Was the Apostle Paul a Good Man?

1213 said:

Jesus said:

Jesus asked him, "Why do you call me good? No one is good, except one-God.
Luke 18:19

After that it is really difficult to me to call any human good. But, I think Paul has good and right teachings, but as Peter says:

as also in all of his letters, speaking in them of these things. In those are some things hard to be understood, which the ignorant and unsettled twist, as they also do to the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.
2 Pet. 3:16

Paul’s teachings are twisted for wrong purposes and to have wrong meanings, which can lead many to astray.



Please show where it is said?

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For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry. Hebrews 10:37
The Lord is at hand. Philippians 4:5

Please explain what do you mean?

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Paul preached faith.
A man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ. Galatians 2:16

Jesus said he came not to destroy the law but fulfill it. Jesus told people to sin no more. Why would he do this if only faith was required?

I think Paul is misunderstood in this. I think he has correct idea, if it is understood in right way. Jesus came on earth to declare forgiveness. So, it can be said he came because of our sins. And because of what he did, he was murdered. So, in a way, he was killed because of our sins.

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Ok but again it's saying the death of Jesus took care of our sins. Whereas Jesus tells folks not to sin. Why would Jesus do that if his death was going to take care of it?

So it's faith vs law. Jesus during his ministry continued to observe Jewish law. Paul did not see the law as important.

Please explain what do you mean?

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That's from the linked site but

9:7 And the men which journeyed with him stood speechless, hearing a voice, but seeing no man.
Those with hear a voice.

22:9 And they that were with me saw indeed the light, and were afraid; but they heard not the voice of him that spake to me.
They heard no voice

26:14 And when we were all fallen to the earth, I heard a voice speaking unto me, and saying in the Hebrew tongue, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.
Here they all fell to the ground.

Perhaps Paul's memory isn't so good but you'd expect him to have a pretty good recollection of such a significant event in his life.

I disagree with that. Gospels show how Jews (their leaders) wanted that Jesus is killed and they arranged it so that Jesus would be killed. So, even though it was Romans who did the job, there were Jews that can be seen guilty for that. Are they not guilty, if things went as the Gospels tell? Obviously, this doesn’t mean that every Jew, even in our time, are guilty for that.

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For ye, brethren, became followers of the churches of God which in Judea are in Christ Jesus: for ye also have suffered like things of your own countrymen, even as they have of the Jews: Who both killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they please not God, and are contrary to all men: 1Thessalonians 214-15

Perhaps if Paul had not claimed the Jews were persecuting the Christians. Very divisional between the Jews who followed Jesus and the Christians who followed Paul. It seems Paul was creating his own religious sect among the gentiles.

Nakosis said:

And still gets kicked out and beaten by the Israelites afterward. Acts 22 has Paul trying to defend his Jewishness. Paul had to be rescued by the Romans from the followers of Jesus.

Jesus himself said he came to save the. Israelites. Something which Paul ignores.

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No doubt... as did James, Peter and John were beaten. Peter was suppose to die. Stephen was killed by Saul. Doesn't translate into the Apostles where against Paul or that Paul was a false Aposatle

KenS said:

No doubt... as did James, Peter and John were beaten. Peter was suppose to die. Stephen was killed by Saul. Doesn't translate into the Apostles where against Paul or that Paul was a false Aposatle

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Didn't say Paul was a false Apostle though it's only Paul claiming himself to be one. He never actually learned anything from Jesus directly.

Nakosis said:

Didn't say Paul was a false Apostle though it's only Paul claiming himself to be one. He never actually learned anything from Jesus directly.

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I was talking in light of the thread that we had been talking about. Didn't know yours was a different vain.

Apologies.

But I believe he did learn from Jesus:

1 Cor 11:
23 For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, that the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread:
24 And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me.
25 After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, this cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me.
26 For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord's death till he come.

Maybe when he visited the third Heaven?

KenS said:

I was talking in light of the thread that we had been talking about. Didn't know yours was a different vain.

Apologies.

