dayspring of His Revelation and the Fountain of His laws, Who representeth the Godhead in both the Kingdom of His Cause and the world of creation. Whoso achieveth this duty hath attained unto all good; and whoso is deprived thereof hath gone astray, though he be the author of every righteous deed. It behooveth everyone who reacheth this most sublime station, this summit of transcendent glory, to observe every ordinance of Him Who is the Desire of the world. These twin duties are inseparable. Neither is acceptable without the other. Thus hath it been decreed by Him Who is the Source of Divine inspiration.

The Kitáb-i-Aqdas | Bahá’í Reference Library

So there was a spiritual duty for the peoples of Christ's era to recognise the Manifestation of God for His day and to follow His Teachings. It was no longer sufficient to follow Moses. The Hebrew scriptures had predicted Christ and Christ brought a New Covenant from God as had Moses, Abraham and Noah before Him.

As you no doubt appreciate the Body of Christ Himself came to symbolise the Church through the letters of Paul.

1) Members of the Body of Christ are joined to Christ in salvation (Ephesians 4:15-16).

2) Members of the Body of Christ follow Christ as their Head (Ephesians 1:22-23)

3) Members of the Body of Christ are the physical representation of Christ in this world. The Church is the organism through which Christ manifests His life to the world today.

4) Members of the Body of Christ are indwelt by the Holy Spirit of Christ (Romans 8;9)

5) Members of the Body of Christ share a common bond with their fellow Christians, regardless of background, race, or ministry. “There should be no division in the body, and its parts should have equal concern for each other (1 Corinthians 12;25)

Vouthon said:

Jesus was subsequently betrayed by one of his apostles, Judas Iscariot, and arrested by the Judean priestly authorities, who proceeded to try and place the conviction of blasphemy on his head before turning him over to the Roman governor Pontius Pilate for crucifixion. After some 'humming-and-hawing' (in the gospel accounts), Pilate ultimately charges Jesus with sedition against the Roman Empire and delivers him over to a brutal fate - tortue-death humiliation - as a condemned criminal.

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In regards the Gospel that Christ brought, it is seen by Bahaú'llah in the Kitab-i-Iqan as being protected and under God's unerring guidance.

We have also heard a number of the foolish of the earth assert that the genuine text of the heavenly Gospel doth not exist amongst the Christians, that it hath ascended unto heaven. How grievously they have erred! How oblivious of the fact that such a statement imputeth the gravest injustice and tyranny to a gracious and loving Providence! How could God, when once the Day-star of the beauty of Jesus had disappeared from the sight of His people, and ascended unto the fourth heaven, cause His holy Book, His most great testimony amongst His creatures, to disappear also? What would be left to that people to cling to from the setting of the day-star of Jesus until the rise of the sun of the Muḥammadan Dispensation? What law could be their stay and guide? How could such people be made the victims of the avenging wrath of God, 90 the omnipotent Avenger? How could they be afflicted with the scourge of chastisement by the heavenly King? Above all, how could the flow of the grace of the All-Bountiful be stayed? How could the ocean of His tender mercies be stilled? We take refuge with God, from that which His creatures have fancied about Him! Exalted is He above their comprehension!

Bahá'í Reference Library - The Kitáb-i-Íqán, Pages 81-93

Vouthon said:

He then perished on the cross, vicariously suffering for the sinfulness of humankind (I'm not going to wade into which 'atonement' doctrine is preferrable, as some theologians favour Christus Victor whereas others are more persuaded by Anselm's penal substitution/satisfaction theory and others still by Abelard's moral influence model) but rose from the dead on the third day: thus triumphing over both sin and the 'shadow of death', before ascending into heaven to be at the "right hand of the Father" with the promise of the commissioning of the 'Holy Spirit' in his stead, the one who would dwell 'within' the disciples and make Christ remain with them until the end of time, guiding them forever thereafter into the fullness of truth. And for orthodox Christians, this promise was fulfiled on the feast of Pentecost soon after the death, resurrection and ascension, with the outpouring of the Spirit of Truth (the Third Person of the Trinity) upon the apostles gathered together with the Virgin Mary in the 'upper room' (the Cenacle) in Jerusalem.

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Ábdu'l-Baha speaks of the Trinity in Some Answered Questions;

QUESTION: WHAT IS the meaning of the Trinity and of its three Persons?

