Jesus Said "It Is Finished"

Nova2216 said:

You must prove your point above to me.

21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good. (1Thess.5:21).

I read in (Acts 9:9) three days after leaving Jesus on the road Paul is told how to remove his sins. So all the way to see Ananias Paul was still in his sins.


Can one be saved and still be in his sins?

Absolutely Not!!! (Isa.59:1,2)


(2Cor. 4:7) cannot be overlooked by Jesus.

7 But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.

This Treasure is the gospel

There are Heavenly Vessels and there are Earthly vessels.

Heavenly Vessels = God / Christ The Son / Holy Spirit

Earthly Vessels = Men

God has ordained that men teach men (2Tim. 2:2) (Mark 16:15,16) (Mt. 28:18-20).

B/c of (2Cor.4:7) Jesus could not tell Paul what to do to be saved on the road. He sent Paul to an earthly vessel which could and would teach him how to be saved. Some three days later according to (Acts 9:9).

9 And he was three days without sight, and neither did eat nor drink. (Acts 9:9)



Thanks

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I thought I did. (Acts 9:5) "Who art thou Lord?"

(9:5) "And the Lord said, I am Jesus"

(9:6) "And he trembling and astonished said, Lord what wilt thou have me to do?

Paul believed and was saved at this point. (John 3:15-18) Do I need to type it out?

Well, Paul was an exception to your rule as Paul got his teaching directly from the risen Jesus Christ. (Gal. 1:11-12)

Good-Ole-Rebel

blü 2 said:

I'm simply an onlooker. I was not born with inherited sin, and at the end of my life I'll cease to be.

But thank you for your frank answers. I respect your right to your faith.

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You're quite welcome.

Good-Ole-Rebel

Deeje said:

Agreed.....but we must define what it means to "believe".

James 2:19-22, 26....
"You believe that there is one God, do you? You are doing quite well. And yet the demons believe and shudder. 20 But do you care to know, O empty man, that faith without works is useless? 21 Was not Abraham our father declared righteous by works after he offered up Isaac his son on the altar? 22 You see that his faith was active along with his works and his faith was perfected by his works......Indeed, just as the body without spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead."

"Grace" is not a license to sin. But "believing" alone is not enough either. Actions are involved.
Is belief an action....? Or is it the works that are prompted by beliefs that put one in line for salvation?

e.g. when Jesus related the parable of the Good Samaritan, did the Samaritan just have faith in God and believe that God would take care of the injured man? Or did he take steps at his own expense to make sure that the man's immediate needs were cared for?

When James spoke of Abraham as a model in this regard, he said..."Was not Abraham our father declared righteous by works after he offered up Isaac his son on the altar? 22 You see that his faith was active along with his works and his faith was perfected by his works."

Believing is just the beginning....not the end of anything. Its the same thing as "having" a dog, compared to "exercising" your dog......you have to take it for a walk. ....not just letting it sleep at your feet all day.

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Then according to your explanation, Jesus death does not do any good, unless we believe and act. Then what is the difference between Jesus coming, and Prophets before Him? Before Jesus, also, If someone believed in God, and did good actions, he/she would have gone to heaven.

Nova2216 said:

In (John 19:30) Jesus said "it is finished".

Some claim this means man need not do anything to be saved, but then they go on to say you must believe.

Why do I need to believe if Jesus done it all on the cross?

(Jn.19:30) When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.


Please notice that belief is a work according to (Jn. 6:28,29)..

28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? 29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.


Friends, belief is a work. That means all those who teach one must believe to be saved is teaching they must do something in order to be saved.


That is not salvation by grace alone.



Thanks

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Then if it is not enough to just believe, what makes Christian Faith any special? Prophets before Jesus, also, said to people of their time, if they believe in God, and do good deeds, they will go to heaven. If Jesus said the same thing, what special thing did Jesus do?

Good-Ole-Rebel said:

I thought I did. (Acts 9:5) "Who art thou Lord?"

(9:5) "And the Lord said, I am Jesus"

(9:6) "And he trembling and astonished said, Lord what wilt thou have me to do?

