It takes a lot of reasoning to accept miracles.

If a Messenger comes out in the open, he has to perform miracles. It's not only to prove himself that this is necessary, it's that, you can't take his claims seriously if he doesn't.

The reason is quite simple. Messengers are not just any human, but the human tasked to rule humanity and Jinn, and that is not through blind following, but from connecting them to the light through proofs, insights, a book from God but also by their position as the light of God in this world.

If Moses and Jesus are the image of God and word of light brought to life they claim, they have to perform miracles.

It's easy to prove they would be false if they don't. What is harder, is to prove, they would proven, if they perform miracles.

Let me repeat this:

(M) Miracles performed
(T) Prophets are true.

If not M, then not T. Is easy to prove "If no miracles performed, the Prophets are false". The counter-positive is "If T, M"

If Prophets are true to their claim, they will perform miracles.

What is hard, is once, they show miracles, is the inverse:

"If miracles are performed, the Prophets are true".

The counter positive is is:

"If Prophets are false, they won't perform miracles"

Now the fact is the same logic for "If no miracles performed, the Prophets are false", if you ask why, the same exact reason would "If are Prophets are false, they won't perform miracles", and here even though it's counter positive to different statements that appear to be different when stated, it's almost if not the same fact.

Therefore we can see "If Prophets are true, they will perform miracles" implies "If they will perform miracles, they are true".

There is no reason you can come up with for one and not the other. It becomes vividly clear when we say the same sentences in counter-positive way.

But intuitively the only reason as well, that Prophets have to perform miracles to show they are true, is because it's a proof that they are true. There is no reason you can come up with other then that.

And ultimately it's because they are claiming to be trustees and keeping in might the world of magic, they have to be the cure for it the light the white magicians who know how to heal humanity out of the true life force of God, which is not like illusionary magic of dark forces.

So while dark magic can't create a fly, Jesus (a) for example, can create a bird and blow a spirit into clay and make cells and everything that forms a bird, and this is by God's permission, and easy for Jesus (a).

The power they have so immense that we find ourselves lost regarding them, if you forget God, they would be gods, but remembering God and they are but servants of him and worshipers of God and aren't even a iota of anything compared to him, but when forget God and were to look at them, it as the saying goes "put your net down, you can't catch the phoenix".

So what input are you looking for with this thread?

Not sure, but people usually think if miracles are shown, people will accept them. The way people are irrational they will say you doing sorcery and it's not proof. I'm saying it takes reasoning which includes accept unity of God and some degree that he is a reasonable being and still King of humans, even though we turn away from him and his guidance, to take miracles seriously.

A lot of people assert, it's unrealistic people reject Prophets (a) when miracles are shown. I've heard from Atheists - that Quranic description of humans being stubborn towards miracles is irrational.

But humans tend to go all suspect mode and think of them as evil deceiving sorcerers, trying to take control of them through their acquired powers.

I'm saying, no one should make a demand miracles proving them false if they don't do it unless they realize it's also a proof for them if they do it.

And what is funny, I've debated Atheists on this issue as well, and they don't think it proves either God as in the Ultimate being type or the Prophet (most of them). And in a way ,they are right. By themselves, they are insufficient. But with explanation of the light and path, and reminder of it, and God's power and the nature of sorcery and the nature of the truth (true power and magic of God), then miracles do become effective means.

And in the start, they are just meant to cause people to fear enough to take the Prophets (a) seriously. And eventually with reasoning, they become reminders of the power given by God to his words brought to life, and that they are to be relied on to dispel the false magic, the jibt, and to turn away from the false idol or the body of false idols known as the Taghut.

The following is just me rattling along;

I honestly don't think that a prophet would want recognition like that, sure it will probably end up happening but doing some fancy trick for recognition sounds like bad taste.
I prefer when people for example say i am something rather than me touting "here i am, i am this, i am that".
Look at how many people believe they are the Virgin Mary re-incarnate, so many people talk talk talk about it. Many even try to 'prove' they are with such attachment to 'what was' without dedication to this current life. What i would find beautiful is if someone was just trying to live there life the best they could and people recognised them as maybe the re-incarnate.
I prefer the infamous then the famous.

