All Have Sinned

Trailblazer · Jun 26, 2020

danieldemol said:
Making mistakes won't deprive us of salvation if we try to avoid them because God is compassionate.

Making mistakes is not a sin, but even if there is such a thing as sin, according to Jesus, there is only one sin that is unforgivable.

Matthew 12:31-32 “So I tell you, every sin and blasphemy can be forgiven—except blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, which will never be forgiven. Anyone who speaks against the Son of Man can be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven, either in this world or in the world to come.”

In those verses Jesus said it is unforgivable to hate the Holy Spirit (light of God) and one will not be forgiven in this life or in the afterlife.

Jesus and the other Messengers of God were like lamps that brought the Holy Spirit; they brought the light of God to humanity because they reflected God’s attributes. It is forgivable to hate the lamp, because one might not recognize that the lamp is from God because they might not see the divine perfections of God in the lamp.

I can only surmise blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is unforgivable. It is a Baha’i belief that heaven and hell are states of the soul, not geographical locations. Heaven is nearness to God and hell is distance from God. It is impossible to come near to God if one is repelled by the light of God because God does not force His love upon anyone. God only draws those near to Him those who reach out for His mercy. If one hates God they will not reach out for God’s mercy and they will thus be distant from God; in such a state they will make their own hell. Maybe that correlates with the unforgivable sin.

Shadow Wolf · Jun 26, 2020

InChrist said:
I consider the biblical scriptures on an entirely different level than the writings of Muhammad or Joseph Smith. I think one who sincerely does reading and research seeking truth would come to the same conclusion, but again you are free to disregard the Bible and have your opinion.

You're a Christian. It would be very bizarre indeed if you put the Bible on the same level as the Necronomicon.

Trailblazer · Jun 26, 2020

InChrist said:
the scriptures which claim to be God the Creator’s word on the subject says we are all sinful.

Can you quote Jesus saying that we are all sinful, or that we are born in sin, of was that just Paul who said that?

InChrist · Jun 26, 2020

Trailblazer said:
Add that to the fact that it was Paul who said we are all sinners, not Jesus.
Moreover, Jesus knew nothing of original sin, that is a Church doctrine.

Actually, Jesus spoke quite a bit about sin. Even telling the crowd about to stone the woman caught in adultery that whoever was without sin to throw the first stone, knowing that NO ONE was without sin.

I don’t necessarily accept the Catholic Church concept of original sin, but I think the reality the scriptures express is that everyone often chooses to sin.

Jesus' Sayings on Sin

InChrist · Jun 26, 2020

Deeje said:
Nice post @InChrist.

To understand all those verses, you must first understand what “sin” is, Biblically speaking....
The common Hebrew term translated “sin” is chat·taʼthʹ; in Greek the usual word is ha·mar·tiʹa. In both languages the verb forms (Heb., cha·taʼʹ; Gr., ha·mar·taʹno) mean “miss,” in the sense of missing or not reaching a goal, way, mark, or right point. In archery e.g. it means to “miss the target”.
So, understanding that “sin” is simply missing an optimum standard (perfection) helps us to realise why it applies to all of us. None of us are perfect....but that was not always the case.

In essence, for those of us who identify as Christians, or even those who worship the God of Abraham, it means a failure to display the standard of perfection with which God created our first parents.

“Defection” (as opposed to “perfection”) in the garden of Eden, was a deviation from that which God originally purposed for his human creation. “Sin” then manifested itself in various ways, according to scripture.....spiritually, physically, mentally and emotionally. Humans now “missed the mark” of their original perfection in all these areas, to a greater or lesser degree.

The Bible actually identifies two kinds of “sin”.....the one that affects all humankind from birth, which results in physical defects, mental and physical illness, ageing and death. None of these were in the original models, as there was no natural cause of sickness, disability or death in the original paradise.....it would not have been paradise if any of those things were present. It would also explain why we have no natural acceptance of these things, and why they are seen as unwelcome and unnatural to the majority of us. We have no control over this sin (imperfection). It’s part of the way things are for the present. It is not our fault.

The other kind of “sin” is a product of our natural inclination towards wrongdoing and making wrong decisions, based on faulty thinking. This involves our free will. This is the sin we choose to commit deliberately, even when we know better. This is the one for which we bear responsibility.

Thankfully, the Bible gives us hope of a way out of this ‘less than optimal’ existence, where the abuse of free will (which got us into this mess in the first place) will no longer dictate the quality of our lives. We are all sick of those who abuse their free will, ruining the lives of others, who have their free will trampled on.

A disobedient human (Adam) got us into this predicament, and an obedient human (Jesus) has paid for us to get back what we lost.

