I am actually not interested in choosing anything to argue against apologetics, the bible contains what is written, apologetics doesnt
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The Good, the Bad and God
- Thread starter blü 2
- Start date
I am actually not interested in choosing anything to argue against apologetics, the bible contains what is written, apologetics doesnt
I would consider it more like following scriptures, as i have indicated earlier, condemnation of difference
halbhh
The wonder and awe of "all things".
Just the text then, but with all the context....?
After the slow, incremental progression upward, and finally a Transformer, the Christ, today Christians are under this final form of the law:
Matthew 7:12 In everything, then, do to others as you would have them do to you. For this is the essence of the Law and the Prophets.
Which takes such forms as: Mark 12:31 The second is this: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' No other commandment is greater than these."
So, see, the question of whether someone follows that law depends on just whether they really do believe in what Christ taught, or not -- the telling proof one way or the other of the real attitude is in their actual, real life actions.
If we want to find some that don't follow those, it's very easy, out of the hundreds of millions that call themselves Christian.
But, the more interesting question to me is whether there are a significant group that actually do follow these. I've found out a lot of individuals locally in places I've lived that actually do, therefore there must be significant number across a nation, in total. Maybe even something like 20% or 30% of a church membership, for instance. That would add up to quite a few.
Ahh, so you need an apologist designed time machine. We are discussing the OT, not stuff written hundreds/thousands of years after the abrahamic god condoned rape, slavery, theft and then killed everyone (except his good buddy) who didnt do what he said?
Enjoy
Have you considered the possibility that there is a mix of universal teachings and time- and society-specific teachings in those religions, that the former are the ones applicable in all times and places and the latter were never meant to be applied all of the time and in every place?
MJFlores
Well-Known Member
The Old Testament [including the Tanakh and the writings of the Prophets] is an essential part of the New Testament. The OT writings fulfill the NT writings. And Jesus Christ is the fulfillment as the Lord himself spoke:
John 5:39 New International Version (NIV)
You study the Scriptures diligently because you think that in them you have eternal life. These are the very Scriptures that testify about me,
Jesus Christ said these very Old Testament Scriptures testify about him. Now, there are passages in the Old Testament which prophesied the coming of the Christ. These were prophesied by the different prophets, including Moses.
Deuteronomy 18:15 New International Version (NIV)
The Lord your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among you, from your fellow Israelites. You must listen to him.
Ezekiel 37:24, 25-27 New International Version (NIV)
“‘My servant David will be king over them, and they will all have one shepherd. They will follow my laws and be careful to keep my decrees.
They will live in the land I gave to my servant Jacob, the land where your ancestors lived. They and their children and their children’s children will live there forever, and David my servant will be their prince forever. I will make a covenant of peace with them; it will be an everlasting covenant. I will establish them and increase their numbers, and I will put my sanctuary among them forever. My dwelling place will be with them; I will be their God, and they will be my people.
Hosea 11:1 New International Version (NIV)
“When Israel was a child, I loved him,
and out of Egypt I called my son.
Isaiah 53:5 New International Version (NIV)
But he was pierced for our transgressions,
he was crushed for our iniquities;
the punishment that brought us peace was on him,
and by his wounds we are healed.
And many more verses prophesying the Messiah, the Lord Jesus Christ.
So the Old Testament is an indispensable part of the New Testament
Both completes the whole story and it shows the love of God from one generation to the next
Jeremiah 31:31-32 New International Version (NIV)
“The days are coming,” declares the Lord,
“when I will make a new covenant
with the people of Israel
and with the people of Judah.
It will not be like the covenant
I made with their ancestors
when I took them by the hand
to lead them out of Egypt,
because they broke my covenant,
though I was a husband to them,”
declares the Lord.
And that new covenant was introduced by the Lord Jesus Christ as mentioned in the new testament.
Luke 22:20 New International Version (NIV)
In the same way, after the supper he took the cup, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which is poured out for you.
I give the same attention to ancient documents as to modern. The aim is to understand.
