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The Ten Plagues of Egypt- allegorical or historical?

The Ten Plagues of Egypt- allegorical or historical?

  • Allegorical

    Votes: 5 11.6%
  • Historical

    Votes: 13 30.2%
  • Partly historical

    Votes: 6 14.0%
  • We can’t possibly know for certain

    Votes: 4 9.3%
  • This poll doesn’t reflect my thinking

    Votes: 15 34.9%

  • Total voters
    43

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
So how do Jews take the "historical" stories?
There is no single opinion, nor should we expect one as people often interpret a narrative differently. More below.

Why would they doubt that their God did miraculous things for them?
The vast majority of Jews within Judaism do believe in miracles even though there can be different opinions on both interpretation and accuracy of the text.

So what does it mean to "believe" in the Bible when the person believes the stories are not historical but fictional?
Who says they're "fictional"? The Bible is a book that deals with faith, thus not objective history, nor is it a science textbook.

I think the next step is worse. Take the stories away and what was real about Moses... or was Moses even real? Same problem for Christians, doubt the stories and then what about Jesus?
What you've done is to slip into an either/or dichotomy, but there's are plenty of area in between those polar opposites.

If those Bible stories aren't literally true, then why hold on to Judaism and Christianity?
Because no text is perfect.

Even though my main area is anthropology, which I taught for 30 years, I originally started out in history. One thing one quickly learns when studying history is that when one reads in a historical source is the author's take on what happened. Therefore, there's always some "wiggle room" so as to question its accuracy, which should lead the reader to try and check out other sources as well.
 

nPeace

Veteran Member
You’re making an assumption the Jews believed in their scriptures as literal truth. Do you have any evidence besides what is written in the Hebrew Bible?
You can read the Mishnah.
So that is three witnesses - the Hebrew scriptures, the Greek scriptures, and the Mishnah.

Other than what’s written in the Bible we can’t even be certain the Israelites were in Egypt during the time of Moses.
No.There is evidence - outside the Bible - the Israelites were in Egypt. You won't find the hailstones God pelted down in Egypt though, so don't go looking. :)
You don't know Moses (none of us do... apart from what's written about him, in the historical records of the Jews), so your argument seems to be a frantic grabbing at straws, and a strawman.

While we don’t know for certain what the Jews believed during the time of Moses right up until the Babylonian captivity, we do know about the diversity of Jewish beliefs today. However beliefs and not facts, just beliefs.
We don't know a lot of things, but we know what the Jews believe during the time Moses existed. They have been recorded through generations.
They still keep the passover to this day, as well as other traditions.
You evidently don't like that. May I ask why?
.
Of course its your personal view if you investigated it? What is the actual evidence for the ten plagues of Egypt? The Egyptians kept records of significant events but no records of the ten plagues. If you want to believe they happened based on what’s written in Exodus that’s your decision. However it doesn’t constitute evidence anymore than supernatural events written in the Vedas are evidence. They are simply stories passed down from generation to generation as all cultures do.
Your claim that they are stories, is your opinion - not based on fact. If you prefer that opinion, you are free to keep it.

Please explain how a historical Jesus, and Muhammad and more recently the Bab and Bahá’u’lláh, are evidence and science for the God you serve.
 
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nPeace

Veteran Member
What would you do if a religion gave you a book that wasn't literally true? And then told you to follow all the teachings of peace and love in that book but not to get caught up in the stories, since they aren't true? I think it makes Christianity meaningless. What could Christians say when they held up the Bible, "Listen people in this book are great fictional stories about God and his prophets and of his Christ." That is no where near what Bible-believing Christians do say, "This Book is the very Word of God. Believing in it and listen to what it says. Within its pages you will find salvation for your soul."
A religion? Not literally true?
Your hypothetical has already included two assumptions. 1) That a religion produced the book, and 2) That one knows that the book is not literally true.

So I need to change up the question a bit, to make it unbiased.
What would you do if a book is made available, which is not just any book, like a novel for example, but a collection of historical documents, written by more than two dozen writers (claiming to be eyewitnesses), over a period of more than a millennium, and containing information claimed to be of, and from the true God - creator of heaven and earth.
Why, I would do the same thing I did - and have been doing - for more that two decades. Investigate whether this book is trustworthy, and authentic, or not.
No matter how many times I have done that, the results always come back the same... It is.
Every passing year confirms it, and the more evidence surfaces, the more solid the foundation becomes. So that I can only repeat the words of Joshua, found at Joshua 23:14. . .you well know with all your heart and with all your soul that not one word out of all the good promises that Jehovah your God has spoken to you has failed. They have all come true for you. Not one word of them has failed.

What about you?
Would you rather people listen to words that have a sound basis, or words that have no basis at all?
For example, anyone can so easily say, "This is a story book, with mere stories."
Yet, they can produce no reasonable basis for saying so, other than - if they are honest - "I think so, because I don't believe the things it says."
Or do you have a reasonable basis for such a claim?

Apostle Paul stated it nicely for me, in his letter to the congregation in ?Thessalonica?. "Indeed, that is why we also thank God unceasingly, because when you received God’s word, which you heard from us, you accepted it not as the word of men but, just as it truthfully is, as the word of God, which is also at work in you believers." (1 Thessalonians 2:13)
It seems to me, there are people who read the Bible, but they don't study it, and moreover, there are people who will read it, but they will never know what they are reading. Matthew 13:10-16
They merely hear the words, but that's it.

I'm okay, thanks.
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
You can read the Mishnah.
So that is three witnesses - the Hebrew scriptures, the Greek scriptures, and the Mishnah.

To establish how Jews viewed and understood their scriptures in the time of Moses, we require contemporaneous documents but none exist. There are no Egyptian records for example that mention Moses or the Jews. Little wonder then that most scholars consider Moses as a mythical character.

Of the three body of works you mentioned, none are contemporaneous. The Hebrew Scriptures were not recorded until the Babylonian exile period. The Ancient Greek Writings have little to say about Judaism and the earliest references to Moses weren’t until the 4th century BC. The Mishnah was composed after the destruction of the Jewish Temple 70AD.

Presuming Moses existed, and you are yet to produce any evidence He did, He is thought to have existed approximately 3 1/2 thousand years ago. The works you refer to were not composed until 800 years (Hebrew scripture), 1100 years (Greek writing) and 1600 years (Mishnah) after Moses passed away.

No.There is evidence - outside the Bible - the Israelites were in Egypt. You won't find the hailstones God pelted down in Egypt though, so don't go looking. :)
You don't know Moses (none of us do... apart from what's written about him, in the historical records of the Jews), so your argument seems to be a frantic grabbing at straws, and a strawman.

To be clear the Hebrew Scriptures are religious texts, not historical records. Not even the Orthodox Jews have the level of literalism some Christians insist on. Everything I’m saying is supported by mainstream historians.

As a Baha’i I believe Moses existed and the Torah does have some historical basis. However that is what I believe. It is based on my faith in religious texts including the Tanakh and New Testament.

Please explain how a historical Jesus, and Muhammad and more recently the Bab and Bahá’u’lláh, are evidence and science for the God you serve.

