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Franklin Graham and "Religious Freedom"

Messianic Israelite

Active Member
I'm sorry, but I'm not interested in what the Bible has to say about the subject. That book has a remarkably poor understanding of most psychological issues.

However, I can't help but notice that you talk about "sinful people" and at the very same time say it "should be treated as a mental health issue." So I take it that you think people who are mentally ill are evil, and ought to be shunned?

I have to say, that is precisely the attitude I expect from people who try to stuff their scripture down my throat.

Now, why is gender reassignment happening more than it used to? Because it's possible now, and it wasn't before. As one of your articles said, "you just lived with it." Oh, living with it was very hard -- and lots of people took the other option -- suicide -- but I don't suppose that's as bad as trying to confront what is for some people a difficult problem (one I certainly don't understand), and dealing with it.
Hi Evangelicalhumanist. Good morning. I'm not a calluos person, even though my fervour for the Way might suggest that. I do not believe in gender reassignment and am worried about it gaining so much ground recently. I'm concerned that if such is protected by law it will encourage others to follow the same route. Have you read this: High court to decide if children can consent to gender reassignment Children being considered if they can give informed consent to medical treatment for gender reassignment. It's madness. Yes, I do consider the issues regarding gender identity to be a mental health problem, but many sins relate to mental health issues, don't they? That's not to say people should give in to their mental health problem, but they should seek help.

I'm a person of compassion. If you knew what I did outside of work, you would realise that. But, I find gender reassignment such a departure from the Bible, that is really heinous to me. It's a slap in Yahweh's face to say that He didn't know what He was doing when he gave us our gender. But have you noticed how many gender identities (gender neutral, non-binary, agender, pangender, genderqueer, two-spirit, third gender) they are today? Oh no, male and female aren't good enough anymore, but what does Yahweh say "And Elohim created man in his own image, in the image of Elohim created he him; male and female created he them." In my late teens going in to my early 20's, I used some forums for people of my age group and on there people started calling themselves by all sorts of gender identities like it was a fad to associate with anything that wasn't just male or female. Young people are being brainwashed by this liberal attitude when this is a serious, dangerous topic. At the universities, you are seeing this liberalism already well set in. And yet, many of the trans people themselves are calling it a mistake, as I already pointed out in my last post. I mean, some people are even saying they are genderless, which is a prevarication of the facts.

If you stand up for gender reassignment, you really are missing the point. If so many trans people are being vocal and brave enough to say transition was a mistake, then your support for this confusion becomes harmful support. Read this case: 27-year-old man regrets having surgery | Sex Change Regret It proves that evil companionship's corrupt good morals. This nonsense needs to be put to bed. But it won't be, this will no doubt continue until Yahshua returns.
 

Heyo

Veteran Member
Hi Evangelicalhumanist. Good morning. I'm not a calluos person, even though my fervour for the Way might suggest that. I do not believe in gender reassignment and am worried about it gaining so much ground recently. I'm concerned that if such is protected by law it will encourage others to follow the same route. Have you read this: High court to decide if children can consent to gender reassignment Children being considered if they can give informed consent to medical treatment for gender reassignment. It's madness. Yes, I do consider the issues regarding gender identity to be a mental health problem, but many sins relate to mental health issues, don't they? That's not to say people should give in to their mental health problem, but they should seek help.

I'm a person of compassion. If you knew what I did outside of work, you would realise that. But, I find gender reassignment such a departure from the Bible, that is really heinous to me. It's a slap in Yahweh's face to say that He didn't know what He was doing when he gave us our gender. But have you noticed how many gender identities (gender neutral, non-binary, agender, pangender, genderqueer, two-spirit, third gender) they are today? Oh no, male and female aren't good enough anymore, but what does Yahweh say "And Elohim created man in his own image, in the image of Elohim created he him; male and female created he them." In my late teens going in to my early 20's, I used some forums for people of my age group and on there people started calling themselves by all sorts of gender identities like it was a fad to associate with anything that wasn't just male or female. Young people are being brainwashed by this liberal attitude when this is a serious, dangerous topic. At the universities, you are seeing this liberalism already well set in. And yet, many of the trans people themselves are calling it a mistake, as I already pointed out in my last post. I mean, some people are even saying they are genderless, which is a prevarication of the facts.

