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The Trinity: Was Athanasius Scripturally Right?

SLPCCC

Active Member
Oh, although alleluia (or hallelujah) is a common phrase in churches and the music, it is NOT God's name. The name JEHOVAH is written entirely in some church music. You may or may not know this. Glad you know at least that it means "Praise Jah." Good for that!

I learned it when I was a teenager. I had a friend who was Pentecostal. The family invited me to their church one evening. When I went, I got freaked out seeing all these people getting the spirit and jumping up and down saying, "Alleluia!", "Alleluia!". When we left, they explained that they were getting the spirit and were saying, "Praise Jehovah". I'll never forget it. It was weird.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
The point is that the JWs go out preaching Jehovah's name, not following the scriptures, when Jesus and nowhere in the bible does it say to go out teaching the name, "Jehovah". The JWs go out doing what some uninspired men told them to do not what the bible says to do.
Jesus said he made his Father's name known. I did not hear that point or know about it when I went to church and engaged in their music as a professional musician. But sometimes (not often) the divine name Jehovah was used in the music. So I knew that both from school and the churches I attended. Even though I realize they are not employing the Name correctly.

John 17:26- Righteous Father, although the world has not known You, I know You, and they know that You sent Me. 26And I have made Your name known to them and will continue to make it known, so that the love You have for Me may be in them, and I in them.”

Either God is a trinity of persons each equal to the others, or not. Everything I have learned and read speaks against God being a trinity of three co-equal co-eternal persons without beginning. That includes the topic, the so-called Athanasian creed. And I haven't even discussed in depth yet the so-called "third person" of what is considered the trinity, the holy spirit. But -- it's been fun talking with you. To an extent.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
I learned it when I was a teenager. I had a friend who was Pentecostal. The family invited me to their church one evening. When I went, I got freaked out seeing all these people getting the spirit and jumping up and down saying, "Alleluia!", "Alleluia!". When we left, they explained that they were getting the spirit and were saying, "Praise Jehovah". I'll never forget it. It was weird.
I am happy to say I never attended a Pentecostal meeting, I agree it would have freaked me out. But you may be interested to know that the name Jehovah is included in classical music (non-Pentecostal) and is also in a beautiful hymn which had been sung at the National Cathedral. Not that I would agree with the concept of who the composer had in mind when he used the name Jehovah in that beautiful hymn, but not only Pentecostals use the name.
Furthermore, now that you mention it, why is it you don't speak in tongues (or glossalia)?
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
The scriptures cannot be contradicting themselves. The Father and the Son are two different persons. We can agree on that.

1 Corinthians 15:28 says:
  • “When all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, so that God may be all in all.”
Jesus has always been and will always be under the authority of the Father. Before he was the Word. He was under the authority of the Father as the "Word". Throughout Scripture, we read how the Father directs the Son (1 Corinthians 11:3). That is why Jesus calls the Father “God” when He is in His Divine Nature. This would be like your son calling you “the Man of the House”. When your son calls you “the Man”, he does not mean to imply that he is less human than you, does he? Of course not! So, it is with Jesus calling the Father “My God”. Jesus has always been and will always be under the authority of the Father.

At the same time, Jesus is also called God.

  • At Hebrews 1:8 But about the Son he [Jehovah] says, "Your throne, O God, will last forever and ever; a scepter of justice will be the scepter of your kingdom.
  • John 20: 28 Thomas answered him, "My Lord and my God!"
  • Isaiah 9:6 "For a child has been born to us, A son has been given to us; And the rulership will rest on his shoulder. His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace,"
  • John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
So reasoning we have to take that Jesus is under God the Father but is also God the Son. But there cannot be two Gods because that would be polytheism. And the scriptures cannot be contradicting each other; therefore, they must be both the same in nature but not the same in persons, both God but one the Father and the other the son.
OK, let's go over your post a little bit. You say Jesus has always been and will always be under the authority of the Father. I don't know about you, but to me that means Jesus is "under authority" of the Father. And he is. But he willingly submits to that authority. Which brings up an interesting question about first born. Which I may go into another time.
 