To establish an evidence or scientific basis for faith in Moses, Jesus, Muhammad, the Bab or Bahá’u’lláh requires:

1/ Proofs that each Man was a real historical characters.

2/ We need to establish each One lived moral and outstanding lives consistent with the Monotheism They taught.

3/ Proofs the books attributable to Their Teachings are a reliable record.

4/ We must establish the Teachings in those books were outstanding and moral reflecting the lives they lived.

5/ We need historical evidence of profound, lasting and positive influence on civilisation and world history.

1-4 Are historical and archaeological based arguments. Historicity is strongest for contemporary characters such as the Bab and Bahá’u’lláh but becomes weak when considering Moses and even Jesus.

The influence on civilisation is strongest for Christianity and Islam. It is less strong for the Baha’i Faith as its only 176 years old.
 

nPeace

Veteran Member
To establish how Jews viewed and understood their scriptures in the time of Moses, we require contemporaneous documents but none exist. There are no Egyptian records for example that mention Moses or the Jews. Little wonder then that most scholars consider Moses as a mythical character.
That is interesting.
Do you think Jews and Christians are sitting around waiting for modern scholars to find what they consider evidence that would establish if a character is fictional or not, or how those characters might have been viewed?
I think the only ones doing that, are the skeptics.
Take for example, the characters mentioned here. Do you know how many of those characters were dismissed as fictional, because "there was no evidence outside the documents"? They were all fictional, and myth, but then they weren't.
I think that's enough to tell me, that the desperate argument imo, that "there is no evidence" will continue, regardless of how much evidence is there.
It seems obvious to me why.

Please don't discard the video.
You can just watch the first 13 minutes to get the point.

Of the three body of works you mentioned, none are contemporaneous.
There is no reason why documents must be contemporaneous, for them to corroborative. Why do you think that?

The Hebrew Scriptures were not recorded until the Babylonian exile period. The Ancient Greek Writings have little to say about Judaism and the earliest references to Moses weren’t until the 4th century BC.
What you said here is false.
Maybe you need to provide some proof at this point, to show otherwise.

The Mishnah was composed after the destruction of the Jewish Temple 70AD.

Presuming Moses existed, and you are yet to produce any evidence He did, He is thought to have existed approximately 3 1/2 thousand years ago. The works you refer to were not composed until 800 years (Hebrew scripture), 1100 years (Greek writing) and 1600 years (Mishnah) after Moses passed away.
Why do I need to produce evidence besides what I already did. There is no need.
You can believe what you want to believe. If it's not Moses, it will be the Red Sea crossing, or something else.

I don't think you want to use this argument, when you refer to people you accept that were not contemporary, and are millions of years away from the God you claim is real..

Muhammad - Wikipedia
Muhammad (c. 570 CE – 8 June 632 CE) was an Arab religious, social, and political leader and the founder of Islam.

Baháʼu'lláh - Wikipedia
Baháʼu'lláh (12 November 1817 – 29 May 1892) was a Persian religious leader, and the founder of the Baháʼí Faith, which advocates universal peace and unity among all races, nations, and religions.

Báb - Wikipedia
The Báb, born Siyyid ʻAlí Muhammad Shírází (October 20, 1819 – July 9, 1850) was the founder of Bábism, and one of the central figures of the Baháʼí Faith.

Jesus - Wikipedia
Jesus[e] (c. 4 BC – c. AD 30 / 33), also referred to as Jesus of Nazareth or Jesus Christ, was a first-century Jewish preacher and religious leader. He is the central figure of Christianity.

To be clear the Hebrew Scriptures are religious texts, not historical records.
This is another claim you cannot prove. It is evidently a biased opinion, because all the archaeological evidence found related to the Biblical texts are confirmed history... All. So I think you need to avoid making claims, and start producing evidence.

If you don't think this is history, then please explain what history is.
https://docs.lib.purdue.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1190&context=lib_fsdocs
List of biblical figures identified in extra-biblical sources - Wikipedia

Not even the Orthodox Jews have the level of literalism some Christians insist on. Everything I’m saying is supported by mainstream historians.
Everything you are saying? No. I don't think you realize that you are making unsupported claims.
Perhaps you should provide a link to verify what you say.
After all, you want evidence, so it's only fair, you produce evidence.

As a Baha’i I believe Moses existed and the Torah does have some historical basis. However that is what I believe. It is based on my faith in religious texts including the Tanakh and New Testament.
Wait. Didn't you just say a moment ago, that the Hebrew Scriptures are religious texts, not historical records?
Maybe I am confused. Perhaps you had better explain what a religious text is, and what a historical record is. :confused:

To establish an evidence or scientific basis for faith in Moses, Jesus, Muhammad, the Bab or Bahá’u’lláh requires:

1/ Proofs that each Man was a real historical characters.

2/ We need to establish each One lived moral and outstanding lives consistent with the Monotheism They taught.

3/ Proofs the books attributable to Their Teachings are a reliable record.

4/ We must establish the Teachings in those books were outstanding and moral reflecting the lives they lived.

5/ We need historical evidence of profound, lasting and positive influence on civilisation and world history.

1-4 Are historical and archaeological based arguments. Historicity is strongest for contemporary characters such as the Bab and Bahá’u’lláh but becomes weak when considering Moses and even Jesus.

The influence on civilisation is strongest for Christianity and Islam. It is less strong for the Baha’i Faith as its only 176 years old.
Perhaps you are confused. Sorry if I am to blame. I did not ask you for an evidence or scientific basis for faith in Moses, Jesus, Muhammad, the Bab or Bahá’u’llá.
I asked you to explain how a historical Jesus, and Muhammad and more recently the Bab and Bahá’u’lláh, are evidence and science for the God you serve.
I hope that's clear.
 

nPeace

Veteran Member
@adrian009 great! So since you evidently cannot - since you are silent about it - show how belief in your God demonstrates "respect for evidence and science", your entire argument crumbles... to powder. :D
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
Our conversation reminds me somewhat of a famous book by Ernie Bernie called the games people play.

Games People Play (book) - Wikipedia

You may have heard of it or read it. Its about social interactions and how dysfunctional patterns of behaviour can become a recurring theme among many people.

An example of a dysfunctional relationship can be what happens between an atheist and a particular kind of Christian. Both seem locked into proving the others point of view wrong and how they are right. Its a well worn path I see trodden over and over again on this forum but it has little interest for me personally. I’m neither someone who ascribes to Christian fundamentalism, nor am I an atheist.

You seem keen to discuss this topic and so I agreed. I must admit our last conversation a while back didn’t go well and I do apologise for anything I may have contributed to that discussion not working out. I had hoped, perhaps naively that this could be a more productive conversation.

However your opening question has left me doubting how helpful this conversation will be for either of us. Regardless, I’ll answer it.

That is interesting.
Do you think Jews and Christians are sitting around waiting for modern scholars to find what they consider evidence that would establish if a character is fictional or not, or how those characters might have been viewed?

