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Jesus’ Willed Spiritual Death Catholic Anathema, Compared To State Physical Death Capital Punishment

It is within Jesus' Will for His Church to use Capital Punishment to Protect His Church.

  • True

    Votes: 1 33.3%
  • False

    Votes: 1 33.3%
  • Jesus Wills His Church to use Spiritual Death Catholic Anathema only, to Protect His Church

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • It is not against Jesus Will for the State to use Capital Punishment to Protect society

    Votes: 2 66.7%

  • Total voters
    3

Steven Merten

Active Member
Matthew 18:5
"Whoever welcomes one such child for my sake welcomes me. On the other hand, it would be better for anyone who leads astray one of these little ones who believes in me, to be drown by a millstone around his neck, in the depths of the sea. What terrible things will come on the world through scandal! It is inevitable that scandal should occur. Nonetheless, woe to that man through whom scandal comes! If your hand or foot is your undoing, cut it off and throw it from you! Better to enter life maimed or crippled than be thrown with two hands or feet into endless fire. If your eye is your downfall, gouge it out and cast it from you! Better to enter life with one eye than be thrown with both into fiery Gehenna.

Jesus tells us that it would be better for His Followers to tie a millstone around the neck of someone and cast them into the sea, rather than let such an individual lead even the least of Jesus’ Followers into hell. Jesus’ Followers drowning someone, would be similar to State capital punishment.

From Jesus telling His Apostles about tying a millstone around a false leader’s neck and drowning them, Jesus goes on to Command His Apostles to use, Spiritual death Catholic Church Anathema, to protect His Bride, the Church, from having Her whole Body pulled into hell. Jesus Commands His Church to cut off from the body of the Church, which is Spiritual death Catholic Church Anathema, any individual member of the Church, who tries to pull the Body of His Church into hell. Jesus Commands Catholic Anathema, in order to have His Apostles protect His Bride the Church from having evildoers pull the whole body of His Church into hell, through their evil conduct.

In scriptures, Jesus is described as having a sharp two edged sword coming out of His mouth. Jesus’ lips proclaiming sinners bound to their sins, which puts sinners to Spiritual death, is the sword of Christ’s mouth. Jesus blows the Holy Spirit upon His Apostles and swears to them, that anyone whom, from earth, they call upon Him to bind to sin, He will do so in heaven. Thus, Catholic Apostolic Successors, calling upon Jesus to bind sinners to sin, in Catholic Anathema, cuts off sinners from the life of the body of Christ’s Church, and Anathematized sinners are put to Spiritual death.

John 20:20
At the sight of the Lord the disciples rejoiced. "Peace be with you," he said again. "As the Father has sent me, so I send you." Then he breathed on them and said: "Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive men's sins, they are forgiven them; if you hold them bound, they are held bound."

Revelation 1:16
A sharp, two-edged sword came out of his mouth, and his face shone like the sun at its brightest. When I caught sight of him I fell down at his feet as though dead, he touched me with his right hand and said: "There is nothing to fear. I am the First and the Last and the One who lives. Once I was dead but now I live-- forever and ever. I hold the keys of death and the nether world."

Isaiah 11:14 The Rule of Immanuel
He shall strike the ruthless with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips he shall slay the wicked.
Matthew 16:13
Jesus replied, "Blest are you, Simon son of John! No mere man has revealed this to you, but my heavenly Father. I for my part declare to you, you are 'Rock,' and on this rock I will build my church, and the jaws of death shall not prevail against it. I will entrust to you the keys of the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you declare bound on earth shall be bound in heaven; whatever you declare loosed on earth shall be loosed in heaven."

ANATHEMA

In passing this sentence, the pontiff is vested in amice, stole, and a violet cope, wearing his mitre, and assisted by twelve priests clad in their surplices and holding lighted candles. He takes his seat in front of the altar or in some other suitable place, amid pronounces the formula of anathema which ends with these words: Wherefore in the name of God the All-powerful, Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, of the Blessed Peter, Prince of the Apostles, and of all the saints, in virtue of the power which has been given us of binding and loosing in Heaven and on earth, we deprive N-- himself and all his accomplices and all his abettors of the Communion of the Body and Blood of our Lord, we separate him from the society of all Christians, we exclude him from the bosom of our Holy Mother the Church in Heaven and on earth, we declare him excommunicated and anathematized and we judge him condemned to eternal fire with Satan and his angels and all the reprobate, so long as he will not burst the fetters of the demon, do penance and satisfy the Church; we deliver him to Satan to mortify his body, that his soul may be saved on the day of judgment."...

...He who dares to despise our decision, let him be stricken with anathema maranatha, i.e. may he be damned at the coming of the Lord, may he have his place with Judas Iscariot, he and his companions.

Quoted from: New Advent Catholic Encyclopedia - Anathema

 
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metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
This is not a debate forum, so this post is a one-and-out.

