Satan information misleading..

OMG I thought this thread was long dead. Oh well.

May, you just stated and explained everything I wished to know regarding this matter. Thankyou.

SoulTYPE01 said:

OMG I thought this thread was long dead. Oh well.

May, you just stated and explained everything I wished to know regarding this matter. Thankyou.

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I read an interesting book on angels wherein, although they don't go very much into the 'fallen' ones, a different viewpoint on Satan was offered. (I can find the name of the book and the era to which it was attributed, but my bookshelf is trying to hide my books in its' chaos.) In this one, God asked the angels to volunteer to be a temptor of humanity, one who would lead people astray so that God might then teach them the wisdom as they were being led back to the 'true' path. None of the angels wanted to volunteer, realizing it would mean separation from heaven, but Satan, alone among all of them, asked to do so, for his love of humanity was so great.

I thought it was a rather interesting variation on the tale. It was the version that was discussed, apparently, before the 'fallen' version came into being.

I fail to see how they can reconcile the death of Jesus being a victory for Satan with Jesus having to die to cleanse us of our sins...One would think the two would be mutually exclusive.

The death of Jesus at the cross was not a victory for Satan, I agree there LL. Satan was not necessarily in those who tortured Jesus and crucified Him.

I think that is a desperate victory more than a proper one.

About Satan being a fallen angel, I do not believe that at all.

may said:

This original opposer, or Satan (meaning "Resister"), was the one who used a serpent as a mouthpiece when speaking to Eve to induce her to disobey God. (Genesis 3:1-6) That is why he is also called "the original serpent." (Revelation 12:9) Jesus himself said of Satan: "That one was a manslayer when he began, and he did not stand fast in the truth, because truth is not in him." (John 8:44; 1 John 3:8) Jesus thus identified Satan as one who once enjoyed God’s favor but who rebelled against Jehovah God.

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I have to disagree with you may, what of the Kabbalistic writings that the serpent is, in fact, Adam's first wife, Lilith?

jewscout said:

I have to disagree with you may, what of the Kabbalistic writings that the serpent is, in fact, Adam's first wife, Lilith?

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I am basing my theories on the Genesis report.

jewscout said:

I have to disagree with you may, what of the Kabbalistic writings that the serpent is, in fact, Adam's first wife, Lilith?

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My belief is only based on the bible , as i believe that only the bible is the word of God

That's what I meant in my post btw. Great minds think alike.

may said:

Satan (meaning "resister") and Devil (meaning "slanderer").

This original opposer, or Satan (meaning "Resister"), was the one who used a serpent as a mouthpiece when speaking to Eve to induce her to disobey God. (Genesis 3:1-6) That is why he is also called "the original serpent." (Revelation 12:9) Jesus himself said of Satan: "That one was a manslayer when he began, and he did not stand fast in the truth, because truth is not in him." (John 8:44; 1 John 3:8) Jesus thus identified Satan as one who once enjoyed God’s favor but who rebelled against Jehovah God.

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He's right. The word/name/title "satan" does not appear in the scriptures in Genesis. And just because it says "serpent" in Revelation, a question need to be asked. How do we know that both are one and the same?

New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures

*** Rbi8 Genesis 3:1-7 ***
Now the serpent proved to be the most cautious of all the wild beasts of the field that Jehovah God had made. So it began to say to the woman: "Is it really so that God said YOU must not eat from every tree of the garden?" 2 At this the woman said to the serpent: "Of the fruit of the trees of the garden we may eat. 3 But as for [eating] of the fruit of the tree that is in the middle of the garden, God has said, 'YOU must not eat from it, no, YOU must not touch it that YOU do not die.'" 4 At this the serpent said to the woman: "YOU positively will not die. 5 For God knows that in the very day of YOUR eating from it YOUR eyes are bound to be opened and YOU are bound to be like God, KNOWING good and bad."

6 Consequently the woman saw that the tree was good for food and that it was something to be longed for to the eyes, yes, the tree was desirable to look upon. So she began taking of its fruit and eating it. Afterward she gave some also to her husband when with her and he began eating it.

King James Version

REVELATION 12:9
And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

Maize said:

They're assuming Satan is a real being. I don't buy that.

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And I totally agree with you Maize. Satan is symbology, and he is not an actuall spiritual being. He symbolizes narcissism, egoism, selfishness, which is the source and motive behind every human downfall, every sin. If you study the reason why people sin, you will see notice a patturn, and a commonality that makes all sin the same, because the intent makes it the same. The bible even states that ALL sin is the same in God's eyes. He looks not at the work, but at the MOTIVES.

Satan in hebrew is literally translated "Adversary", or enemy. I consider the greatest enemy to be yourself, your personal "demons", which are caused first by illusions (self-deception) "darkness", second by desire (physical and emotional reaction), third by ignorance (lack of knowledge). In essence these are what makes up the ego/selfishness (wrathful wisdom).

19) The first form is darkness, the second desire, the third ignorance, the fourth is the excitement of death, the fifth is the kingdom of the flesh, the sixth is the foolish wisdom of flesh, the seventh is the wrathful wisdom. These are the seven powers of wrath. --From the non-canonical Gospel of Mary

(1) Darkness ---> (4) Excitement of death,
(2) desire ------> (5) the kingdom of the flesh,
(3) ignorance --> (6) foolish wisdom of the flesh
(7) wrathful wisdom

It is said that the Ego began in the spiritual realm, causing spiritual beings to fall from heaven and become manifest in physical bodies. WE are spiritual beings that fell from heaven. However, it is desire and ignorance that binds us to the physical. Satan is also translated into "bound forever"

Our purpose here is to cleanse ourselves from the "enemy", or rather this ego (Satan), reverse the "fall" to earth and "ascend" into heaven (figuratively speaking).