Who doesn’t, in their heart, want to live in paradise, with no sickness, ageing or death robbing us of our much loved family and friends?......with no wars, crime or violence taking away peace and security from the world? There is a reason why most of us long for such a life......sin took it away. God made it possible to get it back.

We are not without hope.....

Thanks for your thoughts and further insight into the meaning and impact of sin.

Thankfully, there is hope for today and eternity through Jesus Christ, a wonderful Savior!

Trailblazer · Jun 26, 2020

InChrist said:
Actually, Jesus spoke quite a bit about sin. Even telling the crowd about to stone the woman caught in adultery that whoever was without sin to throw the first stone, knowing that NO ONE was without sin.

I don’t necessarily accept the Catholic Church concept of original sin, but I think the reality the scriptures express is that everyone often chooses to sin.

Jesus' Sayings on Sin

Sure, Jesus talked a lot about sin but I do not know where Jesus talked about original sin or where Jesus said that He died to atone for our sins. That is according to Paul and Christian doctrine.

Depending upon how you define sin, we all sin at times but that does not define us as "sinners."

Hockeycowboy · Jun 27, 2020

InChrist said:
Actually, Jesus spoke quite a bit about sin. Even telling the crowd about to stone the woman caught in adultery that whoever was without sin to throw the first stone, knowing that NO ONE was without sin.

Excellent reasoning!

Nice use of Biblical Scripture as evidence, since it’s a biblical issue.

I didn’t think of that Scripture, myself....thanks!

InChrist · Jun 27, 2020

Trailblazer said:
Sure, Jesus talked a lot about sin but I do not know where Jesus talked about original sin or where Jesus said that He died to atone for our sins. That is according to Paul and Christian doctrine.

Depending upon how you define sin, we all sin at times but that does not define us as "sinners."

The entire Bible points to Jesus as the Savior... for He will save His people from their sin. Matthew 1:21
If people were not sinners He would not have come to be the Savior.

Someone who paints is a painter, one who lies is a liar, a person who smokes is a smoker, and one who sins is a sinner. I don’t think it’s that difficult to understand and everyone likely sins in word, thought or action just about everyday.

Jesus said...

”Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for if you do not believe that I am He, you will die in your sins.” Matthew 8:24

Trailblazer · Jun 27, 2020

InChrist said:
The entire Bible points to Jesus as the Savior... for He will save His people from their sin. Matthew 1:21
If people were not sinners He would not have come to be the Savior.

The Bible is about more than Jesus as Savior, but that is the only thing Christians focus on because they are obsessed with original sin and that Jesus needed to die to atone for it. That is a Christian doctrine, not anything Jesus taught, so everything Jesus taught is subordinated to one thing, sin and being saved from it.

Since Baha’is do not believe in original sin, there was no penalty to pay. Therein lies the difference between Christianity and the Baha’i Faith beliefs. Since we all have a higher noble spiritual nature and a lower selfish material nature (sinful nature) Jesus saved us from our lower material nature by giving us His teachings that, if followed, free us from the chains of bondage to our physical nature and the material world. The cross sacrifice was a symbol of detachment and self-denial, the example we are to follow. The remission of sins is the remission of our sinful nature that intervenes between us and God:

The following quote explains how it was the Word of God as well as the cross sacrifice that freed us from the chains of bondage. Christ gave us His teachings (profusion of His bounties) and then later died on the cross (suffered the greatest martyrdom) so we could be free of sin and attain everlasting life.

“…those who turned toward the Word of God and received the profusion of His bounties—were saved from this attachment and sin, obtained everlasting life, were delivered from the chains of bondage, and attained to the world of liberty. They were freed from the vices of the human world, and were blessed by the virtues of the Kingdom. This is the meaning of the words of Christ, “I gave My blood for the life of the world” 6 —that is to say, I have chosen all these troubles, these sufferings, calamities, and even the greatest martyrdom, to attain this object, the remission of sins” Some Answered Questions, p. 125

InChrist said:
Someone who paints is a painter, one who lies is a liar, a person who smokes is a smoker, and one who sins is a sinner. I don’t think it’s that difficult to understand and everyone likely sins in word, thought or action just about everyday.

Someone who paints is more than a painter, one who lies is more than a liar, a person who smokes is more than a smoker, and one who sins is more than a sinner. What I am trying to say is that sin does not define who we are as human beings. Christians are obsessed with sin because they need sin in order to justify Jesus having to die on the cross to save them from sin. But that is not how Jesus said we would be saved. Jesus said we must believe in Him to be saved. The cross sacrifice was His demonstration of His love for us.

John 3:16: “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.”