Jesus said "Let he whom is without sin cast the first stone". Recent popes, including Pope Francis, have spoken out against capital punishment in today's world whereas prisons and jails are a much more humane and Christ-like alternative. The revised Catechism forbids it, as does the USCCB.

Therefore, I go with the Church on this and not what secular politicians may say or what previous decisions were made.
 

Steven Merten

Active Member
This is not a debate forum, so this post is a one-and-out.

Jesus said "Let he whom is without sin cast the first stone". Recent popes, including Pope Francis, have spoken out against capital punishment in today's world whereas prisons and jails are a much more humane and Christ-like alternative. The revised Catechism forbids it, as does the USCCB.

Therefore, I go with the Church on this and not what secular politicians may say or what previous decisions were made.


Hello metis,

Thank you for coming here to discuss Jesus’ Will on when to kill in physical death kills, and Jesus' Will on when to kill in Spiritual death, Catholic Anathema kills.

I had multiple Catholic Priests tell me that 'Catholic Just War Theory' was accepted Catholic teaching, yet, the Priests taught that 'Catholic 'Just War Theory' opposes Jesus' Will'. So Catholic teaching can be confusing to me, when it comes to Catholic Church kills.

So let's start with a basic kill. When a Pope wields his Swiss Guard sniper and kills a terrorist running at him with a knife, do you think this would be Jesus' Will on when a Pope should, protectively, kill? The terrorist has not ‘thrown the first stone’, because he has a knife, up against the Pope’s Swiss Guard sniper’s, faster, bullet.

On another thread, there was a Pacifist and he believed it was against Jesus Will for the Pope to protect himself by killing an attacking terrorist. So do you believe that a Pope killing a terrorist with his Swiss Guard sniper, to protect himself, is 'humane and Christ-like', or, do you believe that a Pope killing a terrorist with his Swiss Guard sniper, is just as evil, hateful and sinful, as America protecting her people with Capital Punishment?
 
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Steven Merten

Active Member
Spiritual death from Catholic Anathema (Jesus’ lips binding sinners to their sins) is infinitely more deadly than State Capital Punishment. One person Spiritually struck down by Catholic Anathema, loses more life (Eternal Life) than the combined loss of years of physical life cut short from all the Capital Punishments, and war, in human history. Jesus Commands His Church to use Spiritual death Anathema to protect His Bride, the Church on earth.

Common sense would tell us that Jesus also wills His Church, from the Pope on down, to use physical death kills to protect His Bride, the Church, the Catholic Church, on earth as well.
 

Steven Merten

Active Member
The Protective Superiority of Jesus’ Catholic Anathema
over
State Capital Punishment


At the break out of the Catholic Clergy Abuse scandal, I was horrified that the names of active child abusers could not be released to police, due to Church bureaucratic red tape. I thought, why wouldn't the Pope at least send over his Swiss Guard snipers to set up on Catholic school roof tops, to protect our children, until the Church can get through its bureaucratic red tape.

The protective beauty of Jesus’ Catholic Anathema, is that it is fully reversible. While the anathematized person is still alive, they can repent and seek absolution from the anathema, from the Church. Apostolic Successors, binding an auto-Anathema upon, any and all, child molesters on earth, whom have not yet confessed their crime to police and courts, is the ultimate protection for our children, from our Lord Jesus Christ.

In the Book of Revelation, the ‘small scroll’ that is read, right before Jesus is Enthroned as King and Ruler of the world, is a list of Jesus' Catholic auto Anathemas. Jesus is not King and Ruler of the world, until His subjects, Catholic Apostolic Successors, put His Laws into enforcement on earth. When they do this, Jesus is enthroned as King and Ruler of the world and we go into ‘The Golden Era for Mankind’, Messianic Reign, where Jesus will wipe away our every tear.

The Blessed Mother has told us that there is very little crime in ‘The Golden Era for Mankind’ which is to come. With our King, Jesus Christ, placing a veil of protective Catholic auto-Anathemas over His Church, I can see how there would be very little crime on earth. Peace on earth as well.

Matthew 18:5
"Whoever welcomes one such child for my sake welcomes me. On the other hand, it would be better for anyone who leads astray one of these little ones who believes in me, to be drown by a millstone around his neck, in the depths of the sea. What terrible things will come on the world through scandal! It is inevitable that scandal should occur. Nonetheless, woe to that man through whom scandal comes! If your hand or foot is your undoing, cut it off and throw it from you! Better to enter life maimed or crippled than be thrown with two hands or feet into endless fire. If your eye is your downfall, gouge it out and cast it from you! Better to enter life with one eye than be thrown with both into fiery Gehenna.

Isaiah 11:14 The Rule of Immanuel
He shall strike the ruthless with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips he shall slay the wicked.

Revelation 11:15
Then the seventh angel blew his trumpet. There were loud voices in heaven, saying, 'The kingdom of the world now belongs to our Lord and to his Anointed, and he will reign forever and ever'.

