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Do you agree with AOC that cutting a billion dollars form NYC police is just not enough?

Quetzal

A little to the left and slightly out of focus.
Premium Member
Crime rising. Police discouraged. Shut it down?
and who will protect the city? Batman?

AOC says proposed $1B budget cut to NYPD isn't enough: 'Defunding police means defunding police’
We must be careful. This is a delicate situation and we need a well thought out plan of action that can be implemented in stages. After each stage, there needs to be an extended period of evaluation. Simply slashing the budget ad-hoc is not a viable solution, in my ill-informed option.
 

February-Saturday

Devil Worshiper
I'm an anarchist and, no, I do not believe we should be dismantling the entire executive branch of government over night. I'm a reformist. I think anarchy is the ideal we should strive for, not a system that we should try to forcefully thrust the entire nation into.

I do think that, generally speaking, the police do more harm than good. It's easy to scaremonger about rising crime, but the police themselves escalate situations and often bring violence with them while they're basically free of repercussions. At least in organized crime I can hire a hitman to take out the guy that ran over my kids. The mafia has more accountability than the gang in blue.

My Family Saw a Police Car Hit a Kid -- Then I Learned How NYPD Impunity Works

And while violent crime might be on the rise without law enforcement, law enforcement is mostly just legalized violence and robbery as it is. It's hard to take these complaints seriously. The police are out abducting people for victimless crimes so that they can sell them into slavery underneath private prisons. Is that really better?

Unfortunately, I do think that right now it is better until we have more reform. Large changes like this cannot happen over night without some steep negative consequences. It might even destabilize us for an invasion, and I doubt that China or Russia would be any less authoritarian than what we have now. CHOP was a complete nightmare according to the people I know who are living in it.

People are sheep. I'm sorry, but they are. Right now, the police are our shepherds. We need new and better shepherds to supersede law enforcement, but getting rid of the shepherds entirely without significant social reform is outright insane. I don't think any intelligent anarchist is advocating for that.
 

whirlingmerc

Well-Known Member
She is definitely not a person of compromise. If that is who the people of her district want to represent them. :shrug:

I don't believe most NYC residents think getting rid of police is a good idea.

Some like her in your face attitude but reality has not set in.
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber
We must be careful. This is a delicate situation and we need a well thought out plan of action that can be implemented in stages. After each stage, there needs to be an extended period of evaluation. Simply slashing the budget ad-hoc is not a viable solution, in my ill-informed option.
Yup. Cutting funds doesn't change policy. It doesn't streamline training. It doesnt set much needed standards for hiring. It doesnt fix bad policing. It doesnt end bad laws. It wont address jail and prison overcrowding or inmate mistreatment (including long term isolated confinement) or with integrating inmates back into society. Race, sex amd gender, and mental health concerns and relationships with those groups will nto be addressed. It will nkt be instantly made illegal for police to have sex with people they detain, nor will it clamp down on illegal roadside strip and cavity searches. And, ironically, it won't fix the problems of money and its effect on the application of law.
 

Quetzal

A little to the left and slightly out of focus.
Premium Member
She is definitely not a person of compromise. If that is who the people of her district want to represent them. :shrug:
I am left of center myself and this is pretty spot-on in my estimation. I find that she is normally stepping in directions I support, but she needs to learn how to compromise.
 

whirlingmerc

Well-Known Member
I am left of center myself and this is pretty spot-on in my estimation. I find that she is normally stepping in directions I support, but she needs to learn how to compromise.

And a compromise should not look like city council members hiring expensive body guards and leaving citizens unprotected as was one citiy's example

Where is Batman and the Green Arrow and Supergirl? They are cost effective. OK fictional...
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber
I don't believe most NYC residents think getting rid of police is a good idea.