But I believe he did learn from Jesus:

1 Cor 11:
23 For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, that the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread:
24 And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me.
25 After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, this cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me.
26 For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord's death till he come.

Maybe when he visited the third Heaven?

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I would assume this was after he had read the gospels. Though Paul had started his ministry pre-gospel I assume they were written somewhere in the midst of it.

Nakosis said:

I would assume this was after he had read the gospels. Though Paul had started his ministry pre-gospel I assume they were written somewhere in the midst of it.

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That's a supposition. However, they didn't have internet back then and letter being passed around was a great effort.

Then you had to criss cross paths.

Galatians - Apostle Paul A.D. 48 A.D. - 50 A.D. 48
1 Thessalonians - Apostle Paul A.D. 50 A.D. - 52 A.D. 51
2 Thessalonians - Apostle Paul A.D. 50 A.D. - 52 A.D. 51
Mark - A.D. 45 According -John Wenham
Mark - according John A. T. Robinson A.D. 60
Mark - according to -A. Harnack A.D. 48-55
1 Corinthians Apostle Paul A.D. 55 A.D.- 55 A.D.

So I don't think so.

New Testament Books - Dating

KenS said:

That's a supposition. However, they didn't have internet back then and letter being passed around was a great effort.

Then you had to criss cross paths.

Galatians - Apostle Paul A.D. 48 A.D. - 50 A.D. 48
1 Thessalonians - Apostle Paul A.D. 50 A.D. - 52 A.D. 51
2 Thessalonians - Apostle Paul A.D. 50 A.D. - 52 A.D. 51
Mark - A.D. 45 According -John Wenham
Mark - according John A. T. Robinson A.D. 60
Mark - according to -A. Harnack A.D. 48-55
1 Corinthians Apostle Paul A.D. 55 A.D.- 55 A.D.

So I don't think so.

New Testament Books - Dating

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Mark, Luke and Paul all hung out. Paul was not even born when Jesus died. Nothing is stopping you from assuming some metaphysical connection though. You'll understand why I don't find the idea compelling myself I hope.

Nakosis said:

Mark, Luke and Paul all hung out. Paul was not even born when Jesus died. Nothing is stopping you from assuming some metaphysical connection though. You'll understand why I don't find the idea compelling myself I hope.

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Not really....

Gal 1:12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.

I guess it boils down to "I believe what he said" or "I don't believe what he said".

KenS said:

Not really....

Gal 1:12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.

I guess it boils down to "I believe what he said" or "I don't believe what he said".

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Ok, what's an example of wisdom from Paul? Apart from theology, what did Paul say/teach that has helped you to be a better person?

Nakosis said:

Nothing Paul says is credible.

1. Paul says that Jesus will return within his (Paul’s) lifetime. MAJOR Discrediting Event
2. Paul teaches the opposite of what Matthew, Mark and Luke report Jesus taught. Major Discrediting Event
3. Paul originates the “Jesus died for our sins” story based on a false premise
4. Paul tells three different stories about seeing Jesus.
5. Paul makes up doctrine to suit the occasion and justifies it with reference to Old Testament prophecy.
6. Paul started the “blame the Jews” movement.

Paul Is Wrong About So Much, Why Do You Believe ANYTHING He Says?

Mark 13:22 For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.

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Paul is a complex person.

Was he an authoritative source? no, not in the way he is made out to be by "Christianity" later on.

It makes no sense that if Jesus saved everyone from their sins by dying (yada yada) that people should be following Paul, it's illogical.
Even given the status of the apostles (who have become obscure and who we have no writings from).

Paul himself though was a Gnostic, the very first one perhaps. Half of what he says should be taken mystically. He was basically commenting on the Torah, oral history of Jesus (no "gospels" existed yet) and commentary on Talmud.

He had a lot of negative traits though, despite the ecstasy of some of his mystical statements. He had women problems, was a sexist and had some serious insecurities at times.

OtherSheep said:

Yep. Wasn't James the leader of the poor Ebionites? James was apparently written to refute what Paul was teaching, as were the letters to the churches in Revelation.

