The Good, the Bad and God

MJFlores · Jun 2, 2020

blü 2 said:
Why would you conclude that a God with form like that disapproved of human sacrifice as such even in the tiniest degree?

I think you are reacting on Jer 19:5 & Eze 20:31 because it is not strong enough?
Not forceful enough, is that it?
You want hot sauce on your hot chilly and heavily sprinkled with hot ground pepper?

Maybe the NIV isn't hot enough so lets check the other translations:

Jeremiah 19:5 Easy-to-Read Version (ERV)
The kings of Judah built high places for the god Baal. They use those places to burn their sons in the fire. They burned their sons as burnt offerings to the god Baal. I did not tell them to do that. I did not ask them to offer their sons as sacrifices. I never even thought of such a thing.

Jeremiah 19:5 GOD’S WORD Translation (GW)
They have built worship sites to burn their children as sacrifices to Baal. I didn’t ask them or command them to do this. It never entered my mind.

Jeremiah 19:5 Good News Translation (GNT)
and they have built altars for Baal in order to burn their children in the fire as sacrifices. I never commanded them to do this; it never even entered my mind.

Ezekiel 20:31 Contemporary English Version (CEV)
by worshiping idols and by sacrificing their own children as offerings. They commit these sins and still think they can ask me for a message. As surely as I am the living Lord God, I will give them no answer.

Ezekiel 20:31 The Message (MSG)
“Therefore, say to Israel, ‘The Message of God, the Master: You’re making your lives filthy by copying the ways of your parents. In repeating their vile practices, you’ve become whores yourselves. In burning your children as sacrifices, you’ve become as filthy as your no-god idols—as recently as today!

“‘Am I going to put up with questions from people like you, Israel? As sure as I am the living God, I, God, the Master, refuse to be called into question by you!

So did God detest children sacrifices?

blü 2 said:
And remember, this is the God who commanded the sacrifice of Isaac, this is the God who at the least actively connived in the sacrifice of Jephthah's daughter, this is the God who refused to lift the famine till seven innocent sons of Saul were put to death by impalement "before the Lord" and this is the God who sacrificed [his] own son to [him]self.

I have seen 2 Samuel 21 in passing regarding the 7 sons
Could you refer me to another verse - 2 Samuel 21 is sketchy on the matter
So I could not comment yet.

The young woman and virgin [interchangeably] daughter of Jephthah consented with his father.
His father made the vow and carried the vow.
What would have God said?

I did not tell them to do that. I did not ask them to offer their sons as sacrifices. I never even thought of such a thing. I didn’t ask them or command them to do this. It never entered my mind. In burning your children as sacrifices, you’ve become as filthy as your no-god idols—as recently as today!

God did not connive with Jephthah.
Jephthah acted on his own volition, free will and there was no duress whatsoever in his part.
Did he made a mistake? Yes.
Did he fulfill the vow? Obviously.

God sacrificed his son for himself? Some of you call it a suicide, which is which?

Why was Jesus Christ sent?
What is his mission?
Why did he have to die?
Was he sacrificed or commit suicide?

Tober Canton · Jun 2, 2020

Hellbound Serpiente said:
Perhaps Link have a point here. Yes, God could reveal the Quran more clearly, but this ambiguous verses might actually have been a test for the believers. This is my personal theory, don't take it as a fact. But I personally feel like God revealed these ambiguous verses on purpose to test Muslims, and just like you said, almost all Muslims misunderstood [and failed the test]. Check out this verse to see what I mean:

"Shakir: He it is Who has revealed the Book to you; some of its verses are decisive, they are the basis of the Book, and others are allegorical; then as for those in whose hearts there is perversity they follow the part of it which is allegorical, seeking to mislead and seeking to give it (their own) interpretation. but none knows its interpretation except Allah, and those who are firmly rooted in knowledge say: We believe in it, it is all from our Lord; and none do mind except those having understanding." --- Surah Ali 'Imran [3:7]

I personally feel like Muslims made the very mistake God is talking about in the verses above --- They took the allegorical verses and twisted it to suit the interpretation most suitable to their personal agenda.

I might be wrong, but it doesn't matter. Slavery is unacceptable. Islam and other Abrahamic religions needs reformation to get rid of evils practices like killing of apostates, homosexuals, stoning, oppression against women, jizya, denouncing Sharia as a whole along numerous other unjust practices attributed to Islam to become compatible with our modern era. Either that, or Islam AND Christianity and Judaism needs abolishment.