John 6:15
"Jesus, knowing that they intended to come and make him king by force, withdrew again to a mountain by himself."

The Demand for a Sign
(Mark 8:11-13; Luke 12:54-56)

1Then the Pharisees and Sadducees came and tested Jesus by asking Him to show them a sign from heaven.2But He replied, “When evening comes, you say, ‘The weather will be fair, for the sky is red,’ 3and in the morning, ‘Today it will be stormy, for the sky is red and overcast.’ You know how to interpret the appearance of the sky, but not the signs of the times.a 4A wicked and adulterous generation demands a sign, but none will be given it except the sign of Jonah.” Then He left them and went away.

I think i meant notorious not infamous, lol, idk?

Like known through the whisper of many not the should from their own mouth, yknow?

Link said:

If a Messenger comes out in the open, he has to perform miracles. It's not only to prove himself that this is necessary, it's that, you can't take his claims seriously if he doesn't.

The reason is quite simple. Messengers are not just any human, but the human tasked to rule humanity and Jinn, and that is not through blind following, but from connecting them to the light through proofs, insights, a book from God but also by their position as the light of God in this world.

If Moses and Jesus are the image of God and word of light brought to life they claim, they have to perform miracles.

It's easy to prove they would be false if they don't. What is harder, is to prove, they would proven, if they perform miracles.

Let me repeat this:

(M) Miracles performed
(T) Prophets are true.

If not M, then not T. Is easy to prove "If no miracles performed, the Prophets are false". The counter-positive is "If T, M"

If Prophets are true to their claim, they will perform miracles.

What is hard, is once, they show miracles, is the inverse:

"If miracles are performed, the Prophets are true".

The counter positive is is:

"If Prophets are false, they won't perform miracles"

Now the fact is the same logic for "If no miracles performed, the Prophets are false", if you ask why, the same exact reason would "If are Prophets are false, they won't perform miracles", and here even though it's counter positive to different statements that appear to be different when stated, it's almost if not the same fact.

Therefore we can see "If Prophets are true, they will perform miracles" implies "If they will perform miracles, they are true".

There is no reason you can come up with for one and not the other. It becomes vividly clear when we say the same sentences in counter-positive way.

But intuitively the only reason as well, that Prophets have to perform miracles to show they are true, is because it's a proof that they are true. There is no reason you can come up with other then that.

And ultimately it's because they are claiming to be trustees and keeping in might the world of magic, they have to be the cure for it the light the white magicians who know how to heal humanity out of the true life force of God, which is not like illusionary magic of dark forces.

So while dark magic can't create a fly, Jesus (a) for example, can create a bird and blow a spirit into clay and make cells and everything that forms a bird, and this is by God's permission, and easy for Jesus (a).

The power they have so immense that we find ourselves lost regarding them, if you forget God, they would be gods, but remembering God and they are but servants of him and worshipers of God and aren't even a iota of anything compared to him, but when forget God and were to look at them, it as the saying goes "put your net down, you can't catch the phoenix".

Click to expand...

How people are supposed to distinguish between a miracle and a black magic? Maybe a person is not really a prophet, but has learned to perform some magics to deceive people. Why do you think this is not possible?

Jesus said as a male adult self, who said I was born a human baby......true reason.

My DNA HOLY LAND, genetic baby life was mutated previously in evil Satanic conversion/nuclear radiation trans mutation of the natural stone body of God the Earth O….as a science, applied by human scientists.

So I told everyone my Father sacrificed my life claiming that they were saving everyone else.

Idea of a miracle...the science technique...not what was occurring to a human.

True Jesus story...I was given radiation lashings/cutting by cooling metal in unnatural radiation changes to the signals. My cellular chemistry altered, and it leaked perfumes out of my body, in a conversion. My blood unnaturally leeched out of it cells.....I was flogged in sa TAN science formulas, causes...the SINS that they formed in the sciences that removed the Holy Tree of Life support.