SLPCCC

Active Member
I am happy to say I never attended a Pentecostal meeting, I agree it would have freaked me out. But you may be interested to know that the name Jehovah is included in classical music (non-Pentecostal) and is also in a beautiful hymn which had been sung at the National Cathedral. Not that I would agree with the concept of who the composer had in mind when he used the name Jehovah in that beautiful hymn, but not only Pentecostals use the name.
Furthermore, now that you mention it, why is it you don't speak in tongues (or glossalia)?

I've heard it in a Catholic church too. In fact, I've heard in many other religious places. The Jehovah's Witnesses think that they are unique. Many religious not only use the name but also don't get into politics, don't go to war, stay separate from outsiders, don't believe in the Trinity. The Jehovah's Witnesses believe that they are the only ones. What make them different from the others is that nowhere does the bible says to go out and preach Jehovah's name. They are the only ones going against the bible when it comes to that.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
@SLPCCC - I am not pitting myself against scholars. I leave that to others. I have tried to understand and dissect many of their statements and find that they revert in many ways back to the indistinguishable unprovable premise of a triune godhead with three co-equal and co-eternal persons, rather than go into the thought that while there is one TRUE God (and Jesus is the image of God), there are others called gods and lords that are NOT the "true God" or His image (Jesus Christ). This is undeniable.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
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I've heard it in a Catholic church too. In fact, I've heard in many other religious places. The Jehovah's Witnesses think that they are unique. Many religious not only use the name but also don't get into politics, don't go to war, stay separate from outsiders, don't believe in the Trinity. The Jehovah's Witnesses believe that they are the only ones. What make them different from the others is that nowhere does the bible says to go out and preach Jehovah's name. They are the only ones going against the bible when it comes to that.
First of all, you do know that the way we say Jesus in English was never said that way when Jesus was alive, don't you? That's just for starters. It's a shame so many religions do not teach real basics yet people cling to these beliefs such as the Athanasian Creed.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
No, that is not what I'm saying. You can have a king who is greater than his subjects. But this does not mean that the King is a greater human. They are both human, the same. Think of a father and son. The son subjects himself to his father but that doesn't mean that the son is less human. Although Jesus subjects himself to the father, it doesn't make him a less of God. They are both the same in Being but they are not two Gods. The bible says as you know there is only one God. Jesus and the Father is one God. Note the following scriptures:

1) God and Jesus are both Saviours
  • Isaiah 43:11 I, even I, am Jehovah; and besides me there is no saviour. (Notice that it says there is no saviour but God)
  • Titus 3:6 which he poured out upon us richly, through Jesus Christ our Saviour;
2) God and Jesus are both called Lord or Lords
  • Deut 10:17 For Jehovah your God, he is God of gods, and Lord of lords, the great God, the mighty, and the terrible, who regardeth not persons, nor taketh reward.
  • Rev 19: 16 And he hath on his garment and on his thigh a name written, KINGS OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.
3) God and Jesus are called the Alpha and the Omega and the first and the last
  • Isaiah 44:6 I am the first, and I am the last, and beside me, there is no God”
  • Rev 1:8 I am the Alpha and the Omega, saith the Lord God, who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.
  • Rev 22: 12, 13, 20 "Look! I'm coming soon. . . I am the alpha and the omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end. . . The one who bears witness to these things says, "Yes, I'm coming soon." Amen. Come, Lord Jesus! Also see Rev 1:8; 21:6
4) They are both called God and mighty God with a capital "G"
  • At Isaiah 10: 21 A remnant shall return, [even] the remnant of Jacob, unto the mighty God. Also see Jeremiah 32:18 and Zephaniah 3:17)
  • Isaiah 9:6 A son has been given to us; And the rulership will rest on his shoulder. His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace,"

