How can Jesus inherit the throne of David?

The Anointed said:

Adonijah and Solomon were both brothers in that that were sired by the one father, 'King David,' Nathan was not a half brother, but a step brother, the son of Bathsheba and her husband 'Uriah; the husband of Bathsheba,'

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Once again, you have yet to bring a source for this, as I've already requested you do twice on this thread.

Harel13 said:

As stated on the other thread, several times, ch. 4 of Judges makes no mention of either Caleb or Jephunneh.
What I'm looking for is: a. a source that specifically says that Jephunneh is the Cusheet woman that married Moses. b. a source that specifically says that Uriah the Hittite is a descendant of Moses through that woman. c. a source that specifically says that Natan the prophet is the son of Uriah the Hittite.

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Asked yourself, who is the daughter of Hobab the descendant of Cush, who was the second father-in-law of Moses, (See Judges 4: 11) and why was Caleb the son of Jjephunneh, given such a prominent position in the land of Israel?

Harel13 said:

As stated on the other thread, several times, ch. 4 of Judges makes no mention of either Caleb or Jephunneh.
What I'm looking for is: a. a source that specifically says that Jephunneh is the Cusheet woman that married Moses. b. a source that specifically says that Uriah the Hittite is a descendant of Moses through that woman. c. a source that specifically says that Natan the prophet is the son of Uriah the Hittite.

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I never said that Uriah was a descendant of Moses.

Bathsheba the daughter of Ammiel the son of Obed-Edom is a descendant of Moses through his adopted son Caleb the son of Jephunneh.

Of the four sons of Bathsheba, Solomon is the youngest, and Solomon was the second and only surviving son of Bathsheba who was sired by David.

The Anointed said:

Asked yourself, who is the daughter of Hobab the descendant of Cush, who was the second father-in-law of Moses, and why was Caleb the son of Jjephunneh, given such a prominent position in the land of Israel?

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The name Hobab appears twice in the Bible and in neither of those times is it stated that Hobab is a descendant of Cush. In the first time it is stated that he is a son of Reuel the Midianite, who, like all Midianites, is a descendant of Abraham by Keturah. In the second time it is stated that Chever the Keinite left the other Keinite descendants of Hobab, father-in-law of Moses.

Neither of these state what you suggest about Hobab being from Cush or that Jephunneh is his daughter or that she married Moses.

Harel13 said:

The name Hobab appears twice in the Bible and in neither of those times is it stated that Hobab is a descendant of Cush. In the first time it is stated that he is a son of Reuel the Midianite, who, like all Midianites, is a descendant of Abraham by Keturah. In the second time it is stated that Chever the Keinite left the other Keinite descendants of Hobab, father-in-law of Moses.

Neither of these state what you suggest about Hobab being from Cush or that Jephunneh is his daughter or that she married Moses.

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Hobab is a Kenite, all Kenites are descendants of Ham through his son Cush. Hobab the Kenite is also the brother-in-law of Moses, in that he also married one of Jethro's daughters.

Hobab the Kenite, who is a descendant of Ham through his son Cush, and like Moses, was also the son, or rather, the son-in-law of Jethro the Midianite a descendant of Abraham.

Jephunneh the daughter of Hobab, who was the widow of an un-named man from the tribe of Judah, and mother of the forty year old Caleb, was later taken to wife by Moses, as a means to keep Hobab, the Kenite a descendant of Cush, and father-in-law of Moses, who knew the desert like the back of his hand, as the guide for the Israelites as they wandered the wilderness.

Night, night now, I'm off to drop the lead into the weeping willow and plough the deep. Catch you tomorrow, time permitting and God willing/

The Anointed said:

The Joseph, who was betrothed to Mary, is Joseph ben Jacob, who is a descendant of Solomon of the house of David, but he is descended through the cursed genetic line of Jehoiachin, of who it is said in Jeremiah 22: 29-30; O land, land, land! Listen to what the LORD has said: “This man is condemned to lose his children, to be a man who will never succeed. He will have no descendants (NO DESCENDANTS) who will rule in Judah as David's successors. I, the LORD, have spoken.” According to this, Joseph ben Jacob, nor any of his descendants (Even Step-sons) could ever hope to rule in Judah as David’s successor.