Answer: The reality of the Divinity is sanctified and exalted beyond the comprehension of all created things, can in no wise be imagined by mortal mind and understanding, and transcends all human conception. That reality admits of no division, for division and multiplicity are among the characteristics of created and hence contingent things, and not accidents impinging upon the Necessary Being.

The reality of the Divinity is sanctified above singleness, then how much more above plurality. For that divine reality to descend into stations and degrees would be tantamount to deficiency, contrary to perfection, and utterly impossible. It has ever been, and will ever remain, in the loftiest heights of sanctity and purity. All that is mentioned regarding the manifestation and revelation of God pertains to the effulgence of His light and not to a descent into the degrees of existence.

God is pure perfection and the creation is absolute imperfection. For God to descend into the degrees of existence would be the greatest of imperfections; rather, His manifestation, dawning, and effulgence are even as the appearance of the sun in a clear, bright, and polished mirror.

All created things are resplendent signs of God. For instance, the rays of the sun shine upon all earthly things, yet the light that falls upon the plains, the mountains, the trees and fruits is only in such measure as to make them visible, to ensure their growth, and to cause them to attain the object of their existence. The Perfect Man, however, is even as a clear mirror in which the Sun of Truth is revealed and manifested in the fullness of its attributes and perfections. Thus the reality of Christ was a bright and polished mirror of the greatest purity and clarity. The Sun of Truth, the Essence of the Divinity, appeared in that mirror and manifested its light and heat therein, yet it did not descend from the heights of holiness and the heaven of sanctity to reside within it. No, it continues to abide in its loftiness and sublimity, but has been revealed and manifested in the mirror in all its beauty and perfection.

Now, if we were to say that we have beheld the Sun in two mirrors—one Christ and the other the Holy Spirit—or, in other words, that we have seen three Suns—one in heaven and two upon the earth—we would be speaking the truth. And if we were to say that there is only one Sun, that it is absolute singleness, and that it has no peer or partner, we would again be speaking the truth.

The purport of our words is that the reality of Christ was a clear mirror wherein the Sun of Truth—that is, the divine Essence—appeared and shone forth with infinite perfections and attributes. It is not that the Sun, which is the Essence of the Divinity, was ever divided or multiplied—for it remains one—but it became manifest in the mirror. That is why Christ said, “The Father is in the Son”, meaning that that Sun is manifest and visible in this mirror.

The Holy Spirit is the outpouring grace of God which was revealed and manifested in the reality of Christ. Prophethood is the station of the heart of Christ, and the Holy Spirit is the station of His spirit. It is thus evident and established that the Essence of the Divinity is absolute oneness and has no peer, equal, or likeness.

This is the true meaning of the three Persons of the Trinity. Otherwise, the foundations of the religion of God would rest upon an illogical proposition which no mind could ever conceive, and how could the mind be required to believe a thing which it cannot conceive? Such a thing could not be grasped by human reason—how much less be clothed in an intelligible form—but would remain sheer fancy.

Now, this explanation clarifies the meaning of the three Persons of the Trinity and establishes at the same time the oneness of God.

Some Answered Questions | Bahá’í Reference Library

Vouthon said:

So, where do you wish to begin my friend in comparing this Christology with the one presented by the Bab, Baha'u'llah, Abdu'l-Baha and Shoghi Effendi in the Baha'i Writings?

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As said to another the writings of the Central Figures of the Baha'i Faith and the interpretations and elucidations of the Guardian should be seen as a cohesive work from which we can build a coherent picture of who Christ was. So the starting point for me is currently the summary Shoghi Effdendi outlines as to the Baha'í position in regards Christianity:

As to the position of Christianity, let it be stated without any hesitation or equivocation that its divine origin is unconditionally acknowledged, that the Sonship and Divinity of Jesus Christ are fearlessly asserted, that the divine inspiration of the Gospel is fully recognized, that the reality of the mystery of the Immaculacy of the Virgin Mary is confessed, and the primacy of Peter, the Prince of the Apostles, is upheld and defended. The Founder of the Christian Faith is designated by Bahá’u’lláh as the “Spirit of God,” is proclaimed as the One Who “appeared out of the breath of the Holy Ghost,” and is even extolled as the “Essence of the Spirit.” His mother is described as “that veiled and immortal, that most beauteous, countenance,” and the station of her Son eulogized as a “station which hath been exalted above the imaginings of all that dwell on earth,” whilst Peter is recognized as one whom God has caused “the mysteries of wisdom and of utterance to flow out of his mouth.” “Know thou,” Bahá’u’lláh has moreover testified, “that when the Son of Man yielded up His breath to God, the whole creation wept with a great weeping. By sacrificing Himself, however, a fresh capacity was infused into all created things. Its evidences, as witnessed in all the peoples of the earth, are now manifest before thee. The deepest wisdom which the sages have uttered, the profoundest learning which any mind hath unfolded, the arts which the ablest hands have produced, the influence exerted by the most potent of rulers, are but manifestations of the quickening power released by His transcendent, His all-pervasive and resplendent Spirit. We testify that when He came into the world, He shed the splendor of His glory upon all created things. Through Him the leper recovered from the leprosy of perversity and ignorance. Through Him the unchaste and wayward were healed. Through His power, born of Almighty God, the eyes of the blind were opened and the soul of the sinner sanctified…. He it is Who purified the world. Blessed is the man who, with a face beaming with light, hath turned towards Him.”

Bahá'í Reference Library - The Promised Day Is Come, Pages 108-113

Vouthon said:

I'll address the 'divinity' doctrine first in our comparative exercise:

Naturally, both religious frameworks conceive of Jesus as the incarnation of a priorly existent 'unembodied' person. In this respect, Christians and Baha'is concur - over against our Islamic brothers and sisters - to the extent that we each affirm the humanity of Christ originating from his conception in the womb of the Virgin Mary (something Christians, Muslims and Baha'is all accept as a divinely revealed truth) and his pre-existent 'divinity', which is of another order and degree in kind (which Muslims reject as shirk, associating partners with Allah).

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Agreed.

Vouthon said:

Where the Baha'i Writings and Christian theology diverge is, therefore, not over the doctrine of the "incarnation" itself (as with Christianity and Islam) but rather over what manner or mode of 'divinity' became incarnate in the womb of Mary. For orthodox Christians - whether Catholic, Protestant or Eastern - the Divine Person conceived of the Virgin is 'consubstantial with God the Father', that is: the uncreated essence of God became one personhood with the 'created essence' of a human being by assuming the latter (without thereby implying any division in the divine nature). As the Chalcedonian definition held in 451 CE:

"Following, then, the holy Fathers, we all unanimously teach that our Lord Jesus Christ is to us One and the same Son, the Self-same Perfect in Godhead, the Self-same Perfect in Manhood; truly God and truly Man; the Self-same of a rational soul and body; co-essential with the Father according to the Godhead, the Self-same co-essential with us according to the Manhood; like us in all things, sin apart; before the ages begotten of the Father as to the Godhead, but in the last days, the Self-same, for us and for our salvation..."

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That is a beautiful depiction of how Christ is God incarnate from a Christian perspective. I agree it is where Baha'is and Christians diverge. Christ is seen as being a perfect reflection of the attributes of God. However the Manifestation of God is seen as being exalted beyond human comprehension and embodies the realm of God in a manner impossible for any mere human.

Vouthon said:

And the so-called 'Athanasian creed' (though a misnomer given that St. Athanasius's didn't actually pen it!):


Athanasian Creed - Wikipedia


For the right Faith is, that we believe and confess; that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is God and Man; God, of the Substance [Essence] of the Father; begotten before the worlds; and Man, of the Substance [Essence] of his Mother, born in the world. Perfect God; and perfect Man, of a reasonable soul and human flesh subsisting. Equal to the Father, as touching his Godhead; and inferior to the Father as touching his Manhood. Who although he is God and Man; yet he is not two, but one Christ. One; not by conversion of the Godhead into flesh; but by assumption of the Manhood into God. One altogether; not by confusion of Substance [Essence]; but by unity of Person. For as the reasonable soul and flesh is one man; so God and Man is one Christ; Who suffered for our salvation; descended into hell; rose again the third day from the dead. He ascended into heaven, he sitteth on the right hand of God the Father Almighty, from whence he will come to judge the living and the dead.