5) At Rev 7-8 Jesus is called Almighty (We know this is Jesus because he was pierced and is coming)
  • Rev: 7-8 Behold, he cometh with the clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they that pierced him; and all the tribes of the earth shall mourn over him. Even so, Amen. I am the Alpha and the Omega, saith the Lord God, who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.
6) They both are said to have created all things
  • Col 1:16, 17 - For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities--all things were created through him and for him. And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together.
  • Isaiah, 44:24, "Thus says the LORD, your Redeemer, and the one who formed you from the womb, 'I, the LORD, am the maker of all things, stretching out the heavens by Myself, and spreading out the earth all alone.'"
7) Jesus is called God by Thomas, Peter, Paul, and John 1:1
  • John 20: 28 Thomas answered him, "My Lord and my God!"
  • Titus 2:13 “Waiting for our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Chris
  • 2 Peter 1:1 Simeon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, to those who have obtained a faith of equal standing with ours by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ.
  • 2 Peter 1: 11 For in this way there will be richly provided for you an entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
  • John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
8) Jesus' name means "With us is God"
  • Matt 1: 23 Behold, the virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, And they shall call his name Immanuel; which is, being interpreted, God with us.
9) The singular "name" is used instead of the plural "names" indicating one.
  • Matt 28: 19, 20 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age."
10) When Jesus uses "I Am" the Jews know what he means and want to kill him.
  • John 8:58,59 - Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am." So they picked up stones to throw at him, but Jesus hid himself and went out of the temple.
11) God calls Jesus God
  • Hebrews 1:8 But about the Son he [Jehovah] says, "Your throne, O God, will last forever and ever; a scepter of justice will be the scepter of your kingdom.
12) Jesus says that he will raise his body from the dead
  • John 2: 19-22 - Jesus answered them, "Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up." ...he was speaking about the temple of his body. When therefore he was raised from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this...
  • John 10:17-18; 2:19 “…I lay down My life that I may take it again. No one has taken it away from Me, but I lay it down on My own initiative. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again.…Destroy this temple, and in three days I [Jesus] will raise it up.”
13) Jesus says if you see him, you see the father
  • John 14: 9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and dost thou not know me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; how sayest thou, Show us the Father?

All the scriptures above show they are equal. All these scriptures and more agree with:
  1. The scholars who say that not only did Jesus claimed to be God but that the Christian believe he was God.
  2. The early first Christian writers.
  3. Athanasius' arguments
Scriptures that non-trinitarian used like Jesus saying that the "father is greater" or that "only God is good" and others can be explained away. Those are straw man arguments used by the JWs leaders.
You are trying so hard. (But still not making much sense. Sad, really.) Enjoy whatever religion you finally align yourself with. Not one scripture says that all three persons are equal. Unfortunately you misunderstand John 14:9. Jesus is the perfect reflection of the Father. But in any case, left the holy spirit out.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
I've heard it in a Catholic church too. In fact, I've heard in many other religious places. The Jehovah's Witnesses think that they are unique. Many religious not only use the name but also don't get into politics, don't go to war, stay separate from outsiders, don't believe in the Trinity. The Jehovah's Witnesses believe that they are the only ones. What make them different from the others is that nowhere does the bible says to go out and preach Jehovah's name. They are the only ones going against the bible when it comes to that.
What did you hear in a Catholic church? Hallelujah? You are really getting funny. I suggest you pray, I'm going to pray about you and our conversation, too. Again -- nothing in the Athanasian creed adds up to the Bible. You almost sound like you'd be a crusader. :) I am sure the Pharisees felt that way about Jesus.
 

SLPCCC

Active Member
@SLPCCC - I am not pitting myself against scholars. I leave that to others. I have tried to understand and dissect many of their statements and find that they revert in many ways back to the indistinguishable unprovable premise of a triune godhead with three co-equal and co-eternal persons, rather than go into the thought that while there is one TRUE God (and Jesus is the image of God), there are others called gods and lords that are NOT the "true God" or His image (Jesus Christ). This is undeniable.

I wouldn't expect you to understand anything except what your leaders teach because you are indoctrinated.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
I wouldn't expect you to understand anything except what your leaders teach because you are indoctrinated.
You do know that a man and woman are said to be one. Don't you? But the woman is to be in subjection to the man. Not the other way around. But at this point it doesn't matter how a person wants to explain it as if the TWO not three are co-equals because they are humans
Remember Eve was taken from Adam's rib. Their children came as a result of intercourse between the two of them. They were all human. Not the same in age. One was younger than the one she came from. The son was younger than the two parents. I'm discussing scriptures. You really do not show where the three so-called persons are equal and coeternal as in always alive without beginning. God said let us make man in our image. Explain that away if you can.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
I wouldn't expect you to understand anything except what your leaders teach because you are indoctrinated.
You make me smile because I'm discussing scriptures and you're telling me what you think I should believe.
 