Of course not. The majority of Christians where I live don’t attend church regularly let alone engage in any meaningful study of the Bible itself or the related history. Most Christians I come across are not literalists and so it doesn’t matter to them what scholars or archaeologists uncover or don’t. I feel exactly the same way. If archaeologists, historians and scientists find compelling proof that a serpent talked to Eve, a world wide flood during the time of Noah, that Moses parted the sea and Jesus literally rose from the dead, I'll reconsider. However no evidence exists for any of these extraordinary biblical events and so I feel no obligation as with many Christians I know to take certain verses in the Bible as literal historic truth.

I think the only ones doing that, are the skeptics.
Take for example, the characters mentioned here. Do you know how many of those characters were dismissed as fictional, because "there was no evidence outside the documents"? They were all fictional, and myth, but then they weren't.
I think that's enough to tell me, that the desperate argument imo, that "there is no evidence" will continue, regardless of how much evidence is there.
It seems obvious to me why.

Please don't discard the video.

You can just watch the first 13 minutes to get the point.

In my experience most people who are interested in history and science simply want to be better informed about the world they live in. I have two science degrees and a third post-graduate science degree. People I knew while at University wanted to contribute to the betterment of the world and find meaningful employment at the end of their studies. I wasn’t aware of too many people interested in atheist-Christian fundamentalist debates and it certainly wasn't a motivation for their studies.

The video you post wasn’t particularly informative. Why not just state archaeology is a recognised field of study that is constantly evolving and changing. New things get discovered and we have to re-evaluate what we once thought we knew in the light of new facts that become available. That video was a painful 10 minutes of my life that can never be retrieved.:D

There is no reason why documents must be contemporaneous, for them to corroborative. Why do you think that?

Think about a court of law where we try to find evidence the accused has committed a crime. Reliable eye witnesses to alleged events carry enormous weight. Hearsay based on tales passed down through the generations is not evidence.

Culture and the way people live, behave and think changes rapidly with time. Consider the rapid changes in the last century. What the Greeks had to say about Moses one thousand years after he was alive will provides limited information if any about how life was a thousand years beforehand.

What you said here is false.
Maybe you need to provide some proof at this point, to show otherwise.

The modern scholarly consensus is that the figure of Moses is a mythical figure,[14] and while, as William G. Dever writes, "a Moses-like figure may have existed somewhere in the southern Transjordan in the mid-late 13th century B.C.", archaeology cannot confirm his existence.[16] Certainly no Egyptian sources mention Moses or the events of Exodus–Deuteronomy, nor has any archaeological evidence been discovered in Egypt or the Sinai wilderness to support the story in which he is the central figure.[39]

Despite the imposing fame associated with Moses, no source mentions him until he emerges in texts associated with the Babylonian exile.[41]


Moses - Wikipedia

You may disagree, but that is the accepted understanding today.

Why do I need to produce evidence besides what I already did. There is no need.
You can believe what you want to believe. If it's not Moses, it will be the Red Sea crossing, or something else.

I don't think you want to use this argument, when you refer to people you accept that were not contemporary, and are millions of years away from the God you claim is real..

You have made a claim that Jewish people originally considered their writings as literal truth. Yet we have no evidence or documentation to verify what the Jews believed from the time Moses allegedly lived 3 1/2 thousand years ago until the Babylonian exile. History is completely silent.

I’m not sure what evidence you are wanting from me to verify the existence of God beyond what I’ve stated. It doesn’t matter to me whether you believe as I do or not and its off topic.

Long story short, there isn’t a shred of evidence to support the assertion the 10 plagues of Egypt actually happened.
 

nPeace

Veteran Member
Our conversation reminds me somewhat of a famous book by Ernie Bernie called the games people play.

Games People Play (book) - Wikipedia

You may have heard of it or read it. Its about social interactions and how dysfunctional patterns of behaviour can become a recurring theme among many people.

An example of a dysfunctional relationship can be what happens between an atheist and a particular kind of Christian. Both seem locked into proving the others point of view wrong and how they are right. Its a well worn path I see trodden over and over again on this forum but it has little interest for me personally. I’m neither someone who ascribes to Christian fundamentalism, nor am I an atheist.

You seem keen to discuss this topic and so I agreed. I must admit our last conversation a while back didn’t go well and I do apologise for anything I may have contributed to that discussion not working out. I had hoped, perhaps naively that this could be a more productive conversation.

However your opening question has left me doubting how helpful this conversation will be for either of us. Regardless, I’ll answer it.
Oops. I forgot this was not a debate forum, but an educational center, where after the educated, smart, intelligent teachers speak, the ... students listen, and go... "Yes teacher. You are correct. Okay Sir/Madam".
:D I couldn't help that.
Actually I could, but hey. :smiley:

This is a debate forum @adrian009... or am I mistaken?
We are going to say things that listeners don't agree with.
They will not accept what we say, just because we speak as though we know what we are saying. However, I have found it helpful to show or provide, or demonstrate the truthfulness of what is said. It usually does the job of putting claims in their place.
For some reason, that does not seem to be a very acceptable practice on RF. At least that's what I found.

May I ask, what do you consider a productive conversation, and where on RF do you normally find those?

Of course not. The majority of Christians where I live don’t attend church regularly let alone engage in any meaningful study of the Bible itself or the related history. Most Christians I come across are not literalists and so it doesn’t matter to them what scholars or archaeologists uncover or don’t. I feel exactly the same way. If archaeologists, historians and scientists find compelling proof that a serpent talked to Eve, a world wide flood during the time of Noah, that Moses parted the sea and Jesus literally rose from the dead, I'll reconsider. However no evidence exists for any of these extraordinary biblical events and so I feel no obligation as with many Christians I know to take certain verses in the Bible as literal historic truth.
:)


In my experience most people who are interested in history and science simply want to be better informed about the world they live in. I have two science degrees and a third post-graduate science degree. People I knew while at University wanted to contribute to the betterment of the world and find meaningful employment at the end of their studies. I wasn’t aware of too many people interested in atheist-Christian fundamentalist debates and it certainly wasn't a motivation for their studies.
I'm sorry, but I fail to see what that has to do with archaeological discoveries proving characters labelled fictional, to be historical.
The point I am making is, I believe, a crucial one - fictional characters don't transform to historical, as though someone waved a magic wand, and "Abracadabra" - a myth suddenly becomes reality, or fiction suddenly becomes fact.
The fact, and the reality exists, and the discoveries are made... even, and this is significant - by people who deny the reality.
In other words, while the skeptic is singing the song, "Absence of Evidence", and dismissing (very likely, as has often been the case), the reality is, and the facts may well be known.

The video you post wasn’t particularly informative. Why not just state archaeology is a recognised field of study that is constantly evolving and changing. New things get discovered and we have to re-evaluate what we once thought we knew in the light of new facts that become available. That video was a painful 10 minutes of my life that can never be retrieved.:D
Oh dear. What was so dreadful about it, if you don't mind sharing.

Think about a court of law where we try to find evidence the accused has committed a crime. Reliable eye witnesses to alleged events carry enormous weight. Hearsay based on tales passed down through the generations is not evidence.
Let's use this then.
Why do you believe Bab and Bahaullah?