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One again, its a beautiful representation of the Divinity Christ. It has many deep spiritual truth but is not a creed Bahaís are obliged to recite and accept. As the true nature of the Manifestation of God is a Divine mystery and God Himself is an unknowable essence, then we can not know for certain whether these exalted words represent the best depiction of God and His Son.

Vouthon said:

For Baha'is, on the other hand, the 'manner of divine being' that became incarnate in the person of Jesus is distinct in essence from God. The preincarnate Person of Christ is not 'God' but a created spiritual 'mirror' of God that subsequently assumed flesh. Indeed, the preincarnate Christ - whilst pre-existent before his birth in tandem with the souls of all the other Manifestations of God yet to be born or that have been made 'incarnate' and since died - is still in the Baha'i conception a created being.

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I agree. This appears to be a matter extremely important to you which you have reflected upon a great deal.

Vouthon said:

Jesus perfectly 'reflects' the attributes of God and using symbolic language one could say that he 'radiates' them (like a window filtering sunlight from the outside to illuminate the interior of a house) to the rest of the human race (i.e. He 'manifests' God) but he is not in 'essence' God; rather he is a created person in time - a 'mirror', not a 'container' so to speak.

Because He is the perfect 'mirror-image' of the Father, Baha'is would affirm (and indeed Baha'u'llah did affirm) that Christ has a 'divine station' - just like the other Manifestations of God - that no mere human individual could ever hope to attain, such that it is not imprecise or blasphemous for a Manifestation to declare (when speaking from the vantage point of their 'divine nature' as the reflected image of God): "I am God" and yet in equal breath to declare their 'servial' status before God as a mere 'human'.

Thus, Baha'u'llah stated quite plainly in Gleanings:


Bahá'í Reference Library - Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, Pages 50-56


Thus, viewed from the standpoint of their oneness and sublime detachment, the attributes of Godhead, Divinity, Supreme Singleness, and Inmost Essence, have been, and are applicable to those Essences of Being, inasmuch as they all abide on the throne of Divine Revelation, and are established upon the seat of Divine Concealment. Through their appearance the Revelation of God is made manifest, and by their countenance the Beauty of God is revealed. Thus it is that the accents of God Himself have been heard uttered by these Manifestations of the Divine Being.

Viewed in the light of their second station—the station of distinction, differentiation, temporal limitations, characteristics and standards—they manifest absolute servitude, utter destitution, and complete 54 self-effacement. Even as He saith: “I am the servant of God. I am but a man like you.”…

Were any of the all-embracing Manifestations of God to declare: “I am God,” He, verily, speaketh the truth, and no doubt attacheth thereto. For it hath been repeatedly demonstrated that through their Revelation, their attributes and names, the Revelation of God, His names and His attributes, are made manifest in the world. Thus, He hath revealed: “Those shafts were God’s, not Thine.”

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Vouthon said:

I would contend that the Christian and Baha'i 'christologies' are closer than the corresponding orthodox Islamic doctrine of Isa al-Masih but also 'different', insofar as this issue of uncreated/created 'essence' and consubstantiality with the Father is concerned.

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I would be inclined to agree.

adrian009 said:

So there was a spiritual duty for the peoples of Christ's era to recognise the Manifestation of God for His day and to follow His Teachings.

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What is manifestation?
Is every person a manifestation?

adrian009 said:

Now, this explanation clarifies the meaning of the three Persons of the Trinity and establishes at the same time the oneness of God.

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In short of what you described, Baha'i believes in the Trinity?



Houston really have a problem these COVID days.

'We were getting panicked calls': After 100% capacity debacle, Houston hospitals make reporting changes

Muffled said:

I believe since I haven't read much of their writings, it is all new to me. Of course unlike God who tends toward terse verse, the B man does tend to carry on and on like a guru.

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That could be said of Christ and Muhammad.

Muffled said:

I believe when the leader is massively glorified it can lead to bad things as with Jim Jones. On the other hand God in the flesh ought to be glorified.

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So where is the Jim Jones story in the Baha'i Faith?

Windwalker said:

he term I've heard recently, and I believe it was something Crossan called it, there is the historical Jesus, and the theological Jesus. That is the Jesus of faith, which entails all our mythologies about him. It's a nice distinction.

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I agree.