SLPCCC

Active Member
You do know that a man and woman are said to be one. Don't you? But the woman is to be in subjection to the man. Not the other way around. But at this point it doesn't matter how a person wants to explain it as if the TWO not three are co-equals because they are humans
Remember Eve was taken from Adam's rib. Their children came as a result of intercourse between the two of them. They were all human. Not the same in age. One was younger than the one she came from. The son was younger than the two parents. I'm discussing scriptures. You really do not show where the three so-called persons are equal and coeternal as in always alive without beginning. God said let us make man in our image. Explain that away if you can.


I'm going to try to explain this again, then I'm going back to research.

Think of light. When light shines, it has rays and energy. All three are different yet they are of the same substance. You cannot have light without the rays and energy. You cannot have rays without the light and the energy and so on. All three are of one substance, yet each one is different.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
I'm going to try to explain this again, then I'm going back to research.

Think of light. When light shines, it has rays and energy. All three are different yet they are of the same substance. You cannot have light without the rays and energy. You cannot have rays without the light and the energy and so on. All three are of one substance, yet each one is different.
Did they use the name Jehovah in the Catholic Church? Or just alleluia?
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
I'm going to try to explain this again, then I'm going back to research.

Think of light. When light shines, it has rays and energy. All three are different yet they are of the same substance. You cannot have light without the rays and energy. You cannot have rays without the light and the energy and so on. All three are of one substance, yet each one is different.
Your research has not shown that there are two persons co-equal and coeternal without beginning, much less three. But carry on, it's interesting for me to see.
 
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firedragon

Veteran Member
I'm going to try to explain this again, then I'm going back to research.

Think of light. When light shines, it has rays and energy. All three are different yet they are of the same substance. You cannot have light without the rays and energy. You cannot have rays without the light and the energy and so on. All three are of one substance, yet each one is different.

What about pressure?
 

Hockeycowboy

Witness for Jehovah
Premium Member
@SLPCCC - I am not pitting myself against scholars. I leave that to others. I have tried to understand and dissect many of their statements and find that they revert in many ways back to the indistinguishable unprovable premise of a triune godhead with three co-equal and co-eternal persons, rather than go into the thought that while there is one TRUE God (and Jesus is the image of God), there are others called gods and lords that are NOT the "true God" or His image (Jesus Christ). This is undeniable.

Of course! They get twisted up in their reasoning, trying to explain....why? Because, as Trinitarians admit, it is a mystery!

You cannot logically explain “a mystery”. They worship a god they cannot understand.

Fortunately, Jesus said at John 4:22-24, “we worship what we know.
The Father alone, Jehovah (Yahweh, if you speak Hebrew,)

They’re actually breaking the First Commandment.
Plus, Trinitarians have been killing their brothers since Constantine the Great...it’s obvious, they don’t have Jehovah’s spirit or blessing. Jesus’ blessing, either. John 15:17; John 13:34-35; Matthew 5:44; John 15:14; Matthew 7:21-23. Titus 1:16

I’m through. They can argue all they want...Facts speak louder.
 

SLPCCC

Active Member
Prayer to God: Father and/or Son?

If Jesus isn't God than prayers and prayers for the forgiveness of sins should be directed to only the Father, Jehovah God. If Jesus is God than prayers to both father and Son would be reasonable. When I attended a Catholic church, I noticed that they prayed to both the father and the son. When I attended a nondenominational church, I notice they prayed only to Jesus. I think I can confidently assume that if you go to any non-trinitarian church they would only prayer to the Father or Jehovah.

When reading one of the Jehovah’s Witness journal, I read at Romans 10:13 in the Jehovah’s Witness Bible
  • “For everyone who calls on the name of Jehovah will be saved.”
Understanding that the JWs can be biased, I looked at their Kingdom Interlinear Translation of the Greek Scriptures. and it reads this way,
  • “everyone for who likely might call upon the name of Lord will be saved.
We know Jesus has been called Lord in the bible (Rev 19:16, John 20: 28) so I asked myself, "Which is it, Lord Jehovah or Lord Jesus?

