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The Destruction of America

Spartan

Spartan

Well-Known Member
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CG Didymus

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
Trailblazer said:
Another important point is that many of the OT prophecies apply to what will happen during the Messianic Age and they are prophecies that will be fulfilled by humans who will build the Kingdom of God on earth, not fulfilled by the Messiah/return of Christ, so there is no reason to believe that they should have all been fulfilled by Baha'u'llah, or by now, since the Messianic Age has barely begun.

It was understandable that the Jews rejected Jesus was their Messiah since He did not fulfill any of the Messianic prophecies. I am not saying the Jews should have rejected Jesus, they should have accepted Him as a Manifestation of God, which He clearly was.
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Why should they have accepted Jesus if, as you say, "He did not fulfill any of the Messianic prophecies"?
And, what are some of the OT, or Jewish Bible, prophecies that "will happen during the Messianic Age"?
 
Trailblazer

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Spartan said:
That false claim is addressed in the following article:

Why Israel Missed its Messiah

By the way, the link in the article to Why Isaiah 53 cannot refer to the nation of Israel, or anyone else, but must be the Messiah, has expired. That information, though, is available upon request.
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From the website:
The reasons most Jews reject Jesus involve numerous objections. The purpose of this article is to address the top three most common objections, which are:
1. Jesus didn’t qualify as the Jewish Messiah; he didn’t fulfill the Messianic prophecies.

I only want to address the first reason the Jews rejected Jesus as the Messiah. So, are you saying that Jesus has fulfilled all the Messianic Prophecies?
 
CG Didymus

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
CG Didymus said:
One Baha'i said the "Lamb" that was slain was The Bab because Jesus was crucified not "slain." A Baha'i said that the Greek word in Revelation was a different word than in other references of the "Lamb" being Jesus, so therefore, this "Lamb" is different. Is there anything official, or are these just a Baha'i making guesses? If Baha'i don't have anything solid, then the Lamb is Jesus and it is the Lamb that is returning... not The Bab or Baha'u'llah.

Rev 21:9 One of the seven angels who had the seven bowls full of the seven last plagues came and said to me, “Come, I will show you the bride, the wife of the Lamb.”
10 And he carried me away in the Spirit to a mountain great and high, and showed me the Holy City, Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God.
11 It shone with the glory of God, and its brilliance was like that of a very precious jewel, like a jasper, clear as crystal.
12 It had a great, high wall with twelve gates, and with twelve angels at the gates. On the gates were written the names of the twelve tribes of Israel.
13 There were three gates on the east, three on the north, three on the south and three on the west.
14 The wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them were the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.
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Trailblazer said:
If that is true, then the Lamb has to be the Bab or Baha'u'llah.
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Trailblazer said:
Baha'is have something very solid, we have Baha'u'llah.
By contrast, Christians don't have anything but a hope.
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The question was do the Baha'is have something "solid" as in something "official" and not just guesses about who the Lamb might be. If they don't, then there is no reason to doubt that the Lamb in Revelation is Jesus.

And the Baha'is have squashed the biggest and greatest hope Christians had...
1Cor. 15:12 But if it is preached that Christ has been raised from the dead, how can some of you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? 13 If there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised. 14 And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith. 15 More than that, we are then found to be false witnesses about God, for we have testified about God that he raised Christ from the dead. But he did not raise him if in fact the dead are not raised. 16 For if the dead are not raised, then Christ has not been raised either. 17 And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins. 18 Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ are lost. 19 If only for this life we have hope in Christ, we are of all people most to be pitied.​
So, for the Baha'is, Jesus is dead, did not rise from the dead, that is fantasy, and he is not the "Lamb" that is returning. The world is going through trials and tribulations, because they rejected a person who claimed he was the return of Christ. He has given the world the remedy for its ailments, and now it up to the people of the world to apply those things. Are you sure this time? 'Cause God seems to change his mind a lot.... and then blames people for messing up his message. Jesus is the Messiah? Well no, not really. Not The Messiah. He rose from the dead? No, not really. He conquered Satan? No, Satan not real. The Lamb is the King of Kings and Lord of Lords and will rule on the throne of David forever? No, the Lamb might be The Bab, but who knows? Baha'u'llah came to bring peace and harmony? Well no... not yet... someday... when people follow his teachings. For now, there will be death and destruction, because some of the few people that knew about Baha'u'llah rejected him. So because of those few, everybody has to suffer. Just swell. Thanks God... Can't wait to see what you will do next time you send a messenger.
 
