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Fulfillment of Prophecy in the New Testament

Samael_Khan

Goosebender
In general, it seems that most folks in this situation read the text allegorically. But none that I know of apply that same label ( allegorical ) to the messiah claimant in the conclusion. So it makes for a weak argument.

Plus for them to say that it is allegorical, one has to change all the other verses linked to the context or narrative as allegorical which isn't done.
 

Samael_Khan

Goosebender
@Israel Khan I think the next way to tackle this issue, after everything else that's been brought here, is to find all those sites that say that Jesus fulfilled XX prophecies in the OT then tackle 'em one by one.

Which I'll do tomorrow. :)

I also have the JW books so I can add those points to the mix. I think I might also have Seventh Day Adventist books digitally which might contribute. So I will look up points as well and relay them.
 

Samael_Khan

Goosebender
What is Yeshayahu 53 about?
There's a list made by missionaries claiming that even rabbinical sources say that chapter 53 is about the messiah (Jesus).
Here's what the sources they bring really say:
Alshech – conveniently, missionaries only bring part of the quote. Full quote: “Our Rabbis with one voice accept and affirm the opinion that the prophet is speaking of the Messiah, and we shall ourselves also adhere to the same view: for the Messiah is of course David, who, as is well known, was ‘anointed’, and there is a verse in which the prophet, speaking in the name of the Lord, says expressly, ‘My servant David shall be king over them’. The expression my servant, therefore, can be justly referred to David…” (article on the subject by Jews for Judaism)

Abarbanel – states clearly, over and over, that the Christians are mistaken that this chapter would ever refer to Jesus and proceeds to take apart the Christian claim, both of their concept of original sin and of the idea that this refers to Jesus receiving the burden of mankind’s sins.

After that, he states: “However, the way of Yonatan [Targum Yonatan] and our Sages of blessed memory that interpreted this about our Meshiach, I do not know if they meant for this to refer to Meshiach ben Yosef that they accepted would come in the beginning of the redemption, or if they meant Meshiach ben David that would come afterwards, but in either case, the simple understanding of the text cannot stand such an explanation, for if it is Meshiach ben Yosef, with his death at the start of his time and his wars, it cannot be said [about him] “Be exalted and raised to great heights.” For he shall not rise to that level and will not remain there [etc]…and if they were to interpret it to refer to Meshiach ben David it too will be hard, as he says: “So marred was his appearance, unlike that of man, form, beyond human semblance” for Isaiah said “Behold My servant, whom I uphold; Mine elect, in whom My soul delighteth” and in another place he was called a shoot from the roof of Yishai and he said “And the spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD.” Not that he shall be “despised, shunned by men” [etc]…and even our sages of blessed memory with that they interpreted the verse “Behold, My servant shall prosper”, the rest of the verses they interpreted about Israel, and likewise did Yonatan that interpreted the first verses about the Meshiach and the rest of the verses on the righteous people [etc] and the Ramban [Nachmanides], with that he interpreted it about the Meshiach, wrote that in his view this was said about the Nation of Israel. [etc]” (source in Hebrew)

Yafeth ben Ali – Karaite source, irrelevant to most Jews in my opinion (though if someone wishes to tackle it, be my guest).

Avraham Farissol – first brings the Christian view in his book Magen Avraham (a book that argues against Christianity), and then proceeds to write: “And when we begin from the start of the subject in it’s order [previously he stated that a Christian theologian by the name of Geronimo used to conveniently bring only parts of the chapter] from “Behold, My servant shall prosper” and explain first the intention of the prophet and know who this servant is that the prophet attributes this section to, then will it be known the length of the subject in its entirety on its subject and there will not be learnt from it invalid [ideas]…[then he continues and brings other views]…but we shall interpret it as referring to Israel, certainly, for [he] called them, the prophet, and gave them the title servant and in a singular tongue in many of his previous prophecies we find the prophet speaking to Israel by the title of a singular servant.” [and he continues to bring more proofs for this]. (source in Hebrew, it's right on pg. 1-2)