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The curse on Jehoiachin was lifted even if it is not stated that clearly in the Bible. see this link: The Problem of the Curse on Jeconiah in Relation to the Genealogy of Jesus

The Anointed said:

It was Joseph the son of Heli, with whom Mary conceived the child Jesus, as revealed in the gospel of Luke 3: 23; where it is written; "Now Jesus himself was about thirty years old when he began his ministry. He was the son, of Joseph, the son of Heli, the son of Matthat, a descendant of Nathan the son of David and Bathsheba, and although a descendant of David, Nathan nor any of his descendants had any claim to that throne, as only a descendant of Solomon could ever claim succession to the throne of David.

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Luke actually says that it was thought that Jesus was the son of Joseph.

Luke 3:23 Now Jesus himself was about thirty years old when he began his ministry. He was the son, so it was thought, of Joseph,

Interestingly both the Matthew and Luke genealogies, even though mostly different, meet up at Zerubbabel and Shealtiel, son and grandson of Jeconiah/Jehoiachin/Coniah.(assuming this is the same Zerubbabel and Shealtiel in both genealogies) This is interesting because it shows the curse was lifted, since the early Jews accepted Jesus as heir to the throne of David,,,,,,,,,,,,,and because it means that both Matthew's and Luke's genealogy go through Solomon or Nathan. There could have been a levirate marriage along the way (marriage where the brothers of a dead man who had no sons, married and bore children for his brother, to carry on his brother's line).

The Anointed said:

It is God's unconditional promise that the posterity of David, specifically that of Solomon, will possess the kingship forever. God assures that there will always be a male of paternal Solomonic descent with the right to reign upon David's throne.

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Things get more complicated when we realise that Solomon was not necessarily meant to be an ancestor of the Messiah. This was a conditional promise based on whether Solomon was faithful to God. (2Chron 7:17,18) and when we review Solomon's life we do find that he was not that faithful.
Neither Necessary nor Inevitable

The only sure line of the Messiah is from David, and Jesus ticks that box in both genealogies.
There have been attempts by people to work out the genealogies in such a way that everything is fine and I get confused by the whole thing,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,but there is really no problem with Jeconiah's curse and the problem with Nathan is an iffy one considering the life of Solomon.

And when we think about the Messiah coming through a patriarchal lineage that would be impossible with a virgin birth and I see that as a Jewsis legal requirement which was fulfilled by Jesus being born into the family of Joseph, but not something that God would worry about.
The initial prophecy in the Bible about the Messiah seems to indicate a line involving women or a woman.
Genesis 3:15 "And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers; he will crush your head and you will strike his heel.”
The fact of the virgin birth had to be covered by God in the way He did things, and I think it has been, along with the problem of Nathan and of Solomon and of Jeconiah.
But as I say it is a complicated thing and many have come up with different ways to see it and make the whole thing work.

The Anointed said:

I never said that Uriah was a descendant of Moses.

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Excuse me, my mistake. That Natan is a descendant of Moses through Bat-sheva. I see Oved-Edom does have a son name Amiel and they are a Levitical family, but how do you know that they are descendants of Moses? And how do you know through which wife?

The Anointed said:

Bathsheba the daughter of Ammiel the son of Obed-Edom is a descendant of Moses through his adopted son Caleb the son of Jephunneh.

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How do you explain the following verses:
"And David sent and inquired after the woman. And one said: 'Is not this Bath-sheba, the daughter of Eliam, the wife of Uriah the Hittite?'" (2 Samuel 11:3)
"Eliphelet the son of Ahasbai, the son of the Maacathite, Eliam the son of Ahithophel the Gilonite." (2 Samuel 23:34)

Here we see that Bat-sheva was the daughter of Eliam, son of Ahitophel, while in Chronicles we see her name is Bat-shua, daughter of Amiel. The reason we know that those two are the same woman is because they were both said to be the mother of Solomon. So what do we have? We have a woman with two names and a mysterious father.