Consider these verses of Acts 4:10,12 and 22:16:
  • “Let it be known to all of YOU and to all the people of Israel, that in the name of Jesus Christ the Naz·a·rene´, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead… there is no salvation in anyone else, for there is not another name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must get saved.’ ‘…Rise, get baptized and wash your sins away by your calling upon his name.’”
Notice, "...in the name of Jesus Christ...no salvation in anyone else...not another name...by which we must get saved. In the WTS Kingdom Interlinear Translation of the Greek Scriptures. at John 14:14 it says,
  • “If ever anything you should ask me in the name of me this I shall do.”


I quoted the literal English text under the Kingdom Interlinear’s Greek text because the translators of the Watchtower Bible removed the first “me” in “ask me” from their New World Translation. In removing the first “me,” we see not only clear dishonesty in the New World Translation of Jehovah’s Witnesses but we can also notice that Jesus not only proclaims that we are to “ask” Him for an answer to our petition, but He is the one who responds to our prayers: “…Notice that Jesus says "This I shall do.” He does not say: “…this Jehovah shall do” or “…this the Father shall do.”

This shows that Jesus answers prayers. It also shows that Jesus encourages His disciples to address their prayers directly to Him. In the scriptures, Steven must have known this when he prayed to Jesus. At Acts 7: 59-60, after seeing a vision of Jesus, when he is about to die, Steven prays to Jesus,
  • Stephen, calling upon [the Lord], and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit. And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep.
Not only did Steven prayed to Jesus but Paul also prayed to Jesus. At 2 Corinthians 12:8-9 I read,
  • "Three times I prayed to the Lord about this and asked him to take it away. But his answer was: "My grace is all you need, for my power is greatest when you are weak." I am most happy, then, to be proud of my weaknesses, in order to feel the protection of Christ's power over me.
Here Paul prayed to the “Lord” Jesus three times and Jesus answered his prayer by saying: “My power is greatest when you are weak.” Paul concluded by saying, “ I am most happy, then, to be proud of my weaknesses, in order to feel the protection of Christ's power over me.” So, here again, we see an example of a Christian in the Bible praying to the Lord Jesus with Jesus responding to the prayer with His “underserved kindness” and “power.”

At John 10:27-30, Jesus promised:
  • My sheep listen to my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. And I give them everlasting life, and they will by no means ever be destroyed, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. What my Father has given me is something greater than all other things, and no one can snatch them out of the hand of the Father. I and the Father are one.”


Analyzing Romans 10:13 in the Jehovah’s Witness Bible and Acts 4:10,12 and 22:16:

  • “For everyone who calls on the name of Jehovah will be saved.”
  • “Let it be known to all of YOU and to all the people of Israel, that in the name of Jesus Christ the Naz·a·rene´…by this one does this man stand here sound in front of YOU. …Furthermore, there is no salvation in anyone else, for there is not another name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must get saved.’ ‘…Rise, get baptized and wash your sins away by your calling upon his name.’”
A question comes up. If we are to “call upon” Jehovah’s name in prayer for salvation, why do these verses say that we must call upon Jesus’ name and “not another name” for salvation? If Jehovah’s name must be invoked in prayer for salvation, why would Acts 4:12 say that there is “not another name” but the name of Jesus “by which we must get saved”? It is clear from these passages that the “calling upon” of Jesus name is a prerequisite for salvation and the washing away of our sins. Jesus said at John 6:45:

  • “Everyone that has heard from the Father and has learned comes to me.”

If you have learned from Jehovah, you are commanded to “come to” Jesus. Have you come to Jesus by asking Him to wash away your sins and to give you eternal life? At John 10:27-30, Jesus promised:

  • My sheep listen to my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. And I give them everlasting life, and they will by no means ever be destroyed, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. What my Father has given me is something greater than all other things, and no one can snatch them out of the hand of the Father. I and the Father are one.”

