Is Abortion Murder?

Mitty · Jun 30, 2020

Deeje said:
No, but it is the language of the ones who interpreted it into English.....they should know how to interpret their own language.....right?

The test was for adultery not pregnancy...that was the point of the scripture. If the woman was pregnant then perhaps the penalty did include a termination but that was decided by God not men. That is the point of the scripture you keep repeating. It focuses on the adultery of both parties....and the penalty was that the adulteress would be prevented from having children....a cursed state in Israel.

Why is this so important to you.....? I am still trying to figure out what your beef is based on?
Adultery was a crime.....if you didn't want the penalty then you didn't commit the crime. Is that rocket science?
"You must not commit adultery" was part of the 10 Commandments...and it applied to all of God's people.

Through his prophet Malachi God said....
"I will come near to you for judgment, and I will be a swift witness against the sorcerers, against the adulterers, against those who take false oaths, against those who defraud the hired worker, the widow, and the fatherless child, and against those who refuse to help the foreigner. These have not feared me,” says Jehovah of armies." (Malachi 3:5)

Those guilty of such things did not fear that the true God would hold them accountable for their behavior. Believe me...he does. Do you want to argue with him? Good luck with that....

Do you have any evidence that adulteresses never become pregnant, given that Numbers 5:20-28 obviously commands the termination of pregnancies of adulteresses using a "bitter water" abortifacient?

If you believe otherwise, then why couldn't the god have a face to face discussion with the priest about the woman's guilt, in the same say that Abraham had a face to face discussion with his god about the number of righteous children in Gomorrah when they shared a non-kosher meal together, before the god walked down to Gomorrah to count them for itself since it was neither and omniscient or omnipresent type of god?

And what happens to the pregnancy of a woman who has not committed adultery and drinks a "bitter water" abortifacient and says "so be it, so be it"?

Numbers 5:20-28 The Voice
20 But if you are guilty of rejecting your husband’s authority and having sexual relations with someone other than your husband,” 21 [here the priest should make the woman say the cursing-oath], “then may the Eternal One make your name a shunning reproach, an insult or a warning among the people, because you will have a miscarriage and your belly will swell. 22 If you are guilty, may this curse-causing water run through your bowels, make your belly swell, and your womb miscarry.” And the woman shall say, “Amen. Let it be so.”

23 The priest will write these curses on a scroll and wash the words into the bitter water. 24 He’ll then make the woman drink the bitter water that will run right through her, causing terrible pain. 25 The priest will take the barley-flour jealousy offering that she was holding, raise it up high before the Me, bring it to the altar, 26 burn a handful (a memorial portion) of it into smoke on the altar, and then make the woman drink the water. 27 The effect (much pain with her belly swelling and her womb miscarrying) or lack thereof will show whether or not she’s guilty of marital unfaithfulness. If guilty, her name will be a curse among the Israelites. 28 If innocent and pure, she’ll be free from the water’s effects and still be able to have children.

OK, we are changing the goal posts now....?
Even though God permitted polygamy (though it was never part of his law, he did make provision for secondary wives (concubines) for several reasons....women outnumbered the men and in Israel a woman was supported by her husband. He provided for his wives and children and this gave many women the security of a marriage, children and a home and family in which to raise them. It did not last into Christianity however.

In Matthew 19:3-9, Jesus made it very clear what the standard for marriage was....and reinstituted the original standard of one man and one wife.

"And Pharisees came to him intent on testing him, and they asked: “Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife on every sort of grounds?” 4 In reply he said: “Have you not read that the one who created them from the beginning made them male and female 5 and said: ‘For this reason a man will leave his father and his mother and will stick to his wife, and the two will be one flesh’? 6 So that they are no longer two, but one flesh. Therefore, what God has yoked together, let no man put apart.” 7 They said to him: “Why, then, did Moses direct giving a certificate of dismissal and divorcing her?” 8 He said to them: “Out of regard for your hard-heartedness, Moses made the concession to you of divorcing your wives, but that has not been the case from the beginning. 9 I say to you that whoever divorces his wife, except on the grounds of sexual immorality, and marries another commits adultery.”

Like it or not...those are God's rules, plainly stated by Jesus. A Marriage is "yoked together" by God.

Marriage is a legal arrangement in most cultures....it is usually a recognized and registered event.
The first "marriage" was performed by God himself in bringing a wife to Adam. He then told them to have children and fill the earth with them.

In Bible times, a marriage was not something that involved a ceremony, though it sometimes was celebrated with a feast if one was wealthy. Jesus' first miracle was at such an event.

The marriage was a public event in front of witnesses, with the prospective husband and his betrothed fiance' coming together in one house. The groom would make his way to his fiance's house after preparing for her arrival in his own home, or even in the home of his parents. He would then escort his beautifully adorned bride to her new home, with well-wishers lining the street to cheer and bless the new couple. The marriage was then consummated and they were officially "husband and wife".

As long as a marriage is legal, it is recognized by God.

None of that changes the fact that a biblical marriage is simply a personal agreement between two people to shack up together and doesn't require a legally signed marriage contract or witnesses or a wedding celebrant etc. And it doesn't change the fact that Jesus condemned ALL remarried divorcees to hell unless they remain celibate and repent their adulterous marriages (Matt 5:27-30 Mark 10:11-12 Luke 16:18 Exodus 20). And it's your choice if you believe that Jesus and what he said is irrelevant.
Nor does it change that fact that the bible does not forbid polygamy, given that biblical morality is obviously just man-made and changes as society changes, which is why most people in civilized countries now support same-sex marriage, including the head of the Anglican church who even signed it into law.

Deeje · Jun 30, 2020

Mitty said:
Do you have any evidence that adulteresses never become pregnant, given that Numbers 5:20-28 obviously commands the termination of pregnancies of adulteresses using a "bitter water" abortifacient?

I still have no idea what your crusade is all about, unless its that you wish to dictate to God how to run his own business because you disagree with him.....if you have a problem, then take it up with the only one who has the right to sentence someone to death. That isn't me.

If you believe otherwise, then why couldn't the god have a face to face discussion with the priest about the woman's guilt, in the same say that Abraham had a face to face discussion with his god about the number of righteous children in Gomorrah when they shared a non-kosher meal together, before the god walked down to Gomorrah to count them for itself since it was neither and omniscient or omnipresent type of god?

Again, you want to dictate to God how he should do things because you disagree with what he does and how he does it.....you think he has a "Complaints Department"?

I would put that in the category of an ant on a railway track shaking his fist at the locomotive that is just about to squish him out of existence......does the locomotive even feel the bump? Seriously, all you are doing here is trying to tell God you don't approve of his rules....all duly noted...now what?