True reasoning.

Miracle...what science performs as its owned magic...to force change what is natural to obtain what they want...based on human greed/trade..elitism.

Is the BIBLE evil readings?

Yes....heard and proven heard by little children whose life/bodies were being atmospherically irradiated...saw the living proof the spirit image of their Holy Mother dying in life....leaving us.

Retold all of the new HELL information to the scientists.

Reading of the information, interpreted into spiritual meaning by the reader, consciousness, spiritual life. Interpretation depends on the consciousness reading the information.

Human argument against coercive science lying....we were not saved by Jesus dying!

An argument argued for a very long time.

Document reading said...….exactly how it was taught. Life sacrificed was saved to die from early age sacrificed life...since science brought into the atmosphere changed radiation/radio waves belonging to unnatural cosmological stones and metals that Earth never owned itself.

History geological and archaeological finds.....bodies from space that plummeted and penetrated the Earth stone...due to radiation in the Earth mass having opened/unsealed and converted.

Proof of that historically water, that had sealed the origins of Earth in Sun attacked, released water held inside the mass of the rock as evidence that science caused it.

SIN in science, was never the SIN entombed Saints/gases and spirit of the body of fused stone.....science invented its own signals to transmit for science invention/machines which is not in any natural order. Was not copying natural order, for natural order is natural and without science practice.

Science from its owned human applied inception is a liar.

Jesus adult human reasoning in self life presence, was a Father adult male life body...he would not have harmed anyone as that form of human Father...but the sexual Father, the scientist had.

How it is reasoned from a self life experience...the whole time Jesus was expressing his own male spiritual relationships with his own self/human history as a male adult.

Link said:

If a Messenger comes out in the open, he has to perform miracles. It's not only to prove himself that this is necessary, it's that, you can't take his claims seriously if he doesn't.

The reason is quite simple. Messengers are not just any human, but the human tasked to rule humanity and Jinn, and that is not through blind following, but from connecting them to the light through proofs, insights, a book from God but also by their position as the light of God in this world.

If Moses and Jesus are the image of God and word of light brought to life they claim, they have to perform miracles.

It's easy to prove they would be false if they don't. What is harder, is to prove, they would proven, if they perform miracles.

Let me repeat this:

(M) Miracles performed
(T) Prophets are true.

If not M, then not T. Is easy to prove "If no miracles performed, the Prophets are false". The counter-positive is "If T, M"

If Prophets are true to their claim, they will perform miracles.

What is hard, is once, they show miracles, is the inverse:

"If miracles are performed, the Prophets are true".

The counter positive is is:

"If Prophets are false, they won't perform miracles"

Now the fact is the same logic for "If no miracles performed, the Prophets are false", if you ask why, the same exact reason would "If are Prophets are false, they won't perform miracles", and here even though it's counter positive to different statements that appear to be different when stated, it's almost if not the same fact.

Therefore we can see "If Prophets are true, they will perform miracles" implies "If they will perform miracles, they are true".

There is no reason you can come up with for one and not the other. It becomes vividly clear when we say the same sentences in counter-positive way.

But intuitively the only reason as well, that Prophets have to perform miracles to show they are true, is because it's a proof that they are true. There is no reason you can come up with other then that.

And ultimately it's because they are claiming to be trustees and keeping in might the world of magic, they have to be the cure for it the light the white magicians who know how to heal humanity out of the true life force of God, which is not like illusionary magic of dark forces.

So while dark magic can't create a fly, Jesus (a) for example, can create a bird and blow a spirit into clay and make cells and everything that forms a bird, and this is by God's permission, and easy for Jesus (a).

The power they have so immense that we find ourselves lost regarding them, if you forget God, they would be gods, but remembering God and they are but servants of him and worshipers of God and aren't even a iota of anything compared to him, but when forget God and were to look at them, it as the saying goes "put your net down, you can't catch the phoenix".

