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Hinduism and the Bible

PoetPhilosopher

Veteran Member
Thanks @Vouthon - it's just really confusing in the US right now. We have a new breed of Christians, who don't regard the classic church fathers except in some instances, and of a new belief system with Sola Scriptura, that they either think is an old belief system or in the case of Seventh Day Adventism, a new, correct one uncovered, and they mostly call themselves conservative although if you go back far enough... well that may not make sense either...
 

Vouthon

Dominus Deus tuus ignis consumens est
Staff member
Premium Member
Thanks @Vouthon - it's just really confusing in the US right now. We have a new breed of Christians, who don't regard the classic church fathers except in some instances, and of a new belief system with Sola Scriptura, that they either think is an old belief system or in the case of Seventh Day Adventism, a new, correct one uncovered, and they mostly call themselves conservative although if you go back far enough... well that may not make sense either...

The difficulty I've found with a belief in sola scriptura is that it can often give the exegete scope to read almost anything (including one's preconceived notions and prejudices) into the sacred text, thus amounting to logical incoherence - like finding references to Hindu religious practice in Middle-eastern Jewish-Hellenistic texts from the Second Temple era, which I must admit is a new one even for me :D

Nostra Aetate (1965), the Second Vatican Council's Declaration on the Relation of the Church with Non-Christian Religions, is the only magisterial text issued by the modern Catholic Church which discusses Hinduism in any great depth. Again, as with the ancient Patristic references, it refers to the faith tradition positively:


https://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_decl_19651028_nostra-
aetate_en.html



DECLARATION ON
THE RELATION OF THE CHURCH TO NON-CHRISTIAN RELIGIONS

NOSTRA AETATE

PROCLAIMED BY HIS HOLINESS
POPE PAUL VI

ON OCTOBER 28, 1965

Men expect from the various religions answers to the unsolved riddles of the human condition, which today, even as in former times, deeply stir the hearts of men: What is man? What is the meaning, the aim of our life? What is moral good, what is sin? Whence suffering and what purpose does it serve? Which is the road to true happiness? What are death, judgment and retribution after death? What, finally, is that ultimate inexpressible mystery which encompasses our existence: whence do we come, and where are we going?

2. From ancient times down to the present, there is found among various peoples a certain perception of that hidden power which hovers over the course of things and over the events of human history; at times some indeed have come to the recognition of a Supreme Being, or even of a Father. This perception and recognition penetrates their lives with a profound religious sense.

Religions, however, that are bound up with an advanced culture have struggled to answer the same questions by means of more refined concepts and a more developed language.

Thus in Hinduism, men contemplate the divine mystery and express it through an inexhaustible abundance of myths and through searching philosophical inquiry. They seek freedom from the anguish of our human condition either through ascetical practices or profound meditation or a flight to God with love and trust. Again, Buddhism, in its various forms, realizes the radical insufficiency of this changeable world; it teaches a way by which men, in a devout and confident spirit, may be able either to acquire the state of perfect liberation, or attain, by their own efforts or through higher help, supreme illumination.

Likewise, other religions found everywhere try to counter the restlessness of the human heart, each in its own manner, by proposing "ways," comprising teachings, rules of life, and sacred rites. The Catholic Church rejects nothing that is true and holy in these religions. She regards with sincere reverence those ways of conduct and of life, those precepts and teachings which, though differing in many aspects from the ones she holds and sets forth, nonetheless often reflect a ray of that Truth which enlightens all men.

The Church, therefore, exhorts her sons, that through dialogue and collaboration with the followers of other religions, carried out with prudence and love and in witness to the Christian faith and life, they recognize, preserve and promote the good things, spiritual and moral, as well as the socio-cultural values found among these men.



Pope St. John Paul II's 1998 encyclical Fides et Ratio, also discussed Indian Vedantic thought sympathetically:


Fides et Ratio (14 September 1998) | John Paul II


"In both East and West, we may trace a journey which has led humanity down the centuries to meet and engage truth more and more deeply. It is a journey which has unfolded—as it must—within the horizon of personal self-consciousness: the more human beings know reality and the world, the more they know themselves in their uniqueness, with the question of the meaning of things and of their very existence becoming ever more pressing. This is why all that is the object of our knowledge becomes a part of our life. The admonition Know yourself was carved on the temple portal at Delphi, as testimony to a basic truth to be adopted as a minimal norm by those who seek to set themselves apart from the rest of creation as “human beings”, that is as those who “know themselves”.