Paul believed and was saved at this point. (John 3:15-18) Do I need to type it out?

Well, Paul was an exception to your rule as Paul got his teaching directly from the risen Jesus Christ. (Gal. 1:11-12)

Good-Ole-Rebel

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Show me where Paul's sins were forgiven in (Acts 9).

One saved has been forgiven of his sins.

I can show you where Paul's sins were not forgiven by the blood of Jesus until he was baptized in (Acts 22:16) some three days later and a long way from the road to Damascus. (Acts 9:9).

(Acts 22:16)

1. arise,
2. and be baptized,
3. and wash away thy sins,
4. calling on the name of the Lord.


Paul was fasting, repenting and blind for three days after meeting Jesus and you are telling me this is result of a man being saved?

Nova2216 said:

In (John 19:30) Jesus said "it is finished".

Some claim this means man need not do anything to be saved, but then they go on to say you must believe.

Why do I need to believe if Jesus done it all on the cross?

(Jn.19:30) When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.


Please notice that belief is a work according to (Jn. 6:28,29)..

28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? 29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.


Friends, belief is a work. That means all those who teach one must believe to be saved is teaching they must do something in order to be saved.


That is not salvation by grace alone.

Thanks

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It is never a good idea to base an entire doctrine on just one or two verses. As much as you rely on John 6:28-29 for your views on faith vs. works, there is actually tons more written on the subject. It would serve you well to consider all usages of the words "faith" and "work" in the scriptures before drawing a conclusion as to their relationship to each other.

God bless.

rrobs said:

It is never a good idea to base an entire doctrine on just one or two verses. As much as you rely on John 6:28-29 for your views on faith vs. works, there is actually tons more written on the subject. It would serve you well to consider all usages of the words "faith" and "work" in the scriptures before drawing a conclusion as to their relationship to each other.

God bless.

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The Lord only need to say something once for me to believe it and teach it to others. One scripture is just as powerful as many.

One way to tell if one is teaching a false doctrine is he contradicts other scripture(s). Truth will always harmonize with all other scripture.

Harmony is the friend of truth.

InvestigateTruth said:

Then if it is not enough to just believe, what makes Christian Faith any special? Prophets before Jesus, also, said to people of their time, if they believe in God, and do good deeds, they will go to heaven. If Jesus said the same thing, what special thing did Jesus do?

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Before the universe was formed the Lord decided to build a kingdom (or church) in which he would save mankind (Eph. 1:8-11 ; 3:8-11). The Lord in OT times told of this plan which was to come in the fullness of time (Jer. 31:31-34) (Isa. 2:1-5) (Gal. 4:4). He predestined a certain "kind" or a certain "group" which would be blessed.

The laws of this kingdom (or church) are spelled out in the NT. Those who willingly subject themselves to those laws and obey them can enter this kingdom (or church) (Jn 3:19-21) (1Jn 2:3-6) (Heb. 5:9).

The saved are located in this kingdom (or church) according to (Acts 2:36-47).

The problem is Satan has confused people on how one gets into this kingdom (or church).

Millions are teaching to enter this kingdom (or church) one must say the "sinners prayer" when it cannot be found in the NT after the death burial and ress. of Christ. That does not stop people from teaching something which cannot be found in the NT will of the Lord (1Peter 4:11). That is called a departure from the truth (1Tim. 4:1-4) (2Tim. 4:1-4). It is also called adding to the word of God (Deut. 4:2).

2 Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you. (Deut.4:2)


Thanks

First people say Jesus done it all upon the cross.

Then they say you must believe to be saved

Then in the next breathe they say you must say the sinners prayer to be saved.

Which is it?

Nova2216 said:

The Lord only need to say something once for me to believe it and teach it to others. One scripture is just as powerful as many.

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What exactly do you mean by works? Maybe I misunderstand what you are saying.

God bless.

blü 2 said:

I'm simply an onlooker. I was not born with inherited sin, and at the end of my life I'll cease to be.

