If God existed, would there be any atheists?

Trailblazer · May 30, 2020

ChristineM said:
Just as now there is no proof of gods but people believe in gods

So, what you are saying is that even if religion is NOT proof that God exists, some people will STILL believe in religion as proof of God(s)?.

icehorse · May 30, 2020

Trailblazer said:
I do not know the Qur'an very well.... Can you post some verses as examples of what you are saying?

You don't have to go very far - about 2 or 3 pages in, the second Surah. There are many other examples, but this is a good example, and it's especially meaningful as it has such a place of prominence in the book - argh.

Kenny · May 30, 2020

Trailblazer said:
If God existed, would there be any atheists?

This is a yes or no question, so please answer yes or no.

If you answer yes, please explain why there would still be atheists if God existed.

If you answer no, please explain why there would be no more atheists if God existed.

Thanks, Trailblazer

Yes...

Free will.

"And if it seem evil unto you to serve the Lord, choose you this day whom ye will serve;"

Evangelicalhumanist · May 30, 2020

Trailblazer said:
If God existed, would there be any atheists?

This is a yes or no question, so please answer yes or no.

If you answer yes, please explain why there would still be atheists if God existed.

If you answer no, please explain why there would be no more atheists if God existed.

Thanks, Trailblazer

I can only respond by asking why nobody ever asks a complete and coherent question about "God," and I can only conclude it's because they're terrified of a complete and coherent answer. Therefore, the question must always be constricted, limited, framed in such a way that no such answer is possible.

Therefore, to please the OP, my answer must be "yes or no." And having done so, I'm absolved of the need to answer "why."

shivsomashekhar · May 30, 2020

If God did not exist, would there be any theists?

The answer to this question is yes because theists are accepting the word of humans (parents, ancient book writers and story tellers). They are theists because they believe what they have been told by other humans. Gods's existence or lack there of, is not a critera for theism.

Samantha Rinne · May 30, 2020

Trailblazer said:
If God existed, would there be any atheists?

This is a yes or no question, so please answer yes or no.

If you answer yes, please explain why there would still be atheists if God existed.

If you answer no, please explain why there would be no more atheists if God existed.

Thanks, Trailblazer

Yes. God designed free will.

People are free to believe in any number of religions.

In fact, the only people God is said to actually punish are those who actively oppose God and (more importantly) actually hurt his followers. And only then in Last Days.

sun rise · May 30, 2020

Trailblazer said:
But if you were an atheist you could say God does not exist and that is why there are atheists, because you might believe that God would make sure everyone knows He exists if He exists.

The problem of text - I was joking.

Trailblazer · May 30, 2020

Evangelicalhumanist said:
I can only respond by asking why nobody ever asks a complete and coherent question about "God," and I can only conclude it's because they're terrified of a complete and coherent answer. Therefore, the question must always be constricted, limited, framed in such a way that no such answer is possible.

I asked for an opinion, yes or no, and why you think so. I asked why you think so NOT because I am terrified of a complete and coherent answer, but because I wanted a complete and coherent answer.

An opinion answer is possible, because people responded with their opinions and why they hold them, but of course nobody can know if there would be atheists if God existed, because nobody even knows if God exists as a fact.

Trailblazer · May 30, 2020

icehorse said:
You don't have to go very far - about 2 or 3 pages in, the second Surah. There are many other examples, but this is a good example, and it's especially meaningful as it has such a place of prominence in the book - argh.

Trailblazer said: But how could God create atheists, unless God took over their free will and forced them to be atheists?
Why would God do that, unless God wanted some people to NOT believe in Him, and why would God want that?

So, what in those pages indicates that God took over anyone's free will and forced them to be atheists?
What in those pages indicates that God wants some people NOT to believe in Him?

icehorse · May 30, 2020

Trailblazer said:
Trailblazer said: But how could God create atheists, unless God took over their free will and forced them to be atheists?
Why would God do that, unless God wanted some people to NOT believe in Him, and why would God want that?

So, what in those pages indicates that God took over anyone's free will and forced them to be atheists?
What in those pages indicates that God wants some people NOT to believe in Him?

This feels a little like LMGTFY, but here I've copy and pasted just the first 10% or so of Surah 2:

In the name of God, the Gracious, the Merciful.

1. Alif, Lam, Meem.

2. This is the Book in which there is no doubt, a guide for the righteous.

3. Those who believe in the unseen, and perform the prayers, and give from what We have provided for them.

4. And those who believe in what was revealed to you, and in what was revealed before you, and are certain of the Hereafter.