Moreover, a cursory glance at ancient history shows clearly how in different parts of the world, with their different cultures, there arise at the same time the fundamental questions which pervade life: Who am I? Where have I come from and where am I going? Why is there evil? What is there after this life? These are the questions which we find in the sacred writings of Israel, as also in the Veda and the Avesta; we find them in the writings of Confucius and Lao-Tze, and in the preaching of Tirthankara and Buddha; they appear in the poetry of Homer and in the tragedies of Euripides and Sophocles, as they do in the philosophical writings of Plato and Aristotle....

My thoughts turn immediately to the lands of the East, so rich in religious and philosophical traditions of great antiquity. Among these lands, India has a special place. A great spiritual impulse leads Indian thought to seek an experience which would liberate the spirit from the shackles of time and space and would therefore acquire absolute value. The dynamic of this quest for liberation provides the context for great metaphysical systems.
"


Again, no trace of an anti-Hindu mentality or sentiment - just respectful appreciation for the inherent wisdom and spiritual qualities of the said religious tradition among many others (even as it differs from Christianity), paired with an appeal for dialogue and peaceful relations.
 
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PoetPhilosopher

Veteran Member
For those keeping score, I very much like the approach of @Vouthon to this subject - it has reassured me that my experimental thoughts in this thread weren't correct. He seemed to use statements from church fathers etc. and since I don't dispute this source of evidence, I pretty much just have to nod my head in agreement. So we've passed this subject for me, though others may have quite a bit more to say on it. My future questions would just have to be things like, "Is the US going toward a revised form of Seventh Day Adventism?" and then maybe explain more about my upbringing and how it shaped me myself to initially be cautious of Hindu folk.
 

sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
That'd be simple enough. But then I get to the question of, "How do I liken or separate the Bible from the Christian God which may also be Brahman?"

And then my head hurts.
Yes. That will be difficult. I would recommend that you take time to immerse into and understand one system well first ( maybe Hinduism that you have adopted) before doing a comparison with the other. The question you asked can be answered, but they have to be your answers, and it's ok to take your time.
 

sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
There is nothing relating specifically to Hinduism / Hindus in the Hebrew Bible or New Testament, given that they are both Middle-eastern collections of sacred texts, just as there is nothing in the Vedas or the Upanishads about Abrahamic faiths and their practitioners.

So to begin with, we are speaking here about two distinct cultural-religious 'families' - both geographically and philosophically - that amount to separate spiritual traditions in origin, neither of which has anything directly to say about the other.

As such, it would be exegetically incorrect to read anything in the Bible as pertaining to Hindus. If Christians whom you've met do in fact hold anti-Hindu sentiments (and I'm very sorry to hear that), they can only do so on the basis of 'deductions' from scriptural precepts, which in their literal meaning have no applicability to Hinduism or Hindus.

With all that being said, some of the later Christian church fathers - during the founding generations of the Christian faith (circa. 100 - 500 A.D.) - did acquire information about Vedantic religious traditions, as recorded by Syriac Christian chroniclers such as Bardaisan (A.D. 154 - 222) who had the opportunity to encounter and learn from Indian gymnosophists and mystics. Bardaisan's account (recorded by Porphyry De abstin., iv, 17 and Stobaeus (Eccles., iii, 56, 141)) is the earliest direct contact between any kind of Christian and any kind of Indian religious thinkers that I'm aware of.

His estimation of them was extremely positive:


"For the polity of the Indians being distributed into many parts, there is one tribe among them of men divinely wise, whom the Greeks are accustomed to call Gymnosophists. But of these there are two sects, one of which the Bramins preside over, the Samanaeans the other.[10]

The race of the Bramins, however, receive divine wisdom of this kind by succession, in the same manner as the priesthood. But the Samanaeans are elected, and consist of those who wish to possess divine knowledge.

And the particulars respecting them are the following, as the Babylonian Bardaisan narrates, who lived in the times of our fathers, and was familiar with those Indians who, together with Damadamis, were sent to Caesar. All the Bramins originate from one stock; for all of them are derived from one father and one mother. But the Samanaeans are not the offspring of one family, being, as we have said, collected from every nation of Indians
."

