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Police Responded to Protests Against Police Violence With Even More Wantonly Brutal Violence

HonestJoe

HonestJoe

Well-Known Member
Saint Frankenstein said:
Just so you know, it's been documented that it's mostly white saboteurs posing as protesters inciting riots throughout the country. Almost every protest has seen this happen. They've been confronted by black and brown people over it at almost every turn.
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There are plenty of both black people and white people engaging in violence, destruction and looting. There are plenty of both black people and white people not engaging in any of that, regardless of any incitement. Incitement isn't an excuse or justification, the rioters are still guilty.

You also need to decide whether you're defending the violence against property as a legitimate form of protest or you're condemning it but blaming it on white people. As long as you continue to push even greater racial division like that, you're very much part of the problem. I never mentioned race, I condemned violence unconditionally. You seem incapable of doing so, as long as the violent people are black. And I believe there is a word for that.
 
Revoltingest

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Saint Frankenstein said:
Just so you know, it's been documented that it's mostly white saboteurs posing as protesters inciting riots throughout the country. Almost every protest has seen this happen. They've been confronted by black and brown people over it at almost every turn.
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I don't doubt that their are saboteurs & false flag types involved.
This happens to every group, eg, Trump rallies, BLM, Antifa.
But I've seen many videos of looters, & there are a great number
of black folk looting & beating people. It cannot be all blamed on
white folk. Just as happened in 1968 Detroit, black rioters must
accept responsibility for destroying their own community.

Caution: Only some blacks, & some whites are the evil doers in this.
One cannot claim that either group is entirely guilty nor without sin.
 
Tambourine

Tambourine

Well-Known Member
Most of the destruction I've seen so far has been to human lives and private property by a police force that exists ostensibly to serve and protect these exact same people. Should they accept responsibility?
 
Revoltingest

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Tambourine said:
Most of the destruction I've seen so far has been to human lives and private property by a police force that exists ostensibly to serve and protect these exact same people. Should they accept responsibility?
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Are you saying mostly cops destroyed & looted all those stores?
 
Tambourine

Tambourine

Well-Known Member
Israel Khan said:
Howso?
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Some arguments:
1. Discussions are generally not a good tool to convince their participants to change their ideas. They may sway a neutral audience, but neutral audiences are increasingly rare. And by introducing this neutral audience to white supremacist ideas and white supremacist rhetorics, you always risks these people choosing that position over yours. So even the most well conducted discussion carries the risk of spreading Nazi ideas, simply by exposing neutral audiences to ideas they might have not considered on their own.

2. Political discourse is shaped by a phenomenon called the Overton Window, which essentially frames a limited pool of ideas an rhetorical tools as "reasonable" and acceptable to the mainstream. Discussing the vile and frankly self-contradictory and stupid messages of white supremacists on the same level as more justifiable mainstream positions effectively elevates the former to the level of the latter, and integrates white supremacist ideas in the pool of political ideas acceptable to mainstream audiences.

3. Most Nazis (and especially the smarter ones) are not interest in an honest, fair, and open discussion, because any fair and honest discussion is fundamentally to the detriment of their message. This is why white supremacist ideology is typically wrapped in several layers of obfuscatory rhetoric ("illegal immigration is dangerous", "political correctness has gone mad", "affirmative action is racist", "Islam is violent") to obscure its core message of genocidal racism and antisemitism. Any white supremacist accepting a discussion is not seeking an honest and open one, but will rather attempt to utilize any such platform for manipulative purposes. And because of #1, by discussing Nazis, you may well turn your own discussion platform into an unwitting recruitment tool for white supremacist ideas.

4. Most white supremacists do not arrive at their positions by reasoning or honest introspection, and therefore will not be reasoned out of it because reasoning fundamentally does not change the circumstances that made them white supremacists to begin with.

5. Most of the time, they just won't debate in good faith, and they will tend to do so in front of an audience sympathetic to their ideas. It's just not worth it.
 
Tambourine

Tambourine

Well-Known Member
Revoltingest said:
Are you saying mostly cops destroyed & looted all those stores?
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I've seen cops loot and destroy private property on video, and I've seen cops severely beat and hurt people. I've seen cops shoot tear gas grenades into people's homes, and I've seen them block firefighters from getting to their targets.