Targum Yonatan – while the Targum does refer to the chapter’s subject matter as the Meshiach, missionaries conveniently only bring that one verse. What about 53:5? “But he was wounded because of our sins, Crushed because of our iniquities. He bore the chastisement that made us whole, And by his bruises we were healed.” On this the Targum writes: “But he will build up the Holy Place [the Temple], which has been polluted for our sins, and delivered to the enemy for our iniquities; and by his instruction peace shall be increased upon us, and by devotion to his words, our sins will be forgiven us.” - and of course, the Abarbanel and others interpreted the Targum of chapter 53 to referring to the righteous men of Israel. (English translation of the Targum)

Gersonides – brings the sages’ Midrash that the verse “Behold, My servant shall prosper” refers to the Meshiach, but doesn’t bring any other part of the text. This is just a hint he uses to show the greatness of the Meshiach in comparison to Moshe in Numbers 24. (source in Hebrew)

Tanchuma – says verse 52:13 is about the Meshiach, but only that verse (see above explanation from the Abarbanel). (source)

Maimonides – refers to the verse, brings the interpretation that it refers to the Meshiach, but not the rest of the chapter. Moreover, the quote comes from a section of the letter that’s dedicated to explaining, among other things, why Jesus cannot be the prophesied messiah. (source, from the famous Iggeret Teiman)

Yalkut Shimoni – again, only interprets verse 52:13. (source in Hebrew)

[Second] Tanchuma – [unable to find the original quote source]

Sanhedrin 98b – misquote: “Messiah ...what is his name? The Rabbis say,'The leprous one'; those of the house of the Rabbi (Jehuda Hanassi, the author of the Mishna, 135-200) say: 'Cholaja' (The sickly), for it says, 'Surely he has borne our sicknesses' etc. (Isa.53,4).”

The real quote says: “And the Rabbis say: The leper of the house of Rabbi [Rabbi Yehuda HaNasi] is his name, as it is stated: “Indeed our illnesses he did bear and our pains he endured; yet we did esteem him injured, stricken by God, and afflicted” (Isaiah 53:4). Also, the Talmud only says that this verse hints to the name of the Meshiach but doesn’t say that the entire chapter is about the Meshiach. (source)

Sifre – [unable to find the original quote source]

Rabbi Elazar Hakalir – “"Our righteous Messiah has departed from us. Horror has seized us and we have no one to justify us. He has borne our transgressions and the yoke of our iniquities, and is wounded because of our transgressions. He bore our sins upon His shoulders that we may find pardon for our iniquity. We shall be healed by His wounds, at the time when the Eternal will recreate Him a new creature. Oh bring Him up from the circle of the earth, raise Him up from Seir, that we may hear Him the second time.”

Conveniently the quote leaves out the parts in which the text refers to the possibility of repentance [of Israel] and the building of the Temple (which is also related to repentance). This is, after all, from a Yom Kippur liturgical hymn. (can be found in Machzor Yom Kippur, one example)

Rabbi Moshe Hadarshan (the preacher) – entirely unclear where the quote comes from. We have no books that we’re 100% certain are those of Rabbi Moshe. There’s one book called Beresheet Rabti which is thought to be a collection of some of his Misrashim, but nowhere there is anything remotely similar to the quote brought. Next, part of a possibly different version of Beresheet Rabti called Beresheet Rabbah was brought by a Christian missionary named Raymond Martini in his book Pugio Fidei, but the Abarbanel who knew of Martini’s book and not the Beresheet Rabbah believed it [the Beresheet Rabbah part] to have been a forgery. (source in Hebrew) (Beresheet Rabti source in Hebrew)

Pesikta – [unable to find the original quote source]
If I'm not mistaken, nowhere in any of these sources is it stated that the chapter in its entirety refers to the messiah. At most, one or two verses.​

Interestingly, or rather, conveniently, the list does not provide any of the original sources. It took me several hours to track down most of them - but I was unable to find all of them.

This is very useful. Thanks. It is evident that if the person making a claim of what someone said doesn't have a bibliography then they might be deceiving people.
 

Samael_Khan

Goosebender
That'd be great. :)

Yeah, they are doomsday groups so it would be interesting to check out their interpretation of Daniel especially which goes beyond the Messiah. In fact Daniel is a core book regarding the Messiah and the end times.

