Jesus Said "It Is Finished"

rrobs said:

Why did God inspire Peter, Paul, John, etc. to write the NT books if they instantly knew everything in one day?

Why were the Jews, including the Apostle Peter (Gal 2:11) still zealous for the law, including circumcision?

You are taking Matthew 10 and John 14 out of context. It is talking about being brought before the Roman and Jewish authorities. It has nothing to do with the mystery that is the defining characteristic of this age. God didn't even reveal it to Paul for several years after Pentecost, so how could the Apostles know about it that day?

The Apostles did have to learn the new doctrine over a period of time and therefore my claim is in fact quite valid. It's actually what the book itself says.

btw, you said "once again" I am wrong. I think you must prove me wrong one time before proving me wrong "once again." You haven't done either yet.

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We can see the affect of the Holy Spirits power in (Acts 28:3). Paul was bitten by a venomous snake and it did not harm him. This did not happen in the presence of Roman or Jewish authorities. This helps to prove my point.



I think it's obvious you were not baptized with Christ 1000s of years before you were ever born physically or before you ever sinned.

It baffles me that anyone would use such an argument much less teach it to others. This is just a way to distance one from water baptism for the remission of sins like (Acts 2:38 ; 22:16) and (Acts 8:5,12,13,26-40) teaches.


I do not think you ever answered my question, maybe you will do it now.

When were your sins forgiven?

1. 1000s of years before you were ever born or sinned
2. Belief
3. confession
4. Repentance
5. Baptism



Thanks

Nova2216 said:

I think it's obvious you were not baptized with Christ 1000s of years before you were ever born physically or before you ever sinned.

It baffles me that anyone would use such an argument much less teach it to others.

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That and this isn't Bible teaching. This is the belief systems "own" teaching. This isn't written anywhere in the Bible. They make up a series of beliefs that belong only to them, independent of scripture. They have a disturbingly large number of these "made up" teachings.
Not rrobs specifically, many people just pass it on after it's been made up by somebody and given to them.

Nova2216 said:

When were your sins forgiven?

1. 1000s of years before you were ever born or sinned
2. Belief
3. confession
4. Repentance
5. Baptism

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None of the above.

Eph 1:4,

That's a big part of the Paul's mystery I mentioned earlier.

rrobs said:

None of the above.

Eph 1:4,

According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
​

That's a big part of the Paul's mystery I mentioned earlier.

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* So your sins were forgiven 1000s of years before the blood of Christ was ever shed.

Is that what you are telling me?

22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission. (Heb 9:22)


Rob, I think you are wrong again.

27 Things to Which Salvation Is Ascribed

1. Christ’s words (John 6:63).
2. The Holy Spirit (John 16:8; Titus 3:5).
3. Faith (Romans 10:10).
4. Repentance (Luke 13:3; 2 Peter 3:9).
5. Baptism (Mark 16:16; 1 Peter 3:21; Titus 3:5).
6. God (John 3:16; Titus 2:11).
7. Christ’s works (John 20:30–31).
8. Calling on His name (Acts 2:21).
9. Christ’s name (Acts 4:12).
10. Christ’s resurrection (Romans 4:25).
11. Christ’s death (Romans 5:6).
12. Hope (Romans 8:24).
13. Confession of faith (Romans 10:10).
14. Hearing (Romans 10:15–17).
15. Preaching (1 Corinthians 1:18).
16. Fire (1 Corinthians 3:15).
17. The gospel (1 Corinthians 15:1–2).
18. Love (Galatians 5:6).
19. Grace (Ephesians 2:8).
20. Ourselves (Philippians 2:12).
21. The love of the truth (2 Thessalonians 2:10).
22. Christ (1 Timothy 1:15).
23. Heeding and continuing in the doctrine (1 Timothy 4:16).
24. God’s mercy (Titus 3:5).
25. Obedience (Hebrews 5:9).
26. Christ’s blood (Hebrews 9:14).
27. Works of faith (James 2:24).

The question is not, which one of these will save; all combined insure us of salvation.


27 Things We Are Saved By…

By House to House

27 Things We Are Saved By…

Nova2216 said:

* So your sins were forgiven 1000s of years before the blood of Christ was ever shed.

Is that what you are telling me?