Revelation 10:1
Then I saw another mighty angel come down from heaven wrapped in a cloud, with a halo around his head; his face was like the sun and his feet were like pillars of fire. In his hand he held a small scroll that had been opened. He placed his right foot on the sea and his left foot on the land, and then he cried out in a loud voice as a lion roars. When he cried out, the seven thunders raised their voices, too. When the seven thunders had spoken, I was about to write it down; but I heard a voice from heaven say, 'Seal up what the seven thunders have spoken, but do not write it down.' Then the angel I saw standing on the sea and on the land raised his right hand to heaven and swore by the one who lives forever and ever, who created heaven and earth and sea and all that is in them, 'There shall be no more delay. At the time when you hear the seventh angel blow his trumpet, the mysterious plan of God shall be fulfilled, as he promised to his servants the prophets.'
 
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Glaurung

Denizen of Niflheim
Jesus tells us that it would be better for His Followers to tie a millstone around the neck of someone and cast them into the sea, rather than let such an individual lead even the least of Jesus’ Followers into hell. Jesus’ Followers drowning someone, would be similar to State capital punishment.
Jesus is saying no such thing. The passage is a warning of the severity with which God will deal with those who lead others astray. Likewise, in this same passage, Jesus warns us of the seriousness of sin and its consequences. There is no suggestion that we actually mutilate our bodies.

From Jesus telling His Apostles about tying a millstone around a false leader’s neck and drowning them, Jesus goes on to Command His Apostles to use, Spiritual death Catholic Church Anathema, to protect His Bride, the Church, from having Her whole Body pulled into hell. Jesus Commands His Church to cut off from the body of the Church, which is Spiritual death Catholic Church Anathema, any individual member of the Church, who tries to pull the Body of His Church into hell. Jesus Commands Catholic Anathema, in order to have His Apostles protect His Bride the Church from having evildoers pull the whole body of His Church into hell, through their evil conduct.
Firstly, an anathema is a formal declaration of exclusion from the Christian community, not an irreversible declaration of a person's damnation. Excommunication (which is what an anathema essentially is) is medicinal. The intent of any kind of excommunication is the excommunicated's repentance and restoration to the Church, not a means for the Church to condemn people to Hell. Anathema and excommunication are the most severe forms of warning to which the Church can resort.

In scriptures, Jesus is described as having a sharp two edged sword coming out of His mouth. Jesus’ lips proclaiming sinners bound to their sins, which puts sinners to Spiritual death, is the sword of Christ’s mouth. Jesus blows the Holy Spirit upon His Apostles and swears to them, that anyone whom, from earth, they call upon Him to bind to sin, He will do so in heaven. Thus, Catholic Apostolic Successors, calling upon Jesus to bind sinners to sin, in Catholic Anathema, cuts off sinners from the life of the body of Christ’s Church, and Anathematized sinners are put to Spiritual death.
It's hard to see what your point even is. That the Church has been given the power to forgive or retain a person of or in their sins is not controversial. But what has that to do with capital punishment? The right to punish criminals is within the sphere of the civil authority and not that of the Church. Historically, the Church had reserved the right to require civil authority to coerce heretics and schismatics though legal punishment, but taking into account modern reality, any attempt to exercise this right would be futile and counterproductive.

Yes, the Church possesses authority over the baptised. It can forgive sins, excommunicate, teach authoritatively on faith and morals, and bind the faithful on matters of practice and discipline. But that does not prove that the continued practice of capital punishment by the state is the will of God.
 
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Glaurung

Denizen of Niflheim
I had multiple Catholic Priests tell me that 'Catholic Just War Theory' was accepted Catholic teaching, yet, the Priests taught that 'Catholic 'Just War Theory' opposes Jesus' Will'. So Catholic teaching can be confusing to me, when it comes to Catholic Church kills.
Individual priests can be wrong. Individual priests may even hold opinions contrary to authoritative teaching. The Catholic Church does not teach pacifism. War can be just under certain circumstances.

When a Pope wields his Swiss Guard sniper and kills a terrorist running at him with a knife, do you think this would be Jesus' Will on when a Pope should, protectively, kill? The terrorist has not ‘thrown the first stone’, because he has a knife, up against the Pope’s Swiss Guard sniper’s, faster, bullet.
There's a difference between what is morally permissible and the active will of God. God permits evil, He never wills it. The pope has the right to self defence and as such the pope having body guards is morally permissible. That does not mean that the reality of human beings killing each other is something that is willed by God as a positive good.

On another thread, there was a Pacifist and he believed it was against Jesus Will for the Pope to protect himself by killing an attacking terrorist. So do you believe that a Pope killing a terrorist with his Swiss Guard sniper, to protect himself, is 'humane and Christ-like', or, do you believe that a Pope killing a terrorist with his Swiss Guard sniper, is just as evil, hateful and sinful, as America protecting her people with Capital Punishment?
Stopping a terrorist is not an act of capital punishment. One is an immediate act of self defence, the other is an act of retributive justice by the state. Capital punishment has nothing to do with protecting society. It's about righting an already committed wrong.

