The Trinity: Was Athanasius Scripturally Right?

YoursTrue · Jun 10, 2020

Hockeycowboy said:
The Bible clearly states that, ‘as animals die, so people die’... and “they all have but one spirit.”
— Ecclesiastes 3:19-20.

This ties in with the way Jehovah told Adam about death....He told Adam, ‘You eat from that tree, you’re going to die.’

HE DIDNT EXPLAIN ANYTHING ELSE ABOUT DEATH.....because there IS nothing more to it.
The ONLY difference, is that most humans who ever lived will be resurrected in the future. John 6:44

Yes, true. God never told Adam that when you eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil you will die and go to heaven or hell. Adam KNEW what death was. He didn't wonder, thinking maybe it was a new place to live in.

URAVIP2ME · Jun 10, 2020

YoursTrue said:
Jesus said he is one with the Father. He also said the Father is greater than he is.

Jesus also prayed his followers be one just as he and his Father are one at John 17:11; John 17:21-23.
So, to me Jesus was praying we be ' one ' ( but Not one person ) but one in belief, purpose, goal, insight, agreement, will, harmony, unity, objective, etc.

URAVIP2ME · Jun 10, 2020

PearlSeeker said:
Jesus IS (still) human (not just on earth). So Father is grater forever.

I find the pre-human heavenly Jesus is the Jesus that his God sent from heaven to Earth for us.
So, when his God resurrected the dead Jesus out of the grave ( Acts 2:27) then Jesus had his previous heavenly body back.
This is why the resurrected Jesus had to use different materialized bodies to appear to his followers.

YoursTrue · Jun 10, 2020

SLPCCC said:
I think it's a lot of hubris to say that all the Christian religions are wrong but only yours is right. In your signature, you have, "Let him who thinks he is standing beware that he does not fall" 1 Corinthians 10:12. Suppose, just suppose, that your religion is the one that is wrong. How would you know?

There are many different religions in the world. Some have billions of adherents. Would you say they're all right, or perhaps God shrugs his shoulders and say, "well, don't worry, they'll come to heaven anyway, it doesn't matter." What do you think? Can I say who is saved or not saved? No, I cannot. But I can say what I believe, and that about God and Jesus Christ. And the holy spirit. And what happens after death.

YoursTrue · Jun 10, 2020

URAVIP2ME said:
Jesus also prayed his followers be one just as he and his Father are one at John 17:11; John 17:21-23.
So, to me Jesus was praying we be ' one ' ( but Not one person ) but one in belief, purpose, goal, insight, agreement, will, harmony, unity, objective, etc.

Precisely.

URAVIP2ME · Jun 10, 2020

SLPCCC said:
We can see that the Jehovah's Witnesses' belief in Jesus is from Arian. They are neo-Arianist. I'm not bashing. I just pointing it out................................

I find Arius taught that God is Unbegotten and without a beginning.
The Son, because he is begotten can Not be God in the sense that the Father is.
The Son did Not exist from all eternity but was created and exists by the will of the Father.

Psalms 90:2 lets us know God is from everlasting.... ( without a beginning )
The Son is God's only begotten Son. ( Son had a beginning )
Yes, the Son did Not exist from all eternity but was the beginning of the creation by God as per Revelation 3:14.
So, only God was ' before ' the beginning, and Jesus was ' In' the beginning, but Never ' before ' the beginning as his God was ' before' the beginning.

URAVIP2ME · Jun 10, 2020

YoursTrue said:
There are many different religions in the world. Some have billions of adherents. Would you say they're all right, or perhaps God shrugs his shoulders and say, "well, don't worry, they'll come to heaven anyway, it doesn't matter." What do you think? Can I say who is saved or not saved? No, I cannot. But I can say what I believe, and that about God and Jesus Christ. And the holy spirit. And what happens after death.

I find Jehovah's Witnesses do Not teach everyone that ' they'll come to heaven anyway...' because Jesus taught humble meek people will inherit the Earth.
Jesus as referring to Psalms 37:9-11 at Matthew 5:5.
Whether called to heaven by God or called to inherit the Earth, Jesus stressed about being ' saved ' at Matthew 24:13
The one who endures to the end is saved ( delivered/ rescued ) .
Endure faithful to death or be found faithful alive at the soon coming ' time of separation ' on Earth as per Matthew 25:31-33,37.40.