Culture and the way people live, behave and think changes rapidly with time. Consider the rapid changes in the last century. What the Greeks had to say about Moses one thousand years after he was alive will provides limited information if any about how life was a thousand years beforehand.
Perhaps you heard about objective opinion
While it is true that witnesses are not always reliable, some are, and there are certain things one can look for, in determining reliability. For one thing, what do the witnesses have to gain by not being truthful? For another, can what they say be corroborated? Is their testimony challenged by anyone living close to their timeline? Many other factors can be considered.

The modern scholarly consensus is that the figure of Moses is a mythical figure,[14] and while, as William G. Dever writes, "a Moses-like figure may have existed somewhere in the southern Transjordan in the mid-late 13th century B.C.", archaeology cannot confirm his existence.[16] Certainly no Egyptian sources mention Moses or the events of Exodus–Deuteronomy, nor has any archaeological evidence been discovered in Egypt or the Sinai wilderness to support the story in which he is the central figure.[39]

Despite the imposing fame associated with Moses, no source mentions him until he emerges in texts associated with the Babylonian exile.[41]
Moses - Wikipedia

You may disagree, but that is the accepted understanding today.
If you are happy with the accepted understanding today, you might not want to stop at Moses. What about Elijah and his miracles? If Elijah is fictional, on what foundation does the Bahai faith lie - a mythical story, where so called prophets of a god are messengers?
Why are you, a person who claims that what you believe must have respect for evidence and science, believing that people claiming to be messengers of God, are indeed such, following a mythical story and the role of a fictional character in the same Bible books as Moses, and claimed by Jews to be written by said Moses?
Or is Elijah not mythical?

You have made a claim that Jewish people originally considered their writings as literal truth. Yet we have no evidence or documentation to verify what the Jews believed from the time Moses allegedly lived 3 1/2 thousand years ago until the Babylonian exile. History is completely silent.
History is completely silent, if you are going to ignore it. However, we do have evidence and documentation, verifying this. You have read the Hebrew scriptures, haven't you?

I’m not sure what evidence you are wanting from me to verify the existence of God beyond what I’ve stated. It doesn’t matter to me whether you believe as I do or not and its off topic.
You have stated no evidence, and science for God.
It is not off topic when you raised it. It might be off topic, if you think that bringing in evidence and science for Moses, or the plagues in Egypt, are not necessary. Do you think so?

Long story short, there isn’t a shred of evidence to support the assertion the 10 plagues of Egypt actually happened.
I personally think it is foolish to expect to find evidence for the 10 plagues in Egypt, for two reasons. 1) It's like looking for evidence that Jesus walked on water, and 2) It's trusting that the Egyptians would honestly record everything that happened to them, while the Jews wouldn't. Mind you, the Jews are known to have recorded candidly what a rebellious lot they were, and all their wrongs. The Egyptians, on the other hand, are known for erasing their history.
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
May I ask, what do you consider a productive conversation, and where on RF do you normally find those?

A productive conversation is when two or more people are both unitedly searching for truth and prepared to put aside preconceived notions, biases and prejudices as they work together to investigate what that truth is. An unproductive conversation is when one or more parties are promoting a narrative that they are so attached to, they are neither able to genuinely consider facts or alternate points of view that raise doubts or contradict that narrative.

The point I am making is, I believe, a crucial one - fictional characters don't transform to historical, as though someone waved a magic wand, and "Abracadabra" - a myth suddenly becomes reality, or fiction suddenly becomes fact.
The fact, and the reality exists, and the discoveries are made... even, and this is significant - by people who deny the reality.
In other words, while the skeptic is singing the song, "Absence of Evidence", and dismissing (very likely, as has often been the case), the reality is, and the facts may well be known.

I agree that absence of evidence doesn’t mean that an historical character didn’t exist or an event that took place a long time ago didn’t happen.

However we can’t assume that an event that has no supporting evidence happened either, can we?

Every culture has stories of incredible events that most of us would readily consider unlikely. The ten plagues of Egypt story recorded in Exodus is a good example.

Take for example the final plague. It is written in Exodus 11:4-6

This is what the LORD says: "About midnight I will go throughout Egypt. Every firstborn son in Egypt will die, from the firstborn son of Pharaoh, who sits on the throne, to the firstborn of the slave girl, who is at her hand mill, and all the firstborn of the cattle as well. There will be loud wailing throughout Egypt—worse than there has ever been or ever will be again."

Before this final plague God commands Moses to tell the Israelites to mark a lamb's blood above their doors in order that Yahweh will pass over them (i.e., that they will not be touched by the death of the firstborn). Pharaoh orders the Israelites to leave, taking whatever they want, and asks Moses to bless him in the name of the Lord.


Plagues of Egypt - Wikipedia

It is an extraordinary event as with many stories that feature in all cultures. Why should we believe this account and not other accounts from the many other world traditions?

How about the book exodus where the account was written? What is the earliest version of exodus available? Are there any fragments present 200 BC?

Let's use this then.
Why do you believe Bab and Bahaullah?

I have my reasons for believing in the Bab and Bahá’u’lláh. Their historicity is undeniable as with the works for which we can reliably attribute Their authorship. The Bab was executed after a six year ministry. Bahá’u’lláh endured 40 years of exile including imprisonments and torture. Thousands of the early Babis were put to death. Despite 75 years of both the Persian and Ottoman Empires efforts to completely eradicate this new movement and ongoing persecution to this day, the Baha’i movement remains a dynamic and spiritually energised community. There is no need to mention extraordinary events.

Perhaps you heard about objective opinion
While it is true that witnesses are not always reliable, some are, and there are certain things one can look for, in determining reliability. For one thing, what do the witnesses have to gain by not being truthful? For another, can what they say be corroborated? Is their testimony challenged by anyone living close to their timeline? Many other factors can be considered.

So who authored Exodus?

If you are happy with the accepted understanding today, you might not want to stop at Moses. What about Elijah and his miracles? If Elijah is fictional, on what foundation does the Bahai faith lie - a mythical story, where so called prophets of a god are messengers?

So what does the Baha’i Faith have to say about Moses and Elijah? It doesn’t deny their existence. For example:

Some Answered Questions | Bahá’í Reference Library

Why are you, a person who claims that what you believe must have respect for evidence and science, believing that people claiming to be messengers of God, are indeed such, following a mythical story and the role of a fictional character in the same Bible books as Moses, and claimed by Jews to be written by said Moses?
Or is Elijah not mythical?

I am a Baha’i. Because I believe in Bahá’u’lláh I believe in Moses and Elijah. I believe the Torah was Revealed by Moses and under God’s Protection.

A Bahá'í View of the Bible

However, Baha’is should be able to recognise the difference between faith, beliefs and evidence. So as a Baha’i I believe Jesus was born to the Virgin Mary and was the Son of God. Having scientific evidence to support such assertions is an entirely different matter.

History is completely silent, if you are going to ignore it. However, we do have evidence and documentation, verifying this. You have read the Hebrew scriptures, haven't you?

Of course I have read the Tanakh. It cannot be considered reliable evidence for the ten plagues on account of the enormous period between the first manuscript in existence and this event over a thousand years beforehand. It is however reliable evidence for the existence of God for the faithful.