5. These are upon guidance from their Lord. These are the successful.

6. As for those who disbelieve—it is the same for them, whether you have warned them, or have not warned them—they do not believe.

7. God has set a seal on their hearts and on their hearing, and over their vision is a veil. They will have a severe torment.

8. Among the people are those who say, “We believe in God and in the Last Day,” but they are not believers.

9. They seek to deceive God and those who believe, but they deceive none but themselves, though they are not aware.

10. In their hearts is sickness, and God has increased their sickness. They will have a painful punishment because of their denial.

11. And when it is said to them, “Do not make trouble on earth,” they say, “We are only reformers.”

12. In fact, they are the troublemakers, but they are not aware.

13. And when it is said to them, “Believe as the people have believed,” they say, “Shall we believe as the fools have believed?” In fact, it is they who are the fools, but they do not know.

14. And when they come across those who believe, they say, “We believe”; but when they are alone with their devils, they say, “We are with you; we were only ridiculing.”

15. It is God who ridicules them, and leaves them bewildered in their transgression.

16. Those are they who have bartered error for guidance; but their trade does not profit them, and they are not guided.

17. Their likeness is that of a person who kindled a fire; when it illuminated all around him, God took away their light, and left them in darkness, unable to see.

18. Deaf, dumb, blind. They will not return.

19. Or like a cloudburst from the sky, in which is darkness, and thunder, and lightning. They press their fingers into their ears from the thunderbolts, in fear of death. But God surrounds the disbelievers.

20. The lightning almost snatches their sight away. Whenever it illuminates for them, they walk in it; but when it grows dark over them, they stand still. Had God willed, He could have taken away their hearing and their sight. God is capable of everything.

21. O people! Worship your Lord who created you and those before you, that you may attain piety.

22. He who made the earth a habitat for you, and the sky a structure, and sends water down from the sky, and brings out fruits thereby, as a sustenance for you. Therefore, do not assign rivals to God while you know.

23. And if you are in doubt about what We have revealed to Our servant, then produce a chapter like these, and call your witnesses apart from God, if you are truthful.

24. But if you do not—and you will not—then beware the Fire whose fuel is people and stones, prepared for the disbelievers.

25. And give good news to those who believe and do righteous deeds; that they will have gardens beneath which rivers flow. Whenever they are provided with fruit therefrom as sustenance, they will say, “This is what we were provided with before,” and they will be given the like of it. And they will have pure spouses therein, and they will abide therein forever.

26. God does not shy away from making an example of a gnat, or something above it. As for those who believe, they know that it is the Truth from their Lord. But as for those who disbelieve, they say, “What did God intend by this example?” He leads astray many thereby, and He guides many thereby; but He misleads thereby only the evildoers.

Evangelicalhumanist · May 30, 2020

Trailblazer said:
I asked for an opinion, yes or no, and why you think so. I asked why you think so NOT because I am terrified of a complete and coherent answer, but because I wanted a complete and coherent answer.

An opinion answer is possible, because people responded with their opinions and why they hold them, but of course nobody can know if there would be atheists if God existed, because nobody even knows if God exists as a fact.

No, you restricted the question itself so much that it is for many people impossible to answer. Here's your question: "If God existed, would there be any atheists? This is a yes or no question, so please answer yes or no. If you answer yes, please explain why there would still be atheists if God existed.
If you answer no, please explain why there would be no more atheists if God existed."
You left out so many possibilities -- let's look at a few:

"If God existed and wanted to be known would there be any atheists?"
"If God existed and did not want to be known would there be any atheists?"
"If God existed but could not connect or communicate with humans would there be any atheists?"
"If God existed but ceased to exist long before humans began to think about the question would there be any atheists?"
"If God existed but was incomprehensible to humans would there be any atheists?"
If God existed and was omnipotent, is there anything that He wanted that would not be?"

Now, the fact is that many of could answer most of those easily, but they are not within the bounds of what you insisted we answer. But given more freedom of choice, for example with some of my suggestions, I can answer you easily.

For me, I am going to assume my question 6 -- God is omnipotent -- and also that that omnipotence makes God's will fact. (That would be a pretty good way to describe what happens as the result of omnipotent will, don't you agree?)

Therefore, my answers must be as follows:

"If God existed and wanted to be known would there be any atheists?" Answer: no, omnipotence would make God's desire fact.
"If God existed and did not want to be known would there be any atheists?" Answer: yes, probably a lot more than exist now.
"If God existed but could not connect or communicate with humans would there be any atheists?" Answer: yes, probably a lot more than exist now.
"If God existed but ceased to exist long before humans began to think about the question would there be any atheists?" Answer: yes, probably a lot more than exist now.
"If God existed but was incomprehensible to humans would there be any atheists? How about I let you answer that one?