In my quest for understanding I'm still waiting for you to explain the blood sacrifice of Jephthah's daughter to me - why human sacrifice in return for military advantage is moral, why it's fair to the victim, why if it's part of your morality you're not out there advocating it as a remedy against coronavirus.
Persuade me about the sheer goodness of killing your daughter for advantage.
That's what this thread is about, after all.
This is something else I've had a close look at. Alas, my conclusions are diametrically opposed to yours.
I don't doubt that the authors of the gospels were familiar with the Septuagint. But their ideas about 'fulfillment of prophecy' are, to put it politely, fanciful. Jesus is mentioned nowhere in the Tanakh, and simply doesn't fit the Tanakh's concept of a messiah. Why the Jews should be accused of "rejecting Jesus" escapes me altogether ─ if there was an historical Jesus at all, he was such a small-time player in the Jerusalem religious industry that not one contemporary mention of him survives anywhere, and not one person who may have known him left any record either. He was not a religious leader, not a civil or military leader, and he was never anointed by the Jewish priesthood ─ what was there for the Jews to recognize?
You only have to look at Jesus being born of a virgin to realize the story is a fiction devised to allow Jesus to conform to the Septuagint's "parthenos" ─ virgin ─ in Isaiah 7:14 ─ which misleadingly translates Hebrew 'almah, young woman ─ and to notice this refers to an entirely different individual who lived and died back in that time. You only have to read Isaiah's 'Suffering Servant' to realize it denotes the nation of Israel, not any future being. You only have to notice Matthew's Jesus riding into Jerusalem mounted on a foal AND a donkey (RF's autocensor won't let me write ***) (Matthew 21:5-6) to self-consciously 'fulfill' Zecharaiah 9:9, or the invention of Herod's 'Massacre of the Innocents' (entirely unhistorical) in order to get Jesus into Egypt so that he could come out of Egypt and 'fulfill' Hosea 11.1, which if you read them say something else entirely. The list of such fictions is long, and no secret is made of the reason for inventing them.
But I dare say you don't see it that way.
It is interesting if you see rape in there. Would you have raped the girls in that case?
God has given life, so I think He has the right to decide how long it lasts and I think He wouldn’t have to let anyone to live forever. I think it is good, if He allows only righteous to live forever.
These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.
Mat. 25:46
For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Romans 6:23
If unrighteous people would live eternally, they would make life eternal suffering for all.
If I was the sort of person who carries out massacres of defeated men, women, children and animals, such as God ordered the Israelites to be, and as they indeed were, then why not? I'm not the product of the Bronze Age, so personally I don't ─ but why would you think Moses' soldiery were models of middle-class 21st century manners?
Do you own slaves, not suffer witches to live, and put to death the children in your zone who diss their parents? That's all ordained in the bible, as you know and strive to live up to, no?
I don't think any of that is an accurate statement about reality, so I suspect we're not going to agree.
I don't think those are accurate statements about reality either.
As Woody Allen is said to have said, Eternity is very long, especially towards the end. But the soul, as I understand it, has no biochemistry, hence is incapable of memory or personality or emotions; has no sensory organs, hence is incapable of perception; and has no point, at least that I can see.
It seems odd, doesn't it, that with so many souls in the world, there isn't even one we can take into the lab to see whether any of the claims are correct.
MJFlores
Well-Known Member
Isn't that strange enough?
That even when he was an infant, he already have some following?
And Facebook and Instagram needed to appear 2,000 years later.
Please see Luke 2:8-20
The prophecy
Micah 5:2 New International Version (NIV)
“But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah,
though you are small among the clans of Judah,
out of you will come for me
one who will be ruler over Israel,
whose origins are from of old,
from ancient times.”
It is correct that Jesus wasn't a religious, political, military leader. In fact people during his time on earth, questioned, demanded proofs and even mocked his upbringing.
Matthew 12:38 New International Version (NIV)
Then some of the Pharisees and teachers of the law said to him, “Teacher, we want to see a sign from you.”
Mark 6:3 New International Version (NIV)
Isn’t this the carpenter? Isn’t this Mary’s son and the brother of James, Joseph, Judas and Simon? Aren’t his sisters here with us?” And they took offense at him.