Some like her in your face attitude but reality has not set in.
IMO, its rooted in the unacknowledged racism of white upstate New York liberals Malcolm X mentioned. Those liberals say race, but they only mention black and white, and thats not the entirety of America or the only groups who are oppressed amd butchered by the police. This seems to be why they consistently talk about bad police towards black people and not much else. They don't talk about how Natives are killed by police more than anyother group. They dont talk about the women police rape. They don't mention the mentally ill and hiw the police is a bane to them as well. Nor do the talk about police being such a menace that many kf them think America is a warzone, that their life is constantly in danger, amd even children, the elderly, and the mayors they work for are not safe.
They think the problem entirely is racism towards black people.
 

whirlingmerc

Well-Known Member
IMO, its rooted in the unacknowledged racism of white upstate New York liberals Malcolm X mentioned. Those liberals say race, but they only mention black and white, and thats not the entirety of America or the only groups who are oppressed amd butchered by the police. This seems to be why they consistently talk about bad police towards black people and not much else. They don't talk about how Natives are killed by police more than anyother group. They dont talk about the women police rape. They don't mention the mentally ill and hiw the police is a bane to them as well. Nor do the talk about police being such a menace that many kf them think America is a warzone, that their life is constantly in danger, amd even children, the elderly, and the mayors they work for are not safe.
They think the problem entirely is racism towards black people.

The women police rape?
I do see about 50 police charged with that a year and it's sad.
These things should be carefully investigated

However defending police ... would that help?
In the case of CHOP there is already anarchy and violence and multiple shootings..
 

Quetzal

A little to the left and slightly out of focus.
Premium Member
And a compromise should not look like city council members hiring expensive body guards and leaving citizens unprotected as was one citiy's example

Where is Batman and the Green Arrow and Supergirl? They are cost effective. OK fictional...
Correct, I agree.
 

halbhh

The wonder and awe of "all things".
And a compromise should not look like city council members hiring expensive body guards and leaving citizens unprotected as was one citiy's example

Where is Batman and the Green Arrow and Supergirl? They are cost effective. OK fictional...
Good points! There is a reasonable middle road of reform of course, and the majority would support it, of requiring the chiefs of police to train as needed and to weed out officers that still aren't living up to the standards.

But another thing to remember is that in a way we imagine police keeping order more than they actually can(!).

Mostly it's the people that keep themselves in order, and when that breaks down much, past a certain level (and it's not much!), then the police have little power to stop it. Example: if 15% of people decided to start stealing, then even twice as many police still wouldn't be enough to even slow that down much, and 98%+ of thieves would get away with it.

Therefore, the real security isn't really how many police there are.

But instead the culture of the people -- for good or ill. And that depends a lot on the examples cultural leaders set, such as the president for instance -- the influence.

Imagine a president doing these:

" love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control."

That
would have a huge effect on the nation over time, and reduce crime in the only way that really works well: by helping improve the culture of the nation.

In other words, if you want a better security 3 years from now, elect a better president in a few months.
 

sun rise

The world is on fire
Premium Member
Wow. What a surprise that right wing types rely on right wing sources to reinforce their bias. I'm shocked.

Looking at the background of what she was talking about, I found this:

“It does not mean budget tricks or funny math. It does not mean moving school police officers from the NYPD budget to the Department of Education’s budget so the exact same police remain in schools.”

In other words, she's talking about real reform rather than a meaningless side shuffle designed to fool people that real reform is happening.

She's calling for less police presence where it's not needed and I support that.

The source of my quote? The slightly right leaning "The Hill" Ocasio-Cortez dismisses proposed $1B cut: 'Defunding police means defunding police'
 

George-ananda

Advaita Vedanta, Theosophy, Spiritualism
Premium Member
Does she even address the question of what does a city look like without police?

I've been driven to voting for Trump in November. I can't vote for a party that allows people like that to even be a member!
 

Notanumber

A Free Man
“The greatest criminals in America are the politicians that refuse to enforce the law and order which they swore to uphold!!!!”


The most dangerous cities in America are overwhelmingly run by Democrats.

Washington Post mocked for claiming Trump was wrong about violence in Dem-run cities: ‘Worst fact check ever’

The data essentially backed up the president’s case and the paper ran it anyway.

Black Americans are the demographic group MOST CONCERNED about a shortage of police officers and reduced public safety in the community where they live.
 
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