How can you “listen to” Jesus voice if you don’t communicate with Him in prayer? How can you receive “everlasting life” if you don’t ask Jesus to give it to you? Jesus said at John 14:6:

  • “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.”

How can you go “through” Jesus to get to the Father if you do not deal directly with Jesus by first going to Him in prayer for salvation?
  • “…with all who in every place call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, their Lord and ours… God is faithful, through whom you were called into fellowship with His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord.” —1 Corinthians 1:2, 9 3.

How can you have a “fellowship” with Jesus if you never pray to Him? One must pray to Jesus and the Father according to the scriptures. And why do Jehovah's Witnesses go door to door only preaching about Jehovah and not Jesus?
 
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YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
Prayer to God: Father and/or Son?

If Jesus isn't God than prayers and prayers for the forgiveness of sins should be directed to only the Father, Jehovah God. If Jesus is God than prayers to both father and Son would be reasonable. When I attended a Catholic church, I noticed that they prayed to both the father and the son. When I attended a nondenominational church, I notice they prayed only to Jesus. I think I can confidently assume that if you go to any non-trinitarian church they would only prayer to the Father or Jehovah.

When reading one of the Jehovah’s Witness journal, I read at Romans 10:13 in the Jehovah’s Witness Bible
  • “For everyone who calls on the name of Jehovah will be saved.”
Understanding that the JWs can be biased, I looked at their Kingdom Interlinear Translation of the Greek Scriptures. and it reads this way,
  • “everyone for who likely might call upon the name of Lord will be saved.
We know Jesus has been called Lord in the bible (Rev 19:16, John 20: 28) so I asked myself, "Which is it, Lord Jehovah or Lord Jesus?

Consider these verses of Acts 4:10,12 and 22:16:
  • “Let it be known to all of YOU and to all the people of Israel, that in the name of Jesus Christ the Naz·a·rene´, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead… there is no salvation in anyone else, for there is not another name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must get saved.’ ‘…Rise, get baptized and wash your sins away by your calling upon his name.’”
Notice, "...in the name of Jesus Christ...no salvation in anyone else...not another name...by which we must get saved. In the WTS Kingdom Interlinear Translation of the Greek Scriptures. at John 14:14 it says,
  • “If ever anything you should ask me in the name of me this I shall do.”


I quoted the literal English text under the Kingdom Interlinear’s Greek text because the translators of the Watchtower Bible removed the first “me” in “ask me” from their New World Translation. In removing the first “me,” we see not only clear dishonesty in the New World Translation of Jehovah’s Witnesses but we can also notice that Jesus not only proclaims that we are to “ask” Him for an answer to our petition, but He is the one who responds to our prayers: “…Notice that Jesus says "This I shall do.” He does not say: “…this Jehovah shall do” or “…this the Father shall do.”

This shows that Jesus answers prayers. It also shows that Jesus encourages His disciples to address their prayers directly to Him. In the scriptures, Steven must have known this when he prayed to Jesus. At Acts 7: 59-60, after seeing a vision of Jesus, when he is about to die, Steven prays to Jesus,
  • Stephen, calling upon [the Lord], and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit. And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep.
Not only did Steven prayed to Jesus but Paul also prayed to Jesus. At 2 Corinthians 12:8-9 I read,
  • "Three times I prayed to the Lord about this and asked him to take it away. But his answer was: "My grace is all you need, for my power is greatest when you are weak." I am most happy, then, to be proud of my weaknesses, in order to feel the protection of Christ's power over me.
Here Paul prayed to the “Lord” Jesus three times and Jesus answered his prayer by saying: “My power is greatest when you are weak.” Paul concluded by saying, “ I am most happy, then, to be proud of my weaknesses, in order to feel the protection of Christ's power over me.” So, here again, we see an example of a Christian in the Bible praying to the Lord Jesus with Jesus responding to the prayer with His “underserved kindness” and “power.”

At John 10:27-30, Jesus promised:
  • My sheep listen to my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. And I give them everlasting life, and they will by no means ever be destroyed, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. What my Father has given me is something greater than all other things, and no one can snatch them out of the hand of the Father. I and the Father are one.”