If you stand up for gender reassignment, you really are missing the point. If so many trans people are being vocal and brave enough to say transition was a mistake, then your support for this confusion becomes harmful support. Read this case: 27-year-old man regrets having surgery | Sex Change Regret It proves that evil companionship's corrupt good morals. This nonsense needs to be put to bed. But it won't be, this will no doubt continue until Yahshua returns.
If you don't like gender reassignment, don't get one.
 

Messianic Israelite

Active Member
If you don't like gender reassignment, don't get one.
Hi Heyo. Good morning. I hope you realise that true love isn't saying, if you don't like it, don't get it. It's saying, love for my neighbour means I wouldn't want them to do something that they would later in life regret and you would do what you could from making that potential mistake.
 

Heyo

Veteran Member
Hi Heyo. Good morning. I hope you realise that true love isn't saying, if you don't like it, don't get it. It's saying, love for my neighbour means I wouldn't want them to do something that they would later in life regret and you would do what you could from making that potential mistake.
Yes, that's what I'm doing now. I'm trying to get you to rethink your arrogant, authoritarian position of thinking your religion gives you the entitlement to want to regulate what your neighbour can and can't do. It not only reflects bad on you but also bad on your religion and all religions.
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But I don't want to come off as just antagonistic. I agree with you that children can't consent and parents shouldn't be allowed to consent to operations that are not medically necessary at behalf of your children. Just wait until the local age of consent. Just as it should be for circumcision. I'm glad that we agree on that because it is rare among Israelites.
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
@KenS, regarding your NAMBLA-related comment, there is ample case law that children cannot give consent for sexual activity, and therefore sexual activity with a child is a crime. There is no reasonable argument for employment protection for such criminals.

My response was simply an "other side of the coin" on children sacrifice. They also can't give consent for a sacrifice.

Of course I believe that in either case it was wrong. @Evangelicalhumanist simply was using a wrong analogy
 

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I have no idea how this gender identity and gender reassignment has taken such an upswing in recent years except Satan is the one behind it. It's appalling.
Sounds like you've come to a firm conclusion on this already.
Why the upswing? More openness. Atypical sexual orientations are more accepted, and those who previously hid are now in the open.

More medical awareness and new surgical techniques.
And so many who reassign regret attempting to change their gender as we read in articles such as this one: Hundreds of trans people regret changing their gender, says trans activist. It should be considered a mental health problem and if you disagree, read the comments of those who are lamenting that they ever went for gender reassignment. NHS facilities in the UK have started to offer guidance on gender transition to children as young as 3 or 4 years old and participation in gender transition programs has skyrocketed. It's horrendous. Do you think they'll be gender reassignment in the Kingdom of Yahweh? No. There won't be.
Link doesn't work, but it sounds like better pre-surgicaal screening is needed.
Reassignment doesn’t work. It’s impossible to “reassign” someone’s sex physically, and attempting to do so doesn’t produce good outcomes psychosocially. Here’s how The Guardian summarized the results of a review of “more than 100 follow-up studies of post-operative transsexuals” by Birmingham University’s Aggressive Research Intelligence Facility: "[The Aggressive Research Intelligence Facility], which conducts reviews of health care treatments for the [National Health Service], concludes that none of the studies provides conclusive evidence that gender reassignment is beneficial for patients. It found that most research was poorly designed, which skewed the results in favor of physically changing sex. There was no evaluation of whether other treatments, such as long-term counseling, might help transsexuals, or whether their gender confusion might lessen over time."
Another link fail, but, again, this sounds like poor presurgical screening.
It's confusion. Yahweh isn't the author of confusion. He is the author of order and peace as we read in 1 Corinthians 14:33. Why should confusion be protected by Law? Leviticus 19:19 is adequate proof that Yahweh does not approve of gender reassignment. It can be applied to this and this is Torah. Horrible. I'm certainly not going to stand for it.
The Bible isn't "proof" of anything, any more than the Quran, the Gita or the Satanic Bible. Nor is there any evidence for this Satan vs Yahweh conspiracy you've concluded is behind the rise in gender reassignment.
 