— Porphyry De abstin., iv,

The 'Brahmins' are Hindus, the 'Samanaens' are the Sramanas (Buddhists or Jains).

St. Clement of Alexandria (c. 150 – c. 215) - himself one of the earliest mystical theologians in the history of the church - is the next church father I've found with anything at all to say about Hindus and (again) he gave them a sympathetic treatment, portrarying their religious tradition as part of the "divinely inspired philosophy" that the Logos had implanted via semina verbi (seeds) throughout the world:


CHURCH FATHERS: The Stromata (Clement of Alexandria)


"The way of truth is one. But into it, as into a perennial river, streams flow from all sides...

Should it be said that the Greeks discovered philosophy by human wisdom, I reply, that I find the Scriptures declare all wisdom to be a divine gift...

Thus philosophy, a thing of the highest utility, flourished in antiquity among the barbarians, shedding its light over the nations. And afterwards it came to Greece. First in its ranks were the prophets of the Egyptians; and the Chaldeans among the Assyrians; and the Druids among the Gauls; and the Sramanas among the Bactrians; and the philosophers of the Celts; and the Magi of the Persians, who foretold the Saviour's birth, and came into the land of Judaea guided by a star. The Indian gymnosophists are also in the number, and the other barbarian philosophers. And of these there are two classes, some of them called Sramanas, and others Brahmins
"



St. Clement refers to the Buddha in a similar fashion:


"...εἰσὶ δὲ τῶν Ἰνδῶν οἱ τοῖς Βούττα πειθόμενοι παραγγέλμασιν. ὃν δι’ ὑπερβολὴν σεμνότητος ὡς θεὸν τετιμήκασι.

Among the Indians are those philosophers also who follow the precepts of Buddha, whom they honour as a god on account of his extraordinary sanctity..."

— Clement of Alexandria, Stromata (Miscellanies), Book I, Chapter XV​



Another fourth century patristic text - from circa A.D. 350 - called the Recognitions refers to Indian priests (Brahmins) in a positive light:



CHURCH FATHERS: Recognitions, Book IX (Clement of Rome)

Chapter 20. Brahmans.

There are likewise among the Bactrians, in the Indian countries, immense multitudes of Brahmans, who also themselves, from the tradition of their ancestors, and peaceful customs and laws, neither commit murder nor adultery, nor worship idols, nor have the practice of eating animal food, are never drunk, never do anything maliciously, but always fear God. And these things indeed they do...nor have malign stars compelled the Brahmans to do any evil.

As you can see, the author praises the Hindu Brahmins and the "tradition of their ancestors" for its pacifism, high moral standards, vegetarianism and reverence for the divine. The text even claims that Hindus do not 'worship idols' (i.e. perhaps because of the concept of Brahman / Atman, courtesy of which there is one Self behind the manifold diversity of deities).

All of these early Christian references to "Hindus" or "Buddhists" are largely positive appraisals. I can find none that are negative in tone - at least that I know of (and trust me, I've read a lot of Patristic literature), or which designate followers of either religion as "idol-worshippers" or reject the potential wisdom they have to offer.

Indeed, in the early middle ages so popular did the biographical accounts of the Buddha's lifestory become in Christian circles - that some fathers recast him as a Christian saint (who was venerated as such right up to modernity):

How the Buddha became a popular Christian saint
You should write a book. I will buy it. So will others.
 

Sirona

Hindu Wannabe
Some teachers of Hindu background mention Jesus when adressing to Western audiences, probably not without opportunistic interests. Among them are Vishwananda and Yogananda. I watched a video of Vishwananda being asked by a former Christian how Krishna can encourage Arjuna to fight when he arguably embodied non-violence in the Bible being Jesus. Vishwananda replied do you want a god who turns the other cheek or a god who fights back.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
I suppose a person seeking truth would have to ditch the multiple god concept.
Why? How is it possible that any of us somehow knows with certainty that there's only one god?

IOW, beliefs are "beliefs"-- not necessarily "facts".
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
In my semi-humble opinion, I tend to believe all religions attempt to understand God(s) and how we should therefore act accordingly, because there's so little evidence to go by there so much room for different takes. Thus, personally I prefer the "Maybe..." approach versus the "I know..." approach-- but that's little old skeptical me.
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Reminds me of an experience of a friend of mine who studied Hinduism in India but was a Christian himself. At one time he was in a house owned by a Hindu family but saw a picture of Jesus on a wall. Noting his apparent confusion, the husband asked what was the questioning look for? My friend said that he wondered why such a picture was there, and the owner replied that his household felt that Jesus was one of the manifestations of Brahma.