Analyzing Romans 10:13 in the Jehovah’s Witness Bible and Acts 4:10,12 and 22:16:

  • “For everyone who calls on the name of Jehovah will be saved.”
  • “Let it be known to all of YOU and to all the people of Israel, that in the name of Jesus Christ the Naz·a·rene´…by this one does this man stand here sound in front of YOU. …Furthermore, there is no salvation in anyone else, for there is not another name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must get saved.’ ‘…Rise, get baptized and wash your sins away by your calling upon his name.’”
A question comes up. If we are to “call upon” Jehovah’s name in prayer for salvation, why do these verses say that we must call upon Jesus’ name and “not another name” for salvation? If Jehovah’s name must be invoked in prayer for salvation, why would Acts 4:12 say that there is “not another name” but the name of Jesus “by which we must get saved”? It is clear from these passages that the “calling upon” of Jesus name is a prerequisite for salvation and the washing away of our sins. Jesus said at John 6:45:

  • “Everyone that has heard from the Father and has learned comes to me.”

If you have learned from Jehovah, you are commanded to “come to” Jesus. Have you come to Jesus by asking Him to wash away your sins and to give you eternal life? At John 10:27-30, Jesus promised:

  • My sheep listen to my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. And I give them everlasting life, and they will by no means ever be destroyed, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. What my Father has given me is something greater than all other things, and no one can snatch them out of the hand of the Father. I and the Father are one.”

How can you “listen to” Jesus voice if you don’t communicate with Him in prayer? How can you receive “everlasting life” if you don’t ask Jesus to give it to you? Jesus said at John 14:6:

  • “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.”

How can you go “through” Jesus to get to the Father if you do not deal directly with Jesus by first going to Him in prayer for salvation?
  • “…with all who in every place call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, their Lord and ours… God is faithful, through whom you were called into fellowship with His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord.” —1 Corinthians 1:2, 9 3.

How can you have a “fellowship” with Jesus if you never pray to Him? One must pray to Jesus and the Father according to the scriptures. And why do Jehovah's Witnesses go door to door only preaching about Jehovah and not Jesus?
Unfortunately, while I realize your zeal to prove a triune godhead, your references have not shown that there are two persons co-equal and coeternal without beginning, much less three. But it's interesting to see your explanations trying to support the Athanasian Creed. The trinity. As Jesus said to his disciples...our Father in heaven...he did not tell them to pray to me as God not human but God anyway in the flesh (as a trinitarian here said he was praying to himself), and the Father, and the holy spirit. He specified who he wanted the disciples to pray to. Notice this, please... Matthew 6:8,9 "For your Father knows the things you have need of before you ask Him. 9In this manner, therefore, pray:
Our Father in heaven,
Hallowed be Your name."
Thanks for conversation.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
Prayer to God: Father and/or Son?

If Jesus isn't God than prayers and prayers for the forgiveness of sins should be directed to only the Father, Jehovah God. If Jesus is God than prayers to both father and Son would be reasonable. When I attended a Catholic church, I noticed that they prayed to both the father and the son. When I attended a nondenominational church, I notice they prayed only to Jesus. I think I can confidently assume that if you go to any non-trinitarian church they would only prayer to the Father or Jehovah.

When reading one of the Jehovah’s Witness journal, I read at Romans 10:13 in the Jehovah’s Witness Bible
  • “For everyone who calls on the name of Jehovah will be saved.”
Understanding that the JWs can be biased, I looked at their Kingdom Interlinear Translation of the Greek Scriptures. and it reads this way,
  • “everyone for who likely might call upon the name of Lord will be saved.
We know Jesus has been called Lord in the bible (Rev 19:16, John 20: 28) so I asked myself, "Which is it, Lord Jehovah or Lord Jesus?

Consider these verses of Acts 4:10,12 and 22:16:
  • “Let it be known to all of YOU and to all the people of Israel, that in the name of Jesus Christ the Naz·a·rene´, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead… there is no salvation in anyone else, for there is not another name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must get saved.’ ‘…Rise, get baptized and wash your sins away by your calling upon his name.’”
Notice, "...in the name of Jesus Christ...no salvation in anyone else...not another name...by which we must get saved. In the WTS Kingdom Interlinear Translation of the Greek Scriptures. at John 14:14 it says,
  • “If ever anything you should ask me in the name of me this I shall do.”


