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The Trinity: Was Athanasius Scripturally Right?

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
Were the watchtowers on the city walls of Jerusalem symbols of Artemis? You are really grasping at straws now. Watchtowers were common in Bible times....it was a city's main defense, relying on the vigilance of the watchmen to warn of approaching danger. No security cameras in those days ya know.

It is clear to me that you are nosing around in a dirty trough to glean your misinformation....just remember that opposers did that to Jesus too. What is it worth? Are "ex's" always the best source of truth?
If you are so convinced that JW's do not teach the truth, then why are you going to these lengths to prove us wrong? Are we forcing our religion on you in some way?
If you have already made up your mind, do yourself a favor and write us off....we are obviously NOT what you are looking for. That's OK.



Since the Bible never uses the word "cross" for the instrument used to put Christ to death, and the symbol itself has very grubby origins, we will not use something that celebrated the male sex organ as a fitting symbol of Christ's death.

Ankh.png


Why was the Egyptian ankh cross a "symbol of life"? Because it represented intercourse. The loop at the top was the female organ, the cross at the bottom was the male organ. Its is not something to connect with Christ's death especially when the "stauros" is not given a configuration in the Bible. Since we are told NOT to make images of anything to use as part of our worship, we refrain from idolizing anything.

Not to mention the bizarre concept of wearing a replica of the instrument used to put someone you love to death. o_O If Christ had been hung, would 'Christians' be wearing a little gallows around their necks perhaps with a small figure of Jesus hanging from the rope? Think about that for a moment.

ocjjc8t6yxx01.jpg




Wedding rings, which are common in many cultures are not part of our worship...they symbolize marriage, which is something sanctified by God. There is no rule regarding them...some choose not to wear them. Its a choice.

A logo is not a religious symbol. Corporations use them. The Watchtower is a journal whose logo is representative of the magazine's role in our worship in this time of the end. It is a herald of the signs of the times.
The WTS is a Bible Society and a printery.
I used to go to church although not a Christian. I was a paid musician in a very well-to-do church in a large city. And I would be part of the service. I would wonder, why was Jesus hanging on the cross? No one ever discussed these things. There were church buffets, great music, but no real explanations about Christian living and concepts. Nothing about the wonderful things God has in store for faithful ones until I studied with Jehovah's Witnesses.
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
Job 27: 3 sounds like an idiom to me. Like the "kingdom of God is within you". Is there a kingdom really in you, no.
How very observant because there is No kingdom (No government ) in a person.
Please notice to whom Jesus is speaking, to who he is addressing at Luke 17:20-21 but the hate-filled Pharisees.
So, it would Not be logical that the kingdom of God was 'within ' those corrupted religious leaders.
After Jesus concluded what he said to his enemy Pharisees then in the next verse Jesus addresses his disciples - see Luke 17:22.
So, Jesus as king designate of God's heavenly kingdom, was simply within the reach of the Pharisees, within their midst, among them.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
How very observant because there is No kingdom (No government ) in a person.
Please notice to whom Jesus is speaking, to who he is addressing at Luke 17:20-21 but the hate-filled Pharisees.
So, it would Not be logical that the kingdom of God was 'within ' those corrupted religious leaders.
After Jesus concluded what he said to his enemy Pharisees then in the next verse Jesus addresses his disciples - see Luke 17:22.
So, Jesus as king designate of God's heavenly kingdom, was simply within the reach of the Pharisees, within their midst, among them.
That makes sense, just as Jesus said he was the vine and the Father is the cultivator. In other words, if the branches stick with Jesus, they will be fine.
 

SLPCCC

Active Member
Were the watchtowers on the city walls of Jerusalem symbols of Artemis? You are really grasping at straws now. Watchtowers were common in Bible times....it was a city's main defense, relying on the vigilance of the watchmen to warn of approaching danger. No security cameras in those days ya know.

It is clear to me that you are nosing around in a dirty trough to glean your misinformation....just remember that opposers did that to Jesus too. What is it worth? Are "ex's" always the best source of truth?
If you are so convinced that JW's do not teach the truth, then why are you going to these lengths to prove us wrong? Are we forcing our religion on you in some way?
If you have already made up your mind, do yourself a favor and write us off....we are obviously NOT what you are looking for. That's OK.



Since the Bible never uses the word "cross" for the instrument used to put Christ to death, and the symbol itself has very grubby origins, we will not use something that celebrated the male sex organ as a fitting symbol of Christ's death.

Ankh.png


Why was the Egyptian ankh cross a "symbol of life"? Because it represented intercourse. The loop at the top was the female organ, the cross at the bottom was the male organ. Its is not something to connect with Christ's death especially when the "stauros" is not given a configuration in the Bible. Since we are told NOT to make images of anything to use as part of our worship, we refrain from idolizing anything.