You have stated no evidence, and science for God.
It is not off topic when you raised it. It might be off topic, if you think that bringing in evidence and science for Moses, or the plagues in Egypt, are not necessary. Do you think so?

I have stated the evidence for God clearly. The Hebrew Bible, The New Testament, the Quran and the Baha’i Writings. However they are not evidence for the ten plagues of Egypt as demonstrated. Although these sacred writings contain important history, they are not history books. It is no longer sufficient to believe. We need to distinguish spiritual truth from historical truth.

I personally think it is foolish to expect to find evidence for the 10 plagues in Egypt, for two reasons. 1) It's like looking for evidence that Jesus walked on water, and 2) It's trusting that the Egyptians would honestly record everything that happened to them, while the Jews wouldn't. Mind you, the Jews are known to have recorded candidly what a rebellious lot they were, and all their wrongs. The Egyptians, on the other hand, are known for erasing their history.

I have no objection to Christians believing the earth was created in six days, that people not so long ago lived nearly a thousand years ago and giants such as the one conquered by David literally existed. I do object when those same Christians denounce other Christians who don’t share the same beliefs. I also recognise Christianity is too far gone to be redeemed by the efforts of its followers. Perhaps that is a point of agreement between us.
 

nPeace

Veteran Member
A productive conversation is when two or more people are both unitedly searching for truth and prepared to put aside preconceived notions, biases and prejudices as they work together to investigate what that truth is. An unproductive conversation is when one or more parties are promoting a narrative that they are so attached to, they are neither able to genuinely consider facts or alternate points of view that raise doubts or contradict that narrative.
Oh. So don't only have educated smart intelligent teachers on RF. We now have judges who can tell the genuine.
I am so amazed.
Honestly, adrian009 I have learned so much, on RF, I don't think you want to know it.

I agree that absence of evidence doesn’t mean that an historical character didn’t exist or an event that took place a long time ago didn’t happen.

However we can’t assume that an event that has no supporting evidence happened either, can we?

Every culture has stories of incredible events that most of us would readily consider unlikely. The ten plagues of Egypt story recorded in Exodus is a good example.

Take for example the final plague. It is written in Exodus 11:4-6

This is what the LORD says: "About midnight I will go throughout Egypt. Every firstborn son in Egypt will die, from the firstborn son of Pharaoh, who sits on the throne, to the firstborn of the slave girl, who is at her hand mill, and all the firstborn of the cattle as well. There will be loud wailing throughout Egypt—worse than there has ever been or ever will be again."

Before this final plague God commands Moses to tell the Israelites to mark a lamb's blood above their doors in order that Yahweh will pass over them (i.e., that they will not be touched by the death of the firstborn). Pharaoh orders the Israelites to leave, taking whatever they want, and asks Moses to bless him in the name of the Lord.


Plagues of Egypt - Wikipedia

It is an extraordinary event as with many stories that feature in all cultures. Why should we believe this account and not other accounts from the many other world traditions?

How about the book exodus where the account was written? What is the earliest version of exodus available? Are there any fragments present 200 BC?
I'm not sure you got the point.
How many proofs of historicity would convince a skeptic? Since I am talking to you, let me ask you. Suppose the confirmed 53 characters tripled. Suppose the confirmed events tripled. Would you not still be looking for evidence hail fell from heaven and killed only the animals of the Egyptians who left them in the field?
You would still be saying there is no evidence of these things, wouldn't you?
You would also accuse the writers of either making up stories - lying actually, or believing something they imagined - mentally unstable.
So, in other words, the evidence that proves reliability of the document is not enough. The agreement from absence will continue to prevail, until...
I think it's an argument skeptics hide behind, for convenience.

While the candor of the writers is not considered.
That's your choice adrian009, but I think if writers of various time periods corroborated each other, and archaeological evidence confirms a great percentage of their record, that along with other evidence... of course, is good enough reason to reasonably conclude their reliability.

I have my reasons for believing in the Bab and Bahá’u’lláh. Their historicity is undeniable as with the works for which we can reliably attribute Their authorship. The Bab was executed after a six year ministry. Bahá’u’lláh endured 40 years of exile including imprisonments and torture. Thousands of the early Babis were put to death. Despite 75 years of both the Persian and Ottoman Empires efforts to completely eradicate this new movement and ongoing persecution to this day, the Baha’i movement remains a dynamic and spiritually energised community. There is no need to mention extraordinary events.
You misunderstood my question apparently.
I didn't ask why you believe their historicity. I am really asking why you believe them - as in, why do you believe what they claim, or said, or teach?

You said... Think about a court of law where we try to find evidence the accused has committed a crime. Reliable eye witnesses to alleged events carry enormous weight. Hearsay based on tales passed down through the generations is not evidence.
Why do you believe the claims of Bab and Bahaullah?

So who authored Exodus?
I take it you mean, who authorized the Book of Exodus. Or are you asking about the Exodus from Egypt?


So what does the Baha’i Faith have to say about Moses and Elijah? It doesn’t deny their existence. For example:

Some Answered Questions | Bahá’í Reference Library



I am a Baha’i. Because I believe in Bahá’u’lláh I believe in Moses and Elijah. I believe the Torah was Revealed by Moses and under God’s Protection.

A Bahá'í View of the Bible

However, Baha’is should be able to recognise the difference between faith, beliefs and evidence. So as a Baha’i I believe Jesus was born to the Virgin Mary and was the Son of God. Having scientific evidence to support such assertions is an entirely different matter.
Okay. This is what I was getting at.
So the claim you made here - call it respect for evidence and science. is irrelevant, and should never have been made in this thread. Am I correct?

Of course I have read the Tanakh. It cannot be considered reliable evidence for the ten plagues on account of the enormous period between the first manuscript in existence and this event over a thousand years beforehand. It is however reliable evidence for the existence of God for the faithful.
How so?


I have stated the evidence for God clearly. The Hebrew Bible, The New Testament, the Quran and the Baha’i Writings. However they are not evidence for the ten plagues of Egypt as demonstrated. Although these sacred writings contain important history, they are not history books. It is no longer sufficient to believe. We need to distinguish spiritual truth from historical truth.
Perhaps I missed your explanation, but that is unlikely, since I would have been paying keen attention to see how you explain that.
I'll double check though, and get back to you on this.

Edit:
@adrian009 No. I quadruple checked, and you have not stated the evidence for God clearly. Mentioning books is not stating clearly how they are evidence of God.

I have no objection to Christians believing the earth was created in six days, that people not so long ago lived nearly a thousand years ago and giants such as the one conquered by David literally existed. I do object when those same Christians denounce other Christians who don’t share the same beliefs. I also recognise Christianity is too far gone to be redeemed by the efforts of its followers. Perhaps that is a point of agreement between us.
No that is not a point of argument from my side. If you want to discuss those issues you have, you can always make a thread for them.
 