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I am also an onlooker in this forum, as I never been here before. Fancy meeting you here.

I was not born with inherited sin. I do not believe anyone was because I do not believe in original sin.

As you know, I do not believe that anyone will cease to be at the end of this life, rather we will simply pass from this world into another world. I know you don't believe in the soul or the afterlife but I thought I would share this explanation since I don't think I ever posted it to you before. Where he refers to the spirit that thinks in man, he is referring w=to what I call the soul. The words spirit and soul mean the same thing in this context.

421. When the body is no longer able to perform the bodily functions in the natural world that correspond to the spirit’s thoughts and affections, which the spirit has from the spiritual world, man is said to die. This takes place when the respiration of the lungs and the beatings of the heart cease. But the man does not die; he is merely separated from the bodily part that was of use to him in the world, while the man himself continues to live. It is said that the man himself continues to live since man is not a man because of his body but because of his spirit, for it is the spirit that thinks in man, and thought with affection is what constitutes man. Evidently, then, the death of man is merely his passing from one world into another. And this is why in the Word in its internal sense “death” signifies resurrection and continuation of life. Heaven and Hell, p. 351

Nova2216 said:

In (John 19:30) Jesus said "it is finished".

Some claim this means man need not do anything to be saved, but then they go on to say you must believe.

Why do I need to believe if Jesus done it all on the cross?

(Jn.19:30) When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.


Please notice that belief is a work according to (Jn. 6:28,29)..

28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? 29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.


Friends, belief is a work. That means all those who teach one must believe to be saved is teaching they must do something in order to be saved.


That is not salvation by grace alone.



Thanks

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The work he was called to do was finished. The door for salvation was finished.

Thus, "By grace you are saved, through faith, not of yourselves, it is a gift from God. Not of works, lest any man should boast."

However, a saved person should bring a boat-load of good works.

Nova2216 said:

Show me where Paul's sins were forgiven in (Acts 9).

One saved has been forgiven of his sins.

I can show you where Paul's sins were not forgiven by the blood of Jesus until he was baptized in (Acts 22:16) some three days later and a long way from the road to Damascus. (Acts 9:9).

(Acts 22:16)

1. arise,
2. and be baptized,
3. and wash away thy sins,
4. calling on the name of the Lord.


Paul was fasting, repenting and blind for three days after meeting Jesus and you are telling me this is result of a man being saved?

Click to expand...

I already showed you in (Acts 9:5-6). And (John 3:15-18).

Water baptism is just a figure of that which has already taken place. It is important for the believer to be water baptized, but is not necessary for God to declare one righteous. It provides a good and clear conscience toward God. (1 Peter 3:20-21).

Good-Ole-Rebel

InvestigateTruth said:

Then according to your explanation, Jesus death does not do any good, unless we believe and act.

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According to Jesus’ explanation we have to believe and act.

It is he who is our judge and it is he who who tells us that he judges our actions. By that criteria he separates the “sheep” from the “goats”.
It will not matter how we judge ourselves because, we can have a very mistaken view of who we are and what we do. His words at the judgment are unexpected and devastating to the “many” standing before him, pleading their case....

Matthew 7:21-23....
“Not everyone saying to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the Kingdom of the heavens, but only the one doing the will of my Father who is in the heavens will. 22 Many will say to me in that day: ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and expel demons in your name, and perform many powerful works in your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them: ‘I never knew you! Get away from me, you workers of lawlessness!’”

Imagine being on the receiving end of that judgment!

Just acknowledging Jesus as ”Lord”, even if you have mistakenly believed that some ‘powerful works’ performed among your ranks were evidence of the holy spirit.....no! Jesus says that these had nothing to do with him. He tells them that he “NEVER knew” these ones....IOW he has NEVER recognised them as his own. So who is the god receiving their worship? There is only one other “god “ who wants it, and has gained it by deception.

Then what is the difference between Jesus coming, and Prophets before Him?