Also btw: Misconception: Islam and The Quran promotes slavery
Quran does not legitimize slavery - Egypt Independent

Prophet Muhammad (A.S.) came out of a time were slavery was widespread in a place were. It wasn't as bad as the Protestant slavery of African Americans in the colonial period though, but it was still very bad.
Islam, in it's original context, takes a highly opposed position towards slavery and freeing slaves is considered almost a pillar of the religion.

The absolute abolishing of slavery was not yet feasible in 7th century Arabia, the counterattack was to promote the gradual freeing of slaves as a radical progression of action. It took time for the old bourgeoisie slave system of 7th century Arabia to crumble. You have to realize also how hostile the political 'system' Muhammad was opposing at the time.

You may also find this a useful read: The Holy Imams’ Benevolence to Slaves

Kenny · Jun 2, 2020

blü 2 said:
And each time I made an extremely relevant reply which goes like this:

It isn't clear that Jephthah made a free choice. Instead he made the deal while "the Spirit of the Lord was upon him".

Again, I understand that your view of God influences your viewpoint.

There is a fallacy when someone says "It is either A or B" as if a "C" is non-existent. And then again, when you pick one verse at the expense of any other verse.

My question is, "I wonder what is going on deep in your conscience that drives you to think that way. Something that happened to you? Religious teaching that was based on a false premise? Or something like unto that?"

Saul made a similar vow in 1 Sam 14 but never did it. There is no record of God reproving Saul for not fulfilling a wrong and irrational vow.

You can make a irrational choice even when the Spirit of the Lord is upon you which is proven by the text you just quoted. The Spirit of the Lord was upon Jonah when he decided to go in the opposite direction.

Of course, if you are so ingrained on your position because of your viewpoint, there is nothing we can do. The very presence of God was upon Jesus but he could do no mighty miracle because of the unbelief musings in the hearers.

Shalom.

blü 2 · Jun 2, 2020

KenS said:
Again, I understand that your view of God influences your viewpoint.

My viewpoint regarding God is no secret. There's no coherent definition of a real God, a being with objective existence, such that if we found a real candidate, we could determine whether it was God or not. There isn't even a coherent definition of 'godness', the quality that a real god would have and eg a real superscientist who could create universes, raise the dead, travel in time and so on, would lack. As well, God never says or does, and the world behaves exactly as if God only existed as a concept or thing imagined in individual brains. Supernatural beliefs are found in virtually all cultures, but they take a great variety of forms; this suggests that they're either an evolved instinct, perhaps a factor in tribal solidarity along with language, culture and stories and heroes in common; or perhaps they're an artifact of the human instinct to respond to sudden mysteries by imaging causes. But that's by the by really.

KenS said:
There is a fallacy when someone says "It is either A or B" as if a "C" is non-existent.

We're limited to what the text says. It says that God has been complicit in at least four episodes about human sacrifice ─ Isaac, Jephthah, the sons of Saul, and Jesus, with Jonah also a candidate.

KenS said:
And then again, when you pick one verse at the expense of any other verse.

My interest is in what the text actually says. I have no wish for it to say any particular thing. By contrast, it seems to me that a number of posters are here as apologists.

KenS said:
My question is, "I wonder what is going on deep in your conscience that drives you to think that way.

A desire to find out what's true in reality and to stand up for that truth; and to enjoy debate.

KenS said:
Something that happened to you?

What happened to you that turned you into a believer, and a Christian believer at that? Did you fall on your head as a child? Were you jilted by a Buddhist? Do you have a secret fetish about eating human flesh and drinking blood?

By which I mean, skip the condescension ─ it's not helpful. The topic in hand is what the bible actually says about God ─ as distinct from what anyone might prefer it to say instead.

Kenny · Jun 2, 2020

blü 2 said:
My viewpoint regarding God is no secret. There's no coherent definition of a real God, a being with objective existence, such that if we found a real candidate, we could determine whether it was God or not. There isn't even a coherent definition of 'godness', the quality that a real god would have and eg a real superscientist who could create universes, raise the dead, travel in time and so on, would lack. As well, God never says or does, and the world behaves exactly as if God only existed as a concept or thing imagined in individual brains. Supernatural beliefs are found in virtually all cultures, but they take a great variety of forms; this suggests that they're either an evolved instinct, perhaps a factor in tribal solidarity along with language, culture and stories and heroes in common; or perhaps they're an artifact of the human instinct to respond to sudden mysteries by imaging causes. But that's by the by really.

God is love... pretty coherent.

But I don't find what you just said as very coherent other than your reinforcing your viewpoint regarding God.

blü 2 said:
We're limited to what the text says. It says that God has been complicit in at least four episodes about human sacrifice ─ Isaac, Jephthah, the sons of Saul, and Jesus, with Jonah also a candidate.

