Does Satan Help Us Love?

Mestemia said:

Again i disagree
He declares "thou shalt not kill" yet commands whole villages slaughtered to include women, children, livestock, and trees.

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You are misquoting. God said thou shalt not murder. There is a huge difference between murder and killing.

Murder is killing an innocent person for your own personal vendetta or whatever you wish.

Killing is like in the act of war and disputes.

natey said:

You are misquoting.

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It's not a misquote if it's from the KJV, though it may be a mistranslation there.

natey said:

You are misquoting. God said thou shalt not murder. There is a huge difference between murder and killing.

Murder is killing an innocent person for your own personal vendetta or whatever you wish.

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If it makes you feel better to word this way: Why did God order the murder of innocent women, children, livestock, and trees?

natey said:

Killing is like in the act of war and disputes.

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Murder is an illegal killing.
This still does not explain why God ordered the slaughter of innocent women, children, livestock, and trees. The only way to justify it is to claim God is not bound by Gods own rules.

twirlybirdy said:

God made us perfect in the beginning, the Eve sinned and made everything not perfect. So therefore, we were perfect but our human nature (free will ) sent us to disobey Gods will

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And my argument is that if God made Eve perfect, then Eve could not have chosen imperfection. For to choose imperfection shows that imperfection was already there. Since the imperfection was already there then it came from Gods creation of the imperfection within Eve.

Therefore, God created Faulty humans and then blames them for the fault.

Murder is an illegal killing.
This still does not explain why God ordered the slaughter of innocent women, children, livestock, and trees. The only way to justify it is to claim God is not bound by Gods own rules.

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Give me the verse and I will look into it. If you really want to get into knitty gritty stuff God can kill whoever he wants because none of us our worthy of his mercy. Hence, the flood. Bunch of evil people + angry God = a lot of water

Mestemia said:

And my argument is that if God made Eve perfect, then Eve could not have chosen imperfection. For to choose imperfection shows that imperfection was already there. Since the imperfection was already there then it came from Gods creation of the imperfection within Eve.

Therefore, God created Faulty humans and then blames them for the fault.

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You're viewing perfection as an eternal state of mind. To be perfect means that they have yet to sin. As soon as they sin they are not perfect anymore. Just because one is without sin doesn't mean they can't sin.

natey said:

Give me the verse and I will look into it. If you really want to get into knitty gritty stuff God can kill whoever he wants because none of us our worthy of his mercy. Hence, the flood. Bunch of evil people + angry God = a lot of water

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And here lies the fundamental difference in our beliefs.
I do not believe that God is unaccountable for His actions.

I also do not believe that just because God made humans that God gets to arbitrarily obliterate them.
He has a responsibility to that which He creates.
Just like I have a responsibility for my children.

natey said:

You're viewing perfection as an eternal state of mind. To be perfect means that they have yet to sin. As soon as they sin they are not perfect anymore. Just because one is without sin doesn't mean they can't sin.

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I view perfect as flawless.
For eve to have been perfect, she could not have a flaw. Since she was not afraid of death and chose sin she showed a flaw, thus she was not perfect.

lunamoth said:

This is not a well-developed thought on my part, but it crossed my mind that perhaps the objectification of Satan is a mechanism that helps us truely Love our enemies, as well as our neighbors and ourselves.

If we can blame all suffering, pain, hatred, etc. on the Enemy, does that free us to forgive ourselves and each other?

Whether you see Satan as en entity/ being who works against us or as a metaphor for our own limitations, desires, and the attachments that keep us from living our Chirst-life, isn't the threat exactly the same?

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I am not Christian, but I think Satan as part of the traditional Christian psyche functions as a mechanism for solidarity in Christian belief or identification as a Christian rather than helping to love per se (although an ideal Christian may be equated with love. Is it?). The same mechanism functions within the US psyche. Having a common enemy induces solidarity working off a perception that while behind the US border you have freedom that some-else is planning to take away. Not that this is uniquely Christian or American. Look at how the Islamic world views Americans.

Oz

Mestemia said:

And here lies the fundamental difference in our beliefs.
I do not believe that God is unaccountable for His actions.

I also do not believe that just because God made humans that God gets to arbitrarily obliterate them.
He has a responsibility to that which He creates.
Just like I have a responsibility for my children.

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Apparently you have a pride issue. God can do whatever He wants to do, He is infinitely greater than any human being. If you think you are so special that He should be nice to you, think again.

And you didn't show me the verse...

Mestemia said:

I view perfect as flawless.
For eve to have been perfect, she could not have a flaw. Since she was not afraid of death and chose sin she showed a flaw, thus she was not perfect.