Last edited:

The Anointed

Well-Known Member
Oops. I forgot this was not a debate forum, but an educational center, where after the educated, smart, intelligent teachers speak, the ... students listen, and go... "Yes teacher. You are correct. Okay Sir/Madam".
:D I couldn't help that.
Actually I could, but hey. :smiley:

This is a debate forum @adrian009... or am I mistaken?
We are going to say things that listeners don't agree with.
They will not accept what we say, just because we speak as though we know what we are saying. However, I have found it helpful to show or provide, or demonstrate the truthfulness of what is said. It usually does the job of putting claims in their place.
For some reason, that does not seem to be a very acceptable practice on RF. At least that's what I found.

May I ask, what do you consider a productive conversation, and where on RF do you normally find those?


:)



I'm sorry, but I fail to see what that has to do with archaeological discoveries proving characters labelled fictional, to be historical.
The point I am making is, I believe, a crucial one - fictional characters don't transform to historical, as though someone waved a magic wand, and "Abracadabra" - a myth suddenly becomes reality, or fiction suddenly becomes fact.
The fact, and the reality exists, and the discoveries are made... even, and this is significant - by people who deny the reality.
In other words, while the skeptic is singing the song, "Absence of Evidence", and dismissing (very likely, as has often been the case), the reality is, and the facts may well be known.


Oh dear. What was so dreadful about it, if you don't mind sharing.


Let's use this then.
Why do you believe Bab and Bahaullah?


Perhaps you heard about objective opinion
While it is true that witnesses are not always reliable, some are, and there are certain things one can look for, in determining reliability. For one thing, what do the witnesses have to gain by not being truthful? For another, can what they say be corroborated? Is their testimony challenged by anyone living close to their timeline? Many other factors can be considered.


If you are happy with the accepted understanding today, you might not want to stop at Moses. What about Elijah and his miracles? If Elijah is fictional, on what foundation does the Bahai faith lie - a mythical story, where so called prophets of a god are messengers?
Why are you, a person who claims that what you believe must have respect for evidence and science, believing that people claiming to be messengers of God, are indeed such, following a mythical story and the role of a fictional character in the same Bible books as Moses, and claimed by Jews to be written by said Moses?
Or is Elijah not mythical?


History is completely silent, if you are going to ignore it. However, we do have evidence and documentation, verifying this. You have read the Hebrew scriptures, haven't you?


You have stated no evidence, and science for God.
It is not off topic when you raised it. It might be off topic, if you think that bringing in evidence and science for Moses, or the plagues in Egypt, are not necessary. Do you think so?


I personally think it is foolish to expect to find evidence for the 10 plagues in Egypt, for two reasons. 1) It's like looking for evidence that Jesus walked on water, and 2) It's trusting that the Egyptians would honestly record everything that happened to them, while the Jews wouldn't. Mind you, the Jews are known to have recorded candidly what a rebellious lot they were, and all their wrongs. The Egyptians, on the other hand, are known for erasing their history.

If you think it is foolish to expect to find evidence for the 10 plagues in Egypt, try looking to the explosion of the island of Thera.
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
Oh. So don't only have educated smart intelligent teachers on RF. We now have judges who can tell the genuine.
I am so amazed.
Honestly, adrian009 I have learned so much, on RF, I don't think you want to know it.

?

I'm not sure you got the point.
How many proofs of historicity would convince a skeptic? Since I am talking to you, let me ask you. Suppose the confirmed 53 characters tripled. Suppose the confirmed events tripled. Would you not still be looking for evidence hail fell from heaven and killed only the animals of the Egyptians who left them in the field?
You would still be saying there is no evidence of these things, wouldn't you?
You would also accuse the writers of either making up stories - lying actually, or believing something they imagined - mentally unstable.
So, in other words, the evidence that proves reliability of the document is not enough. The agreement from absence will continue to prevail, until...
I think it's an argument skeptics hide behind, for convenience.

It seems to me you are claiming the Bible is not just a religious text but is a text of literal history that can be trusted and relied to portray an accurate and correct account of actual events. Is that what you believe? If not, what is the claim you are making? You clearly believe the ten plagues of Egypt literally happened.

So the next step is to prove that it happened as was written. You claim your argument is based on archaeological evidence but none has been produced specific to the ten plagues of Egypt.

There is evidence of course to support later events in the Bible. I would not deny evidence that Jesus was crucified based on the extra-biblical accounts of Josephus and Tacitus. The four Gospel accounts are clear that Jesus was crucified. Most importantly Christ’s crucifixion is a plausible narrative. He died a criminal’s death at the hands of the Romans by means that the Romans were infamous for. The Apostolic letters provide valuable corroborative evidence.

So are you saying that because the Bible reports some history that could reasonably be accepted as having happened, we should accept all stories by the 35 or so alleged authors of the 66 biblical books produced over 1,500 years as being literally true?

If that is what you are claiming and trying to prove, you are correct to identify me as a skeptic. I’m not a biblical literalist. However I don’t believe those who wrote the stories were lying. They simply wrote down the stories that were part of their oral traditions in many cases such as the Torah. They weren’t ‘mentally deranged’’ but reasonable and moral people who valued the religious traditions of their peoples and perceived a need for a more lasting record.

While the candor of the writers is not considered.
That's your choice adrian009, but I think if writers of various time periods corroborated each other, and archaeological evidence confirms a great percentage of their record, that along with other evidence... of course, is good enough reason to reasonably conclude their reliability.

If we were to establish the oldest intact Hebrew Bible book available, which one is it and roughly how old?

You misunderstood my question apparently.
I didn't ask why you believe their historicity. I am really asking why you believe them - as in, why do you believe what they claim, or said, or teach?

Because it is consistent with a plausible narrative about how God has progressively Revealed Himself from Adam until the present day.

You said... Think about a court of law where we try to find evidence the accused has committed a crime. Reliable eye witnesses to alleged events carry enormous weight. Hearsay based on tales passed down through the generations is not evidence.
Why do you believe the claims of Bab and Bahaullah?

As above.

I take it you mean, who authorized the Book of Exodus. Or are you asking about the Exodus from Egypt?

No, who authored Exodus. Please look up the meaning of the word ‘authored.’ Where did it originate and who wrote it down?

Okay. This is what I was getting at.
So the claim you made here - call it respect for evidence and science. is irrelevant, and should never have been made in this thread. Am I correct?

No.


As above. These books fit a plausible narrative as to God’s Revelation with humanity. The Hebrew Bible, the New Testament and the Quran are the most influential books to have affected the course of history since the time of Moses. You simply pick up any history text as evidence. The story of God is on every page, even though His name isn’t mentioned.

Perhaps I missed your explanation, but that is unlikely, since I would have been paying keen attention to see how you explain that.
I'll double check though, and get back to you on this.

Edit:
@adrian009 No. I quadruple checked, and you have not stated the evidence for God clearly. Mentioning books is not stating clearly how they are evidence of God.

To establish an evidence or scientific basis for faith in Moses, Jesus, Muhammad, the Bab or Bahá’u’lláh requires:

1/ Proofs that each Man was a real historical characters.

2/ We need to establish each One lived moral and outstanding lives consistent with the Monotheism They taught.

3/ Proofs the books attributable to Their Teachings are a reliable record.

4/ We must establish the Teachings in those books were outstanding and moral reflecting the lives they lived.

5/ We need historical evidence of profound, lasting and positive influence on civilisation and world history.