But you added to what the text said - you added your interpretation at the expense of every other scripture.

blü 2 said:
My interest is in what the text actually says. I have no wish for it to say any particular thing. By contrast, it seems to me that a number of posters are here as apologists.

You are your own apologist too as you determined that God prompted something He didn't do.

blü 2 said:
A desire to find out what's true in reality and to stand up for that truth; and to enjoy debate.

And yet, when we give scripture after scripture debunking your position, you ignore it and yet declare that you "stand up for that truth".

blü 2 said:
What happened to you that turned you into a believer, and a Christian believer at that? Did you fall on your head as a child? Were you jilted by a Buddhist? Do you have a secret fetish about eating human flesh and drinking blood?

By which I mean, skip the condescension ─ it's not helpful. The topic in hand is what the bible actually says about God ─ as distinct from what anyone might prefer it to say instead.

Again... your bias is showing, which still reinforces my question... what happen? After all you are adding your veiewpoint beyond to what is said.

blü 2 · Jun 2, 2020

MJFlores said:
Jeremiah 19:5 Easy-to-Read Version (ERV)
The kings of Judah built high places for the god Baal. They use those places to burn their sons in the fire. They burned their sons as burnt offerings to the god Baal. I did not tell them to do that. I did not ask them to offer their sons as sacrifices. I never even thought of such a thing.

Still nothing against human sacrifice, still only about doing what they did without "my" authority.

MJFlores said:
So did God detest children sacrifices?

Of course not. [He] arranged the death of [his] own son, for instance. [His] gripe was, as [he] said numerous time (Exodus 20:5. 34:14. Deuteronomy 4:24, 5:9, 6:15, Joshua 24:19. Nahum 1:2) jealousy of other gods. It made [him] order invasions to seize other peoples' lands, massacre their populations. rape their women, that kind of thing. It's all there in the bible.

MJFlores said:
I have seen 2 Samuel 21 in passing regarding the 7 sons. Could you refer me to another verse - 2 Samuel 21 is sketchy on the matter.

I don't find it sketchy ─ it seems remarkably specific. 1. There was a famine and it went on for three years. God told David, "There is bloodguilt on Saul and his house because he put the Gibeonites to death." 3. David asked the Gibeonites what they wanted in satisfaction. 7. They replied, "Give us seven sons of Saul so that we may impale them before the Lord. Then we'll be quits." 7-8 So David rounded up seven sons and handed them over. 9. And the Gibeonite killed them by impalement before the Lord. 10 Some proper rituals were observed. 14. Then God ended the famine.

MJFlores said:
God did not connive with Jephthah.

Nonsense. God was there when it was set up, and when it was knocked down. [He] was in it up to [his] chin. It couldn't have happened unless [he] wanted it to happen. AND [he] was so pleased that [he] put Jephthah in charge of Israel. Wow!

MJFlores said:
God sacrificed his son for himself?

The gospels seem to agree on that, yes.

MJFlores said:
Why did he have to die?

I've never worked that out. I may have asked you this before, but anyway, if you could explain to me what Jesus' death accomplished that God couldn't have done better and quicker with one snap of those omnipotent fingers, I'll be much better informed.

MJFlores said:
Was he sacrificed or commit suicide?

He was on a suicide mission for God. The trouble is, he went out of his way to make dang sure he got himself killed, because those were his instructions from HQ.

Why? Look what the Buddha accomplished without the gore.

[Once, waiting for a friend, I wandered through an old church nearby. The walls seasonally bore pictures of the stations of the cross. I really dislike sado-masochism, and the whole parading of the whips, thorns, nails, spears, blood, agony thing just seemed sick to me. Still does. But that's just a small footnote. I was already not a believer.]

MJFlores · Jun 2, 2020

blü 2 said:
this is the God who refused to lift the famine till seven innocent sons of Saul were put to death by impalement "before the Lord"

Let us examine 2 Samuel 21:1-9

2 Samuel 21:1-9 New International Version (NIV)
During the reign of David, there was a famine for three successive years; so David sought the face of the Lord. The Lord said, “It is on account of Saul and his blood-stained house; it is because he put the Gibeonites to death.”

Saul, his sons and his soldiers killing the Gibeaonites [even when there is an existing treaty with Israel]
Joshua 9:15

The king summoned the Gibeonites and spoke to them. (Now the Gibeonites were not a part of Israel but were survivors of the Amorites; the Israelites had sworn to spare them, but Saul in his zeal for Israel and Judah had tried to annihilate them.) David asked the Gibeonites, “What shall I do for you? How shall I make atonement so that you will bless the Lord’s inheritance?”