I quoted the literal English text under the Kingdom Interlinear’s Greek text because the translators of the Watchtower Bible removed the first “me” in “ask me” from their New World Translation. In removing the first “me,” we see not only clear dishonesty in the New World Translation of Jehovah’s Witnesses but we can also notice that Jesus not only proclaims that we are to “ask” Him for an answer to our petition, but He is the one who responds to our prayers: “…Notice that Jesus says "This I shall do.” He does not say: “…this Jehovah shall do” or “…this the Father shall do.”

This shows that Jesus answers prayers. It also shows that Jesus encourages His disciples to address their prayers directly to Him. In the scriptures, Steven must have known this when he prayed to Jesus. At Acts 7: 59-60, after seeing a vision of Jesus, when he is about to die, Steven prays to Jesus,
  • Stephen, calling upon [the Lord], and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit. And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep.
Not only did Steven prayed to Jesus but Paul also prayed to Jesus. At 2 Corinthians 12:8-9 I read,
  • "Three times I prayed to the Lord about this and asked him to take it away. But his answer was: "My grace is all you need, for my power is greatest when you are weak." I am most happy, then, to be proud of my weaknesses, in order to feel the protection of Christ's power over me.
Here Paul prayed to the “Lord” Jesus three times and Jesus answered his prayer by saying: “My power is greatest when you are weak.” Paul concluded by saying, “ I am most happy, then, to be proud of my weaknesses, in order to feel the protection of Christ's power over me.” So, here again, we see an example of a Christian in the Bible praying to the Lord Jesus with Jesus responding to the prayer with His “underserved kindness” and “power.”

At John 10:27-30, Jesus promised:
  • My sheep listen to my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. And I give them everlasting life, and they will by no means ever be destroyed, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. What my Father has given me is something greater than all other things, and no one can snatch them out of the hand of the Father. I and the Father are one.”


Analyzing Romans 10:13 in the Jehovah’s Witness Bible and Acts 4:10,12 and 22:16:

  • “For everyone who calls on the name of Jehovah will be saved.”
  • “Let it be known to all of YOU and to all the people of Israel, that in the name of Jesus Christ the Naz·a·rene´…by this one does this man stand here sound in front of YOU. …Furthermore, there is no salvation in anyone else, for there is not another name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must get saved.’ ‘…Rise, get baptized and wash your sins away by your calling upon his name.’”
A question comes up. If we are to “call upon” Jehovah’s name in prayer for salvation, why do these verses say that we must call upon Jesus’ name and “not another name” for salvation? If Jehovah’s name must be invoked in prayer for salvation, why would Acts 4:12 say that there is “not another name” but the name of Jesus “by which we must get saved”? It is clear from these passages that the “calling upon” of Jesus name is a prerequisite for salvation and the washing away of our sins. Jesus said at John 6:45:

  • “Everyone that has heard from the Father and has learned comes to me.”

If you have learned from Jehovah, you are commanded to “come to” Jesus. Have you come to Jesus by asking Him to wash away your sins and to give you eternal life? At John 10:27-30, Jesus promised:

  • My sheep listen to my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. And I give them everlasting life, and they will by no means ever be destroyed, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. What my Father has given me is something greater than all other things, and no one can snatch them out of the hand of the Father. I and the Father are one.”

How can you “listen to” Jesus voice if you don’t communicate with Him in prayer? How can you receive “everlasting life” if you don’t ask Jesus to give it to you? Jesus said at John 14:6:

  • “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.”

How can you go “through” Jesus to get to the Father if you do not deal directly with Jesus by first going to Him in prayer for salvation?
  • “…with all who in every place call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, their Lord and ours… God is faithful, through whom you were called into fellowship with His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord.” —1 Corinthians 1:2, 9 3.

How can you have a “fellowship” with Jesus if you never pray to Him? One must pray to Jesus and the Father according to the scriptures. And why do Jehovah's Witnesses go door to door only preaching about Jehovah and not Jesus?
One cannot go to the Father without the Son.
 
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