That shows to me how God permeates our minds, without us knowing the full ramifications of what we believe.

Regards Tony
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
That'd be simple enough. But then I get to the question of, "How do I liken or separate the Bible from the Christian God which may also be Brahman?"

And then my head hurts.

That would be because the One God is known by many Names and seen in many forms.

Enjoy the Rainbow given by God.

Regards Tony
 

halbhh

The wonder and awe of "all things".
This may be a hard one. So my question. Does accepting the Bible's teachings lead one to some very anti-Hindu perspectives on account the Bible seems to be against polytheism and idol worship?

Exodus 20:3-5
Exodus 20:4-6

Now my last sentence is of course flexible statements. Some might argue Christianity has multiple gods, and that it's of course not so black and white that Hindu people worship idols, and say that is what the Bible meant, and that Hindu people just use them in practice. But do you expect that to always be taken into account?

But looking at the overall picture, if one wishes to put themselves at a point firmly within the Hindu faith, should they accept the Bible because doing so helps others accept them, or should they take a very cautious approach because this very book could cause some pretty anti-Hindu views, even if it's arguable whether they are perfectly spelled out?

And to further make the connection that the Bible could cause anti-Hindu perspectives, I will put it like this... I'd say most people of the Abrahamic faith love their God. Yet according to the Bible, God hates other gods and graven images. When one loves another, they tend to dislike the obstacles in their loved one's path most of the time.

I'm not saying I firmly believe everything I have written here. Not real firmly. But I don't want to write more that will soften my thoughts, without first hearing some perspectives.
Our scripture says people are not held responsible for what they don't understand or know in the afterlife judgement.

The Lord is fair --

1 You, therefore, have no excuse, you who pass judgment on someone else, for at whatever point you judge another, you are condemning yourself, because you who pass judgment do the same things.

2 Now we know that God’s judgment against those who do such things is based on truth. 3 So when you, a mere human being, pass judgment on them and yet do the same things, do you think you will escape God’s judgment? 4Or do you show contempt for the riches of his kindness, forbearance and patience, not realizing that God’s kindness is intended to lead you to repentance? 5But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God’s wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed.

6God “will repay each person according to what they have done.”

7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. 8But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. 9There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; 10but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. 11For God does not show favoritism.

12All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. 13For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. 14(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.) 16This will take place on the day when God judges people’s secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares."

Romans 2 NIV

-------------

As you can see, practically no one that was raised Hindu will be held guilty for being Hindu. Rather, God will judge fairly, impartially, according to the good works and conscience of the person. Yet we do learn it's very hard to do the best works without faith in Christ, works such as treating those that act against us well, with love. Such usually is only possible with faith in Christ.

But not one Hindu will be judged for such things as rejecting things they never learned about fully or well. (Romans 4:15, 5:13 and more)
 
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Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
Reminds me of an experience of a friend of mine who studied Hinduism in India but was a Christian himself. At one time he was in a house owned by a Hindu family but saw a picture of Jesus on a wall. Noting his apparent confusion, the husband asked what was the questioning look for? My friend said that he wondered why such a picture was there, and the owner replied that his household felt that Jesus was one of the manifestations of Brahma.
It would be more shocking to have a Ganesha murthi at the door of a Christian home. But you are highly unlikely to see that. The liberal Hindus will have a picture of Jesus, Buddha, etc. up. yes. But it's not that common. Most likely it was a gift fro some proselytiser of history, and Hindus don't like to insult their guests.
 

Vouthon

Dominus Deus tuus ignis consumens est
Staff member
Premium Member
You should write a book. I will buy it. So will others.

Most likely, I would.

Nice to know I have an audience :D

Many thanks for the kind sentiments, perhaps I shall at some point (when my worklife is less frenetic) get a chance to write a book on that kind of topic.