Click to expand...

so it would seem

but this world is the world of condemnation

I wear a ring of my own making
a cross carved into stainless steel

I wear it to remind me
this world will crucify anyone
even if you CAN walk on water

InvestigateTruth said:

How people are supposed to distinguish between a miracle and a black magic? Maybe a person is not really a prophet, but has learned to perform some magics to deceive people. Why do you think this is not possible?

Click to expand...

agreed

I say.....as I did grow up with this notion
ask a miracle
it matters not of whom you ask
but if you receive the asking …...your soul is forfeit

whether it be heaven.....or hell

Thief said:

agreed

I say.....as I did grow up with this notion
ask a miracle
it matters not of whom you ask
but if you receive the asking …...your soul is forfeit

whether it be heaven.....or hell

Click to expand...

Soul by its heavenly origins is held by the heavenly origins which in science is natural and first O pi......male science mind aware of that subject of his studies.

Natural humans who did not impose science studies do not even think about it.

Gas mass is the soul of God O surrounding the Earth first.

Science used pi O quotes, changed it into atmospheric fall out from pi O into PHI....PHI forced the reference in science to light movement change...into O G from point carbon and light time 3 position....into a spiral, that cooled in falling of gases.....re formed O whole body...then split into 2 losses.

G O D.....O DD/500 evaluation for D = 1000 remained cooled in the upper heavenly mass.....so then a scientist liar said...and so in the IMAGE of God my man/male self was put into the clouds. Which it was. Saved by GOD says the science liar.

D burning gases split from the upper heavenly irradiation dispersion as a UFO attack....fell to the ground, took up our Nature natural water/oxygen and microbial use for cooling of the science caused attack....so we see our deceased self in images.

As the microbial mass carbonised that our bio life cell was using. How you see animals and new human images in the CLOUDS....due to the liar Satanist science having attacked us.

How a human scientist gave self an image in the clouds as a pre living human scientist for causing ground fission....ATTACK of the God body/mass.

As origin story of telling how a human got given an image in the ground fission machine attack of human science on Earth. Why machines can utilise that same reaction in a machine, because in the past a human with a machine caused it.

Today because we own less water mass than before...the water in the stone, holding it sealed...cannot hold it sealed....so sink holes get formed instead.

No crop circle in that causation...as a crop circle was a cooled gas fall out burning event...that removed our use of water.

Why spirit images of animals or humans then appear for it is a science UFO caused abduction of our use of natural water in our natural life.

So GOD O the Earth already proves by opening into sink holes that the ground water mass is no longer present to keep our life safe from UFO spatial attacks.

Science already knew because ICE melted to save us all. Seeing ICE did not exist in the dinosaur life....but was put there to save Earth and dinosaurs died.....is the historic event that all humans should realise today. Science is trying to convert our small bio cell Nature back into the mutant giant cell life.

Trees however in our atmosphere owning a longer life and variation to a cell body existing as FIRST and origin in Nature of life....prove to science why they killed us all before....because we do not live as a TREE...the origin nature, first cells.

Why you caused it as the arrogant liars you all are. Humans are not the first bio cell on earth in Nature....common sense surely will win this argument?

Thief said:

so it would seem

but this world is the world of condemnation

I wear a ring of my own making
a cross carved into stainless steel

I wear it to remind me
this world will crucify anyone
even if you CAN walk on water

Click to expand...

Link said:

If a Messenger comes out in the open, he has to perform miracles. It's not only to prove himself that this is necessary, it's that, you can't take his claims seriously if he doesn't.

Click to expand...

From my personal experience, living for 10 years with the Poorna Avatar Sathya Sai Baba, witnessing many miracle, I learned the following:

Sai Baba said about Divine Miracles:
"They are My visiting cards", meaning it's a gift of Him, not because He has to do this, but because of His Love.