The Eliam route suggests he is the son of Ahitophel, making both him and his first son-in-law, Uriah, warriors of David, further connecting him and his daughter to David, and explaining the phrase "Is not this Bat-sheva, the daughter of Eliam, the wife of Uriah" - as though David is supposed to be familiar with all three names! (but he should be, considering the father and son-in-law are two of his warriors and the daughter of one of them is the wife of the other)
The Amiel route suggests he is the son of Oved-Edom the Levite, in which case David would know him because he knew Oved-Edom, so maybe also knew his son(s)?

The Anointed said:

Hobab is a Kenite, all Kenites are descendants of Ham through his son Cush. Hobab the Kenite is also the brother-in-law of Moses, in that he also married one of Jethro's daughters.

Hobab the Kenite, who is a descendant of Ham through his son Cush, and like Moses, was also the son, or rather, the son-in-law of Jethro the Midianite a descendant of Abraham.

Jephunneh the daughter of Hobab, who was the widow of an un-named man from the tribe of Judah, and mother of the forty year old Caleb, was later taken to wife by Moses, as a means to keep Hobab, the Kenite a descendant of Cush, and father-in-law of Moses, who knew the desert like the back of his hand, as the guide for the Israelites as they wandered the wilderness.

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As you wrote basically the same on that other thread from over a month ago and have yet to back your claims, I see no reason to press the matter further.

I leave you with these questions:
a. How do you know that Hobab was the son-in-law of Jethro? After all, he is called in the Bible Hobab, son of Reuel the Midianite, Father-in-law of Moses - so either Reuel is the father-in-law or Hobab is, but in any case, Hobab is the son of Reuel and is a Midianite like him. The Midianites, as previously stated, were descendants of Abraham and Keturah.
b. How do you know the name of the Cusheet woman? How do you know Jephunneh was the this woman? How do you know that previously she was the widow of a man of Judah?

Note: if you're planning on giving the same answers to these questions you've given so far - no need, I'll pass. We already went through those same answers here:
Melchizedek: Psalm 110:4 and its Discontents

Power Stone said:

Maybe the Lord lifted the curse, unbeknownst to anyone, from the genetic line of Jehoiachin.

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It's true ... and I've already made thread showing it. Psalm 89 is about this curse. You can see in the Psalm how the Messiah comes from Davidic line. He is promised to reign as long as the sun or moon; but towards the end of the Psalm the Psalmist is puzzled because God has cast off and abhorred the line of David (this is speaking of the curse)... But Jesus has a way to overcome the curse.

Coniah was taken captive to Babylon and Jeremiah pronounced the curse on his line. Coniah wore a crown of gold but Jesus (because of the curse) wore a crown of thorns. It is symbolic that the kingship of David was cursed and instead of "prospering" on the throne of David. They put a robe on Jesus and they mocked Him and hit him in the face and said He was the king of the Jews. However, Jesus put that curse to death on the cross and when He rose from the dead; He was free from the curse and so restored the fallen fortunes of the line of David.

This is why Jesus said my kingdom is not of this world. Jesus could not prosper on the throne of David until after the resurrection. When He returns the second time He will be able to prosper on the throne of David thanks to the resurrection.

The Anointed said:

For those who believe that the genetic record in Matthew contradicts the genetic record in Luke.

Those people appear to have a problem comprehending that which is recorded in the scriptures. The genetic record in Matthew 1, is not that of Jesus the son of Mary, but that of Joseph the son of Jacob, who married Mary after she had given birth to her first son, Jesus.

The scriptures clearly show that Joseph ben Jacob as recorded in Matthew, remained engaged to the already pregnant Mary, who in Luke 2, was the SAME Joseph who took his heavily pregnant ‘FIANCEE’ to Bethlehem, where she gave birth to the first of her sons, and he was the step-father of Jesus, having no genetic connection to the child.

According to Matthew, Joseph the son of Jacob, was engaged to Mary, but when he found out that she was pregnant, he thought to break the engagement, but was told in a dream that the child was conceived by the power of the Holy Spirit, (As was Isaac, the son of Sarah and her half-brother Abraham) Joseph the son of Jacob then remained with the pregnant Mary , but had no sexual relations with her until after she had given birth to the first of her biological sons, and it was only then that he consummated his union with Mary, and they then became man and wife, after which she conceived her second son, named Joseph after his father.