And what happens to the pregnancy of a woman who has not committed adultery and drinks a "bitter water" abortifacient and says "so be it, so be it"?

Since God is the one who has the right to determine who lives and who dies....if there was an illegitimate conception as the result of the adultery, the punishment is meted out to the mother who knew God's law and its stated penalty before she slept with a man who was not her husband. The death of any unborn child is on her head, not God's.

Numbers 5:20-28

The Voice
20 But if you are guilty of rejecting your husband’s authority and having sexual relations with someone other than your husband,” 21 [here the priest should make the woman say the cursing-oath], “then may the Eternal One make your name a shunning reproach, an insult or a warning among the people, because you will have a miscarriage and your belly will swell. 22 If you are guilty, may this curse-causing water run through your bowels, make your belly swell, and your womb miscarry.” And the woman shall say, “Amen. Let it be so.”

23 The priest will write these curses on a scroll and wash the words into the bitter water. 24 He’ll then make the woman drink the bitter water that will run right through her, causing terrible pain. 25 The priest will take the barley-flour jealousy offering that she was holding, raise it up high before the Me, bring it to the altar, 26 burn a handful (a memorial portion) of it into smoke on the altar, and then make the woman drink the water. 27 The effect (much pain with her belly swelling and her womb miscarrying) or lack thereof will show whether or not she’s guilty of marital unfaithfulness. If guilty, her name will be a curse among the Israelites. 28 If innocent and pure, she’ll be free from the water’s effects and still be able to have children.

Now you are making me laugh.....what erroneous translations say has no bearing on the truth of the matter....this has clearly become a crusade for you.....I can only assume that God's rules are making you angry for some reason and you wish to find excuses for not believing that he is a just God. That of course, is entirely up to you......but please understand that God will not change for you or anyone else who wants to disobey his laws.

None of that changes the fact that a biblical marriage is simply a personal agreement between two people to shack up together and doesn't require a legally signed marriage contract or witnesses or a wedding celebrant etc.

It does if you ignore everyone that I said to you....God is the one who "yokes" a couple together for life. If you disagree then fine.....that is your choice. God doesn't really care if you disagree or not. We actually qualify for citizenship in his new world to come...or we don't. That's it...he won't bend the rules for anyone.

And it doesn't change the fact that Jesus condemned ALL remarried divorcees to hell unless they remain celibate and repent their adulterous marriages (Matt 5:27-30 Mark 10:11-12 Luke 16:18 Exodus 20).

And it's your choice if you believe that Jesus and what he said is irrelevant. "Gehenna" is not "hell"...there is no such place. Who told you there was?
If you are hung up on the "going to hell" thing....rest assured that the worst thing that God will ever do to someone is take them out of existence....he will cancel their subscription to life. That's fair enough, isn't it?

Nor does it change that fact that the bible does not forbid polygamy, given that biblical morality is obviously just man-made and changes as society changes, which is why most people in civilized countries now support same-sex marriage, including the head of the Anglican church who even signed it into law.

I feel like I am talking to a broken record :facepalm:

.....the Bible does forbid polygamy for Christians, but God tolerated it in Israel for the reasons I mentioned. "Most people in civilized countries" have your attitude...they want to do what they want to do, and God can go and jump in the lake......trouble is he has a "lake" of his own that people will be thrown into.....nothing comes out of that place. But it is not a place of conscious existence....there is no suffering in that 'lake', if that makes you feel better.

"Christians" will answer to God for breaches of his law....regardless of what they call themselves.

Mitty · Jun 30, 2020

Deeje said:
I still have no idea what your crusade is all about, unless its that you wish to dictate to God how to run his own business because you disagree with him.....if you have a problem, then take it up with the only one who has the right to sentence someone to death. That isn't me.

I'm here to enlighten, and by definition only Christians have crusades and mark with the cross anyway.

Again, you want to dictate to God how he should do things because you disagree with what he does and how he does it.....you think he has a "Complaints Department"?

But what has a god got to do with the commandment in Numbers 5:20-28 to terminate the pregnancies of adulteresses? And I've never even seen a god anyway, let alone had a face to face conversation with one like Abraham did with his god (Gen 18). Nor have I ever had a wrestling match with a god like Jacob did when he was given a squirrel grip and groped in his thigh hollow by a god (Gen 32:22-31)

I would put that in the category of an ant on a railway track shaking his fist at the locomotive that is just about to squish him out of existence......does the locomotive even feel the bump? Seriously, all you are doing here is trying to tell God you don't approve of his rules....all duly noted...now what?

Since God is the one who has the right to determine who lives and who dies....if there was an illegitimate conception as the result of the adultery, the punishment is meted out to the mother who knew God's law and its stated penalty before she slept with a man who was not her husband. The death of any unborn child is on her head, not God's.

So what did the god do to the adulteresses after it terminated their pregnancies, and were they stoned to death as commanded in Leviticus 20:10?

Numbers 5:20-28 Wycliffe Bible
20 else if thou bowedest away from thine husband, and art defouled, and hast lain with another man, (but if thou hast turned away from thy husband, and art defiled, and hast lain with another man,)

21 thou shalt be subject to these cursings; the Lord give thee into cursing, and into ensample of all men in his people; the Lord make thine hip to wax rotten, and thy womb (to) swell, and be it broken; (then thou shalt be subject to these curses; yea, let the Lord make thee a curse, and an example to all among his people; and may the Lord make thy hip to grow rotten, and thy womb to swell, and let it be broken

22 (yea, let) these cursed waters enter into thy womb, and while thy womb swelleth, thine hip wax rotten. And the woman shall answer, Amen! amen!

23 And the priest shall write these curses in a little book, and he shall do away those curses with the bitterest waters (and then he shall wash them off into this most bitter water),

24 into which he gathered (those) curses, and he shall give to her the waters to drink. And when she hath drunk those waters, (into which he shall gather together these curses, and then he shall give her this water to drink. And when she hath drunk the water,)

25 the priest shall take (out) of her hand the sacrifice of jealousy (the priest shall take from her hand the offering for jealousy), and he shall raise it [up] before the Lord, and he shall put it on the altar;

26 so only that he take before an handful of that sacrifice that is offered, and burn it upon the altar, and so give (for to) drink to the woman the most bitter waters. (so only that first he take a handful of the offering that is offered, and burn it on the altar, and then afterward give the woman this most bitter water to drink.)