These two groups also self reference a lot, including their specific group as fulfilling the prophecy specifically during the 1800s and 1900s. Exploring their interpretation will also help with understanding similar groups viewpoints because they are similar but veer off at key points.
 

Harel13

Am Yisrael Chai
Staff member
Premium Member
@Harel13

I was shocked by the differences between the KJV and the Driver-Neubauer Translation in your below link:

Isaiah 53 — Comparison of Translations

Why the difference in the Aramaic version?
Two reasons:
1. Any translation is also a form of commentary. So translations to two different languages will lead to changes in meaning.
2. The Aramaic one is based on Jewish traditions of the verses. The KJV is known to be biased towards the Christian interpretations. That's what Jews call stuffing Jesus into every verse in the Tanach.
 

Samael_Khan

Goosebender
Two reasons:
1. Any translation is also a form of commentary. So translations to two different languages will lead to changes in meaning.
2. The Aramaic one is based on Jewish traditions of the verses. The KJV is known to be biased towards the Christian interpretations. That's what Jews call stuffing Jesus into every verse in the Tanach.

I understand point one. Point two I understand to a certain extent. Then isn't the Jewish one and the Christian one equally biased? How would Jesus be "stuffed" into the OT through translation?
 

Harel13

Am Yisrael Chai
Staff member
Premium Member
Then isn't the Jewish one and the Christian one equally biased? How would Jesus be "stuffed" into the OT through translation?
Yeah, I suppose that could be argued. However, what Christians did was take a character, map him out in the NT based on some ideas they read in the Tanach, then went back again, translating the Tanach into the OT in a manner that proves the NT's view. Jews just didn't have this back and forth because the same ideas were always believed.
 

Samael_Khan

Goosebender
Yeah, I suppose that could be argued. However, what Christians did was take a character, map him out in the NT based on some ideas they read in the Tanach, then went back again, translating the Tanach into the OT in a manner that proves the NT's view. Jews just didn't have this back and forth because the same ideas were always believed.

Do you have examples of this?
 

Harel13

Am Yisrael Chai
Staff member
Premium Member
Do you have examples of this?
I brought some in post 39. Here's the first one:

1. Psalms 22:17 - Tanach:
"For dogs have encompassed me; a company of evil-doers have inclosed me; like a lion, they are at my hands and my feet."
NT version (KJV, similarly, many other versions): 22:16:
"For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet."

The mythos of Jesus includes the Via Dolorosa segment which portrayed Jesus as humiliated on his way to the cross, until finally he is crossed by piercing his hands and feet as he is nailed to the cross. The above verse shows a figure in Psalms being surrounded by evil men. Came the Christians and said: hey, this sounds like it could sort of maybe fit with our myth, but it needs some embellishment - so they changed a couple of words - but that changes the meaning significantly.

It was an easy thing to do in King James' time because most people- even those who knew how to read English - couldn't read the original Hebrew, and Jews, who could, weren't bothering with their own translations into English.
 

Samael_Khan

Goosebender
I brought some in post 39. Here's the first one:

1. Psalms 22:17 - Tanach:
"For dogs have encompassed me; a company of evil-doers have inclosed me; like a lion, they are at my hands and my feet."
NT version (KJV, similarly, many other versions): 22:16:
"For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet."

The mythos of Jesus includes the Via Dolorosa segment which portrayed Jesus as humiliated on his way to the cross, until finally he is crossed by piercing his hands and feet as he is nailed to the cross. The above verse shows a figure in Psalms being surrounded by evil men. Came the Christians and said: hey, this sounds like it could sort of maybe fit with our myth, but it needs some embellishment - so they changed a couple of words - but that changes the meaning significantly.

It was an easy thing to do in King James' time because most people- even those who knew how to read English - couldn't read the original Hebrew, and Jews, who could, weren't bothering with their own translations into English.

So lets focus on this verse.

I just read this:

They have pierced my hands and my feet - Wikipedia.

Apparently the rendering is unclear and the original word used could be translated "like a lion" or "dug".

I must check post 39 again. This is getting interesting.
 