Spiritual death from Catholic Anathema (Jesus’ lips binding sinners to their sins) is infinitely more deadly than State Capital Punishment. One person Spiritually struck down by Catholic Anathema, loses more life (Eternal Life) than the combined loss of years of physical life cut short from all the Capital Punishments, and war, in human history. Jesus Commands His Church to use Spiritual death Anathema to protect His Bride, the Church on earth.
Again, anathema does not sentence a person to Hell. (God alone can do that). Anathema is a form of excommunication. Dying in a state of excommunication may be very dangerous for one's salvation, but while one still lives one can repent and be restored to the Church.

Common sense would tell us that Jesus also wills His Church, from the Pope on down, to use physical death kills to protect His Bride, the Church, the Catholic Church, on earth as well.
No, the Church has never claimed the right to execute criminals. That is the sphere of the civil authority. Historically, civil authority punished religious crimes with the approval of the Church, but such punishment was never in the sphere of the Church as the Church.
 
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Steven Merten

Active Member
Individual priests can be wrong. Individual priests may even hold opinions contrary to authoritative teaching. The Catholic Church does not teach pacifism. War can be just under certain circumstances.

Hello Musing,
So which wars did Jesus Will us to kill to protect the innocent?
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
But that does not prove that the continued practice of capital punishment by the state is the will of God.
Especially since recent popes and the revised Catechism now say that it is unethical because there's alternative solutions that are less brutal and are pro-life.
 

Steven Merten

Active Member
God does not will for us to take human life.

War is an evil and God does not will evil. But we are permitted to resort to war when not doing so would result in an even greater evil.

Hello Musing,

Are you accusing God of Commanding Moses and the Israelites to do evil in Numbers 15:32?


Numbers 15:32 The Sabbath-breaker.
While the Israelites were in the wilderness, a man was discovered gathering wood on the sabbath day. Those who caught him at it brought him to Moses and Aaron and the whole community. But they put him in custody, for there was no clear decision as to what should be done with him. Then the LORD said to Moses: This man shall be put to death; let the whole community stone him outside the camp. So the whole community led him outside the camp and stoned him to death, as the LORD had commanded Moses.
 
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metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
When Moses and the flock were in the Sinai, there weren't any jails or prisons available.

Nowadays, if one is pro-capital punishment then they simply ain't pro-life no matter what they may want to call themselves. In reality, they're more pro-death.
 

Steven Merten

Active Member
When Moses and the flock were in the Sinai, there weren't any jails or prisons available.

Nowadays, if one is pro-capital punishment then they simply ain't pro-life no matter what they may want to call themselves. In reality, they're more pro-death.

Pope Honorius I

Pope Honorius I was posthumously anathematized, initially for subscribing to Monothelitism, and later only for failing to end it. The anathema against Honorius I became one of the central arguments against the doctrine of papal infallibility.
Quoted from: Pope Honorius I - Wikipedia

Hello metis,
What do you think of the Catholic Church posthumously anathematizing Pope Honorius I? We know that the Church, anathematizing (Anathema, the Church calling upon Jesus to bind a sinner to their sins) this one Pope, is more death (spiritual, eternal death) upon this one man, than the combined loss of years of human life cut short from all the physical death Capital Punishments and wars in human history.

The Catholic Church obviously feels that to posthumously put Pope Honorius I to Spiritual death Anathema, is an acceptable amount of death, for the better outcome of the, Jesus Willed, Spiritual Life protection of the Body of His Church, from Pope Honorius’ evil heresies. Do you agree?

For Pope Honorius I's heresies to have pulled the whole Body of Christ's Church into Spiritual death hell, would have been far more death, than the one Spiritual death anathema of Pope Honorius I. Thus, for the Jesus Willed Spiritual protection of His Church, the anathema of Pope Honorius I, is a Pro-(Spiritual Life)-Life, Spiritual death kill. Even though the Spiritual death Anathema of Pope Honorius I is more death, than the combined loss of years of physical life cut short from Capital Punishments from the whole of human history, it is still a Pro-Life, Jesus Willed protective Anathema Spiritual kill, for the protection of the Body of Jesus' Bride, the Catholic Church. Do you agree?

ANATHEMA

In passing this sentence, the pontiff is vested in amice, stole, and a violet cope, wearing his mitre, and assisted by twelve priests clad in their surplices and holding lighted candles. He takes his seat in front of the altar or in some other suitable place, amid pronounces the formula of anathema which ends with these words: Wherefore in the name of God the All-powerful, Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, of the Blessed Peter, Prince of the Apostles, and of all the saints, in virtue of the power which has been given us of binding and loosing in Heaven and on earth, we deprive N-- himself and all his accomplices and all his abettors of the Communion of the Body and Blood of our Lord, we separate him from the society of all Christians, we exclude him from the bosom of our Holy Mother the Church in Heaven and on earth, we declare him excommunicated and anathematized and we judge him condemned to eternal fire with Satan and his angels and all the reprobate, so long as he will not burst the fetters of the demon, do penance and satisfy the Church; we deliver him to Satan to mortify his body, that his soul may be saved on the day of judgment."...