These books, the Prophets of God who influenced them and the communities that resulted are sufficient evidence for ‘me.’ They tell a compelling story. They demonstrate how religion has promoted individual moral progress, community building, the development of the tribe, city, nation state and beyond.

For example have you considered the influence of the Quran on the Islamic Golden Age, and how Islamic civilisation ignited the European Renaissance? That is miraculous enough.

It seems we are having difficulty understanding each other. I have asked for evidence in support of the ten plagues of Egypt. The Hebrew Bible, other Jewish texts and the Greek writings are sufficient proof for you to believe but insufficient for me. I’ve explained why but see why they would be for you. The Torah, Gospels, Quran and Baha’i Writings are sufficient proof for me to believe in God, but clearly not for you. I’ve explained why but you are dissatisfied with my answer and keep repeating the same question.

We’ve tried to talk with each other. It didn’t go as badly as the last time. I wish you well.
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
But to the point where there is no other account for them? The plagues would have been far too remarkable for that.

I bet the Germans would be very happy to eliminate the Nazis and concentration camps from their history.
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
@adrian009 great! So since you evidently cannot - since you are silent about it - show how belief in your God demonstrates "respect for evidence and science", your entire argument crumbles... to powder. :D

I believe my belief in God trumps evidence and science. So I only give respect where respect is due.
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
I don't think so, but considering how huge of a event it was they wouldn't succeed either way.

This week a statue of Robert E Lee is being torn down. The confederate flag can't be flown. It is a lot easier than you think.
 

The Anointed

Well-Known Member
According to the compilers of Young’s Analytical Concordance to the Bible, they date the exodus at somewhere around the year of 1500 BC about the period when the island of Santorini or Thira blew its top, when seismic waves flooded Egyptian croplands, causing a famine and other catastrophic events.

The fourteenth day of the first month of the Jewish year, which was the first Passover ever, was the day in which all the first born sons of Egypt were killed. Around that time the volcanic Island of Santorini or Thira as it is also known, which was situated in the Aegean-sea, on the Anatolian plate, which is subject to the forces of the over-riding African Plate that grinds against the Arabian plate in its Northern migration, exploded with many times the force of Krakatoa, which was a volcanic island that exploded in 1883, and that explosion was heard 5,000 kilometres away, and caused a tsunami that killed at least 36,000 people. It has been estimated that when the island of Santorini exploded, 35,000 kilometres of material was lifted into the heavens, and that the explosive force would have created tidal waves of anything up to 130 ft high which would have traveled at speeds of around 150 miles per hour.

A cloud, that turned day into night around 1,500 BC, has been recorded in Chinese history, and would have covered all of north Africa. The African and Arabian plates intersect in a line that runs through the Red Sea and up the Jordan valley through the Dead Sea which was created hundreds of years before the explosion of Santorini, when a violent air blast, consistent with a Tunguska-like fireball destroyed the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah, which were then situated in the Jordan valley and in the days of Lot, that area was described, as like unto the garden of the Lord, with abundant fresh water flowing through it.

Look at the strange phenomenon that was occurring at the time of the Exodus. The cloud that blanketed north Africa and most of Europe, and turned day into a night so dark that a man was not able to recognise his own brother who was standing at arms-length from him. The rain of sulfuric acid that caused so much crop failure and the death of the livestock which were forced to feed on the polluted pastures, the following series of shock waves along the great rift valley and the fractures in the Sini peninsular which is situated on the Arabian plate, the bulging of the earth’s crust beneath the Red Sea which caused a highway to rise from the waters, with its following tremor when it collapsed and tidal waves that rolled in like two walls of water on either side of where the highway had been.

Wisdom of Solomon 19: 7-8, ‘Then was beheld the cloud that shadowed the camp, and dry land rising up out of what was before water, Out of the Red sea an unhindered highway, and a grassy plain rising out of the violent surge.”

Look even where the Israelites camped on the shore of the Red sea, which was smack bang in the middle of a major coal field in Egypt.

The bulging earth rising from the surging sea before them, pressurised gas screaming from the opening fissures creating towering pillars of fire to burn behind them, a strong east wind blew all that night causing the thick smoke to blind the pursuing Egyptians while lighting up the camp of the Israelites on the eastern side of those wild fires.

All these events were caused from pressures that had been built up over tens of thousands of years and would have occurred in their proper time, irrelevant of the Israeli situation. Where the miracle lay, was in the fact that an unseen deity of the future, was able, through his prophet Moses, to organise the events leading up to and including the exodus itself at the precise time in history that this cataclysmic event occurred.

In the book “The Wisdom of Solomon, 16” Solomon has much to say about the days of Moses; he speaks of the strange hails that fell from heaven. Burning balls of frozen gases, some with the ability to burn even in water, some which burned with a heat so intense that they incinerated anything they came in contact with, while other hail, burned with a cold fire through which animals could walk unharmed.

Solomon also speaks of the cloud that covered the Israelites in the desert and of the Manna that fell from heaven during the night. According to Solomon, the heavenly covering was a cloud by day and a host of stars by night, (a night sky ablaze with falling balls of burning hail stones). Then concerning the heavenly Manna, he says, “And that which was not injured by fire, [Burning hailstones] simply warmed by a faint sun beam melted away.

Each morning the desert floor was covered with mounds of a flaky cellulose substance which looked like coriander seed, and would melt and breed worms and stink if left out in the sun, and yet could be preserved when cooked, and tasted like biscuits mixed with the purest of olive oils.

Carbohydrates are any of a group of chemical compounds, including sugars, starches, and cellulose, containing carbon, hydrogen, and oxygen only, [of which there was an ample supply in the cloud from the volcanic explosion] with the ratio of hydrogen to oxygen atoms usually 2 : 1. Perhaps, if our scientists could simulate the same conditions that occurred in the stratosphere when the island of Thira exploded, they may come up with an inexpensive and environmentally friendly source of food production to feed the starving millions on the earth.

The early Egyptian magicians or scientists, were able to duplicate some of the miracles of God as performed by Moses. Wouldn’t it be wonderful if our magician/scientists of today were able to perform the more mysterious of God’s miracles as seen in the days of Moses, and provide an abundant and cheap source of food to feed the ever growing population on this earth.

As I have already said, all those things that happened in Egypt at that time, were caused from pressures that had built up over many, many, thousands of years. Where the miracle is found, is in the fact that some invisible entity from some other time dimension, was able to instigate the Exodus, at the precise time that the destructive forces beneath the island of Santorini, were beginning to awake.

Although radiocarbon dating of an olive tree imbedded in lava would appear to indicate a 1600 BCE eruption of Santorini/Thera, that is, if the lava that it was imbedded in was from the actual eruption that devastated the island and its surrounding districts and not from an earlier minor lava flow, there are many archeologists who still believe that the date is contradicted by findings in Egyptian and Theran excavations.

Buried Egyptian and Cypriot pottery found on Thera were dated to a later period than the radiometric dates for the eruption, and, since the conventional Egyptian chronology has been established by numerous archaeological studies, the exact date of the eruption remains controversial.