Windwalker said:

Just to reiterate, I think rather than saying, "theological concepts in regards the Biblical Jesus," it makes clearer distinction to say these are two distinct perceptions, or ways of looking at Jesus. They aren't so much about trying to tie them to the historical Jesus, as it is a set of glasses through which people interpret their faith through their shared mythologies and symbols.

I would say that list is the perception of faith, meaning found in symbols, such as Trinity, Virgin birth, etc. These are really held differently than a historical perspective. The Jesus of history, can for many, interfere with their theological Jesus, or their Jesus of faith. This is where you have the rise of conservative scholarship to keep that Jesus from interfering with their theology, and people who gravitate towards that in order to preserve their faith being threatened by it. "What do these modern scholars really know," as an example of defense.

Where it gets interesting for me personally, is that for me at this stage in my attempt to reconcile the parts of my faith that had meaning from the rest that did not, is how I am able to take the historical perspective, sans the mythology, and do this comfortable dance between them, which in reality liberates the mythology to serve as myth in transcendence. These myths are ladders which the soul climbs upon, towards self-realization, Awakening, Enlightenment, or Salvation. Having them analyzed through the cold lens of facts and data, and then compared and contrasted with the symbols of faith, sullies their abilities to serve us. It confuses us.

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It sounds as if you are in a good place with your Christian faith.

Windwalker said:

And I see this as a continuum of the same sort of "theological perspective", as what created the mythologies surrounding the "historical Jesus". This is another example of what scholars would term mythmaking, the formation of symbolic meanings, apart and beyond facts of history. Muhoman was not technically trying to correct "theological views" within Christianity with "facts". He was no historian. He was no modernist. His words were themselves part of that mythmaking process. They became the vocabulary of future generations, as the Christian language did before. They are theological perspectives of history, not historical reality. These are different things.

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Muhammad's views of Christianity during the seventh century were both affirming and somewhat critical. It was particular theological concepts such as the Divinity of Christ, His Sonship and Trinity He appeared to criticise.

Windwalker said:

Interesting history. What part of the U.S. did the Baha'i take root in primarily as it entered America? What years?

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Chicago appears to be the starting point.

Baháʼí Faith in the United States - Wikipedia

Baha'i communities appear to have been well established prior to Ábdu'l-Baha's nine month journey through America. It was the Baha'is of North America who spread their new found faith worldwide. The religion had become persecuted and suppressed in Islamic countries and Russia after the establishment of communism.

Windwalker said:

I would be interested in seeing how that would be when held up against modern scholarship, that cold lens of the "historical perspective". The theological perspective would be a different evaluation.

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It is challenging to find an objective history of the Baha'i Faith not written by Baha'is themselves or those who are very critical of it. However the historical Baha'u'llah is always going to be clearer than the historic Muhammad or Christ. Theologies are a work in progress but there's plenty of original writings to be used as a reference point.

MJFlores said:

What is manifestation?
Is every person a manifestation?

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The best example from a Christian perspective, is Jesus the Christ.

They are the chosen Messenger/Prophet of God. A person who comes forth from the Holy Spirit, given of God and they are the First and the Last, the Alpha and Omega the Beginning and the End.

Other men are born of the Human Spirit which is given at conception and we need Faith in the Messenger/Manifestation to bring forth from us that image we have been created in, to be as they are. True faith is shown in deeds and service to all humanity.

It is a big topic.

RegardsTony

From my perspective as a Baha'i, I see Jesus far transcends all Names. I see Christ, the Son of God is the true reality of Jesus, a spiritual Station of the Holy Spirit given of God.

As such that Spirit is the Eternal aspect of Jesus, whereas we know Jesus has said the flesh amounts to nothing.

So where I see I differ from what Christains may currently understand, is that I do not need to see the flesh of Jesus to know that Jesus was Christ, the Son of God. I see Jesus Christ in all of God's given Messages and likewise I see all other names were also manifested in Jesus Christ.

Regards Tony

Tony Bristow-Stagg said:

Christ, the Son of God.

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You believe that Jesus was the son of God as in the sired monogenis?

firedragon said:

You believe that Jesus was the son of God as in the sired monogenis?

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I see it is a Station that we can used to understand who Jesus was. Christ means Jesus was Annointed with that Station, it is not to me a material fact, even if I believe that Jesus was a virgin birth.