...He who dares to despise our decision, let him be stricken with anathema maranatha, i.e. may he be damned at the coming of the Lord, may he have his place with Judas Iscariot, he and his companions.
Quoted from: New Advent Catholic Encyclopedia - Anathema

Matthew 18:5
"Whoever welcomes one such child for my sake welcomes me. On the other hand, it would be better for anyone who leads astray one of these little ones who believes in me, to be drown by a millstone around his neck, in the depths of the sea. What terrible things will come on the world through scandal! It is inevitable that scandal should occur. Nonetheless, woe to that man through whom scandal comes! If your hand or foot is your undoing, cut it off and throw it from you! Better to enter life maimed or crippled than be thrown with two hands or feet into endless fire. If your eye is your downfall, gouge it out and cast it from you! Better to enter life with one eye than be thrown with both into fiery Gehenna.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
I'm pro-life, thus not pro-death.

I don't excuse the unnecessary killing of a human life as the pro-death people do.

And this Pope, the current bishops, and the Catechism of the Catholic Church agree with us that are truly pro-life versus those who pretend they are.

Nor do we accept a secular right-wing political agenda to drive the Church's teachings.

Dt. 30[19] I call heaven and earth to witness against you this day, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and curse; therefore choose life, that you and your descendants may live.
 

Glaurung

Denizen of Niflheim
Are you accusing God of Commanding Moses and the Israelites to do evil in Numbers 15:32?
The Mosaic law (in its judicial and ceremonial) has been abrogated under the new law of Christ. So we would indeed be committing evil in executing anyone under its [the Mosaic law's] terms. The moral however (summed up in the Decalogue) has been retained and those commandments are not silent on the issue of taking of human life.

Now do not misunderstand me. Any Catholic who argues that the death penalty is intrinsically evil is wrong, as that would implicate the Church as having been in moral error. The issue concerns whether or not the Church should endorse it under modern conditions. On this question, the position of the current magisterium is clear. Just as it is clear that we are not to follow the Mosaic law. Not because the Mosaic law is evil but because the context of man's relationship with God has changed.
 
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Steven Merten

Active Member
The Mosaic law (in its judicial and ceremonial) has been abrogated under the new law of Christ. So we would indeed be committing evil in executing anyone under its [the Mosaic law's] terms. The moral however (summed up in the Decalogue) has been retained and those commandments are not silent on the issue of taking of human life.

Now do not misunderstand me. Any Catholic who argues that the death penalty is intrinsically evil is wrong, as that would implicate the Church as having been in moral error. The issue concerns whether or not the Church should endorse it under modern conditions. On this question, the position of the current magisterium is clear. Just as it is clear that we are not to follow the Mosaic law. Not because the Mosaic law is evil but because the context of man's relationship with God has changed.


Hello Musing,
You stated, “Not because the Mosaic law is evil but because the context of man's relationship with God has changed.

When Pope Francis was walking the empty streets of Rome, praying for Covid 19 victims, he had with him 7-10 men in suits, with black sedans. We know that Pope Francis had armed Swiss Guards and Italian police there to use, even lethal force, to protect himself. Suppose terrorists would have attacked the Pope and the Pope drew his armed militia and killed five or ten of the terrorists to protect himself. This is what God willed Moses to do to protect himself. Do you agree that Jesus wills Pope Francis to kill his attackers to protect himself, and that this Mosaic Law has not “changed’.

Or do you think that Pope Francis is doing evil in using lethal force to protect himself, rather than Pope Francis, "offer no resistance to injury", ‘Turn the other cheek’ and accept a glorious martyrdom, out of love and obedience to Jesus?

Matthew 5:38
"You have heard the commandment, 'An eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth.' But what I say to you is: offer no resistance to injury. When a person strikes you on the right cheek, turn and offer him the other. If anyone wants to go to law over your shirt, hand him your coat as well. Should anyone press you into service for one mile, go with him two miles. Give to the man who begs from you. Do not turn your back on the borrower.
 
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Glaurung

Denizen of Niflheim
Hello Musing,
You stated, “Not because the Mosaic law is evil but because the context of man's relationship with God has changed.
In a monumental way. We've been redeemed by Christ. Before the death and resurrection of Christ salvation was impossible.

When Pope Francis was walking the empty streets of Rome, praying for Covid 19 victims, he had with him 7-10 men in suits, with black sedans. We know that Pope Francis had armed Swiss Guards and Italian police there to use, even lethal force, to protect himself. Suppose terrorists would have attacked the Pope and the Pope drew his armed militia and killed five or ten of the terrorists to protect himself. This is what God willed Moses to do to protect himself. Do you agree that Jesus wills Pope Francis to kill his attackers to protect himself, and that this Mosaic Law has not “changed’.
I don't see any connection to Mosaic law here. The Mosaic law was a set of laws, ceremony and morals given to a particular people at a particular time. Its purpose was the foreshadowing of Christ. The people to whom it was given were given it as it was to be among them that Christ was to be born. The pope having body guards has nothing to do with Mosaic law. The pope has body guards because he has a natural right to self defence.