22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission. (Heb 9:22)


Rob, I think you are wrong again.

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Good point.

Nova2216 said:

* So your sins were forgiven 1000s of years before the blood of Christ was ever shed.

Is that what you are telling me?

22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission. (Heb 9:22)

Rob, I think you are wrong again.

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Better talk to God and tell him He is wrong. I didn't write Ephesians.

rrobs said:

Better talk to God and tell him He is wrong. I didn't write Ephesians.

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God said - without shedding of blood is no remission.
(Heb. 9:22)

Is it possible your understanding of Ephesians is incorrect?

Some people have the idea the Lord chose certain INDIVIDUALS to be saved and condemned other INDIVIDUALS.

What if the Lord chose a GROUP (or a CHURCH) in which he was going to SAVE PEOPLE before the universe was to begin instead of INDIVIDUALS? (Eph.1:8-11 ; 3:8-11) (Mt.16:18,19) (Rom.16:16)

It would be like someone offering a FREE MEAL at Luby's (cafe) on 2nd street on May 1.2020.

All those who wanted to partake of such a FREE MEAL would need to make plans to be there at that location and on that date.

Although the meal is FREE it will still cost them time, money and effort to get to the location.

That EFFORT does not negate that the meal is FREE.

All qualifications must be met if one wanted a FREE MEAL.


In the example above the INDIVIDUAL is making the DECISION to be involved in this meal.(not the owner)

It would be the INDIVIDUALS responsibility to be at the correct location and on time.

It would be his FAULT if he failed. (not the owners)


The churches of Christ (Rom.16:16)



Thanks

Nova2216 said:

Some people have the idea the Lord chose certain INDIVIDUALS to be saved and condemned other INDIVIDUALS.

What if the Lord chose a GROUP (or a CHURCH) in which he was going to SAVE PEOPLE before the universe was to begin instead of INDIVIDUALS? (Eph.1:8-11 ; 3:8-11) (Mt.16:18,19) (Rom.16:16)

It would be like someone offering a FREE MEAL at Luby's (cafe) on 2nd street on May 1.2020.

All those who wanted to partake of such a FREE MEAL would need to make plans to be there at that location and on that date.

Although the meal is FREE it will still cost them time, money and effort to get to the location.

That EFFORT does not negate that the meal is FREE.

All qualifications must be met if one wanted a FREE MEAL.


In the example above the INDIVIDUAL is making the DECISION to be involved in this meal.(not the owner)

It would be the INDIVIDUALS responsibility to be at the correct location and on time.

It would be his FAULT if he failed. (not the owners)

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Nova2216 said:

The churches of Christ (Rom.16:16)

Thanks

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Bear in mind that we could also have called ourselves the Church of God and it would still be Biblical.
1 Corinthians 1:2 To the church of God which is at Corinth, to those who have been sanctified in Christ Jesus, saints by calling, with all who in every place call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, their Lord and ours:

e.r.m. said:

Bear in mind that we could also have called ourselves the Church of God and it would still be Biblical.
1 Corinthians 1:2 To the church of God which is at Corinth, to those who have been sanctified in Christ Jesus, saints by calling, with all who in every place call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, their Lord and ours:

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I agree.

Nova2216 said:

God said - without shedding of blood is no remission.
(Heb. 9:22)

Is it possible your understanding of Ephesians is incorrect?

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Or your understanding of Hebrews might be incorrect. They are both pretty simple verses. The question becomes how to make them fit with each other.

rrobs said:

Or your understanding of Hebrews might be incorrect. They are both pretty simple verses. The question becomes how to make them fit with each other.

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That's a fair statement.

rrobs said:

Or your understanding of Hebrews might be incorrect. They are both pretty simple verses. The question becomes how to make them fit with each other.

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I'm not the one claiming my sins were forgiven BEFORE Jesus shed His blood. (Mt.26:28)

...without shedding of blood is no remission. (Heb.9:22)


Thanks

rrobs,

Eph 1:4,

According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
That's a big part of the Paul's mystery I mentioned earlier.

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You're equating chosen with being saved already. That's an assumption, not an established fact. That could easily mean that He chose them to be saved, not saved them already. You would need an explicit scripture to say they were saved at that time, or forgiven, or atoned for, etc. before the foundation of the world. You admitted that belief is necessary.