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Your view of perfect lacks the inclusion of time. For a period of time Eve was perfect cause she had yet to disobey God. But at a certain point in time she disobeyed God and then became imperfect. I am putting it as plainly as possible, I'm not going to waste any more time on it.

natey said:

Apparently you have a pride issue. God can do whatever He wants to do, He is infinitely greater than any human being. If you think you are so special that He should be nice to you, think again.

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I am merely holding God to his own standards.

natey said:

And you didn't show me the verse...

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Suppose you hear in one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you that some worthless rabble among you have led their fellow citizens astray by encouraging them to worship foreign gods. In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully. If you find it is true and can prove that such a detestable act has occurred among you, you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock. Then you must pile all the plunder in the middle of the street and burn it. Put the entire town to the torch as a burnt offering to the LORD your God. That town must remain a ruin forever; it may never be rebuilt. Keep none of the plunder that has been set apart for destruction. Then the LORD will turn from his fierce anger and be merciful to you. He will have compassion on you and make you a great nation, just as he solemnly promised your ancestors. "The LORD your God will be merciful only if you obey him and keep all the commands I am giving you today, doing what is pleasing to him." (Deuteronomy 13:13-19 NLT)

natey said:

Your view of perfect lacks the inclusion of time. For a period of time Eve was perfect cause she had yet to disobey God. But at a certain point in time she disobeyed God and then became imperfect. I am putting it as plainly as possible, I'm not going to waste any more time on it.

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Inclusion of time?
Are you serious?
This seriously sounds like a grasping at straws.


I view perfect as being flawless. Which means any flaw is an imperfection which would mean it was never perfect to begin with.

Mestemia said:

Suppose you hear in one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you that some worthless rabble among you have led their fellow citizens astray by encouraging them to worship foreign gods. In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully. If you find it is true and can prove that such a detestable act has occurred among you, you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock. Then you must pile all the plunder in the middle of the street and burn it. Put the entire town to the torch as a burnt offering to the LORD your God. That town must remain a ruin forever; it may never be rebuilt. Keep none of the plunder that has been set apart for destruction. Then the LORD will turn from his fierce anger and be merciful to you. He will have compassion on you and make you a great nation, just as he solemnly promised your ancestors. "The LORD your God will be merciful only if you obey him and keep all the commands I am giving you today, doing what is pleasing to him." (Deuteronomy 13:13-19 NLT)

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And how were these people innocent? They were worshipping foreign gods and God told anyone to punish them. I don't see anything wrong with that, they were far from innocent as you were saying.

Mestemia said:

Inclusion of time?
Are you serious?
This seriously sounds like a grasping at straws.
I view perfect as being flawless. Which means any flaw is an imperfection which would mean it was never perfect to begin with.

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See, the reason is, you have a different perspective of perfect. God is perfect because he cannot disobey Himself, He does only what He wants to do. Now He made us on the other hand without sin (perfect) but gave us the ability to choose. We disobeyed Him and then became imperfect. Your saying that God created something imperfect, how is it possible for God to do that? How can God the ultimate and supreme being make something flawed and something that Has already sinned against Him (again if you're viewing my perspective of perfect).

natey said:

And how were these people innocent? They were worshipping foreign gods and God told anyone to punish them. I don't see anything wrong with that, they were far from innocent as you were saying.

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Guilty according to whom?
A God who is considered Just merely because he said so?
A God that is considered perfect merely because of his status as God?

natey said:

See, the reason is, you have a different perspective of perfect. God is perfect because he cannot disobey Himself, He does only what He wants to do. Now He made us on the other hand without sin (perfect) but gave us the ability to choose. We disobeyed Him and then became imperfect. Your saying that God created something imperfect, how is it possible for God to do that? How can God the ultimate and supreme being make something flawed and something that Has already sinned against Him (again if you're viewing my perspective of perfect).

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First off, i do not believe that God is 'omni' anything. Can he create a rock to heavy for himself to lift?
Normally this question would be a nonsensical one, however for those who claim that "God can do anything," or that "God is all powerful," or that "there is no limit to what God can do," it is, in fact, a legitimate question.

I also believe that the Bible supports God changing his mind, thus meaning he is not 'unchanging.' Sending Christ to fulfill the original law He set down is the strongest evidence that God changed his mind.


Back to the original question:

lunamoth said:

If we can blame all suffering, pain, hatred, etc. on the Enemy, does that free us to forgive ourselves and each other?

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How is this anything but deceipt?
To scapegoat 'the enemy' in order to love/forgive someone.. isn't that merely removing responsibility from the guilty party?

Mestemia said:

Back to the original question: How is this anything but deceipt?
To scapegoat 'the enemy' in order to love/forgive someone.. isn't that merely removing responsibility from the guilty party?

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Who is guility?