Not to mention the bizarre concept of wearing a replica of the instrument used to put someone you love to death. o_O If Christ had been hung, would 'Christians' be wearing a little gallows around their necks perhaps with a small figure of Jesus hanging from the rope? Think about that for a moment.

ocjjc8t6yxx01.jpg




Wedding rings, which are common in many cultures are not part of our worship...they symbolize marriage, which is something sanctified by God. There is no rule regarding them...some choose not to wear them. Its a choice.

A logo is not a religious symbol. Corporations use them. The Watchtower is a journal whose logo is representative of the magazine's role in our worship in this time of the end. It is a herald of the signs of the times.
The WTS is a Bible Society and a printery.

I'm not debating idols or the cross. I don't put my faith in them only in God's word. You are the one who started with posting pictures of idols. If your religion claims to have God's guidance while teaching that the Trinity is false then they should be willing to receive opposing arguments and not be afraid of being exposed to anything. If they are being dishonest and not properly using the scriptures then I see how they should be afraid because the Holy Spirit will expose them. It's not me; I'm just doing research and checking why I should believe your religious' teaching.

You are claiming the Trinity has to be false because your religious leaders say so. Well, like the Bereans of the first century I'm checking the scriptures and your religious articles and comparing them with the research I find to see if what they say is true. If I see lies and dishonesty, I will post them for all to see. If I see good arguments against the Trinity I will post that too. Don't take it personally and get upset like I'm attacking your religion. You should check to see if what is being put up true. When was the last time you did that? That's what true Christians do. Take the example of the Bereans.


Now if the Bereans found fault, don't you think they would have exposed Paul? Be reasonable.
 
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SLPCCC

Active Member
@SLPCCC -
Since this is primarily a thread about the trinity, you say you haven't decided yet about the trinity, do I have this right about your thoughts? I was looking over some information about Athanasius and wonder how you understand the trinity now. Do you believe that God is a compendium of three persons? How do you see it or not see it?

I'm trying not to take sides so that I can have an open mind. I'm posting what I find. Some here have already decided, so they don't have an open mind. Their mind is closed whether or not the Trinity is true. I'm looking at the scriptures and I see that some have changed the bible to support their theology. In fact, they haven't fully quoted some of their sources in their favor. What do you think about that?
 
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SLPCCC

Active Member
It is clear to me that you are nosing around in a dirty trough to glean your misinformation....just remember that opposers did that to Jesus too. What is it worth? Are "ex's" always the best source of truth?
If you are so convinced that JW's do not teach the truth, then why are you going to these lengths to prove us wrong? Are we forcing our religion on you in some way?
If you have already made up your mind, do yourself a favor and write us off....we are obviously NOT what you are looking for. That's OK.

You sound very angry. As a Christian, I defend the bible with love that's all I'm doing. I never said that the JW's do not teach the truth. You send me to read your articles on JW.org and I'm reading and checking through research to see if what they say is true. You said that your religion is true and being guided by "the Faithful and Discreet Slave". I'm checking to see if that's true too. After all, if they are from God, then what they say about the Trinity must be true. Correct? What do you expect for me to do? Go in your religion blindly without question and believe what they say about the Trinity??? Only cults expect that.

What do you mean by "Are "ex's" always the best source of truth"?
 
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YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
I'm trying not to take sides so that I can have an open mind. I'm posting what I find. Some here have already decided so they don't have an open mind. Their mind is closed whether or not the Trinity is true. I'm looking at the scriptures and I see that some have changed the bible to support their theology. In fact, they haven't fully quoted some of their sources in their favor. What do you think about that?
As I've seen, an extended quote often backs up the position as stated. But that is not the subject at hand. Why is it you have not decided about the trinity? Forgive me for saying this but I wonder why you can't stuck to the subject. I've told you why I don't believe there are three co-equal persons forming up one God, each and all without beginning, I've given scriptures for the most part. So may I ask you to explain why you do or don't believe that God is a trinity of three co-equal persons? Let's start there, if possible.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
You sound very angry. As a Christian, I defend the bible with love that's all I'm doing. I never said that the JW's do not teach the truth. You send me to read your articles on JW.org and I'm reading and checking through research to see if what they say is true. You said that your religion is true and being guided by "the Faithful and Discreet Slave". I'm checking to see if that's true. After all, if they are from God, then what they say about the Trinity must be true. Correct? What do you expect for me to do? Go in your religion blindly without question and believe what they say about the Trinity??? Only cults expect that.

What do you mean by "Are "ex's" always the best source of truth"?
So again, what do you believe about the trinity?
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
I'm trying not to take sides so that I can have an open mind. I'm posting what I find. Some here have already decided so they don't have an open mind. Their mind is closed whether or not the Trinity is true. I'm looking at the scriptures and I see that some have changed the bible to support their theology. In fact, they haven't fully quoted some of their sources in their favor. What do you think about that?
What would convince you that the trinity is or is not true? Assuming you are not relying on or depending on visions or something like that. Have you prayed for God to help you decide?
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
I'm pointing out that the Holy Spirit is a person because Arius and some others say it is like electricity.