The Gibeonites answered him, “We have no right to demand silver or gold from Saul or his family, nor do we have the right to put anyone in Israel to death.”

“What do you want me to do for you?” David asked.

They answered the king, “As for the man who destroyed us and plotted against us so that we have been decimated and have no place anywhere in Israel, let seven of his male descendants be given to us to be killed and their bodies exposed before the Lord at Gibeah of Saul—the Lord’s chosen one.”

So the king said, “I will give them to you.”

The king spared Mephibosheth son of Jonathan, the son of Saul, because of the oath before the Lord between David and Jonathan son of Saul. But the king took Armoni and Mephibosheth, the two sons of Aiah’s daughter Rizpah, whom she had borne to Saul, together with the five sons of Saul’s daughter Merab, whom she had borne to Adriel son of Barzillai the Meholathite. He handed them over to the Gibeonites, who killed them and exposed their bodies on a hill before the Lord. All seven of them fell together; they were put to death during the first days of the harvest, just as the barley harvest was beginning.

This slogan is popular nowadays isn't it?
The Gibeonites did not ask for compensation for the massacre of their compatriots
The Gibeonites did not ask for one Israelite dead for one Gibeonite dead
The Gibeonites asked for Saul's blood-stained house since Saul was dead

“As for the man who destroyed us and plotted against us so that we have been decimated and have no place anywhere in Israel, let seven of his male descendants be given to us to be killed and their bodies exposed before the Lord at Gibeah of Saul—the Lord’s chosen one.”

The famine for three successive years - SOLVED
Gibeonites got the Justice - SOLVED
Israelites got their relative peace - SOLVED

blü 2 · Jun 2, 2020

KenS said:
God is love... pretty coherent.

Nope. Love is a set of evolved biochemical responses to do, in the main, with one-to-one bonding, which are accompanied much of the time with positive and enjoyable feelings.

Are you saying evolution is God? I wouldn't go that far myself.

KenS said:
But I don't find what you just said as very coherent

If God is real, not imaginary, has objective existence, then God has the qualities of a real entity ─ a describable material form.

If [he'ls merely said to be immaterial, supernatural, divine, spiritual, (&c) no test can distinguish those from 'imaginary'.

KenS said:
But you added to what the text said - you added your interpretation at the expense of every other scripture.

No I didn't. You speak as though scripture is one thing, a unified integrated thesis. On the contrary, it's a set of thoroughly human documents written at different times and places by different people all with different purposes in mind. It's got five different versions of Jesus, to take one tiny example. It's got six accounts of the resurrection, none of which is contemporary or by an eyewitness or independent, and each of the accounts contradicts the other five in major ways. On and on.

KenS said:
You are your own apologist too as you determined that God prompted something He didn't do.

Then [his] complaint is with whoever wrote Judges, not with me. I'm just reading what it actually says.

KenS said:
And yet, when we give scripture after scripture debunking your position, you ignore it and yet declare that you "stand up for that truth".

In my view, truth is a quality of statements, and a statement is true to the extent that it corresponds with / accurately reflects, objective reality ─that's to say, the world external to the self, nature, the realm of the physical sciences.

What definition do you use?

blü 2 · Jun 2, 2020

MJFlores said:
Let us examine 2 Samuel 21:1-9

And you forgot to tell me what Jesus' death accomplished that God couldn't have done better and quicker with one snap of those omnipotent fingers.

MJFlores · Jun 2, 2020

blü 2 said:
jealousy of other gods. It made [him] order invasions to seize other peoples' lands, massacre their populations. rape their women, that kind of thing. It's all there in the bible.

Invasion to seize other people's lands?

Genesis 35:9-12 New International Version (NIV)
After Jacob returned from Paddan Aram, God appeared to him again and blessed him. God said to him, “Your name is Jacob, but you will no longer be called Jacob; your name will be Israel.” So he named him Israel.

And God said to him, “I am God Almighty; be fruitful and increase in number. A nation and a community of nations will come from you, and kings will be among your descendants. The land I gave to Abraham and Isaac I also give to you, and I will give this land to your descendants after you.”

That reminds me of a 1960 song

I believe the Israelites were just reclaiming what is theirs.

Now they just came out of Egypt, most of them are slaves and their skill set are limited
They could make bricks out of mud and straw
They are used to pushing and pulling heavy works
But they succeeded because God was with them

War is a cruel and the battlefield is a bloody mess.
There will be cruelty, gore, death, killing, massacre.
Testosterone on everybody are in its highest level so there will be rapes
and that kind of thing - friendly fire, mutilation, laceration, impalement - you betcha!