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Yes this is correct

Nakosis said:

Ok, what's an example of wisdom from Paul? Apart from theology, what did Paul say/teach that has helped you to be a better person?

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WOW! that's a hard question... where does one start...

Romans 12 And so, dear brothers and sisters, I plead with you to give your bodies to God because of all he has done for you. Let them be a living and holy sacrifice—the kind he will find acceptable. This is truly the way to worship him. 2 Don’t copy the behavior and customs of this world, but let God transform you into a new person by changing the way you think. Then you will learn to know God’s will for you, which is good and pleasing and perfect.

Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

This was one big one. To be able to not condemn oneself for past mistakes was liberating and it helped me to transform my thinking. The past can be like an anchor on a ship preventing you to sail the sees.

There are lot of scriptures written by Paul that helps one to be free.

I like it when Jesus said "Now you are clean through my word" - Peter changed his thinking from fear and condemnation for his denial to a powerful preacher.

VoidoftheSun said:

Paul is a complex person.

Was he an authoritative source? no, not in the way he is made out to be by "Christianity" later on.

It makes no sense that if Jesus saved everyone from their sins by dying (yada yada) that people should be following Paul, it's illogical.
Even given the status of the apostles (who have become obscure and who we have no writings from).

Paul himself though was a Gnostic, the very first one perhaps. Half of what he says should be taken mystically. He was basically commenting on the Torah, oral history of Jesus (no "gospels" existed yet) and commentary on Talmud.

He had a lot of negative traits though, despite the ecstasy of some of his mystical statements. He had women problems, was a sexist and had some serious insecurities at times.

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I don't think so.

Nakosis said:

Nothing Paul says is credible.

1. Paul says that Jesus will return within his (Paul’s) lifetime. MAJOR Discrediting Event
2. Paul teaches the opposite of what Matthew, Mark and Luke report Jesus taught. Major Discrediting Event
3. Paul originates the “Jesus died for our sins” story based on a false premise
4. Paul tells three different stories about seeing Jesus.
5. Paul makes up doctrine to suit the occasion and justifies it with reference to Old Testament prophecy.
6. Paul started the “blame the Jews” movement.

Paul Is Wrong About So Much, Why Do You Believe ANYTHING He Says?

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I believe the writings of apostle Paul
Because his writings makes sense and inspired by God.
Further, he was made a minister of the gospel assigned to preach the gospel to the Gentiles
God performed miracles through Paul as signs for the people that he was indeed sent.



Romans 15:15-16 New International Version (NIV)
Yet I have written you quite boldly on some points to remind you of them again, because of the grace God gave me to be a minister of Christ Jesus to the Gentiles. He gave me the priestly duty of proclaiming the gospel of God, so that the Gentiles might become an offering acceptable to God, sanctified by the Holy Spirit.



2 Corinthians 3:6 New International Version (NIV)
He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant—not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.



2 Corinthians 12:10-13 New International Version (NIV)
That is why, for Christ’s sake, I delight in weaknesses, in insults, in hardships, in persecutions, in difficulties. For when I am weak, then I am strong.

I have made a fool of myself, but you drove me to it. I ought to have been commended by you, for I am not in the least inferior to the “super-apostles,” even though I am nothing. I persevered in demonstrating among you the marks of a true apostle, including signs, wonders and miracles. How were you inferior to the other churches, except that I was never a burden to you? Forgive me this wrong!



And I believe, when Judgement Day comes
The Lord Jesus Christ will reward Paul for his work
He was beheaded, giving up his life for the gospel of Christ

2 Timothy 4:6-8 New International Version (NIV)
For I am already being poured out like a drink offering, and the time for my departure is near. I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith. Now there is in store for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day—and not only to me, but also to all who have longed for his appearing.

Nakosis said:

Paul Is Wrong About So Much, Why Do You Believe ANYTHING He Says?

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Was the Apostle Paul a Good Man?

