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Pants on Fire

Windwalker

Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Power Stone said:
I'm just trying to learn about it. If there wasn't any witnesses then I can except that too
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Some people believe the miracle stories in the bible are literally, factually, and historical true exactly as written. Other people see those as stories intended to convey the specialness of the person they are about, in order to inspire the imaginations of the readers.

Claims of "eyewitnesses" are part of that story magic. "As hundreds of lumberjacks ended the work after a long day, they watched with dismay as giant Paul Bunyan also tired from the days work, dragged his giant axe behind him on his way home, creating the mighty Mississippi river where it had carved deep into the earth."

Witnesses add to the story, even though they themselves are also fictional.
 
Thief

Thief

Rogue Theologian
Power Stone said:
Why don't people believe that Jesus performed miracles? Are all the witnesses lying?
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hmmmm

I seem to recall a brief warning by the Carpenter
that we not believe in such things

it seems He was inclined for the sake of the audience at hand
people unable to hear the meaning of the parables
and with no miracle.....no believing could be dealt

for those who have not ears that hear......a display of power

and now that we are greatly removed from His life time......
we have the parables

to understand them is the only miracle you need
 
`mud

`mud

Just old
Premium Member
All the `majic` was there way before Jesus' tricks,
remember, Saul wrote most of those `miracles` coming from ole Matt & John.
 
`mud

`mud

Just old
Premium Member
" And the angel answered and said unto the women, Fear not ye: for I know that ye seek Jesus, which was crucified."
From a witness that was at one of these events.
A good witness that one !
I'm still confused !
 
Thief

Thief

Rogue Theologian
columbus said:
Then I'm confused.

But when I asked who you were referring to you say Jesus.
o_O
Tom
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yep......quite common
but hang in there

Jesus did two things during His ministry
He performed miracles
He taught in parables

the miracles are as temporary as the flesh that did receive them

the parables are forever

which is greater?
which do you desire?
 
King Phenomenon

King Phenomenon

Well-Known Member
Well it seems no one here was able to make a good argument that the miracles were a fact. There's no evidence that supports this and people don't even know if the authors of the Gospels are in fact who they claim to be. So as I suspected it boils down to faith. I can except that as a good enough reason some people believe in Jesus:)
 
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King Phenomenon

King Phenomenon

Well-Known Member
Samantha Rinne said:
In all probability, these miracles were ascribed to Jesus.

What I mean by this, is that they were added to explain allegorical content.

Let's look at the story of Noah's Ark. We have a simple yet implausible story of it raining for several days. Yet this story becomes more complicated when we understand that most cultures have this same stort handed down. That is to say, it happened in some form. It's a cultural memory. And what makes this weird is that some of these stories are centuries apart. There are three major theories about this story being a stand-in for literal event, and one theory besides that.
  1. This story is not about an actual flood. It's about redemption, and how God or the gods saved people who were depressed and unable to function
  2. This story is not about a literal flood. There was some sort of cataclysm (in some cases, an ancient nuclear war, in others a giant asteroid) that smashed off parts of Mars, turning it lifeless and forcing the human race ro move. This would explain why humans have repeated landmarks of what looks like monuments on Mars (supposedly there's a Stonehenge-like structure, for instance)
  3. This is about human life prior to their evolution to land. This is a racial memory of life underwater.
  4. The sinking of Atlantis or Mu.
Your mindset is like a child who can only see things in terms of "no, it was a lie," or " yes, it literally happened this way. "

But miracles aren't about turning water into wine or feeding five thousand people. That's a magic trick, if that's all there is. They're about what the miracles REPRESENT. People don't turn to Christianity because they are gullible and believe in fairy tales (or they'd believe in fairy tales). They believe in Christianity because they have met the person of Jesus in their life. Someone turned the mundane (water) into exciting (wine), and made their dreary life worth living. Someone showed them they have enough (feeding 5000).

Nobody believes a bit of fish and some bread can feed so many people. But the miracle was that people in the crowd opened their hearts and gave more bread and more fish.

Likewise, ask a divorced/widowed woman why the story of the woman at the well resonates with her.
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Yeah I suspect that most people don't take it literally and even apply it to reality today with statements like Jesus is alive! etc.
 
C

columbus

yawn <ignore> yawn
'mud said:
~The Carpenter is Jesus~
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At the risk of sounding insulting....

I remember the Carpenter Jesus, personally.
Several years back my parents had a close encounter with a tornado. Luckily the damage to the house was minor. One of the people who bid on the repairs was Jesus.
I think his last name was Gutierrez, but it was a long time ago. Someone else bid lower and had a local reputation for good work. So that's who my dad hired.
But I have actually met Jesus the carpenter.
Tom
 
February-Saturday

February-Saturday

Devil Worshiper
Deeje said:
Where does faith come into any of your arguments? Without faith, no one can come to God or his son. It is a prerequisite....(Hebrews 11:6) If we have no faith in God, we will never know him, nor will we be eligible for what he has in store for faithful humanity in the future.



You seem to believe that God must somehow provide you proof of his existence before you will believe in him......sorry, but that will never happen unless you are on the receiving end of his judgments....remember Noah?....the story goes that no one believed Noah when he told the people about what God was going to do.....he couldn't prove God's existence or his intentions to those people, but he tried to. He was met with ridicule and the people ignored his warning.....only when the water started swirling around their knees, did they contemplate the possibility of Noah's warning being correct....only with their last breath did they have to admit that he was right....we too have those same choices. (Matthew 24:27-39) Believe it or not.
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If you have no proof, then you have no place in a discussion about the historical analysis of Jesus, because history and historical analysis both require evidence. If you require me to just "have faith" that what you're saying is true, then you've failed to make a very convincing argument.

Thanks for the threats, though. I now understand your God a bit better. What a cruel, petty man.
 
L

lostwanderingsoul

Well-Known Member
John 6:44 says that no one can come to Jesus unless the Father draws him. If one is not drawn he will probably not believe in any miracles or anything else. That is why there are atheists. They have not been drawn to believe.
 
Brickjectivity

Brickjectivity

wind and rain touch not this brain
Staff member
Premium Member
Power Stone said:
Why don't people believe that Jesus performed miracles? Are all the witnesses lying?
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Assume they are telling things that literally happen, but also assume that miracles can be faked and convincingly.What should we do when someone tells us to listen to their message, their communication from God to us through themselves? Should we believe them because of miracles, or should we only believe them if what they are saying prods our consciences? What good, then, is the tale of miracle itself good for except as a vehicle for a story or lesson? To sum up my point, what is more important: to seek miracles and guarantees of the supernatural or to stop being self centered and to do that which our consciences compel us to do?
 
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