27 And when she hath drunk those waters, if she is defouled, and is guilty of adultery, for her husband is despised of her (for her husband was despised by her), the waters of cursing shall pass through her, and while her womb is swollen, her hip shall wax rotten, and the woman shall be into cursing and into ensample to all the people.

28 That if she is not defouled, she shall be harmless, and shall bring forth free children. (But if she is not defiled, she shall be without harm, and shall bring forth children.)

Now you are making me laugh.....what erroneous translations say has no bearing on the truth of the matter....this has clearly become a crusade for you.....I can only assume that God's rules are making you angry for some reason and you wish to find excuses for not believing that he is a just God. That of course, is entirely up to you......but please understand that God will not change for you or anyone else who wants to disobey his laws.

It does if you ignore everyone that I said to you....God is the one who "yokes" a couple together for life. If you disagree then fine.....that is your choice. God doesn't really care if you disagree or not. We actually qualify for citizenship in his new world to come...or we don't. That's it...he won't bend the rules for anyone.

And it's your choice if you believe that Jesus and what he said is irrelevant. "Gehenna" is not "hell"...there is no such place. Who told you there was?
If you are hung up on the "going to hell" thing....rest assured that the worst thing that God will ever do to someone is take them out of existence....he will cancel their subscription to life. That's fair enough, isn't it?

I feel like I am talking to a broken record .....the Bible does forbid polygamy for Christians, but God tolerated it in Israel for the reasons I mentioned. "Most people in civilized countries" have your attitude...they want to do what they want to do, and God can go and jump in the lake......trouble is he has a "lake" of his own that people will be thrown into.....nothing comes out of that place. But it is not a place of conscious existence....there is no suffering in that 'lake', if that makes you feel better.

"Christians" will answer to God for breaches of his law....regardless of what they call themselves.

In other words biblical morality, is just man-made and changes as society changes, given that the ten commandments etc did not apply to Abraham et al and their ancestors, nor to our aborigines who arrived here over 50,000 years before Adam's grandmother was a girl.
And it doesn't change the fact that Jesus said that ALL remarried divorcees will be tossed into the lake of fire with all the lying whoremongers unless they remain celibate and repent their adulterous marriages (Rev 21:8) which is presumably why Moses & Noah & Abraham etc never went to heaven (John 3:13).

Hockeycowboy · Jun 30, 2020

@fantome profane , the reason we say yes, is because it means nothing, if taken any other way. Do we believe miracles like that happened? Yes.

This law was given to the Israelites, while they were wandering those 40 years, so every night, they saw that pillar of fire by the sanctuary; and every morning, the smoke cloud. Not to mention, the manna! They had constant reminders of Jehovah's presence (yet they still were "a stiff-necked people"); it only stands to reason, that Jehovah would provide other reminders, especially with adjudication and enforcement of Law, the breaking of which might be hard to prove.

Take care, my cousin.

Mitty · Jun 30, 2020

Hockeycowboy said:
@fantome profane , the reason we say yes, is because it means nothing, if taken any other way. Do we believe miracles like that happened? Yes.

This law was given to the Israelites, while they were wandering those 40 years, so every night, they saw that pillar of fire by the sanctuary; and every morning, the smoke cloud. Not to mention, the manna! They had constant reminders of Jehovah's presence (yet they still were "a stiff-necked people"); it only stands to reason, that Jehovah would provide other reminders, especially with adjudication and enforcement of Law, the breaking of which might be hard to prove.

Take care, my cousin.

So why weren't those laws, including the ten commandments, given to Abraham or his ancestors?

Deeje · Jun 30, 2020

Mitty said:
I'm here to enlighten, and by definition only Christians have crusades and mark with the cross anyway.

LOL...the only people you are enlightening are the ones who already believe as you do....I think you are preaching to the choir.....no real accomplishment there...

BTW...no "Christians" were involved in the Crusades. You are confusing Roman Catholicism with Christianity....Jesus' instructions were to "love your enemies" (Matthew 5:43-45)....that is something Christendom has never been good at. You can't love them and kill them at the same time.....

Mitty said:
But what has a god got to do with the commandment in Numbers 5:20-28 to terminate the pregnancies of adulteresses?

I don't know that he ever did...that is your story not the Bible's. But you keep missing that for some reason.

And I've never even seen a god anyway, let alone had a face to face conversation with one like Abraham did with his god (Gen 18). Nor have I ever had a wrestling match with a god like Jacob did when he was given a squirrel grip and groped in his thigh hollow by a god (Gen 32:22-31)

LOL...and with your attitude, do you really expect a face to face conversation? Seriously?

God communicated with his worshippers through specifically chosen men (and women)......I doubt you will ever be among them.....and I doubt that you will care, so what makes you think God cares what any unbeliever thinks? He doesn't owe anyone anything.....not even an explanation.

Mitty said:
In other words biblical morality, is just man-made and changes as society changes, given that the ten commandments etc did not apply to Abraham et al and their ancestors, nor to our aborigines who arrived here over 50,000 years before Adam's grandmother was a girl.

"In other words"???? You are hilarious.....those are your words not mine....is fighting and knocking down strawmen like a sport for you or something?

Mitty said:
And it doesn't change the fact that Jesus said that ALL remarried divorcees will be tossed into the lake of fire with all the lying whoremongers unless they remain celibate and repent their adulterous marriages (Rev 21:8) which is presumably why Moses & Noah & Abraham etc never went to heaven (John 3:13).

Why do I need to change the fact that God can do whatever he likes and neither you or I can do a damned thing about it.....?

The reason why Moses, Noah and Abraham never went to heaven is because heaven was not the place where God ever intended us to live. He designed humans to live on earth.....heaven was never even mentioned until Jesus made a covenant with his apostles on the night before his death.....that was a covenant (a legally binding agreement) to take a relatively small group to heaven to rule with him. They would also take on the role of priests. (Revelation 20:6) This would mean that all of those who rule mankind will have lived as humans on earth...even Jesus. It makes them more compassionate and understanding of the human condition. The majority of mankind will live on earth, because God meant us to enjoy his creation.

If you are going to argue by using the Bible, at least you should understand what it teaches. A history of Christendom and her adopted doctrines wouldn't go astray either. You don't seem to understand that what happened to Judaism was going to happen to Christianity too.....they introduced the "traditions of men", substituted them for God's word.....and lost the plot. (Matthew 15:7-9) They lost God along with it.

Deeje · Jun 30, 2020

Mitty said:
So why weren't those laws, including the ten commandments, given to Abraham or his ancestors?