1: Paul was not one of the Twelve Apostles
2: Paul persecuted some of the early disciples of Jesus
3: on a mission to "arrest them and bring them back to Jerusalem" the ascended Jesus appeared to him in a great light.
4: He was struck blind, but after three days his sight was restored by Ananias of Damascus
5: Paul began to preach that Jesus of Nazareth is the Jewish Messiah and the Son of God

*: Nowadays I see men claiming to be "man of God" having sex with children and doing other non-Christlike things

a) Seems to me Apostle Paul was not a Good Man, before the Great Light struck him
b) A Great Master can transform you instantaneously into a Good Man, but in my experience this happens almost never
(Bad habits die hard. And takes many years of sadhana to transform yourself. When in the Master's Auro it's easier, but....)
c) Seeing the punishments in Koran and Bible, my guess is that we are more civilized now than in year ZERO
d) Main Christian goal is evangelizing it seems to me, so it's more about changing others than changing oneself
e) Many Christians/Churches belittle Buddhism telling "Self Effort" won't help you ... only Jesus Grace makes you a Good Man
f) Nowadays I see many Christians proselytizing, but not all are Good Man. Why should it have been different in year ZERO?

IMHO (from above points):
*: Apostle Paul used to be "not a Good Man" + evolution goes slow, so I would be surprised if he instantly became Good Man
*: For me not very important if Paul was "Good Man" ... I just follow "Good Teaching" ... not "Good Man" ... Try find "My Way"

Note: I spend 10 years in an Ashram and I have not seen 1 person become Good Man overnight. Takes many years Sadhana
Note: Many times other people declare someone Holy(Saint), but how well do we know someone (see priests/Imams etc)

Nakosis said:

For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry. Hebrews 10:37

The Lord is at hand. Philippians 4:5

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Paul doesn’t say in those that “Jesus will return within his (Paul’s) lifetime”.

Nakosis said:

Paul preached faith.

A man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ. Galatians 2:16

Jesus said he came not to destroy the law but fulfill it. Jesus told people to sin no more. Why would he do this if only faith was required?

Click to expand...

Paul’s point is, obeying the law doesn’t make anyone righteous (justified). Which I think is true and also confirmed by the rest of the Bible. But, if person is righteous, his righteousness affects to his works so that they are also righteous. This means, actions don’t define you, you define your actions. And if you are righteous, also your works will be. I think that is what Jesus means also when he speaks about how one can recognize good tree from bad tree.

Even so, every good tree produces good fruit; but the corrupt tree produces evil fruit. A good tree can't produce evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree produce good fruit. Every tree that doesn't grow good fruit is cut down, and thrown into the fire. Therefore, by their fruits you will know them.
Matt. 7:17-20

Unrighteous person can pretend to be righteous by doing something that looks good, but it doesn’t make him righteous. People should do good and right because they understand it is good and right, not because they try to earn salvation, or eternal life. Those who are righteous, have the right understanding, which leads to righteous actions. They do right, because they understand it is good and therefore they want to be loyal (faithful) to God. And for them is the eternal life promised.

These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.
Mat. 25:46

For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Romans 6:23

Paul is not against the Law, he tells it is good. Bu people should not understand that it doesn’t work so that you can try to earn life by doing what is right. Person who does right only because he ties to earn life by doing so, is not really righteous.

But we know that the law is good, if a man uses it lawfully,
1 Tim. 1:8

So, the Law is good and it is correct about what is wrong and should not be done. But, if you try to obey it with wrong motives, it is not good and useful for you.

Nakosis said:

That's from the linked site but

9:7 And the men which journeyed with him stood speechless, hearing a voice, but seeing no man.

Those with hear a voice.

22:9 And they that were with me saw indeed the light, and were afraid; but they heard not the voice of him that spake to me.

They heard no voice

26:14 And when we were all fallen to the earth, I heard a voice speaking unto me, and saying in the Hebrew tongue, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.

Here they all fell to the ground.

Perhaps Paul's memory isn't so good but you'd expect him to have a pretty good recollection of such a significant event in his life.

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They is no contradictory. They heard voice, but not the voice of him who spoke. This means, they didn’t recognize what and who was speaking, but they heard some voice. And, it is possible that they stood speechless before they fell, or rose up and stood speechless after they had fell. I think by those it can’t be said that Paul didn’t remember, he just told the story little differently and shortly.