You did not picture their battles are bloodless, did you?
A Israelite Got Talent competition?
A break dance battle? Or a rap battle?
Or a fashion show or a drama contest?
Or a beauty contest with men cross dressing as women?
Or a cooking or baking contest?

blü 2 said:
I've never worked that out. I may have asked you this before, but anyway, if you could explain to me what Jesus' death accomplished that God couldn't have done better and quicker with one snap of those omnipotent fingers, I'll be much better informed.

God created everything because of Jesus Christ Hebrews 1:2

The first human beings sinned and God cursed the devil [serpent] Genesis 3:15

Man was banished in Paradise because he sinned.
Man's connection with God was lost because of sin Isaiah 59:2

Genesis 6:5 New International Version (NIV)
The Lord saw how great the wickedness of the human race had become on the earth, and that every inclination of the thoughts of the human heart was only evil all the time.

Flood came and God protected 8 people in the ark.
He made a covenant with Noah.
That is why we have rainbows after the rain.

God also entered into covenants with Abraham, Isaac, Jacob [Israel]

Jacob[Israel] and his sons migrated to Egypt via Joseph the dreamer
And they grew into a nation as time passed by.
They were enslaved and God entered a covenant with Israel

Israel is the only chosen nation, favored by God
The rest of the world do not have the true God

2 Kings 5:15 New International Version (NIV)
Then Naaman and all his attendants went back to the man of God. He stood before him and said, “Now I know that there is no God in all the world except in Israel. So please accept a gift from your servant.”

So if you happen to be an American, a Brit, a Chinese or a Filipino [like me] during those times, you are a goner and godless loser. But of course during those times there were Mesopotamians, Egyptians, Hittites and the like.

But Israel disobeyed God and they broke His covenant with them.

Jeremiah 31:31-33 New International Version (NIV)
“The days are coming,” declares the Lord,
“when I will make a new covenant
with the people of Israel
and with the people of Judah.
It will not be like the covenant
I made with their ancestors
when I took them by the hand
to lead them out of Egypt,
because they broke my covenant,
though I was a husband to them,”
declares the Lord.
“This is the covenant I will make with the people of Israel
after that time,” declares the Lord.
“I will put my law in their minds
and write it on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people.

Zephaniah 1:2-3 New International Version (NIV)
“I will sweep away everything
from the face of the earth,”
declares the Lord.
“I will sweep away both man and beast;
I will sweep away the birds in the sky
and the fish in the sea—
and the idols that cause the wicked to stumble.”

“When I destroy all mankind
on the face of the earth,”
declares the Lord,

Luke 22:20 New International Version (NIV)
In the same way, after the supper he took the cup, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which is poured out for you.

New covenant was introduced by the Lord Jesus Christ and made the old covenant obsolete. Hebrews 8:6-13

Matthew 16:18 New International Version (NIV)
And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it.

John 10:9-18 New International Version (NIV)
I am the gate; whoever enters through me will be saved. They will come in and go out, and find pasture. The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I have come that they may have life, and have it to the full.

“I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep. The hired hand is not the shepherd and does not own the sheep. So when he sees the wolf coming, he abandons the sheep and runs away. Then the wolf attacks the flock and scatters it. The man runs away because he is a hired hand and cares nothing for the sheep.

“I am the good shepherd; I know my sheep and my sheep know me— just as the Father knows me and I know the Father—and I lay down my life for the sheep. I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd. The reason my Father loves me is that I lay down my life—only to take it up again. No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again. This command I received from my Father.”

Ephesians 5:25 New International Version (NIV)
Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her

So why did Christ offered himself as a ransom for many?

Because he loved his church and he will save his church at the end of the world.

Ephesians 5:23 New International Version (NIV)
For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior.

Kenny · Jun 2, 2020

blü 2 said:
Nope. Love is a set of evolved biochemical responses to do, in the main, with one-to-one bonding, which are accompanied much of the time with positive and enjoyable feelings.

Are you saying evolution is God? I wouldn't go that far myself.

That would be true if your foundation is true. I hold that love is spiritual that has a natural effect on the body.

blü 2 said:
If God is real, not imaginary, has objective existence, then God has the qualities of a real entity ─ a describable material form.

If [he'ls merely said to be immaterial, supernatural, divine, spiritual, (&c) no test can distinguish those from 'imaginary'.

Again.... "describable material form" because that is what you believe? Or because that is what is true. Materiality is composed of wave lengths that can be measured but not seen. Science has not learned everything. Your position is a hypothesis of your personal viewpoint derived by what you have determined God is. An erroneous view IMO.

blü 2 said:
No I didn't. You speak as though scripture is one thing, a unified integrated thesis. On the contrary, it's a set of thoroughly human documents written at different times and places by different people all with different purposes in mind. It's got five different versions of Jesus, to take one tiny example. It's got six accounts of the resurrection, none of which is contemporary or by an eyewitness or independent, and each of the accounts contradicts the other five in major ways. On and on.