Hebrews 9:22 carries more weight because it says explicitly
"...And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission."

e.r.m. said:

That's a fair statement.

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I think there are other things in the Bible like that. By selecting the right verses and ignoring others, one can prove Jesus is God or that Jesus is not God, once saved always saved or not, God is love and light or He is responsible for evil things happening. There are many more things like that.

I guess that is why we must "rightly divide" the scriptures. If I recall, that "rightly dividing" is like a fine surgical scalpel that we must carefully wield.

One thing is for sure, God is perfect and His word is perfect. There can not be any contradictions. It's up to us to read it in such a way that there are no contradictions.

I think a couple of major causes of error is failing to understand to whom a particular part of scripture is written and when it was written. Many Christians take the entire Bible as written directly to them and for all times. For example, it is too easy to forget that the law was given to Israel, not the Gentiles or the Church of the Body of Christ. It is also easy to take what Jesus said to the Jews (to whom he came, not the gentiles) before he died as applying to the Church of the Body and after he rose from the dead. It seems all to often the general feeling is that nothing changed with his resurrection. If that were true most of us would be walking around blind and without hands!

Matt 5:28-30,


I must admit I myself would be blind and handless if it weren't for Jesus' resurrection and the outpouring of holy spirit. It's nice to be born again.

God bless

e.r.m. said:

rrobs,
You're equating chosen with being saved already. That's an assumption, not an established fact. That could easily mean that He chose them to be saved, not saved them already. You would need an explicit scripture to say they were saved at that time, or forgiven, or atoned for, etc. before the foundation of the world. You admitted that belief is necessary.

Hebrews 9:22 carries more weight because it says explicitly
"...And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission."

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Can they not both be true?

Rom 4:17,

In the beginning, nobody was actually saved but as far as God was concerned they were saved. He sees ahead.

Nova2216 said:

I'm not the one claiming my sins were forgiven BEFORE Jesus shed His blood. (Mt.26:28)

...without shedding of blood is no remission. (Heb.9:22)


Thanks

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All I did was quote Ephesians. I don't think I said anything at all about my sins being forgiven one way or the other. If so, let me know and I'll look at it to see what I was thinking.

It is important to understand God's foreknowledge and plan when reading certain verses, including Ephesians 1:4. If that doesn't say God chose us before the foundation of the world, what does it say?

As I said in my last post, we must make all verses fit together. There can be no contradictions.

God bless.

rrobs said:

Can they not both be true?

Rom 4:17,

(As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, [even] God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.
​

In the beginning, nobody was actually saved but as far as God was concerned they were saved. He sees ahead.

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That's theorizing, and you can't (accurately) build a doctrine on theorizing. You need an explicit verse to conform that.
And then there are verses like
1 Peter 2:9-10 But you are a CHOSEN RACE, A royal priesthood, A holy NATION, a PEOPLE FOR God's OWN POSSESSION, so that you may proclaim the excellencies of Him who has called you out of darkness into His marvelous light; [10] for you once were NOT A PEOPLE, but now you are THE PEOPLE OF GOD; you had NOT RECEIVED MERCY, but now you have RECEIVED MERCY

If they were saved since thousands of years before they were born, they wouldn't then not be a people of God and then be a people of God again. As well as other verses that talk about before and after (e.g. - Ephesians 2:3-5).

e.r.m. said:

That's theorizing, and you can't (accurately) build a doctrine on theorizing. You need an explicit verse to conform that.
And then there are verses like
1 Peter 2:9-10 But you are a CHOSEN RACE, A royal priesthood, A holy NATION, a PEOPLE FOR God's OWN POSSESSION, so that you may proclaim the excellencies of Him who has called you out of darkness into His marvelous light; [10] for you once were NOT A PEOPLE, but now you are THE PEOPLE OF GOD; you had NOT RECEIVED MERCY, but now you have RECEIVED MERCY

If they were saved since thousands of years before they were born, they wouldn't then not be a people of God and then be a people of God again. As well as other verses that talk about before and after (e.g. - Ephesians 2:3-5).

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How do you take Romans 4:17 and Ephesians 1:4? Do they have any bearing on what we are discussing?

Take care.