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Hi Evangelicalhumanist. Good morning. I'm not a calluos person, even though my fervour for the Way might suggest that. I do not believe in gender reassignment and am worried about it gaining so much ground recently. I'm concerned that if such is protected by law it will encourage others to follow the same route. Have you read this: High court to decide if children can consent to gender reassignment Children being considered if they can give informed consent to medical treatment for gender reassignment. It's madness. Yes, I do consider the issues regarding gender identity to be a mental health problem, but many sins relate to mental health issues, don't they? That's not to say people should give in to their mental health problem, but they should seek help.
How would you help them? As I see it, we can attempt to change the brain, attempt to change the body, or attempt to change the society, but attempts to talk the brain into matching the body have had a worse record of success than fixing the body to match the brain.
I'm a person of compassion. If you knew what I did outside of work, you would realise that. But, I find gender reassignment such a departure from the Bible, that is really heinous to me. It's a slap in Yahweh's face to say that He didn't know what He was doing when he gave us our gender.
But doesn't this Yahweh make mistakes all the time? If someone is born with a clubfoot or cleft palate, do you object to surgical correction; would this, too, not be be a slap in the face?
If not, I don't see the difference.
If a man is born with a woman's brain, what should be done, fix the brain or fix the body?
But have you noticed how many gender identities (gender neutral, non-binary, agender, pangender, genderqueer, two-spirit, third gender) they are today?
You don't think they always existed?
Oh no, male and female aren't good enough anymore, but what does Yahweh say "And Elohim created man in his own image, in the image of Elohim created he him; male and female created he them."
Yahweh never said that. What evidence do you have for this claim?
What do you make of birth defects,? natural, or rebellions against God? Do you truly think there is no natural variation in sexual focus or drive?
In my late teens going in to my early 20's, I used some forums for people of my age group and on there people started calling themselves by all sorts of gender identities like it was a fad to associate with anything that wasn't just male or female. Young people are being brainwashed by this liberal attitude when this is a serious, dangerous topic.
Young people are being "talked into" neurological variations -- that can be seen on brain scans and X-rays? Are four year olds being "talked into" neurological abnormalities -- even before they know what sexuality is?
And how is one child talked into into sexual abnormality, whilest the other children of the same family are not?
Finally,how is all this dangerous?
At the universities, you are seeing this liberalism already well set in. And yet, many of the trans people themselves are calling it a mistake, as I already pointed out in my last post. I mean, some people are even saying they are genderless, which is a prevarication of the facts.
What do you have against liberty and freedom of thought? Don't people go to university precisely to be exposed to, and think about, new ideas? Should we all be indoctrinated and forced into uniformity in some sort of police state?

Gender, as I understand its current usage, is psychological, while sex is anatomical. Perhaps some people are genderless, by this definition.
Just because no perfect therapy exists for a condition making the sufferer miserable, should we forbid all attempts to help, or attempts to find a solution?

I'll bet the first attempts to correct clubfeet or cleft palates were less than successful, as well.
If you stand up for gender reassignment, you really are missing the point. If so many trans people are being vocal and brave enough to say transition was a mistake, then your support for this confusion becomes harmful support. Read this case: 27-year-old man regrets having surgery | Sex Change Regret It proves that evil companionship's corrupt good morals. This nonsense needs to be put to bed. But it won't be, this will no doubt continue until Yahshua returns.
Evil companionship is responsible for therapeutic failure? What is this "evil," and how does it alter neural anatomy?

If a therapeutic approach is found to be ineffective in many cases, is this the fault of the modality itself, or some other factor? Shouldn't we try to improve the outcomes, rather than declaring the 'abnormality' sinful and forbidding it?
 

Messianic Israelite

Active Member
How would you help them? As I see it, we can attempt to change the brain, attempt to change the body, or attempt to change the society, but attempts to talk the brain into matching the body have had a worse record of success than fixing the body to match the brain.
But doesn't this Yahweh make mistakes all the time? If someone is born with a clubfoot or cleft palate, do you object to surgical correction; would this, too, not be be a slap in the face?
If not, I don't see the difference.
If a man is born with a woman's brain, what should be done, fix the brain or fix the body?
You don't think they always existed?
Yahweh never said that. What evidence do you have for this claim?
What do you make of birth defects,? natural, or rebellions against God? Do you truly think there is no natural variation in sexual focus or drive? Young people are being "talked into" neurological variations -- that can be seen on brain scans and X-rays? Are four year olds being "talked into" neurological abnormalities -- even before they know what sexuality is?
And how is one child talked into into sexual abnormality, whilest the other children of the same family are not?
Finally,how is all this dangerous?
What do you have against liberty and freedom of thought? Don't people go to university precisely to be exposed to, and think about, new ideas? Should we all be indoctrinated and forced into uniformity in some sort of police state?