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Why did Jesus send his prophets to Israel in the first place?
It was to correct their disobedience to his commands. This nation were serial covenant breakers, but God kept them as his people even through the worst breaches of his Law, because he didn’t break his part in that covenant. He produced their Messiah, right on time, but by that time, Israel was beyond redemption....they were irreformable.

Jesus lamented.....Matthew 23:37-39...
“Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the killer of the prophets and stoner of those sent to her—how often I wanted to gather your children together the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings! But you did not want it. 38 Look! Your house is abandoned to you. 39 For I say to you, you will by no means see me from now until you say, ‘Blessed is the one who comes in Jehovah’s name!’”

Those who murdered the prophets who were sent to correct them, were simply doing it again by orchestrating the murder of Jesus on trumped up charges. For the Jewish nation that meant that God, having fulfilled his covenant, “abandoned” them....after leading the “lost sheep” out of that corrupt religious system.....
“Symʹe·on has related thoroughly how God for the first time turned his attention to the nations to take out of them a people for his name.” (Acts 15:14)

This is when God began inviting Gentiles to join the Jewish remnant who accepted Jesus as Messiah.

Before Jesus, also, If someone believed in God, and did good actions, he/she would have gone to heaven.

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Where in all of the Hebrew Scriptures did God ever tell the Jews that they would go to heaven? The ancient Jews never expected such a thing. Their belief (according to their scripture) was in a resurrection, (being physically raised from the dead) which became twisted by those who came later into belief in the immortality of the soul (adopted from Greek Platonism, not the Bible) There was never a teaching of spirit life after death in original Jewish belief. The Jews were never offered a “heaven or hell” scenario....they were only ever offered “life or death”. (Deuteronomy 30:19)

Before Jesus paid the redemption price for fallen humanity, there was no scriptural mention of going to heaven. Jesus opened up that possibility by referring to God’s Kingdom (that the Jews were expecting) as ruling from heaven over the earth. (Revelation 21:2-4)

Before Jesus, only Israel had the means to have their sins forgiven through sacrifices offered according to the Law. No one else was subject to that Law but them. Why were Gentiles not subject to those laws? Because all who died went to the same place.....the grave. Resurrection, for the majority, is a return to physical life when Jesus calls all the dead from their graves. (John 5:28-29) Both the ‘righteous and the unrighteous’ are raised to life under the rulership of the long awaited Kingdom.

God’s Kingdom will rule from heaven with a number of “chosen ones” taken to heaven to assist Jesus in bringing the blessings of that kingdom to redeemed mankind. (Revelation 20:6, Revelation 14:1-4) As appointed ‘kings and priests’ these heavenly rulers will usher in God’s rulership over this earth, returning humankind to the conditions that God gave them at the beginning. (Isaiah 55:11) Everlasting life in Paradise.

The Bible is one story from Genesis to Revelation. What we lost in the beginning is restored at the end.

That is how we understand the Bible’s message.

Deeje said:

Why did Jesus send his prophets to Israel in the first place?
.

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So, people who lived before Jesus, did not or will not go to heaven or hell? Are you saying heaven and hell started after Jesus?

Nova2216 said:

Before the universe was formed the Lord decided to build a kingdom (or church) in which he would save mankind (Eph. 1:8-11 ; 3:8-11).

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Ok, so, are you saying Jesus was the fulfillment of the kingdom prophecies? If so, what did Jesus kingdom offer that the prophets before Him did not offer?

InvestigateTruth said:

So, people who lived before Jesus, did not or will not go to heaven or hell?

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Since there was no "heaven or hell" scenario ever suggested in the Hebrew scriptures, from God's perspective, everyone who has died from Abel to the time of Christ's return would be in the same place..."sheol" (Hades) It is the common grave of mankind. Nothing at all to fear. Since the dead have paid 'sin's wages' (death) and Jesus' sacrifice has meant forgiveness of their sins, all in the grave will be brought back to life...some to enjoy the reward of their faithful course, and some who may not have lived a good life at all, but who are not incorrigibly wicked, will also be given a second chance.