This is what you believe... but I don't.

29 Then the Spirit of the Lord came upon Jephthah, and he passed over Gilead, and Manasseh, and passed over Mizpeh of Gilead, and from Mizpeh of Gilead he passed over unto the children of Ammon.30 And Jephthah vowed a vow unto the Lord, and said, If thou shalt without fail deliver the children of Ammon into mine hands,31 Then it shall be, that whatsoever cometh forth of the doors of my house to meet me, when I return in peace from the children of Ammon, shall surely be the Lord's, and I will offer it up for a burnt offering.

Where did God tell Jephthah to make that vow? Nowhere. Your apologetics is that just because the Spirit of the Lord is upon a person, everything he does or says must be from God whereas scriptures contradict that position. (examples given)

And you won't find one Jewish Rabbi that would support your apologetic position.

And as you have done with this... so you have done with all others. Why? As I view it, you are projecting your belief system into scriptures to support your viewpoint at the expense of all other scriptures that prove you wrong.... if, in a hypothesis, you find evidence where it is proven wrong, you change your hypothesis.

If you still hold on to it after proven wrong, you line up in the same fashion as flat-earthers line up.

1213 · Jun 2, 2020

blü 2 said:
...
No, it was pre-ordained. As I cited in the OP,

Deuteronomy 7:1-2 “When the Lord your God brings you into the land you are entering to possess and drives out before you many nations...then you must destroy them totally. Make no treaty with them and show them no mercy." (and again at 20:16)...

God knew there would not be any repenting.

1213 · Jun 2, 2020

blü 2 said:
…

So why, in your view, did Moses, acting under God's orders, have everyone killed except the young females "who had not known a man" and what did Moses mean when he said to keep those specific females "for yourselves"? ...

They were for them to have wives. But that is not same as to rape, or do you rape your wife, is it ok to rape wife?

1213 · Jun 2, 2020

halbhh said:
...But often people will ask: why not all at once?...

I think the reason is, originally slave was like worker that is committed to work certain time (7 years), gets wage and living. So, it would have been good for a person to have work and get food and stuff. But then the good idea was corrupted and people begun to oppress others, which then lead to situation where it should be ended totally.

Unfortunately, I don’t think modern time is any better, because many people must pay taxes, which makes them basically tax slaves. It is interesting that people complain about Biblical slaves, but then think it is good that some people are forced to pay taxes. For example in Finland, if all taxes are combined, it is easily about 50 % of persons income and so, person must work for the government half of his year. I think that is wrong and probably even worse than what many ancient slaves had, because slave could have freedom after 7 years, if people obeyed the rules.

blü 2 · Jun 2, 2020

MJFlores said:
Invasion to seize other people's lands?

Yes. In the OP I quoted a few examples ─

Deuteronomy 7:1-2 Massacres and religious intolerance – “When the Lord your God brings you into the land you are entering to possess and drives out before you many nations...then you must destroy them totally. Make no treaty with them and show them no mercy." (and again at 20:16)

Numbers 31:9-17 – God orders massacre.

Numbers 31:9-17 – God orders mass rape.

Joshua 1 – God orders the invasion of Canaan so his people can seize the territory.

Joshua 6:17, 6:21 – God orders, and Joshua performs, the massacre of the population of Jericho.

MJFlores said:
Genesis 35:9-12 New International Version (NIV)
After Jacob returned from Paddan Aram, God appeared to him again and blessed him. God said to him, “Your name is Jacob, but you will no longer be called Jacob; your name will be Israel.” So he named him Israel.

And God said to him, “I am God Almighty; be fruitful and increase in number. A nation and a community of nations will come from you, and kings will be among your descendants. The land I gave to Abraham and Isaac I also give to you, and I will give this land to your descendants after you.”

And God said, Well, strictly speaking, it isn't really mine to give, but if you kill all the people who presently own it, who'll be left to complain?

MJFlores said:
I believe the Israelites were just reclaiming what is theirs.

Yeah, right. As Hitler said, the Germans, as the Master Race, were entitled to their Lebensraum.

MJFlores said:
But they succeeded because God was with them

Where was God when the Babylonians, Alexander, the Romans, overran Israel and Judea, I wonder? Where was God during the Holocaust? Not a very reliable friend, that Gpd, you'd have to say.