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Trailblazer

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
CG Didymus said:
Why should they have accepted Jesus if, as you say, "He did not fulfill any of the Messianic prophecies"?
And, what are some of the OT, or Jewish Bible, prophecies that "will happen during the Messianic Age"?
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Here is a list that a Jewish poster sent me on another forum. Please bear in mind that the bulleted list is just an interpretation of the verses that are cited, what Jews believe the verses mean. Please note that the Jews believe the Messiah is coming just for them, to restore the Jewish people and the Torah. That is why many of the verses are interpreted to be about them, even though I do not believe those verses are about them, and neither do the Christians believe that. For example, Jews believe the peoples of the world will turn to the Jews for spiritual guidance, as if they are more spiritual than anyone else. This is the epitome of arrogance.

Messiah in Judaism

Many of the scriptural requirements concerning the Messiah, what he will do, and what will be done during his reign are located in the Book of Isaiah, although requirements are mentioned by other prophets as well. Views on whether Hebrew Bible passages are Messianic may vary from and among scholars of ancient Israel looking at their meaning in original context and from and among rabbinical scholars.
Messiah in Judaism - Wikipedia
 
Trailblazer

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
CG Didymus said:
The question was do the Baha'is have something "solid" as in something "official" and not just guesses about who the Lamb might be. If they don't, then there is no reason to doubt that the Lamb in Revelation is Jesus.
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There is no reason to believe that the Lamb in the Book of Revelation is Jesus because Jesus has not returned and Jesus never promised to return, not once in the NT. Moreover Jesus said His work was finished here and he was no more in the world (John 17:4, John 17:11). So as far as I am concerned the who belief that Jesus is returning is a sham and a fantasy.
CG Didymus said:
And the Baha'is have squashed the biggest and greatest hope Christians had...
1Cor. 15:12 But if it is preached that Christ has been raised from the dead, how can some of you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? 13 If there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised. 14 And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith. 15 More than that, we are then found to be false witnesses about God, for we have testified about God that he raised Christ from the dead. But he did not raise him if in fact the dead are not raised. 16 For if the dead are not raised, then Christ has not been raised either. 17 And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins. 18 Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ are lost. 19 If only for this life we have hope in Christ, we are of all people most to be pitied.​
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I guess the Christians will just have to make some adjustments, because no bodies will be rising from their graves. How could any rational person believe that anyway, that bodies long since dead will rise from graves? That goes against everything we know about the human body and the process of decomposition. They say "God is omnipotent so God can do anything" but why would He?
CG Didymus said:
So, for the Baha'is, Jesus is dead, did not rise from the dead, that is fantasy, and he is not the "Lamb" that is returning. The world is going through trials and tribulations, because they rejected a person who claimed he was the return of Christ. He has given the world the remedy for its ailments, and now it up to the people of the world to apply those things.
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You're darn tootin' !
And it will happen because it was prophesied and ordained by God.
CG Didymus said:
Are you sure this time?
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Was I ever unsure?
You might still be confused :confused: but I never was.
CG Didymus said:
Baha'u'llah came to bring peace and harmony? Well no... not yet... someday... when people follow his teachings. For now, there will be death and destruction, because some of the few people that knew about Baha'u'llah rejected him. So because of those few, everybody has to suffer.
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It is not only because of the few but also because of the many people who continue to reject Baha'u'llah to this very day, mainly the Christians and the Muslims as well as the Jews.

I guess you are referring to the kings and rulers who rejected Baha'u'llah? Well, He gave them fair warning what would happen as a result and it all happened just as He said it would.