It was these spiritual beings that were created good, In the image of God.
Mystical teachings say we are all pieces of God, who "split himself into many pieces", as He created primordial points.

However we took on the sinful nature as we became manifest in physical bodies because of this ego.

Let me reveal to you secret teachings...

Adam and Eve is metaphor, and represents the masculine (projective) and feminine (receptive) parts of the Human psyche that were split into two. It was Eve who gave the "forbidden fruit" to Adam. Eve (Chavvah), means "life" and it represents the soul and is manifested into the heart, the receptive part of our psyche which consists of memories. Adam (Adam/Adamah) means "red earth", is PLURAL meaning mankind, and represents the mind which manifested into the physical body.

It is our souls, being ignorant and without knowledge, absorbed the ego and gave it to the mind. Resulting in Death, or rather spiritual death (spirituality is about connection), that we become disconnected with God, and the rest of each other (we are pieces of God), and thus be expelled from the Garden of Eden which is translated "enclosure of pleausure" which was planted eastward, the hebrew word is also translated as "ancient, beginning" (as the sun rises in the east). This garden of Eden metaphorically represents the primordial state of creation that was without suffering, when mankind was in total union with God and each other.

So basically Oracle, you are saying that Satan is a state of mind, that creates us to act out the sin within us?

SoulTYPE01 said:

So basically Oracle, you are saying that Satan is a state of mind, that creates us to act out the sin within us?

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EXACTLY!

SoulTYPE01,

I'm going to cite most of this from memory. Partially because I don't have a library near me that has anything on what I'll be talking about (If I say "I Enoch" or "Zarathustra" I always get a "Huh?!?" from people).

Way back when the Israelites were in exile, they dealt with the Persians. The Persians were dualists with Ahura Mazda on one side and another deity named Daihak (Don't quote me on the spelling). One of Daihak's minions was one called Satan. This dualism carried over into Hebrew literature (and with it things like full-fledged apocalyptic literature), and with the dualism, Satan carried through.

Now, while there is an abundance of material that uses Satan as a generic "accuser," they also began using it for a specific entity. For instance, you find reference to "ministers of Satan" in I Enoch side by side with references to all the evil angels as "satans" (I think I've seen it rendered "impious angels"). As a side note, this book is foundational for the NT and is quoted as a prophecy of God in Jude.

Another formative detail is the LXX. Not only does it translate "Satan" quite often as "Satanas," but it also translates it in a few places as "diabolos." Take the LXX Job 1.6 (my translation), which says "And so, there was this day, and behold the angels [messengers] of God appeared before the Lord, and the devil [slanderer] came with them." I fudged a little on that first construction, but the LXX is not exactly standard Koini Greek (and I wouldn't quote Brenton...I'd rather pluck out my eyes with hot pokers than subject myself, or anyone else, to that).

What is significant here, is not that the word "devil" is found here, but what it means (a meaning now lost). They translated it as "slanderer." This means that the Jewish person/individuals responsible for the LXX didn't see "Satan" there as just an office, but as someone actively passing the office of an accuser into a slanderer.

Naturally, the NT uses the same language and intent with the Adversary. It is indebted to the Jewish translators of the LXX (and the LXX is a Jewish book), books like I Enoch, and through them some of the ideas of Zoroastrianism.

So the picture I get from this is that Christians inherited a concept of Satan as a being who had an office, but in his turn perverted it. This part is taken to heart by Christians, but not the former generic adversary sense.

As for the fellow you heard, I think he's a loon. After all, if we take seriously that the Adversary is old, wise, and powerful, I doubt that we could categorize his methods and whatnot as easily as that fellow seems to have done (and I've heard that teaching before).

Perhaps we are the "fallen angels" that fell to earth because of Satan (ego), and God is trying to cleanse us. That was an old theory of mine. However I'm not sure whether that is consitent with other parts of scripture. It was just a thought that popped into my head.

Also I would consider Satan as a "defect", or rather "Birth pangs" of creation. Man is not perfect because God is not finished creating us.

No*s said:

As for the fellow you heard, I think he's a loon..

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Which loon is that?

SoulTYPE01 said:

Which loon is that?

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The one that you quoted in the first post, who detailed how Satan "attacks," and so on.

What significance does the bible Satan have upon these emotions?

oracle said:

Perhaps we are the "fallen angels" that fell to earth because of Satan (ego), and God is trying to cleanse us. That was an old theory of mine. However I'm not sure whether that is consitent with other parts of scripture. It was just a thought that popped into my head.

Also I would consider Satan as a "defect", or rather "Birth pangs" of creation. Man is not perfect because God is not finished creating us.

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I don't think I'd believe it quite that way, but I do so on the basis of what I have been taught. You obviously do not accept the same beliefs, and I've been known to use quite a bit of allegorical interpretation myself (a long, well-respected, and ancient practice).

Here's my question: Why should we separate the existence of Satan from a symbolic interpretation?

While I cannot subscribe to the second paragraph, on account of my theology, but with your first paragraph, I'd be more than happy to use the fallen angels as an allegory to human pride, the Fall, and so on, and all at the same time hold to literal fallen angels.

pile of crap (Lucifer) malodor of the pile of crap (Satan)