There was as yet no nation with whom God made a covenant, and he had not given them his written laws. Yet loyal worshippers of Jehovah have always existed, from Abel to Noah.....from Noah to Job...from Job to Abraham (in a Patriarchal system).....and from Abraham's descendants, Isaac and Jacob, would come the promised seed whom God mentioned in Genesis 3:15. He would deal with the serpent's offspring and deal the serpent himself a death blow......we are awaiting the time when that final hit takes place. In the meantime there is still a lot to do before God's original purpose for this earth and mankind is restored.

Mitty · Jun 30, 2020

Deeje said:
LOL...the only people you are enlightening are the ones who already believe as you do....I think you are preaching to the choir.....no real accomplishment there...

BTW...no "Christians" were involved in the Crusades. You are confusing Roman Catholicism with Christianity....Jesus' instructions were to "love your enemies" (Matthew 5:43-45)....that is something Christendom has never been good at. You can't love them and kill them at the same time.....

Doesn't change the fact that the word "crusade" only applies to Christians as defined by the Oxford English Dictionary - from L. cruciare: mark with cross.

I don't know that he ever did...that is your story not the Bible's. But you keep missing that for some reason.

That's because the biblical gods were created in the image and likeness of the biblical writers

LOL...and with your attitude, do you really expect a face to face conversation? Seriously?
God communicated with his worshippers through specifically chosen men (and women)......I doubt you will ever be among them.....and I doubt that you will care, so what makes you think God cares what any unbeliever thinks? He doesn't owe anyone anything.....not even an explanation.

Have you ever had a face to face conversation with a god like Abraham did {Gen 18), or had a wrestling match with one like Jacob did (Gen 32:22-31), or aren't you one of the chosen men & women either?

"In other words"???? You are hilarious.....those are your words not mine....is fighting and knocking down strawmen like a sport for you or something?

So why weren't the ten commandments etc given to Abraham's ancestors or to our aborigines who arrived here over 50,000 years before Adam's grandmother was a girl?

Why do I need to change the fact that God can do whatever he likes and neither you or I can do a damned thing about it.....?
The reason why Moses, Noah and Abraham never went to heaven is because heaven was not the place where God ever intended us to live. He designed humans to live on earth.....heaven was never even mentioned until Jesus made a covenant with his apostles on the night before his death.....that was a covenant (a legally binding agreement) to take a relatively small group to heaven to rule with him. They would also take on the role of priests. (Revelation 20:6) This would mean that all of those who rule mankind will have lived as humans on earth...even Jesus. It makes them more compassionate and understanding of the human condition. The majority of mankind will live on earth, because God meant us to enjoy his creation.

And do you have any actual evidence to support your claims?

If you are going to argue by using the Bible, at least you should understand what it teaches. A history of Christendom and her adopted doctrines wouldn't go astray either. You don't seem to understand that what happened to Judaism was going to happen to Christianity too.....they introduced the "traditions of men", substituted them for God's word.....and lost the plot. (Matthew 15:7-9) They lost God along with it.

And that's because the bible was written by men, for men about a small group of paternalistic men and their history & laws & customs & mythology, including the gods they created in their images and likenesses.

Mitty · Jun 30, 2020

Deeje said:
There was as yet no nation with whom God made a covenant, and he had not given them his written laws. Yet loyal worshippers of Jehovah have always existed, from Abel to Noah.....from Noah to Job...from Job to Abraham (in a Patriarchal system).....and from Abraham's descendants, Isaac and Jacob, would come the promised seed whom God mentioned in Genesis 3:15. He would deal with the serpent's offspring and deal the serpent himself a death blow......we are awaiting the time when that final hit takes place. In the meantime there is still a lot to do before God's original purpose for this earth and mankind is restored.

Alas none of that would even convince my cat.

But why wasn't it morally wrong for Cain(an) to kill his brother Abel, given that his god even protected him from retribution after he relocated to Nod and lived happily ever after with one or two Nod girls?

And why were most of Noah's family drowned, including his grandparents (Gen 5:27) and his widowed mother (Gen 5:31) and his aunts & uncles & cousins (Gen 6:26) and his brothers & sisters (Gen 5:30) and his hundreds of children & grandchildren born before and after Mrs Noah gave birth to triplets at aged 500 years old (Gen 5:32), given that that particular flood was only a local event of 15 cubits high and had no effect on our aborigines who arrived here over 50,000 years before Adam's grandmother was a girl?

Deeje · Jul 1, 2020

Mitty said:
Alas none of that would even convince my cat.

I think you have the mistaken notion that God is somehow upset by your (or anyone else's) rejection of him.....I hate to have to tell you this, but God considers all unbelievers as "dead" already. Walking around "dead" people....(Ephesians 2:1-7) Unless you consider that God is alive...he doesn't consider that you are either.....that's fair isn't it? You might not have to worry about your cat either....God doesn't hold their owners against them.

Mitty said:
But why wasn't it morally wrong for Cain(an) to kill his brother Abel, given that his god even protected him from retribution after he relocated to Nod and lived happily ever after with one or two Nod girls?

Of course it was morally wrong for Cain to kill his brother......but given that there were just two sons at that point in time (there may have been daughters as well, but few women at that time were named in the Bible. What was Noah's wife's name, or what were the names of his daughters-in-law?

Cain was allowed to live but he did not go unpunished.
Cain may have taken a wife from one of his sisters, since we are not told where he got his wife. There was no law regarding incest at that time. Marrying relatives continued at least up until the time of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob....who all married close relatives. Incest was only banned later, when Moses wrote the Law.

Mitty said:
And why were most of Noah's family drowned, including his grandparents (Gen 5:27) and his widowed mother (Gen 5:31) and his aunts & uncles & cousins (Gen 6:26) and his brothers & sisters (Gen 5:30)

Since only Noah and his immediate family were saved, his other family members apparently did not respond to his preaching....there was certainly room on board that very large ark, but no one took him seriously....see you can't depend on 'majority rules'....running with the mob is not always the wisest thing to do.

Mitty said:
and his hundreds of children & grandchildren born before and after Mrs Noah gave birth to triplets at aged 500 years old (Gen 5:32)

Triplets? where did you find triplets.....don't tell me let me guess...in the same Bibles where you found aborted babies....

She had three sons....it doesn't say triplets.

My Bible says that Noah and his wife were childless until Noah received notice of God's intentions to cleanse the world of the moral filth that had obviously infected everyone alive at that time. (Genesis 5:32) God found no other righteous people in the world. (Genesis 6:9) Just goes to show us how the bad behavior of others can affect the people around them. Its happened again.

Jesus used that situation to illustrate what the state of the world would be at his return (Matthew 24:37-39)....and here we are. Violence and immorality are again filling the earth. It is time for God to act.....

