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Does the study of philosophy ever lead to answers?

Samael_Khan

Goosebender
Douglas Adams and Terry Pratchett had eerily similar ideas about philosophers...
This was Pratchett talking about farmers from the point of view of philosophers..

Philosophers - "The answer to the ultimate question of life, the universe and everything?"

Deep Thought - "The answer to the ultimate question of life, the universe and everything is 42"

Philosophers - "What?"

Deep thought - "maybe you were asking the wrong question?"

Philosophy in a nutshell
 

Heyo

Veteran Member
That's not far from the truth, in my opinion. And I think its even more common today than it was in the past. At least in America. Why? Because in my opinion, the academic field has come to be dominated by hacks.

Several reasons for that. The one that really gets to me is this: Philosophy professors are so poorly paid these days that only two kinds of people are attracted to the job. Those who are extremely dedicated and who are thus willing to work for next to nothing. And those who are so incompetent, they can't get a job anywhere else. The latter appear to me more numerous than the former.

You read a few journals these days -- it's so often nauseating.

What gets me to the extreme about that is that professors -- both good and bad -- are being shamelessly exploited by their universities. They are the academic version of sweatshop labor.

When I was in school, most of my professors owned their own homes, at the least. I even recall getting into a conversation with one of them once about his stock portfolio. It was tougher than importing arctic ice to Texas to get a job in philosophy, but once you got a job, you did about as well as most Americans of the time. Hence, the field attracted more good philosophers 40 years ago than it seems to today.

Added to all of that, Heyo, is the fact American culture is a barren wasteland for philosophy. We have nothing like the rich philosophical tradition of so many European nations. In Norway, philosophy is apparently taught at the high school level. In America, you would for the most part find that only in the elite private high schools -- and most likely then, only the New England ones. So, Americans scarcely know what philosophy is, let alone see much value in it.

That's my guess, at least.
So we agree again. I thought you were going to advocate for the unconditional usefulness of philosophy. It's not. It's useful and gives answers when done right but it's also hard to do right.
I'm slightly optimistic, though. There are some who are not only good but also have some influence on the public at large. Pinker and Harris come to mind who can make a living outside the ivory tower. There are also some young people who started their career on YouTube while still in college. I see great potential in Stephen Woodford and Alex O'Connor. They are just out of school and already debate the likes of Frank Turek or Jordan Peterson.
 

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
PLEASE NOTE; This post is a continuation of post #34, which can be found here:
Does the study of philosophy ever lead to answers?


@Diedre,

I'm back like a tornado to a trailer park!

At last it has come time to delve into a true and actual example of a philosophical idea that has had a huge impact on the world. The idea I have in mind for the task is 280 years old. It's an invention of the Scottish philosopher, David Hume. And when it was first published in Book III of Hume's three volume work, A Treatise of Human Nature, it exploded in the skies above western thought like a super-nova it was almost wholly ignored.

Yeah, you might have guessed it, one of the most influential ideas in the history of western thought failed upon its publication to impress almost anyone. It was like that quiet, shy kid who, whenever you see him, always looks so lost and abandoned that he just makes you want to take his hand and gently lead him to the lost-and-found kiosk in order to turn him in.

Today, perhaps one out of every two people in the Western cultural sphere to one extent or another embraces Hume's idea. Most of those in the other half have in some form encountered it, but perhaps haven't understood it well enough to have adopted it. The idea has at least three names.

The name we'll use here is "the Guillotine".

The Guillotine gets its name not only from the fact that it separates something, but just as much from the fact that the separation is final and devastating. The idea did not even begin to be 'appreciated' until at least eight years after its original publication, but when people at last began to grasp the Guillotine's meaning and importance, many people found it profoundly disorienting. But why?

In essence, the Guillotine severed their morals from what they were in the habit of believing proved their morals were the right morals to have. It was a steel blade imposing itself between their morals and the justification for their morals, and it did so with a ruthless finality. To the people of the 1750s, the Guillotine seemed impossible to escape, impossible to defeat.

Even today, almost three centuries later, it is orders of magnitude more widely accepted than are the efforts to escape or defeat it.

As an idea, the Guillotine is deceptively simple. It hardly looks anything like the effect it has once it is properly understood. Put in it's simplest terms, "Is does not imply ought." Or, in one of the many ways it is stated today, "You cannot use a fact to prove a value."

"You cannot use a fact to prove a value." "All values are subjective." "There are no objective morals." "Morality is a matter of personal opinion or taste." "Your morals are just as subjective as mine, and vice versa." "There are no universal moral truths."