Trailblazer · May 30, 2020

icehorse said:
This feels a little like LMGTFY, but here I've copy and pasted just the first 10% or so of Surah 2:

Okay, thanks for the verses but I am not sure if I believe that God actually does all the stuff it says in the Qur'an, if that is from the Qur'an.

I am a Baha'i and Baha'u'llah never wrote such things so I am not obliged to believe that they apply to this age.
.
Mind you, even if God did reveal these things to Muhammad we are no longer living in the Dispensation of Muhammad so it is a moot point. Muhammad was certainly harsh on nonbelievers. I do not see that in the Writings of Baha'u'llah, and the reason is because we are now living in a new religious cycle. The previous cycle started with Adam and ended with Muhammad, who was the Seal of the Prophets because He closed off (ended) the Adamic Cycle of religion. The religious Cycle we are now living in is called the Baha'i Cycle (the Age of Fulfillment) and it started with the Bab and Baha'u'llah, who brought new teachings and laws.

"This cycle is the cycle of favor and not of justice. Therefore, those whose deeds are clean and pure, even though they are not believers, will not be deprived of the divine mercy; but perfection is in faith and deeds. Undoubtedly, a person, who is not a believer, but whose deeds and morals are good, is far better than one who claims his belief in words but, who, in actions, is a follower of satan. The Blessed Beauty says, 'My humiliation is not in my imprisonment, which, by my life, is an exaltation to me; nay rather, it is in the deeds of my friends, who attribute themselves to us and commit that which causes my heart and pen to weep!'"

(Attributed to 'Abdu'l-Bahá, Star of the West, vol. 9, issue 3, p. 29)

MonkeyFire · May 30, 2020

ChristineM said:
Yes, religion shows that even proof does not need to be believed.

Faith is beyond knowledge but still in congruence with it. If you believe something its true, if it's the truth you know it so. Faith is an instinctual feeling that judges the fate of nature and every living thing in it.

osgart · May 30, 2020

I do not think that a deist God would stay unknown for very long. And a benevolent God would lay down the law immediately.

There's no sensible reason to let evil go unrestrained and unchecked for either kind of God.

The other option is that we must choose the right way through a world of potentially unbearable suffering and blindness. The most attractive vice to human nature is false pride. And perhaps the most important virtue to humanity is humility. So in this world our fate's and destiny's depend on our choices regardless of what we believe; atheist, or theist. God perhaps desires ultimate hiddeness.

Nakosis · May 30, 2020

Trailblazer said:
If God existed, would there be any atheists?

This is a yes or no question, so please answer yes or no.

If you answer yes, please explain why there would still be atheists if God existed.

If you answer no, please explain why there would be no more atheists if God existed.

Thanks, Trailblazer

God's existence is not enough. Everyone would need absolute knowledge of God for there to be no atheists.

Trailblazer · May 30, 2020

Evangelicalhumanist said:
No, you restricted the question itself so much that it is for many people impossible to answer.

But they could give their opinion and/or they could ask me for further clarification about the kind of God I was referring to, and some people did just that.

Evangelicalhumanist said:
Here's your question: "If God existed, would there be any atheists? This is a yes or no question, so please answer yes or no. If you answer yes, please explain why there would still be atheists if God existed.
If you answer no, please explain why there would be no more atheists if God existed."
You left out so many possibilities -- let's look at a few:

I did not want to add the possibilities because I wanted people to think for themselves about those possibilities and present them.

Evangelicalhumanist said:
1. "If God existed and wanted to be known would there be any atheists?"
2. "If God existed and did not want to be known would there be any atheists?"
3. "If God existed but could not connect or communicate with humans would there be any atheists?"
4. "If God existed but ceased to exist long before humans began to think about the question would there be any atheists?"
5. "If God existed but was incomprehensible to humans would there be any atheists?"
6. If God existed and was omnipotent, is there anything that He wanted that would not be?"

Now, the fact is that many of could answer most of those easily, but they are not within the bounds of what you insisted we answer. But given more freedom of choice, for example with some of my suggestions, I can answer you easily.

I was not insisting on anything, I was leaving it open-ended. I did not want to give my own opinions because that would introduce a bias. I wanted people to do exactly what you just did

so thanks for your insightful questions and answers.

Evangelicalhumanist said:
For me, I am going to assume my question 6 -- God is omnipotent -- and also that that omnipotence makes God's will fact. (That would be a pretty good way to describe what happens as the result of omnipotent will, don't you agree?)