He did not say:
"I have to perform miracles", nor that He cannot be taken seriously without performing miracles (that is human mind creating stuff)

He explicitly said:
"I don't have to prove myself". He even explicitly said in a discourse "It's a form of weakness, if you feel you need to prove yourself. If you know you are right, then that is the truth, why you feel to convince others of this?. If you know you are wrong, just admit it, and don't make the mistake again". Very simple, very true and practical IMO

Link said:

If a Messenger comes out in the open, he has to perform miracles. It's not only to prove himself that this is necessary, it's that, you can't take his claims seriously if he doesn't.

The reason is quite simple. Messengers are not just any human, but the human tasked to rule humanity and Jinn, and that is not through blind following, but from connecting them to the light through proofs, insights, a book from God but also by their position as the light of God in this world.

If Moses and Jesus are the image of God and word of light brought to life they claim, they have to perform miracles.

It's easy to prove they would be false if they don't. What is harder, is to prove, they would proven, if they perform miracles.

Let me repeat this:

(M) Miracles performed
(T) Prophets are true.

If not M, then not T. Is easy to prove "If no miracles performed, the Prophets are false". The counter-positive is "If T, M"

If Prophets are true to their claim, they will perform miracles.

What is hard, is once, they show miracles, is the inverse:

"If miracles are performed, the Prophets are true".

The counter positive is is:

"If Prophets are false, they won't perform miracles"

Now the fact is the same logic for "If no miracles performed, the Prophets are false", if you ask why, the same exact reason would "If are Prophets are false, they won't perform miracles", and here even though it's counter positive to different statements that appear to be different when stated, it's almost if not the same fact.

Therefore we can see "If Prophets are true, they will perform miracles" implies "If they will perform miracles, they are true".

There is no reason you can come up with for one and not the other. It becomes vividly clear when we say the same sentences in counter-positive way.

But intuitively the only reason as well, that Prophets have to perform miracles to show they are true, is because it's a proof that they are true. There is no reason you can come up with other then that.

And ultimately it's because they are claiming to be trustees and keeping in might the world of magic, they have to be the cure for it the light the white magicians who know how to heal humanity out of the true life force of God, which is not like illusionary magic of dark forces.

So while dark magic can't create a fly, Jesus (a) for example, can create a bird and blow a spirit into clay and make cells and everything that forms a bird, and this is by God's permission, and easy for Jesus (a).

The power they have so immense that we find ourselves lost regarding them, if you forget God, they would be gods, but remembering God and they are but servants of him and worshipers of God and aren't even a iota of anything compared to him, but when forget God and were to look at them, it as the saying goes "put your net down, you can't catch the phoenix".

Click to expand...

I see a number of faults in your reasoning.
1. If miracles are the proof of Messengers why do you not accept the miracles of Krishna, Sai Baba and others

2. If miracles are the proof of messengers we would require a constant stream of living Messengers to prove to every living human by their miracles, otherwise at best miracles would only be proof to those who witnessed them. The rest of humanity would have to rely on tales of miracles and tales are easily faked.

3. Even to those who witnessed the miracles they could be dismissed as mere illusion. After all the magician can place clay into an empty hat and make the rabbit appear from it.

InvestigateTruth said:

How people are supposed to distinguish between a miracle and a black magic? Maybe a person is not really a prophet, but has learned to perform some magics to deceive people. Why do you think this is not possible?

Click to expand...

Miracles were for a specific purpose and time. As Messiah, Jesus Christ had to have something more than his words to demonstrate God's power and backing for the new arrangement in the institution of the "new covenant".

God's spirit gave him the ability to perform supernatural fetes. He gained this power at his baptism, and he endowed his apostles with this power by the use of his name, healing the sick, expelling demons, and other manifestations of God's spirit.....and after his ascension to heaven, the holy spirit was poured out on more of his disciples.....giving them also the gift of miracles.
Each of the gifts was a foregleam of what they could expect to see under the rulership of God's Kingdom in the hands of his Christ.....healing of the sick, raising of the dead, speaking languages they had never learned.....and a much closer relationship to God.