Those are just a handful of the dozens of ways the Guillotine is spoken of today -- most often by people who have never heard of David Hume. The other two names for the Guillotine are "the is-ought problem" and "Hume's Law".

Now, as a perhaps interesting thought-experiment, ask yourself -- on a day-to-day basis, which idea impacts me the most in shaping how I look at the world? The Guillotine? Or the Theory of Relativity?

To me, it's the Guillotine. I understand the Guillotine. I only barely understand Relativity. So how can something that I only barely understand have a greater impact on how I day-to-day see the world than something I do understand? Hands down, the Guillotine.

I hope all of that has been interesting, and also illustrates the kind of answers that philosophy arrives at. Every now and then you come across someone who both understands the Guillotine and does not accept it as true. But no one like that has ever come up with something accepted as true by anywhere nearly as many people as the Guillotine. There are actually people in this world who do not accept that the earth is a sphere. But that doesn't make them right.

In my opinion, someday the Guillotine will be escaped or defeated (In fact, it might already have been) -- but most likely only in part. Kind of like how Darwinian evolution was to some degree replaced by the synthesis of the 1930s. The core idea of evolution has endured. The Guillotine will most likely hang around in one form or another for a very long time.
 

Samael_Khan

Goosebender
PLEASE NOTE: This post is a continuation of post #31, which can be found here:
Does the study of philosophy ever lead to answers?



@Deirdre,


I'm back like a bad case of morning breath!

As you might recall, I said in my first post in this thread that philosophy comes up with answers, only they are not the sort of answers we expect to find -- and hence, we tend to think philosophy does not actually come up with answers. But that raises two questions.

First, what kind of answers do we expect to find? That's an easy question. Here's a famous philosophical question, "Does God exist?" That question has been around a long time, probably much longer than we have any record of it. Our first record of anyone in the west asking that question only dates back roughly 2,400 years -- but I'm sure some people were asking it long before then.

So what is the philosophical answer to "Does God exist"? Shouldn't there be one by now?

Well, if by "answer", you mean "yes" or "no", then we're out of luck. The question has never been settled in that sense, not even in over 2,000 years. So, if we only look that far, and no further, then we are going to say, philosophy does not lead to answers.

But there is another way a question can be answered other than in such a straight-forward way as to demand a "yes" or a "no". However, this second way of answering questions is harder to see, harder to catch on to.

Try thinking of it this way. Imagine a beautiful woman or a handsome man. Most people are deeply interested in how beautiful they are. "We all want something beautiful", as the man sings in Mr. Jones. But fewer people are deeply interested in their personalities, their values, their tastes, their interests, their ambitions and dreams.

The second way to answer questions, the way philosophy answers questions, does not deeply interest everyone. But it is the second way of answering questions that philosophy excels at. Truly excels at. Kind of like a beautiful woman or man who is even a more beautiful person inside that she or he is outside.

So what is that second way of answering questions?

To put it somewhat metaphorically, "Philosophy excels at discovering the logical foundations of ideas."

The answers it gives are along the lines of, 'Logically, this first idea assumes this second idea is true. If the second idea is not true, then the first idea cannot be true either." In other words, philosophy usually cannot answer the 'first idea', but it can usually answer the question of what must be true for the 'the first' idea to be true.

An analogy might be this: If you saw a baby, you could be certain that at some time in the past a sperm fertilized an egg. In more or less the same way, philosophers go around figuring out what ideas must be true for other ideas to be true.

Only they do that both backwards and forwards. They not only figure out what ideas had to come first (going backwards), but they also figure out what ideas must follow (going forwards).

And all of that figuring -- both going backwards and going forwards -- crucially depends on reasoning logically.

If you were ever to study philosophy and the gods save you if you ever do, you would find that it has produced over the past 2,600 years, tens of thousands of hard, definitive answers of that kind. At least tens of thousands. Most likely more. And some of them have rocked the world. Some of them have gone off like novas in the history of western culture. Some of them have 'changed everything'.

Does any of that make sense, my friend?

There's more to it than that (There is always 'more to it than that', isn't there?), but my aim is not to offer you a complete book on the subject, but just to get you started on it.

By the way, I lied to you when I said I would tell you in this post about a philosophical answer that has had more influence on you -- and most everyone you know -- than has had the Theory of Relativity. That's coming up not in this post like I promised, but in the next post.

Because this post is already long enough.



PLEASE NOTE: This post is continued (and concluded) in post #43, which can be found here:
Does the study of philosophy ever lead to answers?