Yes, I agree that God’s omnipotence makes God’s will a fact, so if God existed and was omnipotent there would be nothing that God wanted that would not be. We know there are atheists so does that mean that God wants atheists to exist? No, it does not mean that. It rather means that God allows atheists to exist, and the reason God allows that is because God honors free will. God would prefer that everyone was a believer but God will never violate free will. That is why God will never make anyone believe in Him by proving unequivocally that He exists. This is one reason (among many) that God uses Messengers. By using Messengers, that gives everyone a choice whether to believe in the Messenger or not, and thus whether to believe in God or not.

Evangelicalhumanist said:
Therefore, my answers must be as follows:

My responses to your answers are below them in red.

Evangelicalhumanist said:
1. "If God existed and wanted to be known would there be any atheists?" Answer: no, omnipotence would make God's desire fact.

I disagree. God might exist and want to be known, but that does not mean that God would make Himself known. God might want us to search for Him on our own and try to find out if he exists.

Evangelicalhumanist said:
2. "If God existed and did not want to be known would there be any atheists?" Answer: yes, probably a lot more than exist now.

I fully agree. (And since there are not that many atheists, that indicates that God probably wants to be known.)

Evangelicalhumanist said:
3. "If God existed but could not connect or communicate with humans would there be any atheists?" Answer: yes, probably a lot more than exist now.

I fully agree. There would be atheists if God existed and could not communicate directly to humans, because that is the only kind of communication atheists are willing to accept; they are not willing to accept communication from God through a Messenger. So atheists would have to be willing to believe what the Messengers say about God (particularly their claim to be sent by God) in order to know that God exists.

Evangelicalhumanist said:
4. "If God existed but ceased to exist long before humans began to think about the question would there be any atheists?" Answer: yes, probably a lot more than exist now.

I do not believe that God can exist and then cease to exist, but if God ceased to exist I agree that there would be atheists, and a lot more than there are now.

Evangelicalhumanist said:
5. "If God existed but was incomprehensible to humans would there be any atheists?” How about I let you answer that one?

Yes, there would be atheists in that case, but everyone would not necessarily be an atheist because some people can accept that God is incomprehensible since that is written in the Scriptures of many religions.

icehorse · May 30, 2020

Trailblazer said:
Okay, thanks for the verses but I am not sure if I believe that God actually does all the stuff it says in the Qur'an, if that is from the Qur'an.

Really? Is it in keeping with Baha'i teachings to accuse a person of lying? In public? When my claims can soooo easily be verified?

hmmm..

Aupmanyav · May 30, 2020

Trailblazer said:
I do not know the Qur'an very well.... Can you post some verses as examples of what you are saying?

If someone is fixated on one thing, then the person may not know anything else.

Aupmanyav · May 30, 2020

KenS said:
"And if it seem evil unto you to serve the Lord, choose you this day whom ye will serve;"

Must I? I am under no compulsion. There can be many views. Evil, worthless, foolish.

Trailblazer said:
.. we are now living in a new religious cycle.

I think some people are living in the cycle of deceit or ignorance.

Trailblazer · May 30, 2020

osgart said:
I do not think that a deist God would stay unknown for very long.

Why not? How could we ever know a deist God if He did not reveal anything to us?

osgart said:
And a benevolent God would lay down the law immediately.

There's no sensible reason to let evil go unrestrained and unchecked for either kind of God.

God revealed the Most Great Law for us to follow, through Baha'u'llah.
If people followed His Laws there would be no evil in the world.

osgart said:
The other option is that we must choose the right way through a world of potentially unbearable suffering and blindness.

Or we could just trust the Messenger who was sent by God and see the Light of God and try to understand why suffering exists.

osgart said:
The most attractive vice to human nature is false pride. And perhaps the most important virtue to humanity is humility. So in this world our fate's and destiny's depend on our choices regardless of what we believe; atheist, or theist.

I agree, our fate lies in our choices.

osgart said:
God perhaps desires ultimate hiddeness.

Not ultimate hiddenness, just hidden enough so we will look under every rock.

If God existed, would there be any atheists?

Veteran Member

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist

Face to face with my Father

"Truth" isn't a thing...

Well-Known Member

Resident Genderfluid Writer/Artist

The world is on fire

Veteran Member

Veteran Member

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist

"Truth" isn't a thing...

Veteran Member

Well-Known Member

Nothing my eye, Something for sure

Non-Binary Physicalist

Veteran Member

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist

Be your own guru

Be your own guru

Veteran Member