Jesus Said "It Is Finished"

Aupmanyav said:

Right. Jesus finished the debt. We are not in sin any more. Nice man. It was such a burden, they could hardly breathe. Jesus' Story and that of our sin is finished. So what now? Does he want a pay-back?

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No, not pay back, but acceptance of the gift of His payment for your sins.
You are accountable for your sins until you trust Jesus and place your faith in Him as your Savior. Then His finished work of paying for your sins on the cross is applied to you personally.

Nova2216 said:

No need to apologize.

I am a member of the church of Christ. (Rom.16:16)

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Great to have company here. Welcome!

Nova2216 said:

So the Lord tells a parable to the apostles (Luke 16:19-31). He has the Holy Spirit help them remember the parable according to (Jn 14:26). They record this parable in the NT. The Lord went through all this trouble to get this recorded and you call it ridiculous.

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No, I did not say that at all....I said that the interpretation that suggests that it is referring to any kind of “heaven or hell” afterlife is ridiculous.
If you look at the surrounding verses and chapters...they are all parables. Why pick this out and make it literal?

Jesus never taught that there was a “heaven or hell” scenario for anyone....he was Jewish and the ancient Jews had no belief in a spiritual afterlife. Their scripture never taught such a thing....so Jesus would never have promoted beliefs that were adopted later from Greek Platonism.

Is that b/c it opposes what you have been taught?

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No...it is what the Bible teaches. What have you been taught? Or more importantly who taught you what you believe?

Who am I to believe you or the Lord on (Luke 16:19-31)?

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You can believe whatever you wish.....I am telling you what the Jews believed and what Jesus taught, because he was Jewish. You need a Jewish understanding of Jesus’ words rather than the spin placed on them Christendom.....by those who became apostate in the early centuries and introduced all manner of pagan concepts, dressing them up as “Christianity”. It was foretold, you know.

May I ask what version of the bible you use?

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Online, I like to use a variety of translations and Bible Gateway fits that need. I can examine scripture from many different translations as well as checking out Strongs Concordance for help with the meaning of original language words.
You should try it......it will expose the KJV for the poor and outdated translation that it is.

For my own personal study I prefer the NWT published by Jehovah’s Witnesses. (for obvious reasons)

If you’d like to do a comparison of any Bible verses, just start a thread....you’ll be surprised, I’m sure.

InChrist said:

No, not pay back, but acceptance of the gift of His payment for your sins.
You are accountable for your sins until you trust Jesus and place your faith in Him as your Savior. Then His finished work of paying for your sins on the cross is applied to you personally.

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First placing your faith in Him as your Savior, is lingo invented by a certain belief system. It's true in a broad sense, but not as a formula on how to get saved.
Why didn't it happen with Saul? He placed his faith in Jesus after speaking directly with him. Why did he still need his sins washed away three days after doing so, if His finished work of paying for one's sins on the cross is applied to one personally when one initially places their faith in Him?

rrobs said:

How does that work with:

Eph 2:8,

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:​

It sure looks like this is saying that even the ability for us to believe is not within our own selves, that it itself is a gift of God.

Take care.

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John 1:12 Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God---

To those who received him and believed in his name God gave them the right/power/authority (in the greek) to become children of God. Got enabled them, not forced them, or left them without choice.

Thank you. You have brought some great points to support your thoughts.

Let me explain, and then put into practice, how I look at things.

I use the Word of God as a strainer, sifting out those things that don't conform to the word of God and keeping those thing that go through the test of the word of Life.

For and example... If I were to say, "Well, some people are good and we are good" and then say Phil 1: says 6 being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.

Since I am a good work, I am good so some people must be good.

However, when we take it to a strainer of God's word Jesus saying "No one is good but God" in Mark 10:18 it doesn't pass the strainer. So I would have to throw out the thought because it doesn't line up with the rest of scripture.

Nova2216 said:

Thanks for posting.

I do not support grace alone salvation.

The Ephesians were saved by grace according to (Eph. 2:1-10).

We would need to look at (Acts 19:1-6) to see just how they were saved by Gods grace.

They were actually baptized twice (in water).

1. Once under Johns baptism which was outdated.

2. Then they were baptized under the authority of (Mt 28:18-20) (Acts 2:38) (1Peter 3:21) (1Peter 1:22-23) (Mark 16:15,16).

