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This is part of the reason we end up with total lockdowns

Tambourine

Well-Known Member
As controversial as it may sound, I would say yes that people need to determine a set number to where you would need to start taking more drastic measures.

I'm not a what if person, I'm more the one who advocates more drastic action when something actually happens. I'm sure I'm not alone when it comes to that mentality.
But that's exactly what governments did when they initiated the lockdowns. They asked epidemiologists and statisticians to determine what would be needed to keep the numbers of dead and sick people at a level that would be manageable for domestic healthcare institutions.

Had the pandemic spread uncontrollably, it would have quickly overwhelmed healthcare systems throughout the world, causing far more deaths than just the disease alone would have.

This is what happened in Italy: Some hospitals became so overcrowded with diseased people that they could no longer provide necessary care to patients, and due to overcrowding the disease spread to previously non-infected patients as well.

In most countries, the point of the lockdowns was never to prevent the disease from spreading at all, it was to keep its spread and the number of infected people at a level that could be managed by existing infrastructure.

Past plagues and diseases make great templates in regards to determining what is more serious and what is less serious when it comes to appropriate actions.
Many of these plagues became serious because people didn't take appropriate actions.

The Spanish flu initially spread rapidly through America in part because politicians were too afraid of the negative backlash of quarantine measures. And as more and more Americans became carriers, they carried that disease all over the world, which due to heavy wartime censorship was largely left in the dark about this pandemic until it was too late. The reason why it's called "Spanish" flu in the first place (even though it likely originated in the US) is because Spain was one of the few countries where the press was allowed to write freely about the disease.

On the other hand, some cities in medieval Europe were able to ride out the worst of the Bubonic plague by initiating Quarantines (the word actually comes from the Italian quarantena, a period of forty days that ship crews were required to isolate so they would not spread the disease). Of course, many would still be hit by the famines that were caused by the plague as well.
 

Twilight Hue

Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
But that's exactly what governments did when they initiated the lockdowns. They asked epidemiologists and statisticians to determine what would be needed to keep the numbers of dead and sick people at a level that would be manageable for domestic healthcare institutions.

Had the pandemic spread uncontrollably, it would have quickly overwhelmed healthcare systems throughout the world, causing far more deaths than just the disease alone would have.

This is what happened in Italy: Some hospitals became so overcrowded with diseased people that they could no longer provide necessary care to patients, and due to overcrowding the disease spread to previously non-infected patients as well.

In most countries, the point of the lockdowns was never to prevent the disease from spreading at all, it was to keep its spread and the number of infected people at a level that could be managed by existing infrastructure.


Many of these plagues became serious because people didn't take appropriate actions.

The Spanish flu initially spread rapidly through America in part because politicians were too afraid of the negative backlash of quarantine measures. And as more and more Americans became carriers, they carried that disease all over the world, which due to heavy wartime censorship was largely left in the dark about this pandemic until it was too late. The reason why it's called "Spanish" flu in the first place (even though it likely originated in the US) is because Spain was one of the few countries where the press was allowed to write freely about the disease.
I don't think people would really mind as much over the precautions one needs to take to help negate the spread and transmission.

The Crux of the issue is when a person's own livelihood and means of survival are being interfered to where it could reach the flashpoint where the mentality that there will be nothing left to lose thereafter will soon start taking charge of the situation.
 

Tambourine

Well-Known Member
I don't think people would really mind as much over the precautions one needs to take to help negate the spread and transmission.

The Crux of the issue is when a person's own livelihood and means of survival are being interfered to where it could reach the flashpoint where the mentality that there will be nothing left to lose thereafter will soon start taking charge of the situation.
Maybe the US government should have considered that problem and put in the necessary steps to prevent that from happening. For example, they could have given money to people who would struggle financially during the Pandemic, or provide homes for the homeless.

That said, it's not those people who have been complaining the loudest though, as far as I can tell. It seems to me that the dominant voices in that particular conversation were people from the White "middle class", i.e. higher paid working class and petite bourgeoisie, who brandished their expensive guns and complained about haircuts.
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Only if it's to the level of Typhoid Mary and people are dropping dead left and right. Do you think covid-19 is at the same level of Typhoid back in the day when it was at its worst?

What is the current professional medical advice on what should be done?

Therin lays the answer.

Regards Tony
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber
There's enough damage as it is and we don't need to lose our society because of it.
Is accepting reality really so hard? We were hit very hard with a natural disaster. And while unlike a tornado or huricane we aren't picking physical wreckage, we are still left to pick up the pieces. The sky is still dark, the winds are still furious. This is something that happens (and is still happening) and we must accept this. Without any restrictions it seems doubtful our number of dead would stay below the presicted one million. This virus isnt particularly deadly, no, but it is extremely contagious and were alreadg at 10% of that one million.
 

Good-Ole-Rebel

Well-Known Member
Please let us know when car accidents become highly contagious and transmissible. Then we'll work on a lockdown.

They happen every day. Every time you hit the road, you are contagious and transmissible.

Had you stayed at home, where you should have been, you would not have endangered others lives.

Don't you love your neighbor? Why would you risk their lives just for your driving pleasure?