“For what thou hast done, thy kingdom shall be thrown into confusion, and thine empire shall pass from thine hands, as a punishment for that which thou hast wrought. Then wilt thou know how thou hast plainly erred. Commotions shall seize all the people in that land, unless thou arisest to help this Cause, and followest Him Who is the Spirit of God (Jesus Christ) in this, the Straight Path. Hath thy pomp made thee proud? By My Life! It shall not endure; nay, it shall soon pass away, unless thou holdest fast by this firm Cord. We see abasement hastening after thee, whilst thou art of the heedless. It behoveth thee when thou hearest His Voice calling from the seat of glory to cast away all that thou possessest, and cry out: ‘Here am I, O Lord of all that is in heaven and all that is on earth!’ Proclamation of Baha'u'llah, pp. 18-20

“Take warning, and be not of them that are fast asleep. He it was who cast the Tablet of God behind him, when We made known unto him what the hosts of tyranny had caused Us to suffer. Wherefore, disgrace assailed him from all sides, and he went down to dust in great loss. Think deeply, O King, concerning him, and concerning them who, like unto thee, have conquered cities and ruled over men. The All-Merciful brought them down from their palaces to their graves.Be warned, be of them who reflect… O banks of the Rhine! We have seen you covered with gore, inasmuch as the swords of retribution were drawn against you; and you shall have another turn. And We hear the lamentations of Berlin, though she be today in conspicuous glory.”
Proclamation of Bahá’u’lláh, p, 39
 
Deeje

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
InvestigateTruth said:
The purpose of Jeremiah, is more to do with God testing humanity. He may say something, but then later, He can change the Plan. This is just to test those who object God, saying, He cannot change His plan. Whereas, God expects His servant to be obedient. If at one moment, He says so and so, but next, He changes what He had said, to no body is given the right to protest against the Will of God,
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I believe that you are confusing a “plan” with a “purpose”.
Plans are an intention, like planning a route to a destination.....a purpose is more about the destination than the ways and means that you use to get there. It can involve changing the planned route or your mode of transport or even the date of your arrival if it is necessary. None of those things alter the destination...only the way or time it takes you to get there.

Jeremiah 18:7-10 is God altering his planned route, but it makes no difference to the end result. Isaiah 55:11 is about God’s established, unalterable purpose to fulfill all that he intended to do with regard to human occupation of this planet. What he starts....he finishes.

If you don’t understand this basic and fundamental fact, then you lose the plot regarding why God put us here in the first place. It has people wandering off into all manner of confusing and conflicting paths.

InvestigateTruth said:
Isaiah 55:11 is also, in the same way. It means, God can accomplish what He wills. It has nothing to do with if God cannot change His own words. Remember, He had told Abraham to kill His son, then later He changed the plan. This was only to test Abraham, if He is obedient to whatever God asks
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Isaiah 55:11 is confirmation that whatever God provides as his stated purpose, will be carried out.....no ifs and no buts.

He might alter minor details along the route, but the destination is certain. The players in his purpose are also clearly stated....this does not change either. There is no place for other nations or religions or prophets to feature in that stated purpose......they can be beneficiaries, but not players. Covenants are legally binding agreements and God made his covenant with Abraham and to his offspring through Isaac and Jacob. One nation, under one God.

When God asked Abraham to sacrifice his son, which son was he told to sacrifice? It was not Ishmael. The promise God made to Abraham was to come to completion through Isaac and his son Jacob. Jesus was Jewish and no other people were involved in the production of their Messiah. Jesus was not just a human prophet....he was “the son of God” in the truest sense of the term. God produced this son to redeem the human race from the transgression of their forefather Adam. He had to be a sinless equivalent of Adam to offer his life to cancel the debt that Adam left for his children. Jesus’ life paid a ransom, which is a specified amount required to release a captive.
Who do Baha’i’s believe that Jesus was? How does Islam even factor into this equation? :shrug:

InvestigateTruth said:
So, back to the OP, God had promised to make the earth peaceful, by sending the Christ again, and in Bahai view, this already happened But when He came, mankind did not listen to His words and rejected Him, thus God as said before, He does not give mankind the good things (peace) He had said before. To me, that is clearly compatible with Bible.
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Please confirm that in the Bible.....with Christ’s first appearance, his own people rejected him because their religious leaders misled them about their expectations concerning his role. He told his disciples that he was going back to his Father but that he would return to take them “home” to be where he was....in heaven to rule with him as kings and priests. (Revelation 20:6) Who were to be their subjects and the ones who needed their priestly services?

Revelation 21:2-4 answers.....
“I also saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God and prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 With that I heard a loud voice from the throne say: “Look! The tent of God is with mankind, and he will reside with them, and they will be his people. And God himself will be with them. 4 And he will wipe out every tear from their eyes, and death will be no more, neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore. The former things have passed away.”