The Joseph, who was betrothed to Mary, is Joseph ben Jacob, who is a descendant of Solomon of the house of David, but he is descended through the cursed genetic line of Jehoiachin, of who it is said in Jeremiah 22: 29-30; O land, land, land! Listen to what the LORD has said: “This man is condemned to lose his children, to be a man who will never succeed. He will have no descendants (NO DESCENDANTS) who will rule in Judah as David's successors. I, the LORD, have spoken.” According to this, Joseph ben Jacob, nor any of his descendants (Even Step-sons) could ever hope to rule in Judah as David’s successor.

It was Joseph the son of Heli, with whom Mary conceived the child Jesus, as revealed in the gospel of Luke 3: 23; where it is written; "Now Jesus himself was about thirty years old when he began his ministry. He was the son, of Joseph, the son of Heli, the son of Matthat, a descendant of Nathan the son of David and Bathsheba, and although a descendant of David, Nathan nor any of his descendants had any claim to that throne, as only a descendant of Solomon could ever claim succession to the throne of David.

Saul’s right to the kingship of Israel terminated with his death. No son of Saul ever sat on or had a right to the throne. But Solomon's descendants, with the exception of one branch of the family, (That of Jehoiachin the ancestor of Joseph the son of Jacob, who married Mary the mother of Jesus) would never lose their right to the throne. The punishment for disobedience would be chastening at the hands of men but not the termination of the monarchical right. It is God's unconditional promise that the posterity of David, specifically that of Solomon, will possess the kingship forever. God assures that there will always be a male of paternal Solomonic descent with the right to reign upon David's throne.

Through the genetic record in Matthew, Jesus the stepson of Joseph ben Jacob, a descendant of the cursed line of Jehoiachin, could not inherit the throne of David.

Through the genetic record of Jesus a descendant of Nathan and not Solomon, Jesus could not inherit the throne of his ancestor King David. So how can the prophecy of the messenger of God to Mary, "The Lord God will make him a king, as his ancestor David was, and he will be the king of the descendants of Jacob for ever; his kingdom will never end!” be fulfilled?

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Yes, so this prophecy is not about Jesus. It is regarding another Christ, who is from Jesse:


"And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots" (King James Version). From the Latin Vulgate Bible used in the Middle Ages: et egredietur virga de radice Iesse et flos de radice eius ascendet (Isaiah 11:1)

"This rod out of the stem of Jesse might be correctly applied to Christ, for Joseph was of the descendants of Jesse, the father of David; but as Christ found existence through the Spirit of God, He called Himself the Son of God. If He had not done so, this description would refer to Him. Besides this, the events which he indicated as coming to pass in the days of that rod, if interpreted symbolically, were in part fulfilled in the day of Christ, but not all; and if not interpreted, then decidedly none of these signs happened. For example, the leopard and the lamb, the lion and the calf, the child and the asp, are metaphors and symbols for various nations, peoples, antagonistic sects and hostile races, who are as opposite and inimical as the wolf and lamb. We say that by the breath of the spirit of Christ they found concord and harmony, they were vivified, and they associated together.
But “they shall not hurt nor destroy in all My holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the Lord, as the waters cover the sea.” These conditions did not prevail in the time of the manifestation of Christ; for until today various and antagonistic nations exist in the world: very few acknowledge the God of Israel, and the greater number are without the knowledge of God. In the same way, universal peace did not come into existence in the time of Christ—that is to say, between the antagonistic and hostile nations there was neither peace nor concord, disputes and disagreements did not cease, and reconciliation and sincerity did not appear. So, even at this day, among the Christian sects and nations themselves, enmity, hatred and the most violent hostility are met with.
But these verses apply word for word to Bahá’u’lláh"

-Abdulbaha, some answered questions
Bahá'í Reference Library - Some Answered Questions, Pages 62-66

Power Stone said:

Maybe the Lord lifted the curse, unbeknownst to anyone, from the genetic line of Jehoiachin.

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Does He change His mind? And assuming He could, there would be no point without telling us humans that were relying on His previous open statement of the curse.

Shaul said:

Does He change His mind? And assuming He could, there would be no point without telling us humans that were relying on His previous open statement of the curse.

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True, I guess we'll just have to except that it will never be fulfilled.