*By the way, I do accept that people must be held accountable for their actions in society, but I'm speaking here of righteousness with God and forgiveness by fellow humans.*

Mestemia said:

Guilty according to whom?
A God who is considered Just merely because he said so?
A God that is considered perfect merely because of his status as God?

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Here in lies your problem. You don't believe God is any greater than you are yourself. We are talking about a God who created you and everything in the world.

Mestemia said:

First off, i do not believe that God is 'omni' anything. Can he create a rock to heavy for himself to lift?
Normally this question would be a nonsensical one, however for those who claim that "God can do anything," or that "God is all powerful," or that "there is no limit to what God can do," it is, in fact, a legitimate question.

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Ah the famouse can God create a rock to heavy for himself to lift. Let's look at this logically. God has infinite strength therefore no it is not possible for him to create a rock to heavy for himself to lift.

God only does His will and what He wants to do, He is certainly capable of doing anything that doesn't involve sin(not possible to disobey Himself).

Mestemia said:

I also believe that the Bible supports God changing his mind, thus meaning he is not 'unchanging.' Sending Christ to fulfill the original law He set down is the strongest evidence that God changed his mind.

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God has knowledge of everything therefore when He makes a decision it's final. He knows everything that is going to happen so there is no reason for Him to change His mind. That was just a temporary atonement for the current situation, Jesus came down as the permanent sacrifice.

natey said:

Here in lies your problem. You don't believe God is any greater than you are yourself. We are talking about a God who created you and everything in the world.

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While you are at it, why not tell me what else I believe.
This way you can select for me beliefs that are easier for you to argue.

The fact is that I disagree witht he theory that just because he created things he has to be perfect. Just because he created things he has the right to destroy it.

This is like saying that I have the right to kill my children because I created them.

natey said:

Ah the famouse can God create a rock to heavy for himself to lift. Let's look at this logically. God has infinite strength therefore no it is not possible for him to create a rock to heavy for himself to lift.

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So God does have limited power.

natey said:

God only does His will and what He wants to do, He is certainly capable of doing anything that doesn't involve sin(not possible to disobey Himself).

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Why?
Why is it not possible for an all powerful deity to not disobey himself?
I know tons of parents (who are all non-all powerful humans) who disobey themselves.
It is more commonly refered to as having a "double standard."

natey said:

God has knowledge of everything therefore when He makes a decision it's final. He knows everything that is going to happen so there is no reason for Him to change His mind. That was just a temporary atonement for the current situation, Jesus came down as the permanent sacrifice.

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Nice try.
But the fact is God (as Jesus) changed his mind about the laws of the OT.
If there was no change in mind then the 613 commandments of the OT would still be in effect.

However there is the possibility that God purposely set man up to fail in the OT in order to send himself as Jesus to save us from ourselves.
But something tells me you will like this idea even less.

lunamoth said:

Who is guility?

*By the way, I do accept that people must be held accountable for their actions in society, but I'm speaking here of righteousness with God and forgiveness by fellow humans.*

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My apologies then.
For I must confess that I understand not what it is you are actually asking.

Mestemia said:

While you are at it, why not tell me what else I believe.
This way you can select for me beliefs that are easier for you to argue.

The fact is that I disagree witht he theory that just because he created things he has to be perfect. Just because he created things he has the right to destroy it.

This is like saying that I have the right to kill my children because I created them.

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Far from it, are you all powerful, all knowing, all sufficient? Consequences are made by God's standards. The government makes the laws for peoples consequences, do they have a right to do that?

We sinned and disobeyed God, we do it all the time. He has the right to give us consequences. I'm not gonna argue this point with you anymore becuase you think God is just some average joe.

Mestemia said:

So God does have limited power.

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God can create a rock of infinite weight, yet He has infinite strength therefore He can lift any rock He creates. Your applying earthly values of weight and strength to God.

Mestemia said:

Why?
Why is it not possible for an all powerful deity to not disobey himself?
I know tons of parents (who are all non-all powerful humans) who disobey themselves.
It is more commonly refered to as having a "double standard."

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I think you just answered your own question. Non-powerful humans who have disobeyed the laws that God has set before them. God does not put rules on himself. We are people He is God, apparently you don't see the difference.

Mestemia said:

Nice try.
But the fact is God (as Jesus) changed his mind about the laws of the OT.
If there was no change in mind then the 613 commandments of the OT would still be in effect.
However there is the possibility that God purposely set man up to fail in the OT in order to send himself as Jesus to save us from ourselves.
But something tells me you will like this idea even less.

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Testament = a covenant

God did not change His mind. Like I said, God is all knowing, there is no need for Him to change His mind because nothing can surprise Him. The only reason there is an Old and New testament is because for some reason He decided to do it that way from the very beginning; He didn't just change His mind and say actually I think I'll try this now. He made up His mind at the beginning what He was gonna do, just because He changed how something happens does not mean that He all of a sudden chnaged His mind.