Yet they call him teacher even by the vilest Pharisees.
How come Jesus Christ, had that great following?
What did the Israelites during his time knew about Jesus?
Acts 2:22 New International Version (NIV)
“Fellow Israelites, listen to this: Jesus of Nazareth was a man accredited by God to you by miracles, wonders and signs, which God did among you through him, as you yourselves know.
And the Bible lists some of the many miracles, wonders and signs
God performed through the man Jesus of Nazareth.
These are just a matter of semantics.
A young woman during the Israelites' time is honored and presumed to be a virgin
In fact if the husband finds later on that she isn't a virgin - he could file for a divorce by showing the bed sheet
Now a young woman today, in our time - is a different matter [don't presume anything]
Young Woman before compared to Young Woman today
So it is a matter of semantics and it would really depend on what time period we are talking about.
But that is me explaining on my own not from the Bible.
Now let us take the explanation from the Bible:
When a young woman is to be the wife of a man, the Israelites have this rule that the young woman must be a virgin...or else:
Deuteronomy 22:13-24 New International Version (NIV)
If a man takes a wife and, after sleeping with her, dislikes her and slanders her and gives her a bad name, saying, “I married this woman, but when I approached her, I did not find proof of her virginity,” then the young woman’s father and mother shall bring to the town elders at the gate proof that she was a virgin. Her father will say to the elders, “I gave my daughter in marriage to this man, but he dislikes her. Now he has slandered her and said, ‘I did not find your daughter to be a virgin.’ But here is the proof of my daughter’s virginity.” Then her parents shall display the cloth before the elders of the town, and the elders shall take the man and punish him. They shall fine him a hundred shekels of silver and give them to the young woman’s father, because this man has given an Israelite virgin a bad name. She shall continue to be his wife; he must not divorce her as long as he lives.
If, however, the charge is true and no proof of the young woman’s virginity can be found, she shall be brought to the door of her father’s house and there the men of her town shall stone her to death. She has done an outrageous thing in Israel by being promiscuous while still in her father’s house. You must purge the evil from among you.
If a man is found sleeping with another man’s wife, both the man who slept with her and the woman must die. You must purge the evil from Israel.
If a man happens to meet in a town a virgin pledged to be married and he sleeps with her, you shall take both of them to the gate of that town and stone them to death—the young woman because she was in a town and did not scream for help, and the man because he violated another man’s wife. You must purge the evil from among you.
So the Israelites of giving virginity a premium and one can refuse if that God given hymen is broken.
Unlike today when women can get away with it and carelessly lose their virginity before Grade 12.
That is the law in the OT.
Now what about Joseph who was engaged to be married to Mary? Let us take a look.
Matthew 1:18-25 New International Version (NIV)
This is how the birth of Jesus the Messiah came about: His mother Mary was pledged to be married to Joseph, but before they came together, she was found to be pregnant through the Holy Spirit. Because Joseph her husband was faithful to the law, and yet did not want to expose her to public disgrace, he had in mind to divorce her quietly.
But after he had considered this, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream and said, “Joseph son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary home as your wife, because what is conceived in her is from the Holy Spirit. She will give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus, because he will save his people from their sins.”
All this took place to fulfill what the Lord had said through the prophet: “The virgin will conceive and give birth to a son, and they will call him Immanuel” (which means “God with us”).
When Joseph woke up, he did what the angel of the Lord had commanded him and took Mary home as his wife. But he did not consummate their marriage until she gave birth to a son. And he gave him the name Jesus.
Was Mary a virgin before giving birth to Jesus?
If Mary wasn't and she was just a young woman why then Joseph been contemplating to divorce her after finding her a belly too big for a virgin?
ecco
Veteran Member
21 grams experiment - Wikipedia
The 21 grams experiment refers to a scientific study published in 1907 by Duncan MacDougall, a physician from Haverhill, Massachusetts. MacDougall hypothesized that souls have physical weight, and attempted to measure the mass lost by a human when the soul departed the body. MacDougall attempted to measure the mass change of six patients at the moment of death. One of the six subjects lost three-fourths of an ounce (21.3 grams).