Gender, as I understand its current usage, is psychological, while sex is anatomical. Perhaps some people are genderless, by this definition.
Just because no perfect therapy exists for a condition making the sufferer miserable, should we forbid all attempts to help, or attempts to find a solution?

I'll bet the first attempts to correct clubfeet or cleft palates were less than successful, as well.
Evil companionship is responsible for therapeutic failure? What is this "evil," and how does it alter neural anatomy?

If a therapeutic approach is found to be ineffective in many cases, is this the fault of the modality itself, or some other factor? Shouldn't we try to improve the outcomes, rather than declaring the 'abnormality' sinful and forbidding it?

Good morning Valjean. I hope you are well.
The differences between male and female sexes are anatomical and physiological. Futhermore, for children especially, normal development and functioning require accepting their physical being and understanding their embodied selves as male or female. I can imagine that in a few years, when a baby is delivered, they won't even call them a boy or a girl. They might just call them X, despite the biological evidence. Male and female brains are, on average, slightly different in structure. So far, I haven't seen evidence to show that, before trans people start taking antiestrogens (or so-called "estrogen blockers") like aromatase inhibitors their brains were any different from those of their peers. Extensive studies by neuroscientists confirm that our mental machinations do alter the physical structure of our brain matter. So, when you change your mind, you change your brain. As a result, it is our behavior and experience that can shape brain anatomy. What they need to do is seek help and it starts with prayer.

No I agree that men and women are different, but I do not believe that one could be born a different sex to that which they are. There have always been tomboys, and people who like to do things generally associated with another gender, or behave in a way which is less feminime for a women or masculine for a man, but I believe as the Orthodox Jews do that gender is an innate and eternal category which is based on verses in the Book of Genesis about Adam and Eve and the creation of maleness and femaleness. You can read Leviticus 22:24 which says that the removal of genital organs is forbidden on the basis of the prohibition against "anything which is mauled, crushed, torn or cut" (Lev. 22:24). A further prohibition in Deut. 22:5, proscribes not only cross-dressing but any action uniquely identified with the opposite sex, and this would also apply to an operation to transform sexual characteristics. There is also Torah law instructing us not to mix two different seeds. Ultimately, Yahweh is one who makes a distinction between the holy and the common as we read in Ezekiel 44:23 and we cannot interfere with the gender we were given at birth.

Now it's my turn to ask you something. There's a guy I was reading up on who considers himself to be a Cyborg. You may have heard of him. His mother says, for the last two years, her 24-year-old son has claimed he is a cyborg and uses robotic movements and speech. Should we let him believe that he is a cyborg? Or should we challenge that person? What if he wanted to implant some cybernetic enhancements in to his body? What if you found that his brain was different from that of others? Does that mean he shouldn't seek help? We cannot start to justify those who aren't thinking right. This attitude is one of coldness where we say we should cater to their needs and not rightly recognising an underlying mental health issue. It's unnatural, and it's evil and it's leading to so much confusion in society and it will end when Yahshua returns.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
One of the issues here is drawing the line as to what constitutes a religious employer. A church, synagogue, or other house of worship, and associated diocese or synod? Sure. A seminary? Okay. What about a college or university—Graham’s bailiwick? Hospitals—Catholic hospitals are probably the largest in number, but there are other denominations that own hospitals, what about those? A religious book publisher? A religious newspaper? Did the Founders consider all of these to be included in freedom of religion? Should we consider them so when it comes to employment?
You're doing a good job of illustrating some of the problems that come up when we try to carve out special treatment for religion under the law: it always ends up with arbitrary distinctions and the government deciding what is and isn't a valid religion, and what is and isn't a valid expression of a "valid" religion.

Religious freedom isn't really a freedom in its own right; it's just a particular expression of more general freedoms like freedom of belief and conscience, freedom of expression, and freedom of association.

It would be much better, IMO, to get rid of special legal treatment for religion and instead enshrine the actual rights that religious people - and others - need to live and practice according to their conscience and beliefs.

Otherwise, we get into absurd situations (e.g. different protections for religious vegetarians than ethical vegetarians) and the courts ruling on what is and is not "valid" religion and religious expression in the eyes of the law.

Personally, I don't really care if a bookstore is owned by a church or a factory owner sees her business as an expression of her faith. It shouldn't be a factor in which laws they should have to obey.
 

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
.... What they need to do is seek help and it starts with prayer.
You're going to pray yourself into a different gender?When has that ever worked?
Weren't there a lot of religious based treatment centers at one time specializing in "converting" homosexuals? They were abysmal failures, as I recall.