Christ’s second appearance was not to be like his first. It was in to be in the role of Judge as he separated “sheep” from “goats” and cleansed the earth of wickedness and all who practice it. (Matthew 25:31-33) He would usher in a new age of peace because all the divisive elements and opposers of his kingdom will have “passed away”....this is not a passive Christ vainly crying out to people who won’t listen.....this is a powerful king with a mighty army of angels, ready and able to fulfill God’s original purpose for his earth.

If we say, if Bahaullah was truely the Christ returned, He must have fulfilled all the expectations now, it is exactly the very reason, why the Jews rejected Jesus! Should we repeat the same?
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Bahaullah could not be Christ returned because the world is still full of the kind of people that Jesus said he would dispatch. The Kingdom of God was not to be established passively or through human agencies, but with a display of great power. Daniel foresaw the establishment of that Kingdom....telling us that in the days of the present world powers, God would bring in his Kingdom to “crush” all human rulership out of existence and replace them. (Daniel 2:44)

The thing that I most object to with the Baha’i Faith is their use of the Bible to support their beliefs, when so much of what the Bible teaches eliminates them completely from being part of God’s solution. Those parts of the Bible are never discussed. And when they are, they are conveniently dismissed or reinterpreted.

We are all free to believe as we wish, but please don’t use God’s word to justify what cannot be the truth. Keep to the words of your own prophet because his are not the words of Jesus, who is the only one identified in the Bible as the “Christ”. False Christ’s were part of the sign Jesus gave on the end times. (Matthew 24:5)
Bahaullah may well be fulfilling Bible prophesy in a way that ‘misleads many’.

That is how I view things....purely from God’s word.
 
Spartan

Spartan

Well-Known Member
Trailblazer said:
From the website:
The reasons most Jews reject Jesus involve numerous objections. The purpose of this article is to address the top three most common objections, which are:
1. Jesus didn’t qualify as the Jewish Messiah; he didn’t fulfill the Messianic prophecies.

I only want to address the first reason the Jews rejected Jesus as the Messiah. So, are you saying that Jesus has fulfilled all the Messianic Prophecies?
Click to expand...

Did you read the article? It says Jesus fulfilled a good number of them during his first coming and is said to fulfill the remainder at the 2nd Coming.
 
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Brickjectivity

Brickjectivity

wind and rain touch not this brain
Staff member
Premium Member
Tony Bristow-Stagg said:
This is in a debate section so all can discuss, it is not a debate I am after, but solutions offered to race disunity...
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Make it clear to people, especially young people, that enjoying things communally is not a waste of time. Sports, dancing, music, arts, hobbies, common books and all sorts of shareable things do matter and give people something to share in common. A lot of young people get the idea that they need to work work work all the time. Communal fun is not a waste of time. Having shared experiences, particularly across ethnic backgrounds might help melt imagined ethnic barriers.
 
Spartan

Spartan

Well-Known Member
Trailblazer said:
There is no reason to believe that the Lamb in the Book of Revelation is Jesus because Jesus has not returned and Jesus never promised to return, not once in the NT.
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Incorrect.

“At the time they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. When these things begin to take place, stand up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near.” - Luke 21:27-28

IF that's not clear enough we have Matthew's take on that:

Mat 24:3 - As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately. “Tell us,” they said, “when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?”

Jesus replies in Mat 24:27

"For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man."

Then there's Jesus in Matthew 26:

Mat 26:63 -But Jesus remained silent. The high priest said to him, “I charge you under oath by the living God: Tell us if you are the Messiah, the Son of God.”

Mat 26:64 - “You have said so,” Jesus replied. “But I say to all of you: From now on you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven." (note Daniel 7:13-14)

Mat -26:65 - Then the high priest tore his clothes and said, “He has spoken blasphemy!

Of course you can deny these. That would be your automatic response. But I'll stick with what I presented above.
 
Trailblazer

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Deeje said:
The players in his purpose are also clearly stated....this does not change either. There is no place for other nations or religions or prophets to feature in that stated purpose......they can be beneficiaries, but not players.
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You are assuming that God's stated purpose is all contained within the Bible, but there is no reason to assume that except that you want it to be so, just like all Christians.