Do you think the police should accept responsibility for those acts?
 
Revoltingest

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Tambourine said:
I've seen cops loot and destroy private property on video, and I've seen cops severely beat and hurt people. I've seen cops shoot tear gas grenades into people's homes, and I've seen them block firefighters from getting to their targets.
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You've claimed they caused "most of the destruction".
Can you support the claim?
Do you think the police should be made responsible for those acts?
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Of course, but only when they're the ones committing the crimes.
 
Tambourine

Tambourine

Well-Known Member
Revoltingest said:
You've claimed they caused "most of the destruction".
Can you support the claim?

Of course, but only when they're the ones committing the crimes.
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Fortunately, it's the police who decides whether a crime has been committed, so no crimes take place when the police is teargassing protesters and innocent bystanders.
 
Revoltingest

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Tambourine said:
Fortunately, it's the police who decides whether a crime has been committed, so no crimes take place when the police is teargassing protesters and innocent bystanders.
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That's rather glib, & doesn't support the claim that cops are doing most of the property destruction.

Let's consider this article in the news today....
West Philadelphia ShopRite Looted For 15 Hours Straight, Owner Says
Locals say they want more police protection of their stores.
But you say that the cops are the ones doing most of the destruction, ie, looting & burning.
Would you say they're wrong?
 
Tambourine

Tambourine

Well-Known Member
Revoltingest said:
That's rather glib, & doesn't support the claim that cops are doing most of the property destruction.
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I did not say "property destruction", I said "destruction". I do not consider property more important than human lives, or even as important. The police has been damaging more people than people have been damaging property.

You seem to be invested in the idea that isolated incidences of private property damage have rendered the protests against police brutality illegitimate. Or am I wrong in my reading of your posts here?

Do you believe that the current rate of private property damage is justifying or legitimizing police violence against protesters and bystanders, or delegitimizing the protesters' message?
 
Revoltingest

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Tambourine said:
I did not say "property destruction", I said "destruction". I do not consider property more important than human lives, or even as important. The police has been damaging more people than people have been damaging property.
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What would "destruction" apply to?
When people are injured or killed, it's usually called "assaults", "injuries", "killings", etc.
You seem to be invested in the idea that isolated incidences of private property damage has rendered all protests against police brutality illegitimate.
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That's an erroneous inference.
Or am I wrong in my reading of your posts here?
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Wrongo pongo.
We seem to be misreading each other.
 
Tambourine

Tambourine

Well-Known Member
Revoltingest said:
What would "destruction" apply to?
When people are injured or killed, it's usually called "assaults", "injuries", "killings", etc.
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They can destroy a human life by other means than physical death, but I know we've in the past run into that misunderstanding due to your denial that psychological damage exists and can hurt people, so I don't think anything is being gained here by debating you further on this.
 
gnomon

gnomon

Well-Known Member
Saint Frankenstein said:
I see people often asking why the protests have often devolved into angry, chaotic displays but it doesn't seem they want to consider the actions of the police in it. The mainstream media is doing all they can to spin a "law and order" narrative that glorifies the police as showing "great restraint" and portrays them as the victim due to being "outnumbered", despite being heavily armored with gas masks and heavily armed, while the vast majority of protesters wear regular street clothes with no protection from the gas, mace and projectiles shot at us. (Naomi Klein has made a salient point that using tear gas and mace on thousands of people during a pandemic spread through mucus membrane fluids qualifies as biological warfare.)

But the truth is out there, mostly on social media as everyday people around the nation share their reports, footage and pictures. I myself can attest that the mainstream narrative is not the reality as I saw a peaceful protest on Saturday devolve into a running battle through the street as the cops chased us down and terrorized us with "non-lethal" means which were still quite torturous, cause serious injuries and are panic-inducing (tear gas, mace, shooting projectiles at us, the use of a sound cannon and just straight up assault on non-violent protesters). I saw teens gassed and maced point blank in the face. A black Congresswoman was maced for trying to intervene in a confrontation. Idealistic young people whose only crime was practicing the great American tradition of non-violent protest for justice and civil disobedience (by being in the street).