Good-Ole-Rebel
 

Good-Ole-Rebel

Well-Known Member
Thats why I wont answer it. Loaded questions are traps, not questions. You are intersted only in harvesting certain responses, so you load a question to produce them.

I drive safely, I dont drive intoxicated. My chances of being a wreck that is my fault is minimal. With covid, even bieing safe has a high risk of passing it because the virus is extremely contagious.
Your the only one being silly by not recognizing this and thinking well be jusy fine without lockdowns. But that gets people killed. Such as Brazil, which is becoming the new global hotspot due to a reckless president, lack of social distancing, and a lack of lockdowns.

Sorry. That is the point of questions. Some are to request information. Some are to make the one you are talking to cognizant of some sense. Which is why you avoid my questions.

I don't care if you drive safely. The fact that you are getting on the road is endangering peoples lives. You may not know what could occur causing you to have an accident and kill people.

The only 'sensible' course is 'mobile lockdown'. Think how many lives it would save. Arn't you for saving lives.

How is it you can put people's lives at risk and love your neighbor?

Good-Ole-Rebel

Why is your privilege of driving more important than peoples lives?
 

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Hey I'm the first to accuse Republicans of things like the Patriot Act and such. I consider it a breach of the Constitution as it pertains to citizens. So you're right, Republicans are just as guilty in their own way. in fact with most of the people locked up in this nation the states with the most incarceration are Republican states. Much to my dismay mind you.

The Left however isn't much better.

If I'm going to vote, it'll be for a completely new third party that is very very center stage. You could say if a bunch of conservative Democrats and Liberal Republicans got together and brought forth new offspring of a brand new political family, one of compromise and flexibility, sense and sensibility, I'll be happy to throw myself in the fray and fly a new flag thereafter.
Maybe you should consider my party :D
Green party - Wikipedia
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber
Sorry. That is the point of questions
No, the point of a question is to obtain information, not force a dialogue down a certain path so you can spring a "gotcha trap."
Like it or not, safe driving poses minimal risk to others, mingling with others poses a great risk to others.
Another reason I will not answer is there is no way to prevent all deaths. This is more about damage control and reduction. Stay at home orders best achieve this, as evidenced by the virus spreading among masked and distanced choir singers, spreading aming panic buyers, spreading throughout spring breakers, and Easter Church Goers as well allowing a surge of cases to happen.
 

Good-Ole-Rebel

Well-Known Member
No, the point of a question is to obtain information, not force a dialogue down a certain path so you can spring a "gotcha trap."
Like it or not, safe driving poses minimal risk to others, mingling with others poses a great risk to others.
Another reason I will not answer is there is no way to prevent all deaths. This is more about damage control and reduction. Stay at home orders best achieve this, as evidenced by the virus spreading among masked and distanced choir singers, spreading aming panic buyers, spreading throughout spring breakers, and Easter Church Goers as well allowing a surge of cases to happen.

You don't answer because the answer show how ridiculous the shut down is and those like you who support it.

You're not listening. I don't care how safe a driver you or anyone else is. Because yall get on the road, you are a threat. You may kill yourself and someone or many someones.

This must stop. There are just too many deaths. And that doesn't include the injuries resulting in vegetative states of people. How terrible...don't you agree?

Surely if you love your neighbor you will support mobile shut down. I mean, how many lives will it take? Isn't 'one' too many? Who sets the bar? You?

Good-Ole-Rebel
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber
You don't answer because the answer show how ridiculous the shut down is and those like you who support it.
You reveal yourself for a ridiculous black and white position that refuses to acknowledge reality. Im not playing along with your game. Thats why I'm not anwering. Because you refuse to acknowledge reality, that most auto wrecks are the result of carelessness and that right now it's incredibly difficult--perhaps impossible for a pragmatic sollution--to safely socialize and gather in groups, especially indoors.
 

Good-Ole-Rebel

Well-Known Member
You reveal yourself for a ridiculous black and white position that refuses to acknowledge reality. Im not playing along with your game. Thats why I'm not anwering. Because you refuse to acknowledge reality, that most auto wrecks are the result of carelessness and that right now it's incredibly difficult--perhaps impossible for a pragmatic sollution--to safely socialize and gather in groups, especially indoors.

What is ridiculous is the 'shut down'. Probably done in ignorance, or a mistake, at the beginning. But now, it is all political.

So, live in a bubble. Sanitize yourself and everything around you that you touch. And then get ready to catch all kinds of sickness if you ever get out of your bubble.

Good-Ole-Rebel
 

SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
They happen every day. Every time you hit the road, you are contagious and transmissible.

Had you stayed at home, where you should have been, you would not have endangered others lives.

Don't you love your neighbor? Why would you risk their lives just for your driving pleasure?

Good-Ole-Rebel
No, I mean actually contagious and transmissible. Not metaphorically or whatever you're doing here.