The Anointed said:

...Solomon of the house of David, but he is descended through the cursed genetic line of Jehoiachin, of who it is said in Jeremiah 22: 29-30; O land, land, land! Listen to what the LORD has said: “This man is condemned to lose his children, to be a man who will never succeed. He will have no descendants (NO DESCENDANTS) who will rule in Judah as David's successors. I, the LORD, have spoken.” According to this, Joseph ben Jacob, nor any of his descendants (Even Step-sons) could ever hope to rule in Judah as David’s successor.
....

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By what I know, Jeremiah is speaking of Coniah and Jesus is not son of Coniah.

Is this man Coniah a despised broken idol? is he a vessel wherein is no pleasure? wherefore are they cast out, he and his seed, and are cast into a land which they know not?
Jeremiah 22:28

For reference:

(Contradiction: Which geneaology of Jesus is correct?)

Harel13 said:

For reference:

(Contradiction: Which geneaology of Jesus is correct?)

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The geneaology in Matthew, is that of Joseph the son of Jacob, who remained engaged to Mary even after she was found to be pregnant to her half brother Joseph the son of Heli, is correct, but it is not the geneaology of Jesus as you have erroneously stated,

The geneaology in Luke is that of Jesus the son of Joseph the son of Heli is also correct,

Hezron had three sons, Jerahmeel, Ram, and Caleb, and Ram died childless and according to Jewish custom, Caleb married Ephrath the wife of Hezron's Son, 'Ram,' and Hezron's posterity is counted through Caleb-Ephrath.

But that is a subject far to complicated for someone who believes that the geneaology recorded in Matthew is that of Jesus, and way off topic, and I will leave you to work out who Arni and Admin the descendants of Hezron really are,

As to Zerubbabel the son of Shealtiel being in both geneaologies, I had already staten in post 8, that to find the answer, you must look to Zerubbabel the son of Shealtiel, the son of Neri.as recorded in Luke 3: 27 Apparently you haven't bothered to look.

Neri Married a descendant of Solomon named Tamar to who he sired Sheatiel the father of Zerubbabel before he died, after which, Tamar the descendant of Solomon was taken to wife by the eight or eighteen year old Jehoiachin. See 2 kings 24: 8. and 2 Chronicles 36: 9-10..

But I will leave it to an expert on Ancient World Linages to explain it to you.

David Hughes the noted Genealogist of the Ancient World Lineages, states that King Jeconiah’s only son, with Queen Tamar, ‘Prince Zedekiah,’ died prematurely in childhood, and in 586 BCE King Zedekiah, the last king of Israel, whose original name Mattaniah, was the son of Josiah and the uncle of Jehoiachin. King Zedekiah/Mattaniah, was taken prisoner and his sons were executed in front of him, after which, his eyes were gouged out, and there in Babylon, he remained blinded in exile for the rest of his life and it appeared that the entire royal lineage of King David through God’s chosen son, Solomon, had been exterminated.

With all the known direct lineages of male heirs to the lineage of King Solomon the son of King David and Bathsheba now extinct, Queen Tamar II became the dynastic heiress preserving not only the Lineage of King Solomon, but also became the inter-dynastic link, or the vital crossover heiress merging the non-royal Nathan lineage with the royal lineages of King Solomon. With the addition of Tamar representing the mainline descendants of King David, we now can understand the linkage between the two prime royal and non-royal lineages to the ancestry of the Jewish Messiah Yehoshua ben Yosef (Jesus son of Joseph the son of Alexander Helios a descendant of Nathan).

Jesus carried in his genes the potent fusion of Davidian and Zadokian bloodlines. He carried the potent bloodline of the royal mantle as a Priest-King of Israel and the messianic mantle as the Maschiach Yisra’el (Messiah of Israel) of the House of David.

BTW, I hate having to repeat myself, but as I have already told you, Hobab was a Kenite descendant of Cush, if he were the biological son of Jethro, he would not be a Kenite, he would have been Hobab the Midianite. The only way that Hobab the Kenite could be classified as a son of Jethro the Midianite, is if he had married one of Jethro's daughters, thereby becoming the Son-in-law of Jethro and brother-in-law to Moses, and later on the father-in-law to Moses when he married the Ethiopian daughter of Hobab the Kenite.

