The Trinity: Was Athanasius Scripturally Right?

Hockeycowboy said:

But Jehovah is the English form.

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It's tetragrammaton with vowels added (like Jahweh but different variation).

URAVIP2ME said:

I find the pre-human heavenly Jesus is the Jesus that his God sent from heaven to Earth for us.
So, when his God resurrected the dead Jesus out of the grave ( Acts 2:27) then Jesus had his previous heavenly body back.
This is why the resurrected Jesus had to use different materialized bodies to appear to his followers.

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Yes, Jesus is said to appear in the resurrected body. All humans who resurrect will have a "spiritual body" just like Jesus.

SLPCCC said:

You have to ask a Catholic.

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So since you are not a Catholic, but seem to be an expert on religious matters, regardless -- since this is a thread about something connected with the Trinity doctrine, did Mary give birth to the 2nd person of the Trinity in human form? (But, of course, not the 1st or 3rd persons?)

PearlSeeker said:

Yes, Jesus is said to appear in the resurrected body. All humans who resurrect will have a "spiritual body" just like Jesus.

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Just so I understand you correctly, are you saying that means all humans will be able to float in the air and rise heavenward, looking more or less like they did before the resurrection (in human body types) as Jesus did?

SLPCCC said:

There's a lot of things your religion follows that's not in the scriptures. For example,

In Acts 1:8 it says, But ye shall receive power, when the Holy Spirit has come upon you: and ye shall be my [Jesus'] witnesses both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea and Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

Why aren't you called Jesus Witnesses instead of Jehovah's Witnesses? The name Jehovah is man-made and Jesus said you will be my witnesses (Jesus'), not Jehovah's Witnesses. In just this point right here you are not following scripture but you are calling the others pagan.

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"Jehovah" is the accepted English translation of the divine name. If you change the name to something like it may have been pronounced in Hebrew, the best you can do is guess the pronunciation anyway. A transliteration is no closer if you don't know how it was originally said.
Then you'd have to change every "J" name in the Bible because the majority of them incorporate the divine name as well. God speaks all languages.

Did you realize that Jesus is called "the Faithful and True Witness" in Revelation 3:14?...as well as being described as the "beginning of God's creation".

Did you know that Jehovah's Witnesses take their name from Isaiah 43:10? We are Jehovah's Witnesses just as Jesus was. Being witnesses of Jesus means spreading his teachings in all the earth. No one can lay claim to giving a greater "witness" in the world than we have for the over 100 years.

Jesus said that the "good news of the Kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations" before he brings an "end" to this sad and sorry world. (Matthew 24:14)

When I was a church-goer I had no idea what God's Kingdom was, even though I prayed for it to "come" every week. And since the good news is about God's Kingdom.....can you tell me what it is in your understanding... (with scripture please).

PearlSeeker said:

It's tetragrammaton with vowels added (like Jahweh but different variation).

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Jesus in Spanish is not said like Jesus in English.

SLPCCC said:

Maybe we should start a new thread. Let's call it, "Jehovah's Witnesses: Do They Really Follow the Bible?" How about guys. You start it. Or you want me to start it?

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Again...since you are adamant in saying Jehovah's Witnesses are wrong, how about infant baptism? Does your religion practice that, even though you're not Catholic? If not, what is the scriptural reasons behind that? Thank you.

SLPCCC said:

The First Person of the Trinity is Called Father, Not Jehovah ​

Premise 1: If Jesus and the apostles thought it important to use the name Jehovah in religious communication, the Gospels and the other apostolic writings in the New Testament would have used the name Jehovah.

Premise 2: The Gospels and the other apostolic writings in the New Testament did not use the name Jehovah (as evident from the thousands of Greek New Testament manuscripts that are extant, not one of whichever uses the name Jehovah).​

Therefore,​

Conclusion: Jesus and the apostles did not think it important to use the name Jehovah in religious communication.​

​

The evidence shows that neither Jesus nor the apostles made regular use of the name Jehovah in their religious speech. Whenever Jesus talked about God’s “name,” that name is always Father, not Jehovah.