Jesus sent the incorrigibly wicked ones to "gehenna", which is not "hell" either in the sense of eternal torture....but simply a death from which they will never awaken. Everlasting death is the opposite of everlasting life. God has no desire or purpose in tormenting anyone for the sake of it. Punishment is always administered with a view to an erring one realizing their sin, and coming to repentance and receiving forgiveness.

Are you saying heaven and hell started after Jesus?

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No, Jesus never mentioned a heaven or hell scenario either. There is no "hell" in the Hebrew scriptures.
You will find this concept throughout non-Christian religions as well as in later Judaism and Islam....but it is NOT a Bible teaching. Immortality of the soul is an adoption from pagan beliefs common in Greek mythology. Heaven and Hell is a product of that belief.

Resurrection has nothing to do with a spiritual part of man that floats off to one or the other destination.....

If we take Jesus' example when he resurrected his friend Lazarus.....

"Now a man named Lazʹa·rus was sick; he was from Bethʹa·ny, the village of Mary and her sister Martha. . . . . So his sisters sent a message to him, saying: “Lord, see! the one you have affection for is sick.” 4 But when Jesus heard it, he said: “This sickness is not meant to end in death, but is for the glory of God, so that the Son of God may be glorified through it.”

5 Now Jesus loved Martha and her sister and Lazʹa·rus. 6 However, when he heard that Lazʹa·rus was sick, he actually remained in the place where he was for two more days. . . .


11 After he said these things, he added: “Lazʹa·rus our friend has fallen asleep, but I am traveling there to awaken him.” 12 The disciples then said to him: “Lord, if he is sleeping, he will get well.” 13 Jesus, however, had spoken about his death. But they imagined he was speaking about taking rest in sleep. 14 Then Jesus said to them plainly: “Lazʹa·rus has died,15 and I rejoice for your sake that I was not there, so that you may believe. But let us go to him.”

. . . .many of the Jews had come to Martha and Mary to console them concerning their brother. 20 When Martha heard that Jesus was coming, she went to meet him; but Mary kept sitting at home. 21 Martha then said to Jesus: “Lord, if you had been here, my brother would not have died. 22 Yet even now I know that whatever you ask God for, God will give you.” 23 Jesus said to her: “Your brother will rise.” 24 Martha said to him: “I know he will rise in the resurrection on the last day.” 25 Jesus said to her: “I am the resurrection and the life. The one who exercises faith in me, even though he dies, will come to life; 26 and everyone who is living and exercises faith in me will never die at all. Do you believe this?”. . .

Then Jesus, after groaning again within himself, came to the tomb. It was, in fact, a cave, and a stone was lying against it. 39 Jesus said: “Take the stone away.” Martha, the sister of the deceased, said to him: “Lord, by now he must smell, for it has been four days.” 40 Jesus said to her: “Did I not tell you that if you would believe you would see the glory of God?” 41 So they took the stone away. Then Jesus raised his eyes heavenward and said: “Father, I thank you that you have heard me. 42 True, I knew that you always hear me; but I spoke on account of the crowd standing around, so that they may believe that you sent me.” 43 When he had said these things, he cried out with a loud voice: “Lazʹa·rus, come out!” 44 The man who had been dead came out with his feet and hands bound with wrappings, and his face was wrapped with a cloth. Jesus said to them: “Free him and let him go.” (John ch 11)

Jesus referred to Lazarus as "sleeping" even though he was dead. He asked Martha if she believed that the dead would rise and she expressed belief, not in an immortal soul that had gone to heaven, but in a "resurrection on the last day". It was a Jewish belief that God's Kingdom would rule for this "last day" to bring blessings to mankind and this included a resurrection of the dead.

That "day" of the Kingdom's rule is referred to in Revelation as 1000 years. Jesus said that God would choose from among mankind suitable rulers who would also act as priests in that Kingdom. (Revelation 14:1-4; Revelation 20:6) So all who died from the beginning went to the same place....the common grave of mankind.....which was the destiny chosen for them by the disobedience of their father Adam. Jesus, as "the last Adam", paid for their release from this bondage, incurred through no fault on their part.
But you will notice that there is more than one resurrection.....Revelation speaks of the "first resurrection" which is for those who will rule with Christ. The general resurrection of the dead takes place later, when the Kingdom has cleared away all wickedness. Then Jesus calls the dead from their graves. (John 5:28-29)

God is not unjust, nor does he have any interest in torturing anyone. He gives us the options (conduct that leads to either life or death) and hopes that of our own free will that we will choose life by obeying his reasonable commands.