But the miracles were not to last longer than the apostolic period because of a foretold apostasy that was to take place. The apostles were the only ones who could, with the laying on of hands, pass the gifts on to others. When the apostles died, the gifts died with them.

The foretold apostasy was the work of God's enemy and he too can mimic the gifts of the spirit, but not to the same degree.....because it is not God's power that he is using.

The modern day miracles are not even close to what was seen in the first century and it was prophesied that satan would fool people with "lying signs and wonders, and powerful works". (2 Thessalonians 2:9-12)

At Matthew 7:21-23 we see people who are claiming Jesus as their Lord at the final judgment, offering their 'expelling of demons' and "powerful works" that they did in his name as proof of their discipleship, but he says that he "never knew" them....and rejects them completely. No one will want to be on the receiving end of that rejection.

We will explore what can be sorcery and what is a sign from God from Quranic perspective and look at the insights and arguments Quran for that, and the reflections regarding that. This is one of it's themes and so if you go searching, it obviously does address this and from many angles.

Link said:

If a Messenger comes out in the open, he has to perform miracles. It's not only to prove himself that this is necessary, it's that, you can't take his claims seriously if he doesn't.

The reason is quite simple. Messengers are not just any human, but the human tasked to rule humanity and Jinn, and that is not through blind following, but from connecting them to the light through proofs, insights, a book from God but also by their position as the light of God in this world.

If Moses and Jesus are the image of God and word of light brought to life they claim, they have to perform miracles.

It's easy to prove they would be false if they don't. What is harder, is to prove, they would proven, if they perform miracles.

Let me repeat this:

(M) Miracles performed
(T) Prophets are true.

If not M, then not T. Is easy to prove "If no miracles performed, the Prophets are false". The counter-positive is "If T, M"

If Prophets are true to their claim, they will perform miracles.

What is hard, is once, they show miracles, is the inverse:

"If miracles are performed, the Prophets are true".

The counter positive is is:

"If Prophets are false, they won't perform miracles"

Now the fact is the same logic for "If no miracles performed, the Prophets are false", if you ask why, the same exact reason would "If are Prophets are false, they won't perform miracles", and here even though it's counter positive to different statements that appear to be different when stated, it's almost if not the same fact.

Therefore we can see "If Prophets are true, they will perform miracles" implies "If they will perform miracles, they are true".

There is no reason you can come up with for one and not the other. It becomes vividly clear when we say the same sentences in counter-positive way.

But intuitively the only reason as well, that Prophets have to perform miracles to show they are true, is because it's a proof that they are true. There is no reason you can come up with other then that.

And ultimately it's because they are claiming to be trustees and keeping in might the world of magic, they have to be the cure for it the light the white magicians who know how to heal humanity out of the true life force of God, which is not like illusionary magic of dark forces.

So while dark magic can't create a fly, Jesus (a) for example, can create a bird and blow a spirit into clay and make cells and everything that forms a bird, and this is by God's permission, and easy for Jesus (a).

The power they have so immense that we find ourselves lost regarding them, if you forget God, they would be gods, but remembering God and they are but servants of him and worshipers of God and aren't even a iota of anything compared to him, but when forget God and were to look at them, it as the saying goes "put your net down, you can't catch the phoenix".

Click to expand...

The "magic" as you call them is in my understanding extraordenary abilities like psychic abilies or like Jesus is Said to have done. Make water in to wine, to my knowlede that is not magic, it is because of the masters one cultivate they did to become enlightened, and the abilities are just a bi product of their cultivated energy. And isnt actually something to speak out about if someone has cultivated them

danieldemol said:

I see a number of faults in your reasoning.
1. If miracles are the proof of Messengers why do you not accept the miracles of Krishna, Sai Baba and others

2. If miracles are the proof of messengers we would require a constant stream of living Messengers to prove to every living human by their miracles, otherwise at best miracles would only be proof to those who witnessed them. The rest of humanity would have to rely on tales of miracles and tales are easily faked.