Harel13

Am Yisrael Chai
Staff member
Premium Member
I'm sure you noticed this bit:

To explain how divergent translations from the biblical text came about, Gregory Vall, a Christian professor of Religious Studies at Trinity Western University, speculated that the Septuagint translators were faced with כארו; i.e. as in the Masoretic text, but ending with the longer letter vav (ו) rather than the shorter yod (י), giving כארו ka'aru. This is not a word in the Hebrew language, but without the aleph it becomes כרו, "dug", "mined", or "excavated".[2] Biblical and Hebrew scholars, such as Brent Strawn, support the Masoretic Text reading of כארי ("like a lion"), based on textual analysis (i.e. derivatives of the word "lion" appear numerous times in the psalm and are a common metaphor in the Hebrew Bible), as well as its appearance in virtually every ancient Hebrew manuscript.[3] An exception to this is a Psalms fragment from Nahal Hever, where the word in question is written as כארו, karu, which becomes "dug" when omitting the aleph, as Vall had previously speculated. This finding is called into question by the Nahal Hever scribe's other numerous misspellings, such as one in the very same sentence, where ידיה is written instead of the correct ידי, making the Hebrew word ידי yadai "my hands" into ידיה yadeha, “her hands".[4]

In Peter Craigie's view, "MT’s כָּאֲרִי ('like a lion') presents numerous problems and can scarcely be correct." Reading the consonantal text כארו or כרו, he says that the Septuagint “they pierced my hands and feet” (ὤρυξαν) "may perhaps presuppose a verb כרה, 'to dig,' or כור, 'to pierce, bore'." Craigie notes alternative possibilities for the verb אָרָה (“to pluck, pick clean”), or כרה, “to be shrunken, shriveled”, but follows E. J. Kissane's proposal of an original text כלו, “consumed”, changed to כרו (noting the occasional interchange of ל and ר), with the nuance "my hands and my feet were exhausted".[5]
That may have been what was going on in the KJVists' head: let's see, how can we twist this to be talking about Jesus? That pesky extra Alef must be a mistake. Yeah, people are totally gonna buy that.

Edit: look, these experts - they admit that the word כארו is not in Hebrew. Any Hebrew speaker will tell you that - so the answer? It must be a spelling mistake.
 
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Samael_Khan

Goosebender
I'm sure you noticed this bit:

To explain how divergent translations from the biblical text came about, Gregory Vall, a Christian professor of Religious Studies at Trinity Western University, speculated that the Septuagint translators were faced with כארו; i.e. as in the Masoretic text, but ending with the longer letter vav (ו) rather than the shorter yod (י), giving כארו ka'aru. This is not a word in the Hebrew language, but without the aleph it becomes כרו, "dug", "mined", or "excavated".[2] Biblical and Hebrew scholars, such as Brent Strawn, support the Masoretic Text reading of כארי ("like a lion"), based on textual analysis (i.e. derivatives of the word "lion" appear numerous times in the psalm and are a common metaphor in the Hebrew Bible), as well as its appearance in virtually every ancient Hebrew manuscript.[3] An exception to this is a Psalms fragment from Nahal Hever, where the word in question is written as כארו, karu, which becomes "dug" when omitting the aleph, as Vall had previously speculated. This finding is called into question by the Nahal Hever scribe's other numerous misspellings, such as one in the very same sentence, where ידיה is written instead of the correct ידי, making the Hebrew word ידי yadai "my hands" into ידיה yadeha, “her hands".[4]

In Peter Craigie's view, "MT’s כָּאֲרִי ('like a lion') presents numerous problems and can scarcely be correct." Reading the consonantal text כארו or כרו, he says that the Septuagint “they pierced my hands and feet” (ὤρυξαν) "may perhaps presuppose a verb כרה, 'to dig,' or כור, 'to pierce, bore'." Craigie notes alternative possibilities for the verb אָרָה (“to pluck, pick clean”), or כרה, “to be shrunken, shriveled”, but follows E. J. Kissane's proposal of an original text כלו, “consumed”, changed to כרו (noting the occasional interchange of ל and ר), with the nuance "my hands and my feet were exhausted".[5]
That may have been what was going on in the KJVists' head: let's see, how can we twist this to be talking about Jesus? That pesky extra Alef must be a mistake. Yeah, people are totally gonna buy that.

Edit: look, these experts - they admit that the word כארו is not in Hebrew. Any Hebrew speaker will tell you that - so the answer? It must be a spelling mistake.