In the model prayer that Jesus taught his disciples to pray notice how that prayer begins in both Matthew and Luke:

“Our Father in the heavens, let your name be sanctified” (Matt. 6:9)
“Father, let your name be sanctified” (Luke 11:2)

Notice that Jesus did not teach his disciples to address the Father in prayer as “Jehovah God,” as Jehovah’s Witnesses routinely do, but simply as “Father” or “our Father.” Jesus refers to the “Father” ten times in the immediate context of the Prayer in Matthew 6:1-18 and three times in Luke 11:1-13. The Father is not called “God” or “Lord” even once in either of these passages. If context means anything, the name that Jesus wants his disciples to use and for the honor of which they are to pray is the name Father.

In John 5:43, Jesus stated, “I have come in the name of my Father”. Here again, Jesus does not use the name Jehovah at all. Jesus refers to the “Father” five times in the immediate context (John 5:36-45), never to Jehovah, though he does refer to “God” twice in this passage (5:42, 44).

The evidence is overwhelming that the “name” that Jesus revealed to his disciples was not Jehovah but the name Father. Jews occasionally referred to God as Father before Jesus came, but Jesus was unique in making this practice central to the faith life of his disciples. In none of the Gospels does Jesus ever express any concern or expectation that his disciples will use the divine name.

The name that was the focus of the apostles’ preaching and teaching was the name Jesus, not the name Jehovah. The name of Jesus is in fact the dominant focus of the preaching and teaching of the apostles throughout the Book of Acts. There are 28 distinct references to Jesus’ “name” in Acts (2:38; 3:6, 16; 4:7, 10, 12, 17, 18, 30; 5:28, 40, 41; 8:12, 16; 9:15, 16, 27, 28 [29 KJV]; 10:43, 48; 15:26; 16:18; 19:5, 13, 17; 21:13; 22:16; 26:9).

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Surely you know that the name of God in the Hebrew scriptures when Jesus was on the earth with the Jews was not Jesus, isn't that right? In fact, they never said Jesus as it is spelled in English anyway.

SLPCCC said:

Acts 5: 1-4 - But a certain man named Ananias, with Sapphira his wife, sold a possession, and kept back [part] of the price, his wife also being privy to it, and brought a certain part, and laid it at the apostles' feet. But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thy heart to lie to the Holy Spirit, and to keep back [part] of the price of the land? While it remained, did it not remain thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thy power? How is it that thou hast conceived this thing in thy heart? thou has not lied unto men, but unto God.

The Holy Spirit is the 3rd Person. It can be lied to.

• The Holy Spirit can be lied to - Acts 5: 1-4 , "why hath Satan filled thy heart to lie to the Holy Spirit
• The Holy Spirit grieves like a person - Isaiah 63:10, "But they rebelled and grieved His Holy Spirit. Therefore, He turned Himself to become their enemy, He fought against them."
  
• The Holy Spirit loves like a person - Rom. 15:30, "Now I urge you, brethren, by our Lord Jesus Christ and by the love of the Spirit, to strive together with me in your prayers to God for me."
  
• The Holy Spirit has a mind - Rom. 8:27, "and He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He intercedes for the saints according to the will of God."
  
• The Holy Spirit speaks - Acts 8:29, "And the Spirit said to Philip, "Go up and join this chariot."
  
• The Holy Spirit helps/comforts - But when the Comforter comes, whom I will send unto you from the Father, [even] the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall bear witness of me:

The Holy Spirit is not some force as Arius claimed. It should be very obvious that the Holy Spirit has self-identity, is aware, and is not merely a force because a force doesn't speak, love, grieve, and have a mind.

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So you believe the holy spirit is the third person of God?

YoursTrue said:

So did you learn in seminary that it's a fairytale that Jesus was a carpenter? Or is that a concept you figured somehow? Certainly not that I haven't reckoned that the churches basically since Constantine's time considered it proper to fight to the death against others of the same faith to support their country. I am grateful to the Almighty God and His Son Jesus that God showed me the way because I didn't always think this way. God saved me.through Jesus Christ, my Lord. Thank God for that.