MacDougall stated his experiment would have to be repeated many times before any conclusion could be obtained. The experiment is widely regarded as flawed and unscientific due to the small sample size, the methods used, as well as the fact only one of the six subjects met the hypothesis.[1] The case has been cited as an example of selective reporting. Despite its rejection within the scientific community, MacDougall's experiment popularized the concept that the soul has weight, and specifically that it weighs 21 grams.
Perhaps someone should try again with better equipment.The 21 grams experiment refers to a scientific study published in 1907 by Duncan MacDougall, a physician from Haverhill, Massachusetts. MacDougall hypothesized that souls have physical weight, and attempted to measure the mass lost by a human when the soul departed the body. MacDougall attempted to measure the mass change of six patients at the moment of death. One of the six subjects lost three-fourths of an ounce (21.3 grams).
MacDougall stated his experiment would have to be repeated many times before any conclusion could be obtained. The experiment is widely regarded as flawed and unscientific due to the small sample size, the methods used, as well as the fact only one of the six subjects met the hypothesis.[1] The case has been cited as an example of selective reporting. Despite its rejection within the scientific community, MacDougall's experiment popularized the concept that the soul has weight, and specifically that it weighs 21 grams.
The above is posted as a sarcastic comment on the concept of souls.
MJFlores
Well-Known Member
Just assisting @KenS
Judges 11:30-40 New International Version (NIV)
And Jephthah made a vow to the Lord: “If you give the Ammonites into my hands, whatever comes out of the door of my house to meet me when I return in triumph from the Ammonites will be the Lord’s, and I will sacrifice it as a burnt offering.”
Then Jephthah went over to fight the Ammonites, and the Lord gave them into his hands. He devastated twenty towns from Aroer to the vicinity of Minnith, as far as Abel Keramim. Thus Israel subdued Ammon.
When Jephthah returned to his home in Mizpah, who should come out to meet him but his daughter, dancing to the sound of timbrels! She was an only child. Except for her he had neither son nor daughter. When he saw her, he tore his clothes and cried, “Oh no, my daughter! You have brought me down and I am devastated. I have made a vow to the Lord that I cannot break.”
“My father,” she replied, “you have given your word to the Lord. Do to me just as you promised, now that the Lord has avenged you of your enemies, the Ammonites. But grant me this one request,” she said. “Give me two months to roam the hills and weep with my friends, because I will never marry.”
“You may go,” he said. And he let her go for two months. She and her friends went into the hills and wept because she would never marry. After the two months, she returned to her father, and he did to her as he had vowed. And she was a virgin.
From this comes the Israelite tradition that each year the young women of Israel go out for four days to commemorate the daughter of Jephthah the Gileadite.
Lessons to learn on this event:
- Jephthah made a vow to the Lord
- Jephthah's daughter agreed with his father's oath
- Jephthah and his daughter are God fearing people
As humans we are often fickle minded, wishy washy, ever changing and filled with double talk
When we say it, we should mean it.
Leviticus 19:12 New International Version (NIV)
“‘Do not swear falsely by my name and so profane the name of your God. I am the Lord.
Ah yes, three quarters of an ounce, 21 Grams as the movie had it. (Sounds like a drug deal these days,)
But MacDougall's approach was essentially correct ─ either the soul is real, and can in principle be found in the lab (WIMPy souls might present practical problems) or it's imaginary.
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You'll notice Judges 11:29 says "Then the Spirit of the Lord came upon Jephthah" and in this condition he made the vow we're speaking of. That is, the deal was made directly under the influence of God, and EITHER God knew what was going to happen, that Jephthah would be faced with sacrificing his daughter, OR God didn't know, but when [he] found out, [he] DID NOT CALL IT OFF and eg say [he]'d take a sheep instead &c.Just assisting @KenS
Judges 11:30-40 New International Version (NIV)
And Jephthah made a vow to the Lord: “If you give the Ammonites into my hands, whatever comes out of the door of my house to meet me when I return in triumph from the Ammonites will be the Lord’s, and I will sacrifice it as a burnt offering.”