That is a good point.

Edit: I was just checking the alternate translations and not the reason why. So this would be evidence that the OT was deliberately manipulated to suit Christian Theology.
 
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Harel13

Am Yisrael Chai
Staff member
Premium Member
Strap in your seat belts, here's my commentary on 55 Old Testament Prophecies about Jesus | Jesus Film Project

Note: I use a lot of sarcasm, but at the same time, I'm dead-serious.

Part 1: Prophecies of Jesus's birth

1. The nations will be blessed through Abraham's lineage
Prophecy:
"I will bless those who bless you,
and whoever curses you I will curse;
and all peoples on earth
will be blessed through you" (Genesis 12:3).

Fulfillment:
"And you are heirs of the prophets and of the covenant God made with your fathers. He said to Abraham, ‘Through your offspring all peoples on earth will be blessed.’ When God raised up his servant, he sent him first to you to bless you by turning each of you from your wicked ways” (Acts 3:25–26).​

Harelian commentary:
What "fulfillment"? What world-wide blessings have we seen since Jesus' death? Was there some sort of wave of purification emitting from Jesus' body when he died (Po Wushi-finger-hold style)? No. Death and sickness and poverty continue to this day.

2. God's covenant with Isaac's ancestors
Prophecy:
"Then God said, 'Yes, but your wife Sarah will bear you a son, and you will call him Isaac. I will establish my covenant with him as an everlasting covenant for his descendants after him'" (Genesis 17:19).

Fulfillment:
"Nor because they are his descendants are they all Abraham's children. On the contrary, 'It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned'” (Romans 9:7).​

Harelian commentary:
Okay. What. I haven't checked the Romans context, but I assume this is some of that spiritual-Israel mumbo-jumbo. Because the Nation of Israel is counted through Israel, son of Isaac, son of Abraham, while the Midianites are counted through Midian, son of Abraham and the Ishmaelites are counted through Ishmael, son of Abraham, and Edomites are counted through Esau, son of Isaac, son of Abraham, that means that whoever isn't a descendant of Isaac, or Abraham for that matter, is also still a member of Israel? How does that work out? Answer: 'CAUSE REASONS!!! (pardon the use of capitals).

3. The nations will be blessed through Jacob's offspring
Prophecy:
"Your descendants will be like the dust of the earth, and you will spread out to the west and to the east, to the north and to the south. All peoples on earth will be blessed through you and your offspring" (Genesis 28:14).

Fulfillment:
Jacob is part of Jesus’ genealogy.

"the son of Jacob,
the son of Isaac, the son of Abraham,
the son of Terah, the son of Nahor" (Luke 3:34)​

Harelian commentary:
Okay, wow. Same as with the first prophecy. Also, every natural-Jew is a descendant of Jacob. In what way is this a prophecy of anything relating specifically to Jesus, or even specifically to the messiah?

4. The scepter will come through Judah
Prophecy:
"The scepter will not depart from Judah,
nor the ruler's staff from between his feet,
until he to whom it belongs shall come
and the obedience of the nations shall be his" (Genesis 49:10).

Fulfillment:
Judah is part of Jesus's genealogy.

"the son of Amminadab, the son of Ram,
the son of Hezron, the son of Perez,
the son of Judah" (Luke 3:33)​

Harelian commentary:

Let's see, Jesus genealogy...here it is:
43582_4b97e7c78b22decbcd54e5687b6dbb44.png

(Contradiction: Which geneaology of Jesus is correct?)
And so, Joseph, adoptive father of Jesus, may be a descendant of David. What does that say about Jesus? Absolutely nothing.

5. David's offspring will have an eternal kingdom
Prophecy:
"When your days are over and you rest with your ancestors, I will raise up your offspring to succeed you, your own flesh and blood, and I will establish his kingdom. He is the one who will build a house for my Name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom forever" (2 Samuel 7:12–13).

Fulfillment:
"This is the genealogy of Jesus the Messiah the son of David, the son of Abraham" (Matthew 1:1)​

Harelian commentary:

Jesus has yet to do anything - in life or in death - that has to with being a king. Jesus, at best, was mockingly crowned as King of the Jews. Other than that, nothing happened (interestingly Jews already had a King at the time - Herod Agrippa - Wikipedia).