It is not that God "wills" the for the death of those who would attempt to harm the pope so much as God respects human freedom and the consequences thereof. Unfortunately, as a reality of human freedom, some may wish to harm the pope for whatever reason. It is simple prudence then to take measures to ensure the pope's safety.

Ultimately, your question is misconstrued. It's a hodgepodge of ideas and fails to distinguish between what is "willed" by God and what is "permitted" by God. God doesn't will for Pope Francis to smite his enemies with fire, sword and bullet. (As humorous I find the mental image of Pope Francis leading his men into battle to be). But God does permit to the pope his natural rights and among those rights is proportionate self defence.

Or do you think that Pope Francis is doing evil in using lethal force to protect himself, rather than Pope Francis, "offer no resistance to injury", ‘Turn the other cheek’ and accept a glorious martyrdom, out of love and obedience to Jesus?
Martyrdom is a holy death, but we are not to seek our own deaths for martyrdom's sake. Simply allowing a person to kill you when it was within your power to avoid (within reason and without sin) would be at the very least a catastrophic failure in prudence.
 
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Steven Merten

Active Member
In a monumental way. We've been redeemed by Christ. Before the death and resurrection of Christ salvation was impossible.


I don't see any connection to Mosaic law here. The Mosaic law was a set of laws, ceremony and morals given to a particular people at a particular time. Its purpose was the foreshadowing of Christ. The people to whom it was given were given it as it was to be among them that Christ was to be born. The pope having body guards has nothing to do with Mosaic law. The pope has body guards because he has a natural right to self defence.

It is not that God "wills" the for the death of those who would attempt to harm the pope so much as God respects human freedom and the consequences thereof. Unfortunately, as a reality of human freedom, some may wish to harm the pope for whatever reason. It is simple prudence then to take measures to ensure the pope's safety.

Ultimately, your question is misconstrued. It's a hodgepodge of ideas and fails to distinguish between what is "willed" by God and what is "permitted" by God. God doesn't will for Pope Francis to smite his enemies with fire, sword and bullet. (As humorous I find the mental image of Pope Francis leading his men into battle to be). But God does permit to the pope his natural rights and among those rights is proportionate self defence.

Martyrdom is a holy death, but we are not to seek our own deaths for martyrdom's sake. Simply allowing a person to kill you when it was within your power to avoid (within reason and without sin) would be at the very least a catastrophic failure in prudence.

Matthew 5:38
"You have heard the commandment, 'An eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth.' But what I say to you is: offer no resistance to injury. When a person strikes you on the right cheek, turn and offer him the other. If anyone wants to go to law over your shirt, hand him your coat as well. Should anyone press you into service for one mile, go with him two miles. Give to the man who begs from you. Do not turn your back on the borrower.

Hello Musing,
I am trying to understand your interpretation of Catholic Church teachings on Jesus Willed protective kills verses Pacifism. I hear a great number of Catholics who interpret Jesus’ words, offer no resistance to injury. When a person strikes you on the right cheek, turn and offer him the other.”, to mean that Jesus, Wills and Commands, us to be Pacifists.

Are you saying that, you believe Jesus Commands us, “offer no resistance to injury.”, but you feel that would be, ‘a catastrophic failure in prudence’, so you oppose Jesus’ Command and Will? Do you feel that the Catholic Church teaches us to oppose Jesus’ Command and Will that we offer no resistance to injury. When a person strikes you on the right cheek, turn and offer him the other.”? Or are you saying that there is a deeper reason to Jesus’ teaching of, “offer no resistance to injury. When a person strikes you on the right cheek, turn and offer him the other.”, and that Jesus did not change the Mosaic Law of, 'An eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth.'

Even if you, and Catholic Church teaching, believe that Jesus’ Commands are, (as you stated) “Simply allowing a person to kill you when it was within your power to avoid (within reason and without sin) would be at the very least a catastrophic failure in prudence”, I still believe that we should still do what Jesus’ Wills and Commands us to do, over and above, your opinion or Catholic teaching, should Catholic teaching oppose what Jesus, Commands and Wills us to do, as you may be suggesting.

Matthew 5:17
"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law and the Prophets; I have come not to abolish them but to fulfill them. Of this much I assure you: until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter of the law, not the smallest part of a letter, shall be done away with until it all comes true. That is why whoever breaks the least significant of these commands and teaches others to do so shall be called least in the kingdom of God. Whoever fulfills and teaches these commands shall be great in the kingdom of God. I tell you, unless your holiness surpasses that of the scribes and Pharisees you shall not enter the kingdom of God."
 
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Steven Merten

Active Member
John 14:15
If you love me, you will keep my commandments.