1 John 5:13 “I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life.”

Hockeycowboy · Jun 27, 2020

Trailblazer said:
.....original sin and that Jesus needed to die to atone for it. That is a Christian doctrine, not anything Jesus taught

Please read Matthew 20:28

ChristineM · Jun 27, 2020

InChrist said:
Well, if it’s irrelevant to you, you didn’t need to respond. I simply put the message from the scriptures out for those who may feel it relevant enough to discuss.
The scriptures indicate there is a Creator who has communicated with humanity concerning the subject of sin and the remedy. Since it’s also indicated this had eternal ramifications, I consider this subject very important, but if you don’t... okay.

On a public thread you stated all have sinned. Yes i did need to respond to your insult

Tambourine · Jun 27, 2020

Don't worry.

*waves hand*

Everyone of you has their sins forgiven.
Now go forth, and sin no more!

Trailblazer · Jun 27, 2020

Hockeycowboy said:
Please read Matthew 20:28

Matthew 20:28 Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.

It is also a Baha’i belief that Jesus offered Himself up as a ransom for many.

“That which thou hast heard concerning Abraham, the Friend of the All-Merciful, is the truth, and no doubt is there about it. The Voice of God commanded Him to offer up Ishmael as a sacrifice, so that His steadfastness in the Faith of God and His detachment from all else but Him may be demonstrated unto men. The purpose of God, moreover, was to sacrifice him as a ransom for the sins and iniquities of all the peoples of the earth. This same honor, Jesus, the Son of Mary, besought the one true God, exalted be His name and glory, to confer upon Him. For the same reason was Ḥusayn offered up as a sacrifice by Muḥammad, the Apostle of God.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 75-76

The question is what was the payment for? Jesus did not say that He gave His life as a ransom for any original sin committed by Adam and Eve. Baha’u’llah wrote that Jesus besought God to confer upon Him the honor of sacrificing Himself as a ransom for the sins and iniquities of all the peoples of the earth.

Jainarayan · Jun 27, 2020

The premise in the o.p. assumes that the entire world is subject to the Christian concepts of God and scriptures. It is not. At least 1.3 billion of us do not believe that, and definitely more. To that end, no I have not sinned because I reject the whole idea of sin as understood by Christians.

“The greatest sin is to call yourself a sinner. You are a child of God. Though gold be covered with mud for centuries, it remains gold. So the pure ‘gold’ of the soul can be covered over with the mud of delusion for aeons, but in its true nature it remains forever undefiled.” —Paramhansa Yogananda

InChrist · Jun 27, 2020

ChristineM said:
On a public thread you stated all have sinned. Yes i did need to respond to your insult

Not my words or a concept I would have come up with. I simply repeated what the scriptures, which claim to be God’s Word, have stated concerning that all have sinned.

But from my perspective this does appear to match reality.

InChrist · Jun 27, 2020

Jainarayan said:
The premise in the o.p. assumes that the entire world is subject to the Christian concepts of God and scriptures. It is not. At least 1.3 billion of us do not believe that, and definitely more. To that end, no I have not sinned because I reject the whole idea of sin as understood by Christians.

“The greatest sin is to call yourself a sinner. You are a child of God. Though gold be covered with mud for centuries, it remains gold. So the pure ‘gold’ of the soul can be covered over with the mud of delusion for aeons, but in its true nature it remains forever undefiled.” —Paramhansa Yogananda

Your idea, or that of Paramhansa Yogananda is fine, if it is true. On the other hand, if it’s false and there is a Creator God whose revelation concerning the sinful state of humanity and our need for a Savior is true, then making sure would be of utmost importance. Just my thought on the subject.

Twilight Hue · Jun 27, 2020

RabbiO said:
This would have been more appropriate in the Christianity DIR.

Yeah I agree with that.

The only people who recognize any type of authority from the Bible are Christians and maybe some others who have relations with Christians.

The whole thread doesn't really mean anything. Sin is just a made-up concept and the Bible is just a compliation of retold and redacted ancient mythologies that centers around a small cult of people.

ChristineM · Jun 28, 2020

InChrist said:
Not my words or a concept I would have come up with. I simply repeated what the scriptures, which claim to be God’s Word, have stated concerning that all have sinned.

But from my perspective this does appear to match reality.

You are responsible for what you copy and publish are you not?

Correct, not reality for a good proportion of the population

InChrist · Jun 28, 2020

Not only it is revealed in the scriptures, which claim to be the words of God the Creator... “that all have sinned”, but Jesus also stated that, “one who commits sin is a slave to sin” ( John 8:34).

I wonder why people prefer to remain in ignorance, rather than listen to their Creator’s information given for our benefit and freedom.

InChrist · Jun 28, 2020

ChristineM said:
You are responsible for what you copy and publish are you not?

Correct, not reality for a good proportion of the population

Yes, if I relay a message or information I am responsible for doing so, but I’m not responsible for creating the message.

If God the Creator says all have sinned then it would be true for all the population, yet it’s true many may choose to live in ignorance and deny reality.

All Have Sinned

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