No I agree that men and women are different, but I do not believe that one could be born a different sex to that which they are.
Definitions needed here. Isn't "sex" usually conceived of as anatomical? How can one be born anatomically different from oneself?
Are you talking about sexual identity or focus; about gender? You don't believe an anatomically normal male can be born with a female brain?
What are you basing this belief on?

There have always been tomboys, and people who like to do things generally associated with another gender, or behave in a way which is less feminime for a women or masculine for a man, but I believe as the Orthodox Jews do that gender is an innate and eternal category which is based on verses in the Book of Genesis about Adam and Eve and the creation of maleness and femaleness.
And yet X-rays, CAT scans, fMRIs, and PET scans reveal that there are more brain and neurological configurations than just 'male' and 'female'. Genesis is wrong.
You can read Leviticus 22:24 which says that the removal of genital organs is forbidden on the basis of the prohibition against "anything which is mauled, crushed, torn or cut" (Lev. 22:24). A further prohibition in Deut. 22:5, proscribes not only cross-dressing but any action uniquely identified with the opposite sex, and this would also apply to an operation to transform sexual characteristics. There is also Torah law instructing us not to mix two different seeds. Ultimately, Yahweh is one who makes a distinction between the holy and the common as we read in Ezekiel 44:23 and we cannot interfere with the gender we were given at birth.
If we were to adhere strictly to the Jewish Halakha, most of what we ate, wore and did would be forbidden. Only a handful of ultra-orthodox Jews believe these laws apply to current situations.
Or are you cherry picking what appeals to you personally?

Now it's my turn to ask you something. There's a guy I was reading up on who considers himself to be a Cyborg. You may have heard of him. His mother says, for the last two years, her 24-year-old son has claimed he is a cyborg and uses robotic movements and speech. Should we let him believe that he is a cyborg? Or should we challenge that person? [/quote]
Sometimes directly challenging a delusion just reinforces it. The therapeutic approach best for this particular patient is a question for his psychiatrist.
What if he wanted to implant some cybernetic enhancements in to his body? What if you found that his brain was different from that of others?
Apparently he already believes he's got cybernetic implants, and I expect his brain is different from others, or he wouldn't have this delusion.
His delusion is dysfunctional, and I can't comment on its etiology.

Homosexuality &al are just a normal neurological variations, like left handedness or blue eyes. It's dysfunctional only if the culture rejects it, not from anything intrinsic.
Does that mean he shouldn't seek help? We cannot start to justify those who aren't thinking right.
But the varieties of sexual orientation are not errors in thinking, they are normal variations. Therapy should be reserved for those who really are "not thinking right."
This attitude is one of coldness where we say we should cater to their needs and not rightly recognising an underlying mental health issue. It's unnatural, and it's evil and it's leading to so much confusion in society and it will end when Yahshua returns.
But this is simply wrong, as all medical evidence attests, and the confusion is amongst those who reject or are unaware of modern medicine.
"Evil?" How is it evil? How are you defining evil? What determines evil?
Divine command morality?
 

Wandering Monk

Well-Known Member
One of the issues here is drawing the line as to what constitutes a religious employer. A church, synagogue, or other house of worship, and associated diocese or synod? Sure. A seminary? Okay. What about a college or university—Graham’s bailiwick? Hospitals—Catholic hospitals are probably the largest in number, but there are other denominations that own hospitals, what about those? A religious book publisher? A religious newspaper? Did the Founders consider all of these to be included in freedom of religion? Should we consider them so when it comes to employment?

If they are 501c3, should they be treated differently than any other non-profit?
 

night912

Well-Known Member
First of all, I don't see such law or rule to be useful in the first place. It is like desperately treating one of the many symptoms and ignoring the ever worsening disease.
To not treat one symptom is to ignore the disease itself. How is treating one symptom not useful. And why is not treating one symptom is better than not treating any at all?

Secondly, I am a Muslim and if and when I worry about persecution, I seek help from Allah, not human made laws.
So you don't care if you are persecuted? It's humans and human laws that that will be doing the persecution.

Thirdly, everyone knows rulings like this are impossible to actually apply properly and to guarantee people abide by them. In fact, it is guaranteed by default that not all people are going to abide by them and the consequences will largely be nothing.
So are you admitting that you are one of the ones that will violate that law? If you are, then why would it matter if the law exist or not. If you are not one of them, then
 
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