YoursTrue · Jun 10, 2020

URAVIP2ME said:
I find Jehovah's Witnesses do Not teach everyone that ' they'll come to heaven anyway...' because Jesus taught humble meek people will inherit the Earth.
Jesus as referring to Psalms 37:9-11 at Matthew 5:5.
Whether called to heaven by God or called to inherit the Earth, Jesus stressed about being ' saved ' at Matthew 24:13
The one who endures to the end is saved ( delivered/ rescued ) .
Endure faithful to death or be found faithful alive at the soon coming ' time of separation ' on Earth as per Matthew 25:31-33,37.40.

I was really replying to SLPCCC about the belief as to (1) what salvation is, and (2) what he believes the future holds for those that do not believe the same way, since there are varying beliefs about who goes to heaven and why, or even IF a person goes to heaven (maybe they transmigrate souls, and the like), also what does SLPCCC think will happen to all those that do not believe the Bible as he does.
I agree with the scriptures and the applications you bring out above. The earth is finally going to be peaceful, without end, as you point out in the scriptures you quote. Thank you.

SLPCCC · Jun 10, 2020

Deeje said:
From the pagan inspired doctrines that we cleaned out....I am absolutely certain that the church I was raised in was nothing even close to what Jesus started.

So you can just suppose that the "many" are on the right road if you wish.....I will choose the road less traveled.

There's a lot of things your religion follows that's not in the scriptures. For example,

In Acts 1:8 it says, But ye shall receive power, when the Holy Spirit has come upon you: and ye shall be my [Jesus'] witnesses both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea and Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

Why aren't you called Jesus Witnesses instead of Jehovah's Witnesses? The name Jehovah is man-made and Jesus said you will be my witnesses (Jesus'), not Jehovah's Witnesses. In just this point right here you are not following scripture but you are calling the others pagan.

SLPCCC · Jun 10, 2020

YoursTrue said:
I was just reading the Catholic Catechism and came across the teaching about the Trinity, then I turned to Mary as being without sin. They made that up. So do you believe Mary was the "mother of God," and therefore did not inherit any sin from her forebearers in her DNA?

You have to ask a Catholic.

SLPCCC · Jun 10, 2020

YoursTrue said:
I was really replying to SLPCCC about the belief as to (1) what salvation is, and (2) what he believes the future holds for those that do not believe the same way, since there are varying beliefs about who goes to heaven and why, or even IF a person goes to heaven (maybe they transmigrate souls, and the like), also what does SLPCCC think will happen to all those that do not believe the Bible as he does.
I agree with the scriptures and the applications you bring out above. The earth is finally going to be peaceful, without end, as you point out in the scriptures you quote. Thank you.

Maybe we should start a new thread. Let's call it, "Jehovah's Witnesses: Do They Really Follow the Bible?" How about guys. You start it. Or you want me to start it?

URAVIP2ME · Jun 10, 2020

YoursTrue said:
I agree with the scriptures and the applications you bring out above. The earth is finally going to be peaceful, without end, as you point out in the scriptures you quote. Thank you.

You are welcome, and as promised at Jeremiah 29:11 there is a future, a peace-filled future as mentioned at Ezekiel 34:25; Isaiah 11:6-9.
So, in these troubled times we need to focus on what God has promised is coming, including the ' healing ' for earth's nations - Revelation 22:2; Isaiah 25:8.

URAVIP2ME · Jun 10, 2020

SLPCCC said:
Maybe we should start a new thread. Let's call it, "Jehovah's Witnesses: Do They Really Follow the Bible?" How about guys. You start it. Or you want me to start it?

No need to start a thread but just see what it says at www.jw.org

YoursTrue · Jun 10, 2020

SLPCCC said:
You have to ask a Catholic.

OK, so you're not Catholic. Thanks for clarifying. Yet what does your faith, or church teach about Mary? What do you believe? Was she sinless if you believe she is the "Mother of God," the 2nd person of the Trinity?

YoursTrue · Jun 10, 2020

SLPCCC said:
Maybe we should start a new thread. Let's call it, "Jehovah's Witnesses: Do They Really Follow the Bible?" How about guys. You start it. Or you want me to start it?

You also might ask, Who Really Follows the Bible? and connected with that might be, Does it Matter to God Who Follows the Bible?