Mitty said:
given that that particular flood was only a local event of 15 cubits high and had no effect on our aborigines who arrived here over 50,000 years before Adam's grandmother was a girl?

I believe it was a global flood because the tallest mountains were covered to a depth of 15 cubits (approx 7.7 m). Water always finds its own level so that would be impossible unless the whole earth was flooded. Mind you, I do not believe that the mountains were as tall as they are now, before the flood.

I don't buy the 50,000 years either, sorry. Human efforts to calculate time have been unsuccessful in the past because carbon dating depends on conditions (radiation levels) remaining the same. The Bible indicates that God used water that was "above" earth's atmosphere to flood the earth, which would have meant a huge change in radiation levels, and dramatic climate change as well. (2 Peter 3:5-7) There is enough evidence for me in the Bible.....I don't need science to tell me who or what to believe.

You can believe whatever you wish....it makes no difference at all to me.

Mitty · Jul 1, 2020

Deeje said:
I think you have the mistaken notion that God is somehow upset by your (or anyone else's) rejection of him.....I hate to have to tell you this, but God considers all unbelievers as "dead" already. Walking around "dead" people....(Ephesians 2:1-7) Unless you consider that God is alive...he doesn't consider that you are either.....that's fair isn't it? You might not have to worry about your cat either....God doesn't hold their owners against them.

That's just imaginative words in a book.

Of course it was morally wrong for Cain to kill his brother......but given that there were just two sons at that point in time (there may have been daughters as well, but few women at that time were named in the Bible. What was Noah's wife's name, or what were the names of his daughters-in-law?

Cain was allowed to live but he did not go unpunished.
Cain may have taken a wife from one of his sisters, since we are not told where he got his wife. There was no law regarding incest at that time. Marrying relatives continued at least up until the time of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob....who all married close relatives. Incest was only banned later, when Moses wrote the Law.

So why did Cain(an)'s god protect him from retribution when he relocated to Nod and lived happily ever after with one of the Nod girls, and given that the ten commandments did not apply to him and he wasn't punished for killing Abel? What evidence do you have that Cain(an) married his sister, given that our aborigines arrived here over 50,000 years before Adam's grandmother was a girl?

Since only Noah and his immediate family were saved, his other family members apparently did not respond to his preaching....there was certainly room on board that very large ark, but no one took him seriously....see you can't depend on 'majority rules'....running with the mob is not always the wisest thing to do.

Or did Noah kill his grandparents and mother and his aunts & uncles and brothers & sisters and his other children & grandchildren to feed the 14 lions & 14 Bengal tigers & 14 Siberian tigers & 14 Tasmanian tigers & 14 sabre-tooth tigers & 14 Andrewsarchus & 14 T rexes etc onboard Noah's boat, given it wasn't morally wrong for Noah to kill them since the ten commandments etc didn't apply to him, nor to Noah's father when he killed a young man (Gen 5:23-24)?

Triplets? where did you find triplets.....don't tell me let me guess...in the same Bibles where you found aborted babies.... She had three sons....it doesn't say triplets.

Gen 5:32 clearly says that Mrs Noah gave birth to triplets when Noah was 500 "years" old. Or do you believe that women can have three separate pregnancies in one "year" or three pregnancies in a month, given that a Gen 5 "year" is obviously a lunar cycle of ~29 days and not a solar cycle of 365 days? Or did Noah have three wives who coincidently first gave birth at aged 500 "years" old?

My Bible says that Noah and his wife were childless until Noah received notice of God's intentions to cleanse the world of the moral filth that had obviously infected everyone alive at that time. (Genesis 5:32) God found no other righteous people in the world. (Genesis 6:9) Just goes to show us how the bad behavior of others can affect the people around them. Its happened again.

Where does the bible say that Mrs Noah was childless and first became pregnant with male triplets when she was 500 "years" old and that she only had sex once in her lifetime to celebrate her 500th birthday? Or did you just make that up?

But the "years" listed in Gen 5 were obviously more easily measured lunar cycles of ~29 days and not solar cycles of 365 days. Thus Adam and his genetically identical partner (also named Adam) first became pregnant at aged ~12 years old and not a ridiculous 130 "years" old {Gen 5:1-3), and Methusael was drowned at aged ~80 years old and not an absurd 969 "years" old (Gen 5:27), and Mrs Noah gave birth to triplets at aged ~40 years old and not a ridiculous 500 "years" old.
it ain't necessarily so - Bing video

Jesus used that situation to illustrate what the state of the world would be at his return (Matthew 24:37-39)....and here we are. Violence and immorality are again filling the earth. It is time for God to act.....

So why didn't Jesus return, given that his contemporaries expected his return in their lifetimes.

I believe it was a global flood because the tallest mountains were covered to a depth of 15 cubits (approx 7.7 m). Water always finds its own level so that would be impossible unless the whole earth was flooded. Mind you, I do not believe that the mountains were as tall as they are now, before the flood.

Wrong!!! The KJV and the Hebrew bible clearly say that the flood which drowned most of Noah's family was only 15 cubits high and drained away like every other similar flood, and that it did not affect a nearby olive tree growing outside the flooded area . Therefore the "mountains" or high hills in the flooded area were less than 15 cubits about the normal height of the unflooded river. And it clearly does not say that the "mountains" or high hills were covered by 15 cubits.

Genesis 7:20 King James Version
20 Fifteen cubits upward did the waters prevail;
and the mountains were covered.

Bereshis 7:20 Orthodox Jewish Bible
20 Fifteen cubits upward did the waters rise;
and the harim were covered.

Or don't you believe what the bible actually says and prefer to believe those dishonest false versions which say that the commandment in Numbers 5:20-28 was just about stomach aches and sore thighs of adulteresses because adulteresses never ever become pregnant, and because male adulterers never have stomach aches and sore thighs?

I don't buy the 50,000 years either, sorry. Human efforts to calculate time have been unsuccessful in the past because carbon dating depends on conditions (radiation levels) remaining the same. The Bible indicates that God used water that was "above" earth's atmosphere to flood the earth, which would have meant a huge change in radiation levels, and dramatic climate change as well. (2 Peter 3:5-7) There is enough evidence for me in the Bible.....I don't need science to tell me who or what to believe.

Nonsense. That's just an imaginative fantasy story in a book, given the unequivocal fact that the universe is obviously billions of years old because there are about two trillion visible galaxies and the speed of light is ~300,000 km/second. And there is absolutely no evidence whatsoever that once upon a time the ocean level magically rose at the rate of 150 mm/minute for 40 days and covered Mt Everest from an extra 4.5 billion cubic kilometres of water which magically disappeared within the next year, given that there is about 1.3 billion cubic kilometres of water on Earth.