3. Even to those who witnessed the miracles they could be dismissed as mere illusion. After all the magician can place clay into an empty hat and make the rabbit appear from it.

Click to expand...

I'm talking about live miracles.... Not us accepting past miracles.

Link said:

If a Messenger comes out in the open, he has to perform miracles. It's not only to prove himself that this is necessary, it's that, you can't take his claims seriously if he doesn't.

The reason is quite simple. Messengers are not just any human, but the human tasked to rule humanity and Jinn, and that is not through blind following, but from connecting them to the light through proofs, insights, a book from God but also by their position as the light of God in this world.

If Moses and Jesus are the image of God and word of light brought to life they claim, they have to perform miracles.

It's easy to prove they would be false if they don't. What is harder, is to prove, they would proven, if they perform miracles.

Let me repeat this:

(M) Miracles performed
(T) Prophets are true.

If not M, then not T. Is easy to prove "If no miracles performed, the Prophets are false". The counter-positive is "If T, M"

If Prophets are true to their claim, they will perform miracles.

What is hard, is once, they show miracles, is the inverse:

"If miracles are performed, the Prophets are true".

The counter positive is is:

"If Prophets are false, they won't perform miracles"

Now the fact is the same logic for "If no miracles performed, the Prophets are false", if you ask why, the same exact reason would "If are Prophets are false, they won't perform miracles", and here even though it's counter positive to different statements that appear to be different when stated, it's almost if not the same fact.

Therefore we can see "If Prophets are true, they will perform miracles" implies "If they will perform miracles, they are true".

There is no reason you can come up with for one and not the other. It becomes vividly clear when we say the same sentences in counter-positive way.

But intuitively the only reason as well, that Prophets have to perform miracles to show they are true, is because it's a proof that they are true. There is no reason you can come up with other then that.

And ultimately it's because they are claiming to be trustees and keeping in might the world of magic, they have to be the cure for it the light the white magicians who know how to heal humanity out of the true life force of God, which is not like illusionary magic of dark forces.

So while dark magic can't create a fly, Jesus (a) for example, can create a bird and blow a spirit into clay and make cells and everything that forms a bird, and this is by God's permission, and easy for Jesus (a).

The power they have so immense that we find ourselves lost regarding them, if you forget God, they would be gods, but remembering God and they are but servants of him and worshipers of God and aren't even a iota of anything compared to him, but when forget God and were to look at them, it as the saying goes "put your net down, you can't catch the phoenix".

Click to expand...

Agreed. Without proof that the human “prophet” is somehow connected to the divine, then they are simply another in a (LONG) list of zealots, chalatans, or even overhyped truly wise (yet not divinely inspired) human beings.
You may find their teachings to be wise or awe-inspiring, etc....
But without proof, then they are just some random dude or dudette with a soapbox. Period.
Claiming that proof somehow diminishes them is utter garbage, and the standard drivel of every charlatan throughout the ages. Soooo typical.

So step up, or step aside.

Now then....as to what exactly constitutes a “miracle”....

Thief said:

so it would seem

but this world is the world of condemnation

.......

Click to expand...

No.
This used to be (and unfortunately for many it still is) a world of wide-eyed, doe-like naïveté and willful acceptance of anything smacking of “magic”



But nowadays, many in the world are not more condemning. Arguably less so in truth.
Rather we are more questioning, and less impulsive (thank goodness).

So any “miracle” would have to be readily reproducible in a recorded and controlled environment.
A simple macro-scale disruption of one or more of the laws of physics would be a good start. Saaaaay, every human being on the planet, for the next 2 weeks, can at will, be immune to the forces of gravity to an altitude of 100 feet above ground level, as well as being completely invulerable to fall damage.
Easy-peesy for anything divine. Right? Right!
Then, people may start to pay attention.

Link said:

And in the start, they are just meant to cause people to fear enough to take the Prophets (a) seriously.

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Allah and his messengers should have realized that a day would come when people will not be frightened by the horror paintings created by them. The world has moved ahead. This is not 7th Century.