Jews of course have their own version of this....It ended with the Torah and everything humanity will ever need is in the Torah. Obviously the Jews and the Christians cannot both be right, but they can both be wrong. Moreover, as there are almost as many Muslims in the world as Christians, it is highly unlikely that all of them are wrong bout the Qur'an. And of course if the Baha'is are right, all of these religions are true so all can sit under the same umbrella of divinely revealed religions.

All people are free to decide which scenario makes the most sense to them. Would an All-Loving and All-Merciful and Just God exclude two thirds of the world population from salvation as Christians believe would be the case?
 
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Spartan

Spartan

Well-Known Member
Trailblazer said:
Would an All-Loving and All-Merciful and Just God exclude two thirds of the world population from salvation as Christians believe would be the case?
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What Bible do you read? There's plenty of condemnations (no love) for the wicked in Judaism.

Tell me: What's the name of the place in Daniel 12:2 where people awake from the dead and find themselves in a place of "shame and everlasting contempt"??

Dan 12:2 - "Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt."
 
Trailblazer

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Deeje said:
Bahaullah could not be Christ returned because the world is still full of the kind of people that Jesus said he would dispatch.
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Unless He was a liar Jesus will not return because He said His work was finished here and He was no more in the world.

John 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

And of course, Jesus also said that His kingdom is not of this world and that He was not a king..

John 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

John 18:37 Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.

But of course Christians always have a way out of accepting what Jesus said clearly and plainly. :rolleyes:

In John 18:36, when Christ claimed His kingdom was “not of this world,” He meant that His kingdom would not originate from the evil world system underlying today's governments. His reign would restore earth's governments to God (Colossians 1:20).Dec 5, 2014

What does “my kingdom is not of this world” mean? | For What ..
 
Thief

Thief

Rogue Theologian
Tony Bristow-Stagg said:
“The time has come for humanity to hoist the standard of the oneness of the human world, so that dogmatic formulas and superstitions may end.”
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a common accord?

years in the future if Man should live that long

the same ability to see things in more ways than one way
is the source of the problem

people CHOOSE to be different
chasing after what THEY desire life to be

America is an economically based scheme of things
if the scheme of things include ALL of the people
most of the strife would calm

apathy is the enemy
 
Thief

Thief

Rogue Theologian
but then there's that other problem

earn your keep by the sweat of your brow

some people too far up the monetary ladder to do so....
and many people too far down to make ends meet

and let's not forget.....we have parasites among us
no desire to perform
but they want a paycheck....none the less
 
Trailblazer

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Spartan said:
Did you read the article? It says Jesus fulfilled a good number of them during his first coming and is said to fulfill the remainder at the 2nd Coming.
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You cannot claim something before it has happened. Can you imagine if our justice system operated that way?

Jesus has not returned and there is no reason to expect that He will ever return since He said that His work was finished here (John 17:4) and that He was no more in the world (John 17:11). There is really no way around those verses unless you want to call into question the accuracy of the Bible, but if you do that, how many other verses in the Bible might also be inaccurate?
 
Spartan

Spartan

Well-Known Member
Trailblazer said:
You cannot claim something before it has happened. Can you imagine if our justice system operated that way?

Jesus has not returned and there is no reason to expect that He will ever return since He said that His work was finished here (John 17:4) and that He was no more in the world (John 17:11). There is really no way around those verses unless you want to call into question the accuracy of the Bible, but if you do that, how many other verses in the Bible might also be inaccurate?
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See my previous post that refutes your claim:

The Destruction of America
 
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Trailblazer

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Spartan said:
“At the time they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. When these things begin to take place, stand up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near.” - Luke 21:27-28
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There is no reason to assume the Son of Man refers to Jesus and every reason to assume it does not refer to Jesus, since none of the "Son of Man in the clouds" verses are written in the first person, always in the third person. And of course we also have Jesus saying His work was finished here and He was no more in the world (John 17:4, John 17:11). Christians cannot bring Jesus back by hoping He will come back.

The title ‘Son of man’ is symbolic of the perfect humanity that Jesus represented, but it does not apply exclusively to Jesus. It ultimately comes from the Book of Daniel, where it refers to the Messiah. It is a Baha’i teaching that the title applies to both Jesus and Baha’u’llah.
 
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