But priests have to earn a living too, so they have this rule where God gets credit for the wins, and it must be the people's fault when they lose. You're not allowed to audit God, I dare say for much the same reasons Donald's hiding his tax returns.

MJFlores said:
God created everything because of Jesus Christ Hebrews 1:2

You'll have noticed the NT has five versions of Jesus. The Jesuses of Paul and of the author of John are gnostic demiurges who pre-existed in heaven with God and created the material universe (1 Corinthian 8:6, John 1:2). The other three Jesuses didn't pre-exist in heaven with God and didn't create the material universe ─ implicitly this was done in the Genesis manner. Of those three, Mark's was just an ordinary Jew until JtB washed his sins away and God adopted him as his son in the manner God adopted David in Psalm 2:7. He's the only one who doesn't claim to be descended from David. The Jesuses of Matthew and of Luke, as you know, were born of a mistranslated virgin by divine insemination and inferentially have God's Y-chromosome. (Their descent from David is from those obviously fake and ludicrously incompatible and irrelevant genealogies.)

MJFlores said:
The first human beings sinned and God cursed the devil [serpent] Genesis 3:15

That isn't what the Garden story actually says, and there's no identity between the snake, who spoke only the truth, and the Devil, but don't let that stop you. (And it's obviously absurd to think that giving humans access to knowledge of good and evil is a bad thing.)

MJFlores said:
Man was banished in Paradise because he sinned.

You don't actually read the bible, do you. God clearly states his reason for kicking Adam and Eve out: Genesis 3:22 "Behold, the man has become like one of us, knowing good from evil; and now, lest he put forth his hand and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever" ─ 23 therefore the Lord God sent him forth from the garden of Eden.

No mention of sin, original sin, the fall of man, or the need for a redeemer anywhere. In fact Ezekiel devotes chapter 18 to explaining that sin is NOT inheritable eg 20 The soul that sins shall die. The son shall not suffer for the iniquity of the father, nor the father suffer for the iniquity of the son; the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.

MJFlores said:
Man's connection with God was lost because of sin Isaiah 59:2

And yet you have God connecting with Man all through the Tanakh.

MJFlores said:
Genesis 6:5 New International Version (NIV)
The Lord saw how great the wickedness of the human race had become on the earth, and that every inclination of the thoughts of the human heart was only evil all the time.

But the Flood is a myth copied from the Babylonian tale of Uta-Napishti, who copied it from the Sumerian tale of Ziasudra. (I highly commend Andrew George's "The Epic of Gilgamesh" to you.)

But back to the topic ─

You speak of the invasions of Moses and Joshua, and the massacres of populations, and the mass rapes, and the human sacrifices, with approval because God did them?

Do you REALLY approve of land-grabbing invasion and massacres and mass rapes and human sacrifices and religious intolerance and slavery and women as property and so on? Are those the morals you live by?

You, personally?

Really?

halbhh · Jun 2, 2020

blü 2 said:
Why would you conclude that a God with form like that disapproved of human sacrifice as such even in the tiniest degree?

Why the Canaanites were to removed, and the land given to Israel --

29“When the LORD your God cuts off before you the nations whom you go in to dispossess, and you dispossess them and dwell in their land, 30 take care that you be not ensnared to follow them, after they have been destroyed before you, and that you do not inquire about their gods, saying, ‘How did these nations serve their gods?—that I also may do the same.’ 31 You shall not worship the LORD your God in that way, for every abominable thing that the LORD hates they have done for their gods, for they even burn their sons and their daughters in the fire to their gods."

"..even..."

Child sacrifice is the worst of all their evils, He says here.

Israel also gets warned soon that the same will happen to them if they break this law against child sacrifice.

Later Israel also does break this crucial law, does this great evil of child sacrifices.

And in response, God sends foreign armies to crush Israel, and then enslave most of the survivors in foreign lands.

This is all basic Old Testament history stuff for anyone that reads through all the books.

So, now, seeing your characterization was entirely wrong, do you change it?

I think it's an interesting question whether you change a false characterization, or not....

Later, before judgement, we learn in 1rst Peter chapter 3 around verses 18 or 20, that Christ Himself brings proclamation of the saving gospel to people that died without ever hearing the gospel, the way to redemption, such as those that perished in the Flood (the example given), so that they might turn and be saved.

blü 2 · Jun 2, 2020

KenS said:
That would be true if your foundation is true. I hold that love is spiritual that has a natural effect on the body.

I have the evidence. You have faith.

Which is why I'm interested in how you define "truth".

KenS said:
Again.... "describable material form" because that is what you believe?

What else does 'real' mean if not having objective existence?