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Oh, yes! Thank God that you’re so much better than the rest of us! “Thank God I’m not like that dirty publican! Thank God I’m righteous and don’t have to deal with the mess of humanity.” I seem to remember that Jesus has something to say about the “holier than thou” attitude.

Hockeycowboy said:

From those who kill their brothers, and those who don’t.
That’s one of the biggest ways! Maybe even THE biggest.

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Huh. More hubris. "Gee! I sure am grateful that I'm not like that dirty publican!" Sound familiar? Your ilk uses this weak and contrived "purer than thou" claptrap as an "indicator" of purity in posts all the time. According to the bible, it does not endear you to Jesus.

YoursTrue said:

There are many different religions in the world. Some have billions of adherents. Would you say they're all right,

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Yes.

YoursTrue said:

I can say what I believe, and that about God and Jesus Christ. And the holy spirit. And what happens after death.

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Yes you can. But that doesn't make it true; it just makes it an uninformed opinion. Yet you state it as fact.

YoursTrue said:

OK, so you're not Catholic. Thanks for clarifying. Yet what does your faith, or church teach about Mary? What do you believe? Was she sinless if you believe she is the "Mother of God," the 2nd person of the Trinity?

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The catechism doesn't teach that Mary was sinless. The Immaculate Conception is a long-held dogma of the Church that was codified in 1854 by Pope Pius IX, as an ex cathedra teaching. It states only that Mary was free from original sin at her conception. It does not state that she was "sinless." Please do your research before you bray out against something you know nothing about.

Hockeycowboy said:

You see, Yahweh is Hebrew. Our brothers in Israel, who speak Hebrew, call Him Yahweh.
But Jehovah is the English form.

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Yeah, no. It's a mushing together of YHWH and Elohim by European scholars, actually coming from the German.

sojourner said:

Oh, yes! Thank God that you’re so much better than the rest of us! “Thank God I’m not like that dirty publican! Thank God I’m righteous and don’t have to deal with the mess of humanity.” I seem to remember that Jesus has something to say about the “holier than thou” attitude.

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sojourner said:

Oh, yes! Thank God that you’re so much better than the rest of us! “Thank God I’m not like that dirty publican! Thank God I’m righteous and don’t have to deal with the mess of humanity.” I seem to remember that Jesus has something to say about the “holier than thou” attitude.

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I never said that. I did not always believe in God. Now, however, I understand better that Jesus led the way. Sorry you feel that way. Perhaps in time you will feel differently about following and loving Jesus.

sojourner said:

Yeah, no. It's a mushing together of YHWH and Elohim by European scholars, actually coming from the German.

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May I ask how you refer to the name of the Son? Some people call him Yeshua, but many say Jesus.

sojourner said:

The catechism doesn't teach that Mary was sinless. The Immaculate Conception is a long-held dogma of the Church that was codified in 1854 by Pope Pius IX, as an ex cathedra teaching. It states only that Mary was free from original sin at her conception. It does not state that she was "sinless." Please do your research before you bray out against something you know nothing about.

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"Free from original sin." Do you believe that?

sojourner said:

The catechism doesn't teach that Mary was sinless. The Immaculate Conception is a long-held dogma of the Church that was codified in 1854 by Pope Pius IX, as an ex cathedra teaching. It states only that Mary was free from original sin at her conception. It does not state that she was "sinless." Please do your research before you bray out against something you know nothing about.

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So do you believe that Mary was sinless? Do you believe she died or do you believe she went straight to heaven in bodily flesh while she was alive?

sojourner said:

The catechism doesn't teach that Mary was sinless. The Immaculate Conception is a long-held dogma of the Church that was codified in 1854 by Pope Pius IX, as an ex cathedra teaching. It states only that Mary was free from original sin at her conception. It does not state that she was "sinless." Please do your research before you bray out against something you know nothing about.

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Since it's ex cathedra, do you think it's true that Mary was free from original sin at her conception?

@sojourner, I said in a previous post, "There are many different religions in the world. Some have billions of adherents. Would you say they're all right," And you answered, "Yes."
Thank you for your answer.