6. A virgin will give birth, and he will be called Immanuel (God with us)
Prophecy:
"Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: The virgin will conceive and give birth to a son, and will call him Immanuel" (Isaiah 7:14).

Fulfillment:
"The angel answered, “The Holy Spirit will come on you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. So the holy one to be born will be called the Son of God" (Luke 1:35).​

Harelian commentary:
This is already famously well-known. It does not say virgin. The Hebrew word for virgin, betulah, is also used by Isaiah, elsewhere.

7. The Messiah will end up in Egypt
Prophecy:
"When Israel was a child, I loved him,
and out of Egypt I called my son" (Hosea 11:1).

Fulfillment:
"So he [Joseph] got up, took the child and his mother during the night and left for Egypt, where he stayed until the death of Herod. And so was fulfilled what the Lord had said through the prophet: 'Out of Egypt I called my son'" (Matthew 2:14–15).​

Harelian commentary:
I'm sorry, you have to be a fool to accept these verses as having any correlation: Hosea speaks about the Nation of Israel being taken out of Egypt during the Exodus - that's not a prophecy - while Matthew describes Jesus and his family leaving Egypt as a fulfillment of a verse that isn't even a prophecy...

8. The Christ will be born in Bethlehem
Prophecy:
"But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah,
though you are small among the clans of Judah,
out of you will come for me
one who will be ruler over Israel,
whose origins are from of old,
from ancient times." (Micah 5:2).

Fulfillment:
"When he had called together all the people's chief priests and teachers of the law, he asked them where the Messiah was to be born. 'In Bethlehem in Judea,' they replied, 'for this is what the prophet has written:

"'But you, Bethlehem, in the land of Judah,
are by no means least among the rulers of Judah;
for out of you will come a ruler
who will shepherd my people Israel.'" (Matthew 2:4–6).​

Harelian commentary:

As one can see, Matthew went to some lengths to subtly change the words of the Tanachic prophecy. Why? What bothers him about the term "Ephratah"? Is it because Ephrat/Ephratim means nobility and Jesus' family was by no means a noble family? And what was wrong about describing Bethlehem Ephratah as a small clan, so this was changed to "by no means least among the rulers of Judah"? Is it maybe, just maybe, because there were a lot of people with Davidic ancestry at the time, including the Judean Princes of the Sanhedrin at the time, which kind of contradicts the smallness of the clan? Or perhaps the town of Bethlehem itself wasn't quite so small at the time?
 
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Harel13

Am Yisrael Chai
Staff member
Premium Member
Part 2: Prophecies about Jesus's ministry

9. Christ's ministry will destroy the devil's work
Prophecy:
"And I will put enmity
between you and the woman,
and between your offspring and hers;
he will crush your head,
and you will strike his heel" (Genesis 3:15).

Fulfillment:
"The one who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil’s work" (1 John 3:8).​

Harelian commentary:
No "devil" is mentioned in Genesis. Just a nachash, a snake. Okay, so this creature is going to crush man's head. Did that happen to Jesus yet or this something that'll happen in the apocalypse?

10. Jesus will have a sinless, blemish-free life and ministry
Prophecy:
"The animals you choose must be year-old males without defect, and you may take them from the sheep or the goats" (Exodus 12:5).

Fulfillment:
"How much more, then, will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself unblemished to God, cleanse our consciences from acts that lead to death, so that we may serve the living God!" (Hebrews 9:14)

Harelian commentary:
Sooo...verses about what kind of sacrificial animals refer to human sacrifices as well - or are humans animals? What am I missing here? And they're also prophecies, you say. Hmm...
Blemish-free life? I'm not so sure. Vigilantism by running amok in the courtyard of the Temple before any sort of fair, Jewish trial isn't exactly the definition of righteous, according to Torah. Healing a blind man (which is not a life-threatening disease) on Shabbat, just because you can? Yeah, that's fine, do whatever you want and expect no ramifications.