KenS said:
Materiality is composed of wave lengths that can be measured but not seen. Science has not learned everything.

No, and being based on empiricism and induction, it never will. The only absolute statement is that there are no absolute statements. This is the background to the question, How does God know [he]'s omniscient? How does [he] know there aren't things [he] doesn't know [he] doesn't know? Science makes no such pretense.

KenS said:
Your position is a hypothesis of your personal viewpoint derived by what you have determined God is.

I have no idea what a real god is. Nor, apparently, does anyone else, including ─ and please correct me if I'm wrong ─ you.

As I may have said to you before, I can tell whether this keyboard I'm typing on is a buffalo, an ice cream, bicarbonate of soda, light in the violet band, even a unicorn, and it turns out to be none of those. If God is real, tell me the test that will determine whether my keyboard is God or not. There doesn't seem to be one because God is not considered to be real.

And if God is not real then God can only be conceptual / imaginary.

KenS said:
29 Then the Spirit of the Lord came upon Jephthah, and he passed over Gilead, and Manasseh, and passed over Mizpeh of Gilead, and from Mizpeh of Gilead he passed over unto the children of Ammon.30 And Jephthah vowed a vow unto the Lord, and said, If thou shalt without fail deliver the children of Ammon into mine hands,31 Then it shall be, that whatsoever cometh forth of the doors of my house to meet me, when I return in peace from the children of Ammon, shall surely be the Lord's, and I will offer it up for a burnt offering.

Where did God tell Jephthah to make that vow? Nowhere. Your apologetics is that just because the Spirit of the Lord is upon a person, everything he does or says must be from God whereas scriptures contradict that position. (examples given)

I said the matter was ambiguous. The text says that God is present with Jephthah in a special way.

Let me ask you this ─ did God at that time know that the result of the vow would be the sacrifice to [him] of Jephthah's daughter? If God is omniscient then [he] he indeed knew. (If God isn't omniscient but is omnipotent then [he] can make [him]self omniscient whenever [he] likes.)

And in that case God went ahead with the deal because [he] was happy with the price.

KenS said:
As I view it, you are projecting your belief system into scriptures to support your viewpoint at the expense of all other scriptures that prove you wrong.

Scriptures are simply ancient documents. They're to be read and understood just like any other ancient document. The interest is in what they say ─ the whole point is lost if a meaning is wished on them. Unfortunately Christians, starting with the authors of the NT, were very fond of doing just that. That would be consistent with the midrash tradition of Jewish religious thought, a practice of imaging what else a text might mean if you shake it free from its context and let your imagination loose on it.

Incidentally, my belief system is the one that says the document must speak for itself, and care is to be taken not to make it conform to any preconceptions, beliefs or desires on the reader's part.

KenS said:
... if, in a hypothesis, you find evidence where it is proven wrong, you change your hypothesis.

But the bible contradicts itself all the time. Each passage is to be weighed for what it says. Its relationship to other passages is a matter requiring care and objectivity. A pre-existing belief system ─ such as the notion that the bible is a coherent, coordinated single message ─ is more than unhelpful.

If

blü 2 · Jun 2, 2020

1213 said:
God knew there would not be any repenting.

If God is omniscient, [he] knows how to proceed so that there's repenting. If [he]'s omnipotent, then if [he] wants repenting [he]'ll get repenting.

Once you're omnipotent, ALL the bucks stop with you.

blü 2 · Jun 2, 2020

1213 said:
They were for them to have wives. But that is not same as to rape, or do you rape your wife, is it ok to rape wife?

Oh, really? You think these women were being offered a choice by the soldiers who'd just massacred their parents, siblings, relatives, friends and community?

You surprise me.

blü 2 · Jun 2, 2020

halbhh said:
Why the Canaanites were to removed, and the land given to Israel --

29“When the LORD your God cuts off before you the nations whom you go in to dispossess, and you dispossess them and dwell in their land, 30 take care that you be not ensnared to follow them, after they have been destroyed before you, and that you do not inquire about their gods, saying, ‘How did these nations serve their gods?—that I also may do the same.’ 31 You shall not worship the LORD your God in that way, for every abominable thing that the LORD hates they have done for their gods, for they even burn their sons and their daughters in the fire to their gods."

"..even..."

Child sacrifice is the worst of all their evils, He says here.

That's a bit rich, coming from someone who's going to sacrifice [his] own son to [him]self.

And what was the sacrifice of Isaac about if not a proposed child sacrifice? Abraham didn't think the boss was joking.

And what about Jephthah's daughter? She counts as a child. That sacrifice couldn't have gone ahead without God's complicity.

And what about the seven sons of Saul, killed by impalement "before the Lord"?

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