If you believe that God is all knowing then there is no reason for God to change His mind. The only reason we humans change our mind is when something goes wrong and we need to change plans and so we do something different. However if you could forsee everything that was going to happen, you can make up your mind about what you're going to do right there and then follow through with it. When God changed from Old Testament to New He made that decision long before.

Once again your applying time and earthly values to God. If you don't believe God is a supreme being then I'm not going to debate with you anymore.

Mestemia said:

My apologies then.
For I must confess that I understand not what it is you are actually asking.

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Yeah, sorry. I'm not being clear. I warned you that it was not a well-developed thought.

What I was trying to get at in the OP is that we have an ideal of Love thy enemy but they are doing things to harm us. How can we juxtapose really loving and forgiving someone when they are hurting us? But if we can realize that the harm being inflicted is not from their true nature, but a consequence of living in a fallen world (or the influence of Satan), does that make it easier for us to see them not only as our brothers, but as ourselves?

That's probably still not making much sense...nevermind.

lunamoth said:

This is not a well-developed thought on my part, but it crossed my mind that perhaps the objectification of Satan is a mechanism that helps us truely Love our enemies, as well as our neighbors and ourselves.

If we can blame all suffering, pain, hatred, etc. on the Enemy, does that free us to forgive ourselves and each other?

Whether you see Satan as en entity/ being who works against us or as a metaphor for our own limitations, desires, and the attachments that keep us from living our Chirst-life, isn't the threat exactly the same?

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Our purpose is to remember unconditional love, and practice it. IMHO Satan is God's blacksmith, he applies the pressure that brings out the purest parts of us. Placing blame on Satan might be somewhat useful, but only if you realize that Satan is not a person, and it resides within you, not outside of you. I do not see Satan as God's enemy, but more as the ying to his yang. God would not have allowed the existance of Satan if it did not serve some purpose towards unconditional love.

natey said:

Far from it, are you all powerful, all knowing, all sufficient? Consequences are made by God's standards. The government makes the laws for peoples consequences, do they have a right to do that?

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That is what I am doing, Holding God to Gods standards.
It is not the fault of mine that the picture of God you paint fails.

natey said:

We sinned and disobeyed God, we do it all the time. He has the right to give us consequences. I'm not gonna argue this point with you anymore becuase you think God is just some average joe.

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once again with dictating to me my beliefs.

natey said:

God can create a rock of infinite weight, yet He has infinite strength therefore He can lift any rock He creates. Your applying earthly values of weight and strength to God.

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No I am not.
You are attempting a strawman by making the claim though.

natey said:

I think you just answered your own question. Non-powerful humans who have disobeyed the laws that God has set before them. God does not put rules on himself. We are people He is God, apparently you don't see the difference.

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I see.
A 'do as I say, not as I do" defense.

natey said:

Testament = a covenant

God did not change His mind. Like I said, God is all knowing, there is no need for Him to change His mind because nothing can surprise Him. The only reason there is an Old and New testament is because for some reason He decided to do it that way from the very beginning; He didn't just change His mind and say actually I think I'll try this now. He made up His mind at the beginning what He was gonna do, just because He changed how something happens does not mean that He all of a sudden chnaged His mind.

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Then God purposely set man up to fail (OT) so he could send himself (as Jesus) to save man from man?
Interesting picture you paint of your God.

natey said:

If you believe that God is all knowing then there is no reason for God to change His mind. The only reason we humans change our mind is when something goes wrong and we need to change plans and so we do something different. However if you could forsee everything that was going to happen, you can make up your mind about what you're going to do right there and then follow through with it. When God changed from Old Testament to New He made that decision long before.

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again: Then God purposely set man up to fail (OT) so he could send himself (as Jesus) to save man from man?
Interesting picture you paint of your God.

natey said:

Once again your applying time and earthly values to God. If you don't believe God is a supreme being then I'm not going to debate with you anymore.

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I never said that God was not a supreme being.
I said that God is not 'omni' anything.

EnhancedSpirit said:

Our purpose is to remember unconditional love, and practice it. IMHO Satan is God's blacksmith, he applies the pressure that brings out the purest parts of us. Placing blame on Satan might be somewhat useful, but only if you realize that Satan is not a person, and it resides within you, not outside of you. I do not see Satan as God's enemy, but more as the ying to his yang. God would not have allowed the existance of Satan if it did not serve some purpose towards unconditional love.

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That's a good reply ES (and great to see again!). I also have a difficult time with the Christian version of Satan. What you've described sounds more like the Jewish version of Satan. I don't see Satan as a ying to God's yang, but in Jewish tradition if I understand correctly he does have a role to play and is under the rule of God.

I think your last sentence is particularly interesting and related to what I was trying to get at in my OP. Thank you!