And do you have any actual evidence that kangaroos and sloths are native to the middle east as hypothesized from that biblical fantasy story, and given that there are 7 distinct bio-geographical regions resulting from biological evolution over millions of years.

You can believe whatever you wish....it makes no difference at all to me.

That's fine, but I stopped believing in Santa and fairies and magic over 65 years ago.

ecco · Jul 1, 2020

Deeje said:
You can prove nothing to someone who is closed minded.

Pot. Kettle.

Deeje · Jul 1, 2020

My goodness, your replies are becoming more and more bizarre....

Mitty said:
That's just imaginative words in a book.

You can believe that if you wish....so? Your beliefs are your beliefs...why do you find mine so offensive?

So why did Cain(an)'s god protect him from retribution when he relocated to Nod and lived happily ever after with one of the Nod girls, and given that the ten commandments did not apply to him and he wasn't punished for killing Abel? What evidence do you have that Cain(an) married his sister, given that our aborigines arrived here over 50,000 years before Adam's grandmother was a girl?

Adam didn’t have a grandmother (that is getting old BTW)....he had a Creator. And in Genesis, Adam and his wife initially produced two sons, no daughters are mentioned until Adams history mentions them in passing. Cain killed his righteous brother, and in order to populate the earth as they were originally commanded to do, God allowed Cain to live, but he was by no means able to live an easy life....
Genesis 4:11-14....
“And now you are cursed in banishment from the ground that has opened its mouth to receive your brother’s blood from your hand. 12 When you cultivate the ground, it will not give you back its produce. You will become a wanderer and a fugitive in the earth.” 13 At this Cain said to Jehovah: “The punishment for my error is too great to bear. 14 Today you are driving me from the land, and I will be hidden from your face; and I will become a wanderer and a fugitive on the earth, and anyone who finds me will certainly kill me.”

Cain thought it was all a bit much.....was his punishment worse than death? I think he thought so....

Or did Noah kill his grandparents and mother and his aunts & uncles and brothers & sisters and his other children & grandchildren to feed the 14 lions & 14 Bengal tigers & 14 Siberian tigers & 14 Tasmanian tigers & 14 sabre-tooth tigers & 14 Andrewsarchus & 14 T rexes etc onboard Noah's boat, given it wasn't morally wrong for Noah to kill them since the ten commandments etc didn't apply to him, nor to Noah's father when he killed a young man (Gen 5:23-24)?

Like I said.....bizarre. Who can take anything you say seriously? Your arguments appear to be unraveling.....more strawmen being slaughtered and you seem to be dancing on their graves.....

Gen 5:32 clearly says that Mrs Noah gave birth to triplets when Noah was 500 "years" old. Or do you believe that women can have three separate pregnancies in one "year" or each month given that a Gen 5 "year" is obviously a lunar cycle of ~29 days and not a solar cycle of 365 days?

It says nothing about triplets....it says she gave birth to three sons. Where do you get the idea that she had them in the space of a year? Noah was 500 years old when he became a father, after that he was told about the coming deluge....he was 600 years old when it happened. (Genesis 7:6) That makes his sons about 100 years old. So how long did it take Noah and his family to build that huge box? It wasn't a boat...it was a container, not designed for navigation, but simply to float. Ship builders have used the ratios (H:L:W) of the ark to build their vessels because of its stability. Wave tank experiments prove that this vessel was extremely stable even in the roughest of waters.

If you understand that God created humankind never to die, (as long as they remained obedient to his commands) then physical imperfection (due to sin) was only beginning to take its toll on Adam and his family outside of the garden. That is why his early descendants lived very long lives. Up until the flood of Noah’s day longevity into hundreds of years was in evidence, but after the water canopy (the waters above the earth) was removed when God used it to flood the earth, I see no reason why the radiation levels would not have increased, which would have exposed humans, and the earth itself, to its ageing affects. Lifespans were thereafter reduced exponentially so that the human lifespan became a mere “three score and ten” (just 70 years). But as humans deteriorated physically, morally and spiritually....it was enough.

Where does the bible say that Mrs Noah was childless and first became pregnant with triplets when she was 500 "years" old and that she only had sex once in her lifetime to celebrate their 500th birthdays? Or did you just make that up?

Read through the genealogies of Noah’s descendants and see how old they were when they had children. (Genesis ch 5) Did it ever occur to you that humans may not have had the ability to have children when “young”, due to delayed reproductive maturity? I know as a parent, that if I’d had many years to acquire the wisdom and experience that I have now, compared to what I had in my twenties, my parenting skills would have been vastly different.
People back then, did not age like they do now....they were not “old” at 500. They were still able to become parents. We can only surmise....isn't that what you are doing?

So why didn't Jesus return, given that his contemporaries expected his return in their lifetimes.

Because he knew that they would die and rest in their graves until his return. When he came back to raise them up, it would seem as if they closed their eyes only a moment ago. He wasn't going to expect them to hang around in heaven for thousands of years, twiddling their thumbs.

It is obvious that God and his spiritual creation exist in a realm where time is not governed by the rotation of our small planet....the Apostle Peter told us that ‘a thousand years to us is just like a day to God’. (2 Peter 3:8) That then makes sense because God told the humans that they would die in the “day” that they ate the fruit.....so, it was true....no human has lived a full “day” from God’s standpoint. The oldest human was Methuselah who died at 969 years of age.

The KJV and the Hebrew clearly say that the flood which drowned most of Noah's family was only 15 cubits high and that it did not affect a nearby olive tree growing outside the flooded area and that it drained away like every other similar flood. And that the "mountains" or high hills in the flooded area were therefore less than 15 cubits about the normal height of the unflooded river. And it clearly does not say that the "mountains" or high hills were covered by 15 cubits.

The KJV?? Is that what it says?
“Fifteen cubits upward did the waters prevail; and the mountains were covered.”
Perhaps you need to broaden your Bible knowledge....? Or at least highlight the whole verse....

Gotta love Archaic English......do you speak it?

Genesis 7:20 King James Version
20 Fifteen cubits upward did the waters prevail;
and the mountains were covered.

See the part you failed to highlight? That was 15 cubits above the mountains.

Did they all get it wrong then....?

ESV...
“The waters prevailed above the mountains, covering them fifteen cubits deep.”

NASB...
“The water prevailed fifteen cubits higher, and the mountains were covered.”

NIV...
“The waters rose and covered the mountains to a depth of more than fifteen cubits.”