Nakosis said:

…

Perhaps if Paul had not claimed the Jews were persecuting the Christians….

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But, if it was true and they persecuted, should he not tell the truth? I think it would still not give the right for Christians to be evil.

1213 said:

Paul doesn’t say in those that “Jesus will return within his (Paul’s) lifetime”.



Paul’s point is, obeying the law doesn’t make anyone righteous (justified). Which I think is true and also confirmed by the rest of the Bible. But, if person is righteous, his righteousness affects to his works so that they are also righteous. This means, actions don’t define you, you define your actions. And if you are righteous, also your works will be. I think that is what Jesus means also when he speaks about how one can recognize good tree from bad tree.

Even so, every good tree produces good fruit; but the corrupt tree produces evil fruit. A good tree can't produce evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree produce good fruit. Every tree that doesn't grow good fruit is cut down, and thrown into the fire. Therefore, by their fruits you will know them.
Matt. 7:17-20

Unrighteous person can pretend to be righteous by doing something that looks good, but it doesn’t make him righteous. People should do good and right because they understand it is good and right, not because they try to earn salvation, or eternal life. Those who are righteous, have the right understanding, which leads to righteous actions. They do right, because they understand it is good and therefore they want to be loyal (faithful) to God. And for them is the eternal life promised.

These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.
Mat. 25:46

For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Romans 6:23

Paul is not against the Law, he tells it is good. Bu people should not understand that it doesn’t work so that you can try to earn life by doing what is right. Person who does right only because he ties to earn life by doing so, is not really righteous.

But we know that the law is good, if a man uses it lawfully,
1 Tim. 1:8

So, the Law is good and it is correct about what is wrong and should not be done. But, if you try to obey it with wrong motives, it is not good and useful for you.



They is no contradictory. They heard voice, but not the voice of him who spoke. This means, they didn’t recognize what and who was speaking, but they heard some voice. And, it is possible that they stood speechless before they fell, or rose up and stood speechless after they had fell. I think by those it can’t be said that Paul didn’t remember, he just told the story little differently and shortly.



But, if it was true and they persecuted, should he not tell the truth? I think it would still not give the right for Christians to be evil.

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Ok, so what sparked this is my own issues with the teaching of Paul. Jesus, I really have nothing to disagree with. Paul is what keeps me from considering Christianity as a good religion. I'd be like the Jewish followers of Jesus, well I wouldn't beat the crap out of Paul but I certainly wouldn't invite him in.

I suppose I find it odd that I find Jesus intriguing but Paul a turn-off.

Nakosis said:

Nothing Paul says is credible.

1. Paul says that Jesus will return within his (Paul’s) lifetime. MAJOR Discrediting Event
2. Paul teaches the opposite of what Matthew, Mark and Luke report Jesus taught. Major Discrediting Event
3. Paul originates the “Jesus died for our sins” story based on a false premise
4. Paul tells three different stories about seeing Jesus.
5. Paul makes up doctrine to suit the occasion and justifies it with reference to Old Testament prophecy.
6. Paul started the “blame the Jews” movement.

Paul Is Wrong About So Much, Why Do You Believe ANYTHING He Says?

Mark 13:22 For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.

Click to expand...

Paul probably made some theological errors or made it unnecessarily difficult to understand but he was not wrong about Christian (and his) way of living that Jesus taught (also in gospels). That's why it seems he was a good man.

stvdv said:

A Great Master can transform you instantaneously into a Good Man, but in my experience this happens almost never
(Bad habits die hard. And takes many years of sadhana to transform yourself. When in the Master's Auro it's easier, but....)

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That's true. After the event and first unsuccessful evangelization in Damascus Paul retreated for three years in Arabia. Then he went to Jerusalem and he got into a fight again. He was sent to Tarsus. He spent there five years working as a tent maker. Later he started to become an authority... His transformation also took time.

MJFlores said:

I

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your pictures are very creative