That is the logical and wonderful message of hope for all mankind. Choose life by not trying to force God into a box created by man.....instead try to fit yourself into the box created by God.....only the righteous will.

Trailblazer said:

I am also an onlooker in this forum, as I never been here before. Fancy meeting you here.

I was not born with inherited sin. I do not believe anyone was because I do not believe in original sin.

As you know, I do not believe that anyone will cease to be at the end of this life, rather we will simply pass from this world into another world. I know you don't believe in the soul or the afterlife but I thought I would share this explanation since I don't think I ever posted it to you before. Where he refers to the spirit that thinks in man, he is referring w=to what I call the soul. The words spirit and soul mean the same thing in this context.

421. When the body is no longer able to perform the bodily functions in the natural world that correspond to the spirit’s thoughts and affections, which the spirit has from the spiritual world, man is said to die. This takes place when the respiration of the lungs and the beatings of the heart cease. But the man does not die; he is merely separated from the bodily part that was of use to him in the world, while the man himself continues to live. It is said that the man himself continues to live since man is not a man because of his body but because of his spirit, for it is the spirit that thinks in man, and thought with affection is what constitutes man. Evidently, then, the death of man is merely his passing from one world into another. And this is why in the Word in its internal sense “death” signifies resurrection and continuation of life. Heaven and Hell, p. 351

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Thanks for that clear statement. As you say, its worldview is completely different to mine, but it's good to consider such things.

rrobs said:

What exactly do you mean by works? Maybe I misunderstand what you are saying.

God bless.

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Thanks for asking.

The New Testament mentions at least four kinds of works: (1) works of the Law of Moses (Galatians 2:16; Romans 3:20); (2) works of the flesh (Galatians 5:19-21); (3) works of merit (Titus 3:4-7); and (4) works resulting from obedience of faith (James 2:14-24). This last category often is referred to as “works of God.” This phrase does not mean works performed by God; rather, the intent is “works required and approved by God” (Thayer, 1958, p. 248; cf. Jackson, 1997, 32:47). Consider the following example from Jesus’ statements in John 6:27-29:


Objections to God's Plan of Salvation Considered

by Bert Thompson, Ph.D.



Thanks

Good-Ole-Rebel said:

I already showed you in (Acts 9:5-6). And (John 3:15-18).

Water baptism is just a figure of that which has already taken place. It is important for the believer to be water baptized, but is not necessary for God to declare one righteous. It provides a good and clear conscience toward God. (1 Peter 20-21).

Good-Ole-Rebel

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(Acts 22:16) defines calling on the name of the Lord.

1. Arise
2. Be Baptized
3. Wash Away Your Sins
4. Calling on the name of the Lord

Just recognizing who Jesus is or calling out His name is not the new birth. (Mt.7:21-23). I find it interesting in (Jn 3:3-5) that water is mentioned there and we also see it mentioned in (Acts 22:16). Notice the word "washed" (1Cor.6:11) (Eph.5:26) (Titus 3:5) (Heb.10:22) (2Peter 2:22).

The blood of Christ washes away our sins when we obey the Lord in water baptism (Mark 16:15,16). Water baptism alone does not do anything except get one wet, but hearing the truth and believing truth and obeying truth in all the Lord says does save one according to (1Peter 1:22-23) (Rev. 1:5).

You have been taught that water baptism is a work man does after the point of salvation but the bible does not teach this. If it does show it to me and I will accept it (1Thess. 5:21). Prove your point.

If water baptism is not necessary why does the word of God say baptism doth now also saves us in (1Peter 3:21)?

Evidently before water baptism the person was not saved.


Thanks