I think your credibility is next to zero about now.....

Nonsense. That's just an imaginative fantasy story in a book, given the unequivocal fact that the universe is obviously billions of years old and that there is absolutely no evidence whatsoever that once upon a time the ocean level magically rose at the rate of 150 mm/minute for 40 days and covered Mt Everest from an extra 4.5 billion cubic kilometres of water which magically disappeared within the next year, given that there is about 1.3 billion cubic kilometres of water on Earth.

I agree that the universe is billions of years old and so is the earth. Genesis does not argue with that....only YEC's argue with that. I am not a YEC.

Now let me ask you why global warming is such a threat?
The polar ice caps are melting and guess what will happen if all that stored water melts?

Where might that vast amount of water have gone when the flood subsided?
Are the poles magnetic? Is water subject to magnetic forces? What influences the tides on planet earth? Is it not the moon that moves our oceans? Where better than to store that water as ice at the magnetic poles?
Do any of you ever think outside the box? Who created the box?

And do you have any actual evidence that kangaroos and sloths are native to the middle east as hypothesized from that biblical fantasy story, and given that there are 7 distinct bio-geographical regions resulting from biological evolution over millions of years.

Since the flood was God’s doing, and the animal “kinds” that he preserved were of his choosing and he brought them to Noah, (Noah did not have to go out and capture them) we don’t need the guesswork of human scientists to tell us what is possible and what is not for the Creator of all things.

You can believe whatever you wish, but I see so many flaws in your arguments and so little research backing up a very false sense of confidence, so I would suggest you do some more research before you misquote any more scripture to those who know what the Bible actually teaches, just a bit better than you do.
You have no doubt heard of the expression...”a little knowledge is a dangerous thing”....nowhere is that truer than in arguments over scripture with people who haven’t got a clue what they are talking about.

Please go and do your homework.

Mitty · Jul 1, 2020

Deeje said:
My goodness, your replies are becoming more and more bizarre....

You can believe that if you wish....so? Your beliefs are your beliefs...why do you find mine so offensive?

Adam didn’t have a grandmother (that is getting old BTW)....he had a Creator.

That's because the biblical creation stories are just fantasy stories in a book, given the fact that our aborigines arrived here over 50,000 years ago.

And in Genesis, Adam and his wife initially produced two sons, no daughters are mentioned until Adams history mentions them in passing. Cain killed his righteous brother, and in order to populate the earth as they were originally commanded to do, God allowed Cain to live, but he was by no means able to live an easy life....
Genesis 4:11-14....
“And now you are cursed in banishment from the ground that has opened its mouth to receive your brother’s blood from your hand. 12 When you cultivate the ground, it will not give you back its produce. You will become a wanderer and a fugitive in the earth.” 13 At this Cain said to Jehovah: “The punishment for my error is too great to bear. 14 Today you are driving me from the land, and I will be hidden from your face; and I will become a wanderer and a fugitive on the earth, and anyone who finds me will certainly kill me.”

Cain thought it was all a bit much.....was his punishment worse than death? I think he thought so....

Is that why Cainan lived happily ever after with one of the Nod girls who was 10 years older than him because his god blessed him and protected him from retribution?

Like I said.....bizarre. Who can take anything you say seriously? Your arguments appear to be unraveling.....more strawmen being slaughtered and you seem to be dancing on their graves.....

So why were most of Noah's family drowned, given that the bible says that they were the only people who drowned in that particular flood which was only 15 cubits high? And how did Noah feed all the animals on board his boat, including the 14 lions & 14 Bengal tigers & 14 Siberian tigers & 14 Tasmanian tigers & 14 sabre-tooth tigers & 14 Andrewsarchus & 14 T rexes etc? Or was that just another imaginative fantasy story?

It says nothing about triplets....it says she gave birth to three sons. Where do you get the idea that she had them in the space of a year? Noah was 500 years old when he became a father, (Genesis 7:6) That makes his sons about 100 years old.

In other words Mrs Noah gave birth to three sons within one "year" (Gen 5:32).

So how long did it take Noah and his family to build that huge box? It wasn't a boat...it was a container, not designed for navigation, but simply to float. Ship builders have used the ratios (H:L:W) of the ark to build their vessels because of its stability. Wave tank experiments prove that this vessel was extremely stable even in the roughest of waters.

Do you think that it could withstand the ocean level rising at the rate of 216 metres per day for 40 days? Or is that just another biblical fantasy story?

If you understand that God created humankind never to die, (as long as they remained obedient to his commands) then physical imperfection (due to sin) was only beginning to take its toll on Adam and his family outside of the garden. That is why his early descendants lived very long lives. Up until the flood of Noah’s day longevity into hundreds of years was in evidence, but after the water canopy (the waters above the earth) was removed when God used it to flood the earth, I see no reason why the radiation levels would not have increased, which would have exposed humans, and the earth itself, to its ageing affects. Lifespans were thereafter reduced exponentially so that the human lifespan became a mere “three score and ten” (just 70 years). But as humans deteriorated physically, morally and spiritually....it was enough.

Nonsense. So why did Mrs Noah take 500 "years" to first become pregnant, and was that because she only had sex once in her lifetime to celebrate her 500th birthday. Or is that just another biblical fantasy?

Read through the genealogies of Noah’s descendants and see how old they were when they had children. (Genesis ch 5) Did it ever occur to you that humans may not have had the ability to have children when “young”, due to delayed reproductive maturity? I know as a parent, that if I’d had many years to acquire the wisdom and experience that I have now, compared to what I had in my twenties, my parenting skills would have been vastly different.
People back then, did not age like they do now....they were not “old” at 500. They were still able to become parents. We can only surmise....isn't that what you are doing?

That's because the "years" listed in Gen 5 were obviously more easily observed lunar cycles of ~29 days and not solar cycles of 365 days, which is why a solar year is divided into ~12 lunar years which in turn is divided into lunar quarters of ~7 days, and why the number 7 is important in Jewish culture.

Because he knew that they would die and rest in their graves until his return. When he came back to raise them up, it would seem as if they closed their eyes only a moment ago. He wasn't going to expect them to hang around in heaven for thousands of years, twiddling their thumbs.

It is obvious that God and his spiritual creation exist in a realm where time is not governed by the rotation of our small planet....the Apostle Peter told us that ‘a thousand years to us is just like a day to God’. (2 Peter 3:8) That then makes sense because God told the humans that they would die in the “day” that they ate the fruit.....so, it was true....no human has lived a full “day” from God’s standpoint. The oldest human was Methuselah who died at 969 years of age.

Nonsense.