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So... here is a thought that is supported by scripture. GREAT! But all we have done is seek out scriptures that support a position without checking if there is scripture that doesn't support the position.

Certainly you have the great point that a believer in Jesus Christ should be baptized and you gave scriptural support for that. Can't argue there... it is written. But for salvation?

Acts 10: 44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit came on all who heard the message. 45 The circumcised believers who had come with Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on Gentiles. 46For they heard them speaking in tongues and praising God. Then Peter said, 47 “Surely no one can stand in the way of their being baptized with water. They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have.”

Now, it is impossible to receive the Holy Spirit as the 120 did without first being saved. To have received the Holy Spirit without being born again would be like going into the Holy of Holies without the proper shedding of blood. They unregenerate spirit in man would leave at the presence of God's Holy Spirit... he would die.

It was after they were saved that they got baptized in obedience to scriptures. But they were saved because they received the Holy Spirit.

The man on the cross next to Jesus wasn't baptized. We have no record that most of the Apostles were never baptized. The Apostle Paul was baptized in the Holy Spirit but never baptized in water. A person who is on the death bed that gives his life to Jesus and then dies is not baptized but is saved.

Nova2216 said:

22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth (1Peter 1:22,23).

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So let's look at this:

21 Through him you believe in God, who raised him from the dead and glorified him, and so your faith and hope are in God.
22 Now that you have purified yourselves by obeying the truth so that you have sincere love for each other, love one another deeply, from the heart.
23 For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God.

Born again... not of water, but by the living and enduring word of God.

That is why I say, "you should be baptized in obedience if Jesus is your Lord but you do it because you are saved". It is an outward expression of what already happened inside of you.

KenS said:

Certainly you have the great point that a believer in Jesus Christ should be baptized and you gave scriptural support for that. Can't argue there... it is written. But for salvation?

Acts 10: 44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit came on all who heard the message. 45 The circumcised believers who had come with Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on Gentiles. 46For they heard them speaking in tongues and praising God. Then Peter said, 47 “Surely no one can stand in the way of their being baptized with water. They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have.”

Now, it is impossible to receive the Holy Spirit as the 120 did without first being saved. To have received the Holy Spirit without being born again would be like going into the Holy of Holies without the proper shedding of blood. They unregenerate spirit in man would leave at the presence of God's Holy Spirit... he would die.

It was after they were saved that they got baptized in obedience to scriptures. But they were saved because they received the Holy Spirit.

.

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Believe + Baptism (in water) = Saved (Mark 16:16)

Baptism Saves (1Peter 3:21)

Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. (Jn. 3:3-5)

There is one baptism (Eph. 4:5)

Are the verses above - TRUE or FALSE


On the baptism of the Holy Spirit, we need to talk.

1. The 120 did not receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit, only the 12 apostles.

Notice what (Acts 2:14) says -

14 But Peter, standing up with the eleven (not the 120)


2. A donkey spoke once by or through the Holy Spirit. (Num 22:28)

Was that donkey saved?

The miracle which happened to Cornelius and his family in (Acts 10) was done to "confirm" the Gentiles were to enter the church of Christ. Miracles were done to confirm the man and the message was approved of God and sent by God (Heb. 2:3,4) (Mark 16:20).

They were commanded to be baptized. (Acts 10:48) (Mt 28:18-20) (Mark 16:16)


Let's look at another example.

In (Acts 8:5,12,13) the Samaritans and Simon were baptized but they did not receive the Holy Spirit.

If we keep reading we will learn the apostles had to "lay hands" upon people to pass on the gifts to others (Acts 6:6) (Acts 8:18,19) (Acts 19:1-6).

6 Whom they set before the apostles: and when they had prayed, they laid their hands on them.


18 And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money, 19 Saying, Give me also this power, that on whomsoever I lay hands, he may receive the Holy Ghost.

Once the apostles died no one could pass on the gifts and therefore the gifts ceased around the end of the first century. (1Cor.13:8-10) (Eph. 4:11-13).