John 15:22
If I had not come to them and spoken to them, they would not be guilty of sin; now, however, their sin cannot be excused. To hate me is to hate my Father. Had I not performed such works among them as no one has ever done before, they would not be guilty of sin; but as it is, they have seen, and they go on hating me and my Father.

John 5:27

The Father has given over to him power to pass judgment because he is Son of Man; no need for you to be surprised at this, for an hour is coming in which all those in their tombs shall hear his voice and come forth. Those who have done right shall rise to live; the evildoers shall rise to be damned.

Does everyone understand, that to Love Jesus, we are to obey Jesus? To disobey Jesus, is to hate Jesus. Jesus will Judge us into heaven or hell, based on our love through obedience, or hate through disobedience.

Pope Honorius I, was posthumously anathematized, because his actions of heresy were a spiritual threat to Christ’s Church. Rather than let one member of the body of Christ’s Church, Pope Honorius I, pull the whole Body of Christ’s Church into hell, Pope Honorius I, was cut off from the spiritual life of the body of the Church, and hurled into hell, using Catholic Church Anathema.

Pope Honorius I was posthumously anathematized, initially for subscribing to Monothelitism, and later only for failing to end it. The anathema against Honorius I became one of the central arguments against the doctrine of papal infallibility.
Quoted from:
Pope Honorius I - Wikipedia

So if it is Jesus Will that no one, not even a Pope, use resistance to injury, then we have to think about the Church enacting an auto-anathema, to spiritually cut off and hurl into hell, those who hate Jesus in disobedience to His Will and Command of, "offer no resistance to injury", in order to protect the Body of the Church from being pulled into hell by their evil actions.

Matthew 5:38
"You have heard the commandment, 'An eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth.' But what I say to you is: offer no resistance to injury. When a person strikes you on the right cheek, turn and offer him the other.

Matthew 18:5
"Whoever welcomes one such child for my sake welcomes me. On the other hand, it would be better for anyone who leads astray one of these little ones who believes in me, to be drown by a millstone around his neck, in the depths of the sea. What terrible things will come on the world through scandal! It is inevitable that scandal should occur. Nonetheless, woe to that man through whom scandal comes! If your hand or foot is your undoing, cut it off and throw it from you! Better to enter life maimed or crippled than be thrown with two hands or feet into endless fire. If your eye is your downfall, gouge it out and cast it from you! Better to enter life with one eye than be thrown with both into fiery Gehenna.
 
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Steven Merten

Active Member
Martyrdom is a holy death, but we are not to seek our own deaths for martyrdom's sake. Simply allowing a person to kill you when it was within your power to avoid (within reason and without sin) would be at the very least a catastrophic failure in prudence.

To Obey God in the face of Martyrdom is the, Greatest of all,
Love for God

John 15:10
If you keep my commandments, you will remain in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commandments and remain in his love. “I have told you this so that my joy may be in you and your joy may be complete. This is my commandment: love one another as I love you. No one has greater love than this, to lay down one’s life for one’s friends. You are my friends if you do what I command you.

It is fairly easy to avoid martyrdom when you can just shoot your oppressor; especially when doing so is the chosen option of most Popes. In the story of 2 Macabees 7:1 Martyrdom of a Mother and Her Seven Sons, it also would have been fairly easy for the mother and her seven sons to avoid martyrdom as well. To avoid martyrdom, all the Mother and her seven sons had to do is eat pork, in violation to the Will and Command of God, and thus physically survive, and even attain great wealth and power on earth, for doing so. The Mother and her seven sons chose martyrdom, out of love and faithfulness, through obedience to God.

If Jesus did, in fact, Will and Command us to use no force to protect ourselves (Matthew 5:38 offer no resistance to injury), this would certainly level the playing field of, ‘Opportunity to love Jesus through faithfulness to His Will, in the face of martyrdom’, for all Christians around the world. Jesus tells us we are only His friends if we do what He Wills and Commands us to do, You are my friends if you do what I command you. Jesus tells us, “No one has greater love than this, to lay down one’s life for one’s friends.” There is no greater love for our ‘Friend’, Jesus Christ, than to accept martyrdom, in order to remain faithfully loving, through obedience to the Commands of our Lord God and Savoir, Jesus Christ.

In Iraq, a group of Middle Eastern Christian women were faced with ISIS terrorists bearing down on their camp. A westerner offered to help the Christian women hide the crosses tattooed on their arms. The Christian Middle Eastern women responded, “We would rather die than deny or disobey our Lord God and Savior, Jesus Christ!” And the Christian women did die a glorious, greatest gift of love for Jesus, martyrdom for our 'Friend', God, and Savior, Jesus Christ.

I have heard many Christians say, ‘I will just commit a ‘lesser of two evils’ in disobedience to the Will and Commands of God, to avoid martyrdom.’ We will see how this option works out for ‘lesser of two evils’ evil doers, when they stand before the Throne of God on Judgement Day, where Jesus will Judge all mankind as to their faithful, love through obedience, to His Will.