I have no idea what the 'sired monogenis' is. Sorry as my time has been limited for a few months and a couple more, as I am doing study for work qualifications, so sorry have not looked it up.

Baha'u'llah is known as the Father, so that to me shows how we can understand Jesus can be known as the Son.

Thank you for your tollerance of my learned ignorance.

RegardsTony

Tony Bristow-Stagg said:

I see it is a Station that we can used to understand who Jesus was. Christ means Jesus was Annointed with that Station, it is not to me a material fact, even if I believe that Jesus was a virgin birth.

I have no idea what the 'sired monogenis' is. Sorry as my time has been limited for a few months and a couple more, as I am doing study for work qualifications, so sorry have not looked it up.

Baha'u'llah is known as the Father, so that to me shows how we can understand Jesus can be known as the Son.

Thank you for your tollerance of my learned ignorance.

RegardsTony

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monogenis - only begotten as bible says

You believe that Jesus was the son of God as in the sired monogenis?

InChrist said:

While I think you highlighted some important points concerning the biblical Jesus there are some main ones you left out, such as: Jesus Christ is the Savior who died for the sin of the world ( Luke 2:11; John 3:15-16; 4:42) and that He is the One Mediator between humans and God (1 Timothy 2:5).

From my understanding, Baha’is believe that Bahá’u’lláh is a greater manifestation of God than Moses, Muhammad, or the Savior Jesus Christ. So I would consider the Baha’i version of Jesus to be a false Christ, which Jesus Himself referred to... ( Mark 13:22; Matthew 24:24). Along with a false Christ, I think the Baha’i goal toward the unification of all religions falls right into the preparation for the coming one world religion and rule of the Antichrist.

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Thanks for your post.

While Baha'is believe in the same NT as Christians we would be more inclined to consider Biblical scholarship that critically evaluates the historic and textural context of what is written. I've heard far too many Christians that take selected passages literally and refuse any critical analysis. So we need to consider the historic NT setting nearly two thousand years ago. Jesus was a Jewish Religious Teacher whose audience was almost exclusively Jewish. Those who accepted His Message believed Him to be the fulfilment of prophecies in Hebrew scripture. So when Christians start quoting biblical verses that ignore this historic context its highly problematic IMHO. We no longer live in a world run by autocratic emperors where slavery is legitimized along with the suppression of women's rights. NT scripture doesn't directly refer to Islam as it wasn't to emerge for another six hundred years. Nor was there any consideration of Buddhism or Hinduism to geographic separation.

Baha'is see all the Manifestations of God as equal, whether Moses, Jesus, Muhammad, or Baha'u'llah. Where they differ is a matter of history, culture and geography. The Baha'i message appears more suited to the modern world than the Christian message. The Baha'i Faith does not attempt to unify all the religions, rather creates a plausible narrative to explain their common origins. We work to build constructive relationships between peoples of all faiths. Who the antichrist is and what the NT has to say about antichrists is off topic of course. We are discussing Christ, not antichrists.

Thanks again for sharing your comments.

VoidoftheSun said:

Is my understanding correct that the term "The Son (of God)" is taken as a synonym with "Manifestation of God", but that in the case of Jesus it was a special symbolic title associated with him?

Each Prophet being somewhat of a manifestation of "The Son", in this sense?

Each "Manifestation of God" obviously being, as defined usually by Baha'i's as like reflections of rays of the Sun (of Reality).
If so, then I so radically respect such a view, with it's aspects of precedent in Babism, Shaykhism, Ismailism and even Vaishnavite Hinduism (being the Avatara doctrine, to which you'd attribute Krishna, etc)

I think it does better work at "reconciling" (though that perhaps is not the correct word cause we're dealing with the Ontology of Prophetology) these different theological views.

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Its worth considering Moses had the title 'Friend of God', Muhammad Messenger of God' and Baha'u'llah "Glory of God'.

Baha'is view Krishna as a Manifestation of God and see Buddha as being the ninth Avatar of Vishnu and also a Manifestation. The avatar concept has some similarities with returned Prophets within Abrahamic traditions.

Each Manifestation of God is seen as being a perfect reflection of the Divine who Message is communicated in accordance with the language, concept and culture of the time from which they emerge. This explains to some degree their diverse teachings and means of communicating.