Nova2216 said:

Believe + Baptism (in water) = Saved (Mark 16:16)

Baptism Saves (1Peter 3:21)

Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. (Jn. 3:3-5)

There is one baptism (Eph. 4:5)

Are the verses above - TRUE or FALSE


On the baptism of the Holy Spirit, we need to talk.

1. The 120 did not receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit, only the 12 apostles.

Notice what (Acts 2:14) says -

14 But Peter, standing up with the eleven (not the 120)


2. A donkey spoke once by or through the Holy Spirit. (Num 22:28)

Was that donkey saved?

The miracle which happened to Cornelius and his family in (Acts 10) was done to "confirm" the Gentiles were to enter the church of Christ. Miracles were done to confirm the man and the message was approved of God and sent by God (Heb. 2:3,4) (Mark 16:20).

They were commanded to be baptized. (Acts 10:48) (Mt 28:18-20) (Mark 16:16)


Let's look at another example.

In (Acts 8:5,12,13) the Samaritans and Simon were baptized but they did not receive the Holy Spirit.

If we keep reading we will learn the apostles had to "lay hands" upon people to pass on the gifts to others (Acts 6:6) (Acts 8:18,19) (Acts 19:1-6).

6 Whom they set before the apostles: and when they had prayed, they laid their hands on them.


18 And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money, 19 Saying, Give me also this power, that on whomsoever I lay hands, he may receive the Holy Ghost.

Once the apostles died no one could pass on the gifts and therefore the gifts ceased around the end of the first century. (1Cor.13:8-10) (Eph. 4:11-13).

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Your reply did not answer my post. It ignored my statements. Some of your replies have nothing to do with what we are talking about.

I understand why you didn't answer or offer understanding. However....

Ephesians 5:26 to make her holy, cleansing her by the washing with water through the word,

John 15:3 You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you.

e.r.m. said:

First placing your faith in Him as your Savior, is lingo invented by a certain belief system. It's true in a broad sense, but not as a formula on how to get saved.
Why didn't it happen with Saul? He placed his faith in Jesus after speaking directly with him. Why did he still need his sins washed away three days after doing so, if His finished work of paying for one's sins on the cross is applied to one personally when one initially places their faith in Him?

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I don't think that is how the story went. Three days later he receive the Dunamis of God along with his sight, not salvation. When he said "Lord" when Jesus spoke to him, he was saved and never baptized in water. (at least not recorded)

KenS said:

Your reply did not answer my post. It ignored my statements. Some of your replies have nothing to do with what we are talking about.

I understand why you didn't answer or offer understanding. However....

Ephesians 5:26 to make her holy, cleansing her by the washing with water through the word,

John 15:3 You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you.

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Did I see the word WATER in (Eph 5:26)?

the Carpenter saved no one by dying

His salvation is in the parables

InChrist said:

No, not pay back, but acceptance of the gift of His payment for your sins.
You are accountable for your sins until you trust Jesus and place your faith in Him as your Savior. Then His finished work of paying for your sins on the cross is applied to you personally.

Click to expand...

That is a pay-back. He was a Jewish merchant.

e.r.m. said:

John 1:12 Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God -
To those who received him and believed in his name God gave them the right/power/authority (in the greek) to become children of God. Got enabled them, not forced them, or left them without choice.

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The line says 'Jesus gave them'. Of course, you can always say that your God and Jesus are not different.

Aupmanyav said:

The line says 'Jesus gave them'. Of course, you can always say that your God and Jesus are not different.

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You should read the passage again and note it says God gave to them ... that RECEIVE and BELIEVE.

KenS said:

I don't think that is how the story went. Three days later he receive the Dunamis of God along with his sight, not salvation. When he said "Lord" when Jesus spoke to him, he was saved and never baptized in water. (at least not recorded)

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He was saved before his sins were washed away? Acts 22:16.
Did you read the verse and did you read my post?

Nova2216 said:

Did I see the word WATER in (Eph 5:26)?

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did you see 'OF THE WORD"? "Now you are clean through my word" - "receive with meekness the engrafted word that can save your soul"

e.r.m. said:

He was saved before his sins were washed away? Acts 22:16.
Did you read the verse and did you read my post?

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NOW I got what you are saying.... thanks

Sorry for misunderstanding.

If God the stone owns the sin of the world within, meaning in science, seeing it is scientific quoting, Sin is the stone...entombed stone, was once burning light and went dark/cold and became stone.