Then Jephthah went over to fight the Ammonites, and the Lord gave them into his hands. He devastated twenty towns from Aroer to the vicinity of Minnith, as far as Abel Keramim. Thus Israel subdued Ammon.
When Jephthah returned to his home in Mizpah, who should come out to meet him but his daughter, dancing to the sound of timbrels! She was an only child. Except for her he had neither son nor daughter. When he saw her, he tore his clothes and cried, “Oh no, my daughter! You have brought me down and I am devastated. I have made a vow to the Lord that I cannot break.”
“My father,” she replied, “you have given your word to the Lord. Do to me just as you promised, now that the Lord has avenged you of your enemies, the Ammonites. But grant me this one request,” she said. “Give me two months to roam the hills and weep with my friends, because I will never marry.”
“You may go,” he said. And he let her go for two months. She and her friends went into the hills and wept because she would never marry. After the two months, she returned to her father, and he did to her as he had vowed. And she was a virgin.
From this comes the Israelite tradition that each year the young women of Israel go out for four days to commemorate the daughter of Jephthah the Gileadite.
Lessons to learn on this event:
It is all about being careful of swearing an oath/promise.
- Jephthah made a vow to the Lord
- Jephthah's daughter agreed with his father's oath
- Jephthah and his daughter are God fearing people
As humans we are often fickle minded, wishy washy, ever changing and filled with double talk
When we say it, we should mean it.
Leviticus 19:12 New International Version (NIV)
“‘Do not swear falsely by my name and so profane the name of your God. I am the Lord.
That is, Jephthah's daughter could not have been sacrificed without the direct complicity of God, who'd already called off the sacrifice of Isaac, and who later spared Jonah.
The question in this thread (in this instance regarding human sacrifice) is whether by our standards in 2020 human sacrifice is an atrocity, or whether it's still cool because God has approved of it on at least five occasions, and followed through with it on at least three (Jephthah's daughter, sons of Saul, Jesus), resulting at least nine deaths.
Which?
PruePhillip
Well-Known Member
Sorry, the people who have removed the "Christianity" from the Tanakh were Jewish rabbis and scribes in the
Middle Ages. They were confronted endlessly by Christian claims to their bible. A case to point is Psalm 22 and
Isaiah 53 - these verses speak of an innocent man dying for his people, rising again and seeing his message go
out into all the world. First Christians were Jews who recognized this was Jesus - the rest of the Jews
went into slavery and exile - as Jesus said they would.
I fear I'm having to say, That's not an accurate statement about reality, rather a lot in this thread.
The Tanakh was written by Jews and is a major part of their sacred scriptures. Nowhere does it refer to Jesus. It indicates the compass of the idea of a messiah. If there was an historical Jesus, then Jesus fits that description at no point, bring (as I've said to you before) neither a religious, a civil or a military leader, nor anointed by the Jewish priesthood. Nor (as I mentioned earlier in this thread) is there any contemporary reference to him in history, nor any mention of him by anyone who might actually have met him. From the perspective of a Jewish citizen he was either invisible or unremarkable.
It's also worth underlining that as a Jewish messiah, Jesus was also a total failure, obtaining no benefit for the citizens of Judea, and founding a religion that has been the generator of antisemitism and the greatest oppressors and killers of Jews of all time.
They still are ─ all of it nonsense since the Tanakh never mentions Jesus. (Independently of that, prophecy is nonsense in its own right, as we've also discussed.)
Please quote the part of Psalm 22 you're referring to. I see nothing useful to your argument there. And Psalm 53 is about Isaiah's Suffering Servant, and the Suffering Servant is the nation of Israel as it existed when Isaiah was written. It has nothing to do with Jesus, though a lot to do with the favorite Christian sport of retrofitting, which is how Mark got written in the first place, as its author moves his hero through various passages from the Tanakh which appear to him, apparently in the midrash tradition, to be able to be pressed into service as 'messianic prophecies'.