As a spiritualist who is taught by a review of multi spirit teachings about creative aspects that her brother states, living as that human self, I call his preaching a philosophy of his science wisdom.

For I was taught spiritually to always abstract self from ownership as a human and identify with the study.

So if I said I was God, first as an entity I would claim I was a planet, a stone planet and a stone planet that released its own spirit into space and formed it owns spirit of its owned heavens.

And I would not be there in that picture or image or thought, and know therefore I am not personally God. I would also know that I am not personally any of his scientific human named and described conditions in his statements for the sciences.

For I also know I am not Christ, I also know he is not Christ....the reason for this status, these gases/spirits arose out of the emptying out of the body of God, the Saints in the God body stone, the entombed.

Exactly how science explained it. God O the planet owned the Christ.

We lived and survived when the gases and spirits were held in the highest form, constantly without change. Meaning when light remains as light in the natural holy conditions, to be light and water was a part of that theme.

That God the spirits of from O stone, floated in the great deep and its movement was fluid as a spirit moving on the face of the water.

So water is said to be separate to the spirits of God and God held and owned light due to water, as simple an explanation that a human can say to her brother, versus his science arguments about why God destroyed life.

firedragon said:

I was stating the Quranic view since you quote it.


Thanks. I started with Al Kithab al Akdhas because its written in Arabic it is easier for me to look at the manuscripts itself. It was interesting. And I have also read Kithab I iqan but the English translation of course. My perspective on the faith is not necessary and is irrelevant. The Bahai perspective on Jesus is harmonising but has very big fundamental differences as well. By the way, I believe I have all the documents you have cited above, I also have purchased various other books by Women, Buck, Reingold on the Millerism concept, Hartz and Peter Smith etc. But lol, I have not read any of them.

I do not like to read peoples perspectives generally as if they are scripture but I find most people read perspectives rather than the scripture themselves. I find a lot of differences in theology anyway, yet I shall leave it at that. Obviously irrelevant.

The key difference between the Bahai Faith and the Christian understanding of Jesus is the trinity. It cannot be reconciled in my opinion, it can be harmonised with effort.

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I'm impressed you have read as much as you have and purchased some books. Being able to read Arabic is a great asset. It is best to be able to understand a faith through studying the writings first hand rather than what others have to say about them.

I don't see the Trinity as problematic as the word is never mentioned in the NT. It is man made doctrine to reconcile certain theological concepts in regards Christology such as the nature of Jesus, His Divinity, Sonship, the Father, and the Holy Spirit. While the doctrine can be admired for its elegance and the weighty concepts it attempts to reconcile, the nature of God and His Manifestations can never be fully understood.

oldbadger said:

It seems that the Bahai Jesus, like the Bahai Muhammad, Bahai Moses and all the other Bahai prophets is a Bahai problem.

Bahai is an Abrahamic Faith, needs to erect itself upon the foundations of all those other religions if it is to appear genuine. If they fall, it falls!

But it doesn't particularly like their whole packages. Bahai wants to agree with them or it falls down, so it 'sort of' agrees with them and hopes that folks will climb over all the other Abrahamic religious to ......... Bahai!

It's no good.......... Bahai needs to be more honest about....... Bahai beliefs.

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I'd be much more concerned about the reliability of the historical Celsus than anything Baha'is have to say.

Celsus - Wikipedia

When consciousness, changed due to the male self becoming a designer that was ANTI to the existence of natural stone, first a mineral product as owned by space and the body planet, then he designed conscious abstraction from self reality.

And placed it with the UFO feed back science owned model MASS O to remove machine. For the original theme to move a mountain was its disappearance by UFO O mass into non existence. Why he said the pyramid was a time transporter machine...it made the physical disappear he said.

The physical however never went anywhere, only a portion did x mass O of what he designed...so virtually he disappeared in conscious living presence.

So he had to preach I am an adult male Father self. I invented the sciences. My son however is an innocent baby, he never knew, yet he grows into becoming a Father like my self and inherits my evil thoughts....so then I have to preach yet the spirit (in science is all gases) are Noble and HOLY...and I own them all present is how he taught life relativity so he would not try to remove self ever again.

Samantha Rinne said:

There is no Bahai Jesus, because Jesus is represented in Christianity.

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Sounds like you are either unwilling or unable to address the question.