I hope the truth sinks in this time.

Continued from post #35.

In your post #28 you said; "I leave you with these questions:
Caleb, the son of Jepunniah, (See Numbers 14: 38.and Numbers 32: 12.) was not only the son of a man from the tribe of Judah, he was also a high chief within that tribe. Jepunneh the Kennizite, could not have been the Judahite father of Caleb, so Jephunneh the Ethiopian descendant of Cush, had to have been the mother of Caleb. Got that mate?

Judges 1: 16; refers to Hobab the Kenite as the father-in-law of Moses, as does Judges 4: 11. The Ethiopian Hobab can only be the father-in-law of Moses, if Moses married his Ethiopian daughter.. Got that mate.

I will leave you to chew over that information for a while.

The Anointed said:

As I have already told you in post #35, Hobab was a Kenite descendant of Cush, if he were the biological son of Jethro, he would not be a Kenite, he would have been Hobab the Midianite. The only way that Hobab the Kenite could be classified as a son of Jethro the Midianite, is if he had married one of Jethro's daughters, thereby becoming the Son-in-law of Jethro and brother-in-law to Moses, and later on the father-in-law to Moses when he married the Ethiopian daughter of Hobab the Kenite.

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But never is he called a son-in-law of Jethro. He's called a son of Reuel.

The Anointed said:

so Jephunneh the Ethiopian descendant of Cush

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Baseless as usual.

The Anointed said:

Judges 1: 16; refers to Hobab the Kenite as the father-in-law of Moses

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I don't know what version of the Bible you're using, but in my Hebrew version, it says "Bnei Keini choten Moshe" - the sons of Keini, the father-in-law of Moses. No Hobab in that verse. Per your understanding, this means that Moses had 3 father-in-laws: Jethro, Hobab and Keini. Regardless, none are referred as descendants of Cush. In fact, in Judges 4 we find out why they're called Kenites, being descended from a man called Kain.

The Anointed said:

I will leave you to chew over that information for a while.

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Chew on what? Nothing you've said is new...where I'm from, repeating baseless facts like a mindless mantra doesn't make them anymore correct.

The Anointed said:

but it is not the geneaology of Jesus as you have erroneously stated

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Me? I think you have me confused with another poster. I'm not on this thread because I care about Jesus's messed-up genealogies.

The Anointed said:

But that is a subject far to complicated for someone who believes that the geneaology recorded in Matthew is that of Jesus, and way off topic, and I will leave you to work out who Arni and Admin the descendants of Hezron really are

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Yes, yes, I know you enjoy lording over people with knowledge you do not possess.
More to the point, I greatly doubt that both genealogies are real genealogies of Jesus, so I don't care either way.

The Anointed said:

Apparently you haven't bothered to look.

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Why should I? Like I said, I'm not here because of the thread's main subject, nor did I ever question your first post. I brought the picture for reference for anyone who may wish to understand the confusion.

First the two genealogies are totally unreliable for the obvious reason, it is a paternal genealogy which excludes the mother and their ancestral line. To be sure, is this tread about:
According to the genealogy in Matthew 1:12, Jesus is a descendant of Jeconiah. But Jeconiah was cursed in Jeremiah 22:24 and 22:30:

As surely as I live," declares the LORD, "even if you, Jehoiachin son of Jehoiakim king of Judah, were a signet ring on my right hand, I would still pull you off.

This is what the LORD says: "Record this man as if childless, a man who will not prosper in his lifetime, for none of his offspring will prosper, none will sit on the throne of David or rule any more in Judah."

Since no descendant of Jeconiah could ever sit on the throne, if Jesus is a descendant of this cursed king, he is disqualified from being the Messiah.

This has been a major problems throughout history.

It has to do with the fact that Jesus, who WAS a son of David (according to the flesh) has been exalted to be David's Lord by being raised from the dead to sit on David's throne. Christ is no longer a son of David, according to the flesh, but is only the son of God, according to the spirit. Christ is King of righteousness and King of peace.
That brings an entirely new aspect into the kingdom of God which could never had happened before because of the sinfulness of the kings. Christ is made greater than both David and Solomon.