2 Maccabees 7, Martyrdom of a Mother and Her Seven Sons.
It also happened that seven brothers with their mother were arrested and tortured with whips and scourges by the king to force them to eat pork in violation of God’s law.


One of the brothers, speaking for the others, said: “What do you expect to learn by questioning us? We are ready to die rather than transgress the laws of our ancestors.” At that the king, in a fury, gave orders to have pans and caldrons heated. These were quickly heated, and he gave the order to cut out the tongue of the one who had spoken for the others, to scalp him and cut off his hands and feet, while the rest of his brothers and his mother looked on. When he was completely maimed but still breathing, the king ordered them to carry him to the fire and fry him. As a cloud of smoke spread from the pan, the brothers and their mother encouraged one another to die nobly, with these words: “The Lord God is looking on and truly has compassion on us, as Moses declared in his song, when he openly bore witness, saying, ‘And God will have compassion on his servants.’”

After the first brother had died in this manner, they brought the second to be made sport of. After tearing off the skin and hair of his head, they asked him, “Will you eat the pork rather than have your body tortured limb by limb?” Answering in the language of his ancestors, he said, “Never!” So he in turn suffered the same tortures as the first. With his last breath he said: “You accursed fiend, you are depriving us of this present life, but the King of the universe will raise us up to live again forever, because we are dying for his laws.”

After him the third suffered their cruel sport. He put forth his tongue at once when told to do so, and bravely stretched out his hands, as he spoke these noble words: “It was from Heaven that I received these; for the sake of his laws I disregard them; from him I hope to receive them again.” Even the king and his attendants marveled at the young man’s spirit, because he regarded his sufferings as nothing.

After he had died, they tortured and maltreated the fourth brother in the same way. When he was near death, he said, “It is my choice to die at the hands of mortals with the hope that God will restore me to life; but for you, there will be no resurrection to life.

They next brought forward the fifth brother and maltreated him.Looking at the king, he said: “Mortal though you are, you have power over human beings, so you do what you please. But do not think that our nation is forsaken by God. Only wait, and you will see how his great power will torment you and your descendants.” After him they brought the sixth brother. When he was about to die, he said: “Have no vain illusions. We suffer these things on our own account, because we have sinned against our God; that is why such shocking things have happened. Do not think, then, that you will go unpunished for having dared to fight against God.”

Most admirable and worthy of everlasting remembrance was the mother who, seeing her seven sons perish in a single day, bore it courageously because of her hope in the Lord. Filled with a noble spirit that stirred her womanly reason with manly emotion, she exhorted each of them in the language of their ancestors with these words: “I do not know how you came to be in my womb; it was not I who gave you breath and life, nor was it I who arranged the elements you are made of. Therefore, since it is the Creator of the universe who shaped the beginning of humankind and brought about the origin of everything, he, in his mercy, will give you back both breath and life, because you now disregard yourselves for the sake of his law.

Antiochus, suspecting insult in her words, thought he was being ridiculed. As the youngest brother was still alive, the king appealed to him, not with mere words, but with promises on oath, to make him rich and happy if he would abandon his ancestral customs: he would make him his Friend and entrust him with high office. When the youth paid no attention to him at all, the king appealed to the mother, urging her to advise her boy to save his life. After he had urged her for a long time, she agreed to persuade her son. She leaned over close to him and, in derision of the cruel tyrant, said in their native language: “Son, have pity on me, who carried you in my womb for nine months, nursed you for three years, brought you up, educated and supported you to your present age. I beg you, child, to look at the heavens and the earth and see all that is in them; then you will know that God did not make them out of existing things. In the same way humankind came into existence. Do not be afraid of this executioner, but be worthy of your brothers and accept death, so that in the time of mercy I may receive you again with your brothers.

She had scarcely finished speaking when the youth said: “What is the delay? I will not obey the king’s command. I obey the command of the law given to our ancestors through Moses. But you, who have contrived every kind of evil for the Hebrews, will not escape the hands of God. We, indeed, are suffering because of our sins. Though for a little while our living Lord has been angry, correcting and chastising us, he will again be reconciled with his servants. But you, wretch, most vile of mortals, do not, in your insolence, buoy yourself up with unfounded hopes, as you raise your hand against the children of heaven.You have not yet escaped the judgment of the almighty and all-seeing God. Our brothers, after enduring brief pain, have drunk of never-failing life, under God’s covenant. But you, by the judgment of God, shall receive just punishments for your arrogance.

Like my brothers, I offer up my body and my life for our ancestral laws, imploring God to show mercy soon to our nation, and by afflictions and blows to make you confess that he alone is God. Through me and my brothers, may there be an end to the wrath of the Almighty that has justly fallen on our whole nation.” At that, the king became enraged and treated him even worse than the others, since he bitterly resented the boy’s contempt. Thus he too died undefiled, putting all his trust in the Lord.

Last of all, after her sons, the mother was put to death.
 
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