If this is philosophy then I am engaging in it all the time! :eek:
It also sounds like you are discussion the subject of logic.
 

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
So we agree again. I thought you were going to advocate for the unconditional usefulness of philosophy. It's not. It's useful and gives answers when done right but it's also hard to do right.
I'm slightly optimistic, though. There are some who are not only good but also have some influence on the public at large. Pinker and Harris come to mind who can make a living outside the ivory tower. There are also some young people who started their career on YouTube while still in college. I see great potential in Stephen Woodford and Alex O'Connor. They are just out of school and already debate the likes of Frank Turek or Jordan Peterson.

Love both Pinker and Harris! I think Harris is wrong about somethings, but overall much under-appreciated. Have yet to discover Woodford or O'Connor. I'll look them up. Thanks for the tip!
 

Mock Turtle

Oh my, did I say that!
Premium Member
Love both Pinker and Harris! I think Harris is wrong about somethings, but overall much under-appreciated. Have yet to discover Woodford or O'Connor. I'll look them up. Thanks for the tip!

Well even if my religious (anti) stance is closer to Harris, I will agree that what I have read of his (The End of Faith), didn't lead me to wholehearted agreement with him, but almost all of Pinker that I have read I tend to agree with, and I also tend to place him as being more rational and less biased than Peterson. But both are supposed to be psychologists rather than philosophers - so one might forgive either for any misdemeanours. :oops:
 

Secret Chief

nirvana is samsara
This is about "Western analytic philosophy" of course, not all "philosophy."

And Peterson? Haha. The poster boy of the alt right. Sorry, I'll rephrase that: he's a psychologist.
 

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
I find that philosophical questions are best discussed over beer and pizza...

or late at night, under a star-lit sky...

Or late at night sitting tending a campfire...

I rarely remember the answers, and maybe not even the questions...

But man, I do remember the discussions...

There is absolutely no substitute for that kind of "philosophizing". You bring back a lot of fond memories. Thanks for that.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
I think there are more questions that get stirred up by philosophy, than answers. But might it be that our answers, are the only ones that matter to us, because of that inner pull to to see the world through our own skewed lens?
Religion becomes philosophical in nature whereas it teaches morality. And basically each of us will determine which philosophical approach we will adhere to.
 

PureX

Veteran Member
Not answers, but possibilities.

We humans don't get answers, we only get possibilities from which to choose.
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
PLEASE NOTE: This post is a continuation of post #5, which can be found here:

Does the study of philosophy ever lead to answers?

I'm back! And twice as handsome as before!

@Deidre, thank you for your patience with me.

You know, looking over this thread, I can see I have more work cut out for me than I was bargaining for. That's because so many good folks are using the word "philosophy" in a way that says to me I might confuse them if I do not first and upfront mention what I meant by the word in my earlier post. No worries. The distinction is easy to grasp.

What most people mean by "philosophy" is a kind of freewheeling, 'anything-goes' kind of thinking that is quite often beautifully creative and imaginative. "Why can't ants walk backwards?" "Life is a bowl of cherries." "If it quacks like a duck...." To most people those are easily seen to be "philosophical" questions and statements. Notice how much they involve matters of opinion. How much they are wrapped in subjectivity. Beyond being subjective, we might ask whether people are wrong to speak of philosophy in those ways?

Of course not! That's a crazy question! A crazy question! Why did you even ask it? Don't you know folks have a right to think of philosophy any way they want to!

Um... wait a moment... eh... um... It was me that asked that question. Uh... sorry. At my age, you get confused about these things.

At any rate, there is another kind of philosophy. This second kind is much, much more disciplined than the first kind. The heart, soul, and core of it is the application of strictly logical reasoning to the analysis of various and sundry issues. Emphasis on logic. Double-emphasis on logic. This second kind of philosophy depends so much on logic that without logic, everything else it is falls apart. Logic is the glue holding all of its pieces together. And in practice, that makes it a whole different ballgame from the first kind.

Now, when I said that philosophy answers questions, I was referring only to this second kind of philosophy. And when I said that the kinds of answers it comes up with sometimes have a huge influence on western culture, I was again referring only to this second kind of philosophy.

I hope we're on the same page now.

In my next post, I am going to tell you about one of the philosophical answers that have had a greater impact on the world than the Theory of Relativity. And I am going to do my very best to make it easy to understand and entertaining.



NOTE: This post is continued in post #34, which can be found here:
Does the study of philosophy ever lead to answers?

My view is that even the second type of philosophy is best when it poses questions and points out flaws in logic. I don't think it ever actually gets answers. but that isn't its job.
 
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