I believe the Holy Spirit is a person because He has personal attributes. Some of those are the same as the ones the Father and Son have.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
I believe the Holy Spirit is a person because He has personal attributes. Some of those are the same as the ones the Father and Son have.
God can use any force he likes, including flood as he did in Noah's time.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
I believe God is in three persons and that He is not three persons. I have the Holy Spirit writing for me.
Do you imagine these three persons that you say God is in were always existing without beginning, as three persons?
 

SLPCCC

Active Member
What would convince you that the trinity is or is not true? Assuming you are not relying on or depending on visions or something like that. Have you prayed for God to help you decide?

You haven't answered my question.

To answer your question, I haven't got to the Holy Spirit. I've been busy looking at JW articles.
 

SLPCCC

Active Member
What would convince you that the trinity is or is not true? Assuming you are not relying on or depending on visions or something like that. Have you prayed for God to help you decide?

What would convince me would be research and biblical evidence. I'm looking for historical articles and scriptural proof. Ironically, I found proof for the Trinity when reading the Trinity book from the Jehovah's witnesses. When they quote from sources to prove their argument, they only quote the parts to support their theology. If you look up the full quote it supports the Trinity.

Here's an example,

They quote,
  • "Yale University professor E. Washburn Hopkins affirmed: "To Jesus and Paul the doctrine of the trinity was apparently unknown; . . . they say nothing about it."-Origin and Evolution of Religion." (ti p.6)
The actual quote,
  • "The beginning of the doctrine of the Trinity appears already in John (c.100 AD.") To Jesus and Paul the doctrine of the trinity was apparently unknown; at any rate they say nothing about it."

What do you think about this? You say nothing about this!

As I pray for the Holy Spirit's guidance using the JW bible and others, The Holy Spirit showed me that the JW bible has been changed from the original to support their theology. Do you follow the original Greek bible scriptures or the WTS? If there was a contradiction between the bible and the Watchtower publication which would you follow?
 
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SLPCCC

Active Member
I believe the Holy Spirit is a person because He has personal attributes. Some of those are the same as the ones the Father and Son have.

I agree,

The Personality of the Holy Spirit is determined because "he" does things that only a person can do. The Holy Spirit:
  • speaks Acts 13:2
  • has an "Ego" - I Acts 10:19-20
  • thinks Acts 15:28
  • shows emotions such as love Romans 15:30
  • has intellect and teaches Hebrews 9:8, John 14:26, 1 Corinthians 2:13, Nehemiah 9:20
  • has a will 1 Corinthians 12:11
 

SLPCCC

Active Member
I believe God is in three persons and that He is not three persons. I have the Holy Spirit writing for me.

I see that in this scripture,

  • Matthew 28:19 "Go therefore and make disciples of people of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy spirit,"
"Name" is not plural with an "s" it's singular.
 

SLPCCC

Active Member
Cognitive dissonance


Cognitive dissonance is good to keep in mind when learning new things that may conflict with current beliefs.

  • "In the field of psychology, cognitive dissonance occurs when a person holds two or more contradictory beliefs, ideas, or values; or participates in an action that goes against one of these three, and experiences psychological stress because of that. According to this theory, when two actions or ideas are not psychologically consistent with each other, people do all in their power to change them until they become consistent.[1] The discomfort is triggered by the person's belief clashing with new information perceived, wherein they try to find a way to resolve the contradiction to reduce their discomfort.[1][2]"
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
What would convince me would be research and biblical evidence. I'm looking for historical articles and scriptural proof. Ironically, I found proof for the Trinity when reading the Trinity book from the Jehovah's witnesses. When they quote from sources to prove their argument, they only quote the parts to support their theology. If you look up the full quote it supports the Trinity.

Here's an example,

They quote,
  • "Yale University professor E. Washburn Hopkins affirmed: "To Jesus and Paul the doctrine of the trinity was apparently unknown; . . . they say nothing about it."-Origin and Evolution of Religion." (ti p.6)
The actual quote,
  • "The beginning of the doctrine of the Trinity appears already in John (c.100 AD.") To Jesus and Paul the doctrine of the trinity was apparently unknown; at any rate they say nothing about it."

What do you think about this? You say nothing about this!

As I pray for the Holy Spirit's guidance using the JW bible and others, The Holy Spirit showed me that the JW bible has been changed from the original to support their theology. Do you follow the original Greek bible scriptures or the WTS? If there was a contradiction between the bible and the Watchtower publication which would you follow?
So either way, you are still unconvinced that God is a trinity of three persons each equal to the others, each and all three God, all three persons always existing without beginning?
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
I see that in this scripture,

  • Matthew 28:19 "Go therefore and make disciples of people of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy spirit,"
"Name" is not plural with an "s" it's singular.

By saying its "Name" which means you are claiming it's one person? Singular? Is that your contention?
 
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