The story said all of God's children are without sin.

Then next moment a male is demonstrating his life in attack by the spirits advised as SA TAN...and evil meanings such as devil.....claiming that Father in science was the Father of the devil.....stating science conjured/caused evil.

As the fact of it, if you told correct science theories instead of pretending as science does that science is innocent also. For isn't that what you infer, if I understand Jesus then I can have my science reaction of changing the God body held and not changed...and believe it.

As the ultimate liar titled reference the Destroyer?

For I think that self appraisal is real...seeing nuclear science knows that radiation mass fall out has been destroying our genetic life and giving it sacrifice....but the ownership in reaction resourcing...meaning I will invent a machine and change God the stone to own machine.

So first the machine takes our holy life water to own cooling manifestation.

Then doing the nuclear reaction they take our holy water out of natural order to cool the fission...so then ground attack occurs, so once again our holy life water is taken...what is said to be our life blood and given to the ground.

Liar scientists, always were just liars.

Jesus as the story said Temple trans MUTATION, why the plague was associated to the references in the bible as an inheritance for changing Gods holy Noble gases in order of their presence in reactions.

ONE God means owner of natural order.

Jesus did not remove our sins...for we never owned any in the first place liar scientists.

Jesus was attacked with and in sin for God fusion was a fission trans mutation occurrence in Temple science...and life was attacked and then it was stopped being attacked.

Sacrificed life was then saved and human sickness lived since that moment.

The word "hear" (akouo) can be translated obedience.

"Hupakoe" which derives from the word "hear" can be translated as obey.

"Hearing" and "obey" are the same word.


Please notice -

Kittel spends 54 pages in his Theological Dictionary of the New Testament (10 large volumes), discussing the subject of faith. He says some things I believe we need to know and remember.

In Volume VI, page 217, he has this to say about the subject: "According to Paul, the event of salvation history is actualized for the individual, not in pious experience, but in baptism (Galatians 3:27-29). Faith makes it his. Hence, faith is not the end of the way to God ... It is at the beginning. If faith is believing acceptance of that which the kerugma (preaching) proclaims, it is not thereby reduced to a confession of God's act, it recognizes the validity of this act for me. Faith is hupakoe.

The word hear (akouo) is found 437 times in the New Testament. Hupakoe, which derives from hear is used eighteen times (as you will note later) and is translated obedience. Hupakouo is used twenty-one times and is also translated obey.

Hearing and obedience are the same word.

Page #24

What Does It Mean to Hear?

What did kittel mean by that last statement? The word hupakoe is a very strong word for hear. That particular word is translated obey in the New Testament eighteen (18) times. "You have obeyed from the heart ..." (Romans 6:17). He spoke of those "who obey not the gospel ..." (II Thessalonians 1:8). "When Abraham was called to go out into a place which he should afterwards receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out ..." (Hebrews 11:8). This word means "to hear." But it has a connotation and an import that requires: 1. To hear audibly. The significance of this is that "it is loud enough to be heard, so as to be audible." 2. To hear understandingly. This alludes to "perception, the meaning of; know or grasp what is meant by." 3. To hear receptively. This involves a favorable reception, take in, admit; mentally approving; and acting upon it accordingly." 4. To hear retentively. This alludes to "the power or capacity for retaining; tenacious; holding to; continuing."

This gives you some idea of what the word hear involves as it is used in the New Testament. So, what is faith? It is to hear and understand what God has said; it is to receive what God has said; and it is to retain and continue to practice what God has instructed.


A Reply to a Denominational Preacher

KenS said:

did you see 'OF THE WORD"? "Now you are clean through my word" - "receive with meekness the engrafted word that can save your soul"

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You and I both know we must accept the word of God, but what does the word "WATER" refer to in (Eph.5:26)?

It's the word of God which brings the word "WATER" to us.

Nova2216 said:

You and I both know we must accept the word of God, but what does the word "WATER" refer to in (Eph.5:26)?

It's the word of God which brings the word "WATER" to us.

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The water of the word is the cleansing power that saves our soul - it is renewing the mind and thus cleansing our wrinkles - as Jesus said "Now ye are clean through my word" - not baptism of which Peter was never baptized.