11. The Messiah will be humbled in order to serve mankind
Prophecy:
"You have made them a little lower than the angels
and crowned them with glory and honor.
You made them rulers over the works of your hands;
you put everything under their feet" (Psalm 8:5–6)

Fulfillment:
"It is not to angels that he has subjected the world to come, about which we are speaking. But there is a place where someone has testified:

'What is mankind that you are mindful of them,
a son of man that you care for him?
You made them a little lower than the angels;
you crowned them with glory and honor
and put everything under their feet.'

"In putting everything under them, God left nothing that is not subject to them. Yet at present we do not see everything subject to them. But we do see Jesus, who was made lower than the angels for a little while, now crowned with glory and honor because he suffered death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone" (Hebrews 2:5–9).

Harelian commentary:
When I look at Pslam 8, I see a chapter speaking about the greatness of God. I don't see anything referring to any specific person (unless you want to argue that any mention of the word "Enosh" refers to Enosh, grandson of Adam), just to a state in which mankind is in. No prophecy here, nothing fulfilled there.

12. Jesus would become the perfect sacrifice
Prophecy:
"Sacrifice and offering you did not desire—
but my ears you have opened—
burnt offerings and sin offerings you did not require.
Then I said, “Here I am, I have come—
it is written about me in the scroll.
I desire to do your will, my God;
your law is within my heart" (Psalm 40:6–8).

Fulfillment:
"Therefore, when Christ came into the world, he said:

'Sacrifice and offering you did not desire,
but a body you prepared for me;
with burnt offerings and sin offerings
you were not pleased.'
"Then I said, ‘Here I am—it is written about me in the scroll—
I have come to do your will, my God.’”

"First he said, 'Sacrifices and offerings, burnt offerings and sin offerings you did not desire, nor were you pleased with them'—though they were offered in accordance with the law. Then he said, 'Here I am, I have come to do your will.' He sets aside the first to establish the second. And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all" (Hebrews 10:5–10).

Harelian commentary:
a. "your law is within my heart" - the Hebrew actually reads "my intestines" - presumably this was changed because of all "the law is in our hearts nonsense". b. Hebrews misquotes the actual verses. Why?

13. Jesus would preach righteousness to Israel
Prophecy:
"I proclaim your saving acts in the great assembly;
I do not seal my lips, Lord,
as you know" (Psalm 40:9).

Fulfillment:
"From that time on Jesus began to preach, 'Repent, for the kingdom of heaven has come near'" (Matthew 4:17).

Harelian commentary:
Yeah...no. There's a difference between announcing to people of the greatness of God and telling people to repent because of a coming of a kingdom of heaven, whatever that means.

14. Jesus would teach in parables
Prophecy:
"My people, hear my teaching;
listen to the words of my mouth.
I will open my mouth with a parable;
I will utter hidden things, things from of old" (Psalm 78:1–2)

Fulfillment:
"Jesus spoke all these things to the crowd in parables; he did not say anything to them without using a parable. So was fulfilled what was spoken through the prophet:

'I will open my mouth in parables,
I will utter things hidden since the creation of the world'" (Matthew 13:34–35).

Harelian commentary:
Huh?! That's a prophecy? Parables are such a Jewish way to teach things. You can find them all over! How are we to know this isn't even a reference to the Book of Proverbs?

15. Christ's parables would fall on deaf ears
Prophecy:
"He said, 'Go and tell this people:

"Be ever hearing, but never understanding;
be ever seeing, but never perceiving.’
Make the heart of this people calloused;
make their ears dull
and close their eyes.
Otherwise they might see with their eyes,
hear with their ears,
understand with their hearts,
and turn and be healed"'" (Isaiah 6:9–10).

Fulfillment:
"This is why I speak to them in parables:

'Though seeing, they do not see;
though hearing, they do not hear or understand.

In them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah:

'"You will be ever hearing but never understanding;
you will be ever seeing but never perceiving.
For this people’s heart has become calloused;
they hardly hear with their ears,
and they have closed their eyes.
Otherwise they might see with their eyes,
hear with their ears,
understand with their hearts
and turn, and I would heal them"'" (Matthew 13:13–15).

Harelian commentary:
Hey now, if your parables are terrible, you should try checking your material - you may just be bad at parables. Or a bad teacher in general.



Okay, I'm taking a break now. This is just too pathetic...
 

Samael_Khan

Goosebender
I imagine that this isn't the end of the rabbot hole? :D

I will ad my two cents as well.