Now let's read some takes from around the country:

"In New York City, police pepper-sprayed a black man with his hands in the air in the face at point-blank range. In San Antonio, police shot rubber bullets directly at a bystander filming with his phone. In Las Vegas, the police rushed a crowd of peaceful protestors yelling “Grab anybody!” In Dallas, police shot a teenage woman who was coming home from the grocery store in the face with a rubber bullet. In Minneapolis, the National Guard fired paint canisters at residents on their front porches after yelling “Light them up!” In Los Angeles, Boston, New York City, and Lakeland, Ohio, police plowed into protestors with their cars.

In Chicago, a police officer brandished his baton at a protestor and called him a “*****” and a “****ing ******.” In Philadelphia, police tackled and knelt on a black man while calling him a “*****.” In Dallas, the police shot a black man in the eye with a wooden round, injuring him seriously and leaving him bleeding profusely on the pavement. Seconds later the officers were heard laughing and singing “America, **** yeah.” In New York City, a police officer flashed a racist right-wing hand symbol. In Cincinnati, police officers lowered an American flag and replaced it with a “thin blue line” flag.

In Atlanta, two black non-protestors were driving home when police pepper sprayed and tased them, dragged them from their cars, and arrested them. In Denver, police shot rubber bullets and tear gas canisters at passing cars; when one man stepped out of his car and told them that his pregnant girlfriend was inside, they opened fire on the car. In Austin, the police shot a pregnant black woman in the abdomen with a bean bag round. She doubled over on the ground and screamed, “My baby! My baby!”

In Minneapolis, Las Vegas, Los Angeles, and other cities across America, the police aimed their fire at journalists who were clearly marked as and had verbally identified themselves as press. In Brooklyn, Minneapolis, and Philadelphia, the police attacked medics who announced themselves as medics, some of whom were in the process of tending to protesters’ wounds. In Columbus, police pepper sprayed Joyce Beatty, a black member of Congress, who was attempting to deescalate a confrontation. Police across the country demonstrated blatant racial bias in choosing who to arrest.

In New York City, Orlando, and Portland, Oregon police posed for sentimental photographs, kneeling before protestors in a press-friendly gesture of benevolence — before unleashing violence on protestors hours later. In Omaha, the police trampled over sitting protestors. In Erie, a police officer violently kicked a sitting protestor. In Salt Lake City, the police shoved an elderly man who walked with a cane and couldn’t hear commands to the ground. In New York City, a police officer walking by a woman shoved her so hard that when she fell it caused her to have a seizure.

In Washington, DC, the police fired tear gas canisters directly at the heads and faces of protestors on multiple occasions. Denver police fired rubber bullets directly into protestors’ faces, causing gruesome injuries. In La Mesa, California, a middle-aged black woman was shot in the face with a rubber bullet; the projectile lodged deep between her eyes, sending her to the ICU.

In Fort Wayne, Indiana, the police shot a white protestor in the eye with a tear gas canister. He is now blind in that eye. In Minneapolis, a photojournalist was shot in the eye with a rubber bullet. She is now blind in that eye.

In Louisville on Sunday, law enforcement shot and killed David “Yaya” McAtee, known around his neighborhood as “the BBQ man” because he made and sold barbecue there from a stand.

“Where he was killed is the neighborhood I grew up in. He was a fixture of the community,” says Robert LeVertis Bell, a candidate for Louisville Metro Council and a member of the Democratic Socialists of America. The police or National Guard, it’s still unclear which, shot into the crowd after they received incoming fire, authorities say. But “if anybody shot at the police, it wasn’t him,” explains Bell. “He was just coming home from work.”

Louisville is the same city where Breonna Taylor was killed in March. Louisville police shot Taylor, a black woman, eight times in her own home while looking for drugs. People in Louisville have been protesting Taylor’s death since before the killing of George Floyd in Minneapolis, which sparked uprisings across the country. McAtee’s death is yet another catalyst, adding fuel to the fire.

“There have been tons of protests across the city. I’ve been at several that were peaceful, and police out of nowhere just started attacking people,” says Bell. “Everything they’ve done at every turn seems to have escalated the conflict and the violence.”

Make no mistake, the police are the ones rioting. And they’re doing so with impunity."

This Weekend, Police Responded to Protests Against Police Violence With Even More Wantonly Brutal Violence

Make your choice as to which side of history you personally want to be on.
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Tone it down.
 
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