Because of all the contradicting evidence, the exact date of the eruption has been difficult to determine. For most of the twentieth century, archaeologists placed it at approximately 1500 BCE, but this date appeared to be too young as radiocarbon dating analysis of that olive tree which was buried beneath “A” lava flow from the volcano on Santorini, indicate that the particular lava flow in which the olive tree was imbedded, occurred between 1627 BCE and 1600 BCE.

Kathleen Kenyon, a most respected archaeologist dug at Jericho over the seasons between 1952 to 1958, her results were confirmed in 1995 by radiocarbon tests, which dated the destruction of Jericho to 1562 BC (Plus/minus 38 years) with a certainty of 95%.

The radiocarbon tests which dated the destruction of Jericho to 1562 BC (plus/minus 38 years) with a certainty of 95%, confirm that the biblical date of 1527 BC for the destruction, agrees with Kathleen Kenyon’s findings.

1562 (minus 38 years) [1562-38=1524 BC.] this would mean that Jericho fell somewhere between 1562 and 1524 BC, close enough to the 40 years after Josephus’ date for the Exodus in 1567. [1567-40=1527 BC]

Pumice that matches the composition of the Thera eruption, which was found at Tell el Dab'a in Egypt, has been dated to 1540 BCE, closer to the traditionally accepted date of Thera's eruption, and the expulsion of the Hyksos Shepherd Kings in 1567
 

nPeace

Veteran Member
?



It seems to me you are claiming the Bible is not just a religious text but is a text of literal history that can be trusted and relied to portray an accurate and correct account of actual events. Is that what you believe? If not, what is the claim you are making? You clearly believe the ten plagues of Egypt literally happened.

So the next step is to prove that it happened as was written. You claim your argument is based on archaeological evidence but none has been produced specific to the ten plagues of Egypt.

There is evidence of course to support later events in the Bible. I would not deny evidence that Jesus was crucified based on the extra-biblical accounts of Josephus and Tacitus. The four Gospel accounts are clear that Jesus was crucified. Most importantly Christ’s crucifixion is a plausible narrative. He died a criminal’s death at the hands of the Romans by means that the Romans were infamous for. The Apostolic letters provide valuable corroborative evidence.

So are you saying that because the Bible reports some history that could reasonably be accepted as having happened, we should accept all stories by the 35 or so alleged authors of the 66 biblical books produced over 1,500 years as being literally true?

If that is what you are claiming and trying to prove, you are correct to identify me as a skeptic. I’m not a biblical literalist. However I don’t believe those who wrote the stories were lying. They simply wrote down the stories that were part of their oral traditions in many cases such as the Torah. They weren’t ‘mentally deranged’’ but reasonable and moral people who valued the religious traditions of their peoples and perceived a need for a more lasting record.



If we were to establish the oldest intact Hebrew Bible book available, which one is it and roughly how old?



Because it is consistent with a plausible narrative about how God has progressively Revealed Himself from Adam until the present day.



As above.



No, who authored Exodus. Please look up the meaning of the word ‘authored.’ Where did it originate and who wrote it down?



No.



As above. These books fit a plausible narrative as to God’s Revelation with humanity. The Hebrew Bible, the New Testament and the Quran are the most influential books to have affected the course of history since the time of Moses. You simply pick up any history text as evidence. The story of God is on every page, even though His name isn’t mentioned.





These books, the Prophets of God who influenced them and the communities that resulted are sufficient evidence for ‘me.’ They tell a compelling story. They demonstrate how religion has promoted individual moral progress, community building, the development of the tribe, city, nation state and beyond.

For example have you considered the influence of the Quran on the Islamic Golden Age, and how Islamic civilisation ignited the European Renaissance? That is miraculous enough.

It seems we are having difficulty understanding each other. I have asked for evidence in support of the ten plagues of Egypt. The Hebrew Bible, other Jewish texts and the Greek writings are sufficient proof for you to believe but insufficient for me. I’ve explained why but see why they would be for you. The Torah, Gospels, Quran and Baha’i Writings are sufficient proof for me to believe in God, but clearly not for you. I’ve explained why but you are dissatisfied with my answer and keep repeating the same question.

We’ve tried to talk with each other. It didn’t go as badly as the last time. I wish you well.
Okay thanks.
The same line of reasoning you have used for the evidence for God, is the same line of reasoning we use for the ten plagues of Egypt. See your line of reasoning.
Because it is consistent with a plausible narrative about how God has progressively Revealed Himself from Adam until the present day.

As above. These books fit a plausible narrative as to God’s Revelation with humanity. The Hebrew Bible, the New Testament and the Quran are the most influential books to have affected the course of history since the time of Moses. You simply pick up any history text as evidence. The story of God is on every page, even though His name isn’t mentioned.

These books, the Prophets of God who influenced them and the communities that resulted are sufficient evidence for ‘me.’ They tell a compelling story. They demonstrate how religion has promoted individual moral progress, community building, the development of the tribe, city, nation state and beyond.

We don't need to have been there, and we don't need to find evidence of every single event in the Bible. We only need to establish one thing - Can we trust the record.?
Since it's not only archaeology that gives us the answer, but a number of other pieces of evidence (See the link), we can reach a reasonable conclusion.

Thanks for allowing us to reach a point of a reasonable conclusion, even if we don't agree on the conclusion.
At least I am satisfied with the outcome of this conversation. I hope you are too.
Thanks. Take care
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
Okay thanks.
The same line of reasoning you have used for the evidence for God, is the same line of reasoning we use for the ten plagues of Egypt. See your line of reasoning.
Because it is consistent with a plausible narrative about how God has progressively Revealed Himself from Adam until the present day.

As above. These books fit a plausible narrative as to God’s Revelation with humanity. The Hebrew Bible, the New Testament and the Quran are the most influential books to have affected the course of history since the time of Moses. You simply pick up any history text as evidence. The story of God is on every page, even though His name isn’t mentioned.

These books, the Prophets of God who influenced them and the communities that resulted are sufficient evidence for ‘me.’ They tell a compelling story. They demonstrate how religion has promoted individual moral progress, community building, the development of the tribe, city, nation state and beyond.

We don't need to have been there, and we don't need to find evidence of every single event in the Bible. We only need to establish one thing - Can we trust the record.?
Since it's not only archaeology that gives us the answer, but a number of other pieces of evidence (See the link), we can reach a reasonable conclusion.

Thanks for allowing us to reach a point of a reasonable conclusion, even if we don't agree on the conclusion.
At least I am satisfied with the outcome of this conversation. I hope you are too.
Thanks. Take care

The best we can hope for is to agree to disagree. I’m pleased you feel better about the outcome and I thought we did better than last time.

It seems clear that you believe the Bible is a book that can be relied on and trusted for historical information. I believe that Bible has valuable historical information but its prime focus is NOT to inform us about history. It is to inform us how to live a coherent, moral and spiritual life. It achieves that be providing guidance that has been revealed by God Himself that allows us to draw nearer to Him. So its primarily a religious not an historical text for me. So I don’t need the ten plagues of Egypt to be literally true in its entirety to benefit from the Bibles spiritual message. Best Wishes.
 
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