And I'm sure you haven't failed to notice that we regulate the use of automobiles so as to minimize harm. We recognize that people are going to need cars to travel from point A to point B, while also acknowledging the dangers associated with said driving and how best to minimize those dangers.
Similarly, asking people to socially isolate or quarantine themselves during a global pandemic, and/or asking people to wear masks in public areas are behaviours we can all follow to minimize the risk of passing this virus around to everyone. We recognize that people are going to need to move around in public at some point, while also acknowledging the dangers associated with said movement and how best to minimize those dangers.

I do love many of my neighbours and care about their safety and well-being. I even care about strangers that I will probably never meet. I also don't own a car.
 

SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
You don't answer because the answer show how ridiculous the shut down is and those like you who support it.

You're not listening. I don't care how safe a driver you or anyone else is. Because yall get on the road, you are a threat. You may kill yourself and someone or many someones.

This must stop. There are just too many deaths. And that doesn't include the injuries resulting in vegetative states of people. How terrible...don't you agree?

Surely if you love your neighbor you will support mobile shut down. I mean, how many lives will it take? Isn't 'one' too many? Who sets the bar? You?

Good-Ole-Rebel
People tend to stop listening when someone flippantly repeats the same exact thing over and over again, instead of addressing counterarguments presented to them.:shrug:
 

Dan From Smithville

Recently discovered my planet of origin.
Staff member
Premium Member
Too often our laws are now made and created for the benefit of corrupt individuals and politicians. I actually think society would probably be better off if a man truly was a king of his own castle.

Of course we won't have a country anymore as we most assuredly will end up looking like feudal Japan or China in the old old days.

It's a little too off topic but I think it would make a good thread on its own though.
The original point you made regarded laws and the regulation of human nature. You have since moved that goal post, without mitigating your original position.

Laws are intended to regulate human nature.

In my opinion, a society where every member is a law unto themselves able to act without regard for other members would quickly fall into destruction.

If you do not like laws, then campaign against them with valid arguments for their dismissal. They might be overturned or not for your efforts. Until then, you follow the law or risk penalties.
 

Dan From Smithville

Recently discovered my planet of origin.
Staff member
Premium Member
Thats why I wont answer it. Loaded questions are traps, not questions. You are intersted only in harvesting certain responses, so you load a question to produce them.

I drive safely, I dont drive intoxicated. My chances of being a wreck that is my fault is minimal. With covid, even bieing safe has a high risk of passing it because the virus is extremely contagious.
Your the only one being silly by not recognizing this and thinking well be jusy fine without lockdowns. But that gets people killed. Such as Brazil, which is becoming the new global hotspot due to a reckless president, lack of social distancing, and a lack of lockdowns.
The driving/car example is sort of silly as a defense against precautions taken during the course of response to a pandemic. Over the history of the car we have continually regulated the use in order to increase and improve safety and reduce loss of life.
 

Dan From Smithville

Recently discovered my planet of origin.
Staff member
Premium Member
Please let us know when car accidents become highly contagious and transmissible. Then we'll work on a lockdown.
I wonder if it is that certain mindsets find the loss of life from auto accidents to be acceptable. As a whole, most do not. Regulation of the motor vehicle industry and the users has resulted in significant reductions to injury and loss of life, though the absolute numbers of annual deaths is relatively stable. The numbers per capita and per mile driven have been reduced significantly all through education and regulation.

Using car accidents as an example against actions taken to manage this pandemic is loaded, but on further scrutiny, it becomes clear what it is loaded with.
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber
So, live in a bubble. Sanitize yourself and everything around you that you touch. And then get ready to catch all kinds of sickness if you ever get out of your bubble.
So very Christian of you to (wrongly) assume and judge. Its a habit and trend of you True Believer types. You types always do guess wrong though.
 

Good-Ole-Rebel

Well-Known Member
No, I mean actually contagious and transmissible. Not metaphorically or whatever you're doing here.

And I'm sure you haven't failed to notice that we regulate the use of automobiles so as to minimize harm. We recognize that people are going to need cars to travel from point A to point B, while also acknowledging the dangers associated with said driving and how best to minimize those dangers.
Similarly, asking people to socially isolate or quarantine themselves during a global pandemic, and/or asking people to wear masks in public areas are behaviours we can all follow to minimize the risk of passing this virus around to everyone. We recognize that people are going to need to move around in public at some point, while also acknowledging the dangers associated with said movement and how best to minimize those dangers.

I do love many of my neighbours and care about their safety and well-being. I even care about strangers that I will probably never meet. I also don't own a car.

Car accident deaths and vegetated or maimed for life is not a metaphor.

Again, regulation and safe driving is not the point. The point is you can have all that and you still have an incredible number of deaths due to car accidents.

Answer, as with Corona lock down, we must have a mobile lock down.

Don't you agree that with a mobile lock down we would diminish the number of deaths considerably?

Good-Ole-Rebel
 

Good-Ole-Rebel

Well-Known Member
People tend to stop listening when someone flippantly repeats the same exact thing over and over again, instead of addressing counterarguments presented to them.:shrug:

If you don't want me to repeat it, quit responding. I haven't heard any counter arguments other than it is not the same thing.

The parallel of deaths with cars or deaths with Corona is the same.

So, why are we not locking down the mobile use of vehicles?

Good-Ole-Rebel
 
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