SLPCCC · Jun 10, 2020

URAVIP2ME said:
I find the name of God in acceptable English in the King James version at Psalms 83:18.
Douay version uses the Hebrew Yahweh
God's name comes from the Tetragrammaton. (YHWH )
There are two (2) LORD/Lord's mentioned at Psalms 110.
The LORD in ALL Upper-Case letters stand fro LORD God ( Tetragrammaton YHWH )
The other Lord ( in some lower-case letters ) stands for Lord Jesus.
- www.jw.org

That doesn't change the fact that "Jehovah" is man-made. What not just leave it with YHWH or Yaweh?

firedragon · Jun 10, 2020

SLPCCC said:
That doesn't change the fact that "Jehovah" is man-made. What not just leave it with YHWH or Yaweh?

In that case mate, John is man-made. So are all names starting with a J and that includes Jesus.

Its silly to get lost in the pronunciation of a name.

Hockeycowboy · Jun 10, 2020

SLPCCC said:
What not just leave it with YHWH or Yaweh?

So you are OK w/ Yahweh? Well that’s good! We are too.
But here, we don’t speak Hebrew; we speak English.

You see, Yahweh is Hebrew. Our brothers in Israel, who speak Hebrew, call Him Yahweh.
But Jehovah is the English form.

Jesus is the English form of Iēsoûs in Greek, Yeshua (Joshua) in Hebrew.

PearlSeeker · Jun 10, 2020

SLPCCC said:
His position was lower than God the Father's, thus His Father was “greater” than He. The word greater denotes a difference in rank or position

Look here: Subordinationism - Wikipedia

SLPCCC · Jun 11, 2020

Hockeycowboy said:
So you are OK w/ Yahweh? Well that’s good! We are too.
But here, we don’t speak Hebrew; we speak English.

You see, Yahweh is Hebrew. Our brothers in Israel, who speak Hebrew, call Him Yahweh.
But Jehovah is the English form.

Jesus is the English form of Iēsoûs in Greek, Yeshua (Joshua) in Hebrew.

The First Person of the Trinity is Called Father, Not Jehovah

Premise 1: If Jesus and the apostles thought it important to use the name Jehovah in religious communication, the Gospels and the other apostolic writings in the New Testament would have used the name Jehovah.

Premise 2: The Gospels and the other apostolic writings in the New Testament did not use the name Jehovah (as evident from the thousands of Greek New Testament manuscripts that are extant, not one of whichever uses the name Jehovah).

Therefore,

Conclusion: Jesus and the apostles did not think it important to use the name Jehovah in religious communication.

The evidence shows that neither Jesus nor the apostles made regular use of the name Jehovah in their religious speech. Whenever Jesus talked about God’s “name,” that name is always Father, not Jehovah.

In the model prayer that Jesus taught his disciples to pray notice how that prayer begins in both Matthew and Luke:

“Our Father in the heavens, let your name be sanctified” (Matt. 6:9)
“Father, let your name be sanctified” (Luke 11:2)

Notice that Jesus did not teach his disciples to address the Father in prayer as “Jehovah God,” as Jehovah’s Witnesses routinely do, but simply as “Father” or “our Father.” Jesus refers to the “Father” ten times in the immediate context of the Prayer in Matthew 6:1-18 and three times in Luke 11:1-13. The Father is not called “God” or “Lord” even once in either of these passages. If context means anything, the name that Jesus wants his disciples to use and for the honor of which they are to pray is the name Father.

In John 5:43, Jesus stated, “I have come in the name of my Father”. Here again, Jesus does not use the name Jehovah at all. Jesus refers to the “Father” five times in the immediate context (John 5:36-45), never to Jehovah, though he does refer to “God” twice in this passage (5:42, 44).

The evidence is overwhelming that the “name” that Jesus revealed to his disciples was not Jehovah but the name Father. Jews occasionally referred to God as Father before Jesus came, but Jesus was unique in making this practice central to the faith life of his disciples. In none of the Gospels does Jesus ever express any concern or expectation that his disciples will use the divine name.

The name that was the focus of the apostles’ preaching and teaching was the name Jesus, not the name Jehovah. The name of Jesus is in fact the dominant focus of the preaching and teaching of the apostles throughout the Book of Acts. There are 28 distinct references to Jesus’ “name” in Acts (2:38; 3:6, 16; 4:7, 10, 12, 17, 18, 30; 5:28, 40, 41; 8:12, 16; 9:15, 16, 27, 28 [29 KJV]; 10:43, 48; 15:26; 16:18; 19:5, 13, 17; 21:13; 22:16; 26:9).

The Trinity: Was Athanasius Scripturally Right?

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