Strap in your seat belts, here's my commentary on 55 Old Testament Prophecies about Jesus | Jesus Film Project

Note: I use a lot of sarcasm, but at the same time, I'm dead-serious.

Part 1: Prophecies of Jesus's birth

1. The nations will be blessed through Abraham's lineage
Prophecy:
"I will bless those who bless you,
and whoever curses you I will curse;
and all peoples on earth
will be blessed through you" (Genesis 12:3).

Fulfillment:
"And you are heirs of the prophets and of the covenant God made with your fathers. He said to Abraham, ‘Through your offspring all peoples on earth will be blessed.’ When God raised up his servant, he sent him first to you to bless you by turning each of you from your wicked ways” (Acts 3:25–26).​

Harelian commentary:
What "fulfillment"? What world-wide blessings have we seen since Jesus' death? Was there some sort of wave of purification emitting from Jesus' body when he died (Po Wushi-finger-hold style)? No. Death and sickness and poverty continue to this day.
In the NT context, the way the earth is blessed is through miracles and the death of Christ. So reading the context before this quote of Acts, Holy Spirit falls on the apostles and the rest and they can understand many different languages, thus they are able to preach about God affectively to those of other nations, which they did, and they can prophecy and heal people which they also do in chapter 3, which is the verse this quote is taken from. The worldly blessing is that Christ's death played the part of the Jewish Atonement on a worldwide scale, therefore all those who believe would have their sins blotted out, and allowed for people to be healed and have the chance of being saved and reach paradise. The verse isn't quoted as saying the fulfilment happened in full in that chapter or before then, but that the foundation of it has happened, which is why in verse 26,he says "To you first". The prophecy will be fulfilled in the future not at the present time that the verse was written. The curing of sicknesses and the resurrection was the dead was already happening by the power of Jesus disciples according to the narrative.

2. God's covenant with Isaac's ancestors
Prophecy:
"Then God said, 'Yes, but your wife Sarah will bear you a son, and you will call him Isaac. I will establish my covenant with him as an everlasting covenant for his descendants after him'" (Genesis 17:19).

Fulfillment:
"Nor because they are his descendants are they all Abraham's children. On the contrary, 'It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned'” (Romans 9:7).
Harelian commentary:
Okay. What. I haven't checked the Romans context, but I assume this is some of that spiritual-Israel mumbo-jumbo. Because the Nation of Israel is counted through Israel, son of Isaac, son of Abraham, while the Midianites are counted through Midian, son of Abraham and the Ishmaelites are counted through Ishmael, son of Abraham, and Edomites are counted through Esau, son of Isaac, son of Abraham, that means that whoever isn't a descendant of Isaac, or Abraham for that matter, is also still a member of Israel? How does that work out? Answer: 'CAUSE REASONS!!! (pardon the use of capitals).
This is speaking about fulfillment of prophecy but is referring to the fulfillment of Old testament prophecy to make a point. The point Paul is making is that just because someone is a descendent of Abraham, does not mean that he is blessed by God. So Abraham had two children, but it was through Isaac, that the blessed nation would come from. Then it goes on to recount how the promise went through Jacob. In a similar vain. Not all those who are of Israel are God's people, as shown in the old Testament, Especially Isaiah, in which only the obedient remnants of israel are preserved while the rest are punished. So the moral is that God chooses who he blesses and who he chooses as his children. In the same vain Ruth wasn't an Israelite but she became part of God's people, marrying Boaz.

I will go through the rest later as I have to be somewhere. But context matters very much in the NT as well. The guy speaking about fulfillments who you quoted seems to be proof texting and taking the verses out of the context they are being used in some cases.

Will elaborate further when I get back. I even replied to these in a rush.

But the information is awesome. I am eager to see the rest.
The context actually matters in these verses and

 

Harel13

Am Yisrael Chai
Staff member
Premium Member
But context matters very much in the NT as well.
Yeah, I'm sure it does. But these sorts of lists never include any context - not NT, not Tanach. Just quote-mining and twisting any mistranslations. It's pretty pathetic, in my opinion. Also, it's tiring hopping from computer window to window, so I didn't bother opening it all up. It'd be easier if I had a physical NT, but I don't.
 
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