The KJV?? Is that what it says?
“Fifteen cubits upward did the waters prevail; and the mountains were covered.”
Perhaps you need to broaden your Bible knowledge....? Or at least highlight the whole verse....
Gotta love Archaic English......do you speak it?

In other words the KJV and the Jewish bible both say that the flood height was only 15 cubits, and that the highest hills were therefore less than 15 cubits higher than the normal river level when not in flood.

See the part you failed to highlight? That was 15 cubits above the mountains.

Did they all get it wrong then....?

ESV...
“The waters prevailed above the mountains, covering them fifteen cubits deep.”

NASB...
“The water prevailed fifteen cubits higher, and the mountains were covered.”

NIV...
“The waters rose and covered the mountains to a depth of more than fifteen cubits.”

I think your credibility is next to zero about now.....

The ESV and NIV are just dishonest fake versions given that the KJV and the Jewish bible both clearly say that the flood which drowned most of Noah's family and their goats and sheep was only 15 cubits high and drained away like every other similar flood.

I agree that the universe is billions of years old and so is the earth. Genesis does not argue with that....only YEC's argue with that. I am not a YEC.

And humans evolved from a common ancestor with chimpanzees thousands of years ago

Now let me ask you why global warming is such a threat?
The polar ice caps are melting and guess what will happen if all that stored water melts?

Where might that vast amount of water have gone when the flood subsided?
Are the poles magnetic? Is water subject to magnetic forces? What influences the tides on planet earth? Is it not the moon that moves our oceans? Where better than to store that water as ice at the magnetic poles?
Do any of you ever think outside the box? Who created the box?

One thing is certain is that if all the polar ice melts it won't cover Mt Everest or even Mt Ararat, given that there is about 1.3 billion cubic kilometres of water on Earth.

Since the flood was God’s doing, and the animal “kinds” that he preserved were of his choosing and he brought them to Noah, (Noah did not have to go out and capture them) we don’t need the guesswork of human scientists to tell us what is possible and what is not for the Creator of all things.

Do you have any actual evidence to support your claim that kangaroos and sloths etc are therefore native to the middle east? Or is that just an imaginative fantasy too?

You can believe whatever you wish, but I see so many flaws in your arguments and so little research backing up a very false sense of confidence, so I would suggest you do some more research before you misquote any more scripture to those who know what the Bible actually teaches, just a bit better than you do.

You have no doubt heard of the expression...”a little knowledge is a dangerous thing”....nowhere is that truer than in arguments over scripture with people who haven’t got a clue what they are talking about. Please go and do your homework.

The story about how most of Noah's family and their goats and sheep were drowned was probably based on an earlier story such as the Gilgamesh epic. But either way the bible clearly says that the flood was only 15 cubits high and drained away like any other similar flood before and since, and had no effect on a nearby olive tree growing outside the flooded area. And the bible says that the flooded area stretched to the circle of the horizon to which the dome-shaped tent (heavens) is attached as described in Isaiah 40:22.

Deeje · Jul 1, 2020

Good bye...you are just here for an argument....I have said all I need to......argue with someone who cares what you believe....

Mitty · Jul 1, 2020

This is a forum, not a pulpit. I'm here to enlighten, you are just here to preach, and I stopped believing in Santa and fairies and magic over 65 years ago and long before I retired as a research scientist and an orchardist.

And it still doesn't change the fact that the KJV and the Jewish bible both clearly say that the flood which drowned most of Noah's family was only 15 cubits high and that Numbers 5:20-28 commands the abortions of adulteresses.

SkepticThinker · Jul 11, 2020

Deeje said:
It was part of God's Law and it had his sanction, remembering the times and the customs of the time period.
By today's standards it sounds a bit weird, but in that culture it was the norm. You can't put today's standards on yesterdays behaviors. Times change, people's standards change, but God's standards don't. Adultery is still a serious offense in God's eyes. He just has a different way of dealing with it now.

You've just explained how God's standards changed, while asserting that God's standards didn't change.

Deeje · Jul 12, 2020

SkepticThinker said:
You've just explained how God's standards changed, while asserting that God's standards didn't change.

No I didn't.....I said..."Times change, people's standards change, but God's standards don't. Adultery is still a serious offense in God's eyes. He just has a different way of dealing with it now."

The nation of Israel whilst living on their own soil, had God's laws which they themselves enforced, but once they were dominated by Gentile nations they were forced to abide by the laws of that nation. The Romans in Jesus' day set the rules for execution and by Roman standards, Jesus was found not guilty. The Jews had no right to execute anyone so they trumped up charges of sedition and threatened Pilate's political career, finding an excuse to give him a Roman execution.

God's laws however did not change.....those guilty of adultery will still face their Maker and be held accountable....eventually. You can believe that or not....

Mitty · Jul 12, 2020

Deeje said:
No I didn't.....I said..."Times change, people's standards change, but God's standards don't. Adultery is still a serious offense in God's eyes. He just has a different way of dealing with it now."

So why does that god change it's mind and "has a different way of dealing with it now"? Or is that because biblical morality is just man-made, including the ten commandments etc since they didn't apply to Abraham et al and their ancestors?

And how do you know that it's a male god anyway, and not one of the goddesses which also discussed creating a male person in the image and likeness of the male creator god and creating a female person in the image and likeness of a goddess (Gen 1:26-27)?

God's laws however did not change.....those guilty of adultery will still face their Maker and be held accountable....eventually. You can believe that or not....

Click to expand...

And will ALL the remarried divorcees be tossed into the lake of fire because of their continual adultery as warned by Jesus (Mark 10:11-12 Matt 5:27-30)? Or is Jesus and what he said irrelevant?

But either way, why wasn't it morally wrong for Abraham to have a sexual relationship with his sister Sarah and commit adultery with Hagar?

And why wasn't it morally wrong for Abraham to kill his son as a blood sacrifice, or for Cain(an) to kill his brother Abel, or for Noah's father to kill a young man (Gen 4)?

And why wasn't it morally wrong for Lot to sexually assault his daughters after he tried to pimp them and mocked their future husbands (Gen 19)?

And is that why Moses & Noah & Abraham etc never went to heaven (John 3:13)?

Or is that because biblical morality, including the ten commandments, is just man-made and changes as society changes?

Mitty · Jul 12, 2020

Hockeycowboy said:
The Scripture isn’t about abortion.....
The life of the adulteress was “terminated”. The adulterer’s, too.

With such a heavy penalty, I doubt there were very many.

So where does Numbers 5:20-28 say that the male adulterer must drink a "bitter water" abortifacient and say "so be it, so be it" too, or did you just make that up?

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