Another Hindu patristic reference, this one is directly from the Syriac father Bardaisan (154 -222 CE) himself, namely The Book of the Laws of Various Countries (which is sadly the only one of his voluminous patristic texts to have survived antiquity):


CHURCH FATHERS: The Laws of Various Countries (Bardesanes)


Laws of the Brahmans who are in India. — Again, among the Hindus, the Brahmans, of whom there are many thousands and tens of thousands, have a law forbidding to kill at all, or to pay reverence to idols, or to commit impurity, or to eat flesh, or to drink wine; and among these people not one of these things ever takes place. Thousands of years, too, have elapsed, during which these men, lo! Have been governed by this law which they made for themselves.


This account was reiterated by Julius Africanus, Eusebius, St. Jerome, and St. Epiphanius (all of whom were enthusiasts for Bardaisan's writings and have preserved some of his lost works in quotation, including some of his other references to Indian religions). It was a very popular book among many later Fathers, because of its arguments against fatalism, astral determinism and in favour of free-will.

Eusebius of Caesarea (c. 260–339), the early church's most important historian, writes of Bardaisan (H. E. 4.30):


...a certain Bardesanes, a most able man and a most skillful disputant in the Syriac tongue, having composed dialogues...committed them to writing in his own language, together with many other works. His pupils, of whom he had very many (for he was a powerful defender of the faith), translated these productions from the Syriac into Greek. Among them there is also his most able dialogue On Fate, addressed to Antoninus, and other works which they say he wrote on occasion of the persecution which arose at that time...
 
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CG Didymus

Veteran Member
The Christian Bible is largely irrelevant to the vast majority of Hindus. The only reason it has any relevance at all is because of Christian missionaries proselytising. So all this is largely moot.

When I hear 'bible', I like to say ... "Hmmm ... never heard of it."
The Bible? You know it. It's that big black book that Christians hit people over the head with.

Actually, like you always say, "different paradigms". But, as we all know, it's mainly Christians, not Jews, that are pushing their views of what they think the Bible teaches. And then is mostly the conservative/evangelical/fundy Christians that are saying that all people are sinners and were born in sin and need to get saved. If not God will send them to hell. Like we know, even other Abrahamics distance themselves from such extreme beliefs. But what can people in the other religions do? How does a person argue with people that their way is the only way? Maybe your response is right on... "The Bible? Never heard of it."
 

SomeRandom

Still learning to be wise
Staff member
Premium Member
The Bible? You know it. It's that big black book that Christians hit people over the head with.

Actually, like you always say, "different paradigms". But, as we all know, it's mainly Christians, not Jews, that are pushing their views of what they think the Bible teaches. And then is mostly the conservative/evangelical/fundy Christians that are saying that all people are sinners and were born in sin and need to get saved. If not God will send them to hell. Like we know, even other Abrahamics distance themselves from such extreme beliefs. But what can people in the other religions do? How does a person argue with people that their way is the only way? Maybe your response is right on... "The Bible? Never heard of it."
I understand that there is usually a compunction to convert out of perhaps fear of hell for one’s loved ones. A sense of responsibility for others.
That said I much prefer the liberal “live and let live” Christians to that of preachers.
A few of my “aunties” are Church of God Christians. Sure we say grace before meals and sometimes I will get an occasional concerned prayer if something bad is going on in my life.
But weirdly I’m more likely to get into a (drunken) theological argument with my solitary atheist uncle than with his Christian wife. Who would be more concerned with how hungry I may be at any given time.
Sometimes leading by example is far more powerful than merely “preaching the good word.”
 

Vinidra

Jai Mata Di!
The Christian Bible is largely irrelevant to the vast majority of Hindus. The only reason it has any relevance at all is because of Christian missionaries proselytising. So all this is largely moot.

When I hear 'bible', I like to say ... "Hmmm ... never heard of it."

This is my position as well. If you're quoting scripture at me, unless it comes from the Devi Gita or the Chandi Path, it has no bearing on my life whatsoever.
 

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
The Bible? You know it. It's that big black book that Christians hit people over the head with.

Actually, like you always say, "different paradigms". But, as we all know, it's mainly Christians, not Jews, that are pushing their views of what they think the Bible teaches. And then is mostly the conservative/evangelical/fundy Christians that are saying that all people are sinners and were born in sin and need to get saved. If not God will send them to hell. Like we know, even other Abrahamics distance themselves from such extreme beliefs. But what can people in the other religions do? How does a person argue with people that their way is the only way? Maybe your response is right on... "The Bible? Never heard of it."

I've learned to totally ignore it. Responding just triggers angry rants. Not my kind of 'religion'.
How are you?
 
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