criticizing Christianity

Pah · Dec 5, 2006

NetDoc said:
The real problem is that many Christians do stupid stuff. Really stupid stuff that they should be critisized for. Me included.

The criticisms are usually meant for the PERSON, but their professed beliefs get in the way and become the focal point of the criticism. Is this right? Well, it's incredibly important for us to not put a stumbling block OF OUR OWN in the way.

Christianity has enough issues being accepted. People hate us for what we are and they have from the very beginning.

II Timothy 3:12 In fact, everyone who wants to live a godly life in Christ Jesus will be persecuted, NIV

II Peter 4:12 Dear friends, do not be surprised at the painful trial you are suffering, as though something strange were happening to you. 13 But rejoice that you participate in the sufferings of Christ, so that you may be overjoyed when his glory is revealed. 14 If you are insulted because of the name of Christ, you are blessed, for the Spirit of glory and of God rests on you. 15 If you suffer, it should not be as a murderer or thief or any other kind of criminal, or even as a meddler. 16 However, if you suffer as a Christian, do not be ashamed, but praise God that you bear that name. NIV

There is a great distinction between being persecuted and being criticized. If you find insult in criticism, you will never understand the reproof offered a Christian by other Christians. Christ did not hestitate to criticize

Scuba Pete · Dec 5, 2006

Read the first line.

Pah · Dec 5, 2006

NetDoc said:
Read the first line.

I did and then replied to the rest of your post.

Scuba Pete · Dec 5, 2006

Well, that was typical then. For some, Christians can do no right. You will be criticized for doing good by those who dispise you.

Snowbear · Dec 5, 2006

comprehend said:
Is it necessary to have actually read the bible before one can criticize Christianity?

It would certainly help. But since when did criticizing any religion based on what one *thinks* it stands for was ever precluded by actually *knowing* its doctrines and principles

Terrywoodenpic said:
That would depend on what they are criticizing Christianity about.
The way we behave?
The way we treat non Christians?
Our lack of Christianity?
Our lack of Faith?
our lack of Unity?
There are many ways to criticize Christianity with out a Knowledge of the Bible.

As others have already noted - these are criticisms of the people who *proclaim* Christianity.

Unfortunately, the criticisms of those who proclaim to be Christians are often well-founded and tend to reflect poorly on... and of course lead to criticism of... the religion itself.

Scott1 · Dec 5, 2006

comprehend said:
Is it necessary to have actually read the bible before one can criticize Christianity? I think it is. Cover to cover. Would anybody listen to me complain about some movie that I haven't seen? of course not. So why does anybody listen to people who argue against Christianity when they haven't actually read the Bible?

Just one thing.... not all of Christianity is IN the Bible.... so someone could read the entire thing several times cover to cover and STILL not understand more than 20% of Christian theology (for instance: the Trinity, the Divinity of Christ, the humanity of Christ, our history, our liturgy, our prayers... etc.etc..).

I think anyone has the right to criticize Christianity or Christians in general based upon whatever personal experiences they have had.... but once they've done so, a Christian would discuss their issues with love and respect.... because most criticisms about the faith are based upon a good natured ignorance of the faith and can be resolved. Issues that are based in fact (domination of women, history of violence, etc) must be met with the same love and respect... and HONESTY. Our faith is no more perfect than the humans who worship... and we can only seek to change our "here and now".

Peace in Christ,
Scott

reyjamiei · Dec 6, 2006

comprehend said:
Is it necessary to have actually read the bible before one can criticize Christianity? I think it is. Cover to cover. Would anybody listen to me complain about some movie that I haven't seen? of course not. So why does anybody listen to people who argue against Christianity when they haven't actually read the Bible?

A lot of people do criticize the screenplay of movies that they've seen, even though they haven't read the screenplay.

Comprehend · Dec 6, 2006

lunamoth said:
But comprehend, a religion is much more than its Book. Do you think a person could know all there is to know about LDS by reading the Bible + BoM? Isn't there anything else that might be considered doctrine or tradition not found, or not directly understood, from reading those books as if in a vaccuum?

luna

Lunamoth, I understand your point. Yes there are many things one may learn about a religion from secondary sources. However, I think that one could learn practically everything there is to know about LDS by reading our standard works (Bible, BoM, D&C, PoGP). I can't think of anything in our doctrine that isn't included in those books (except for temple ceremonies and that would be in the D&C if we wanted people to read it).

Comprehend · Dec 6, 2006

Scott1 said:
Just one thing.... not all of Christianity is IN the Bible.... so someone could read the entire thing several times cover to cover and STILL not understand more than 20% of Christian theology (for instance: the Trinity, the Divinity of Christ, the humanity of Christ, our history, our liturgy, our prayers... etc.etc..).

I thought Christians took all of their doctrine from the Bible? You aren't saying that your religion is 20% from God and 80% from the reasoning of man are you? (I can't imagine that you are saying that, I am just trying to understand what you mean.)

I think anyone has the right to criticize Christianity or Christians in general based upon whatever personal experiences they have had.... but once they've done so, a Christian would discuss their issues with love and respect.... because most criticisms about the faith are based upon a good natured ignorance of the faith and can be resolved. Issues that are based in fact (domination of women, history of violence, etc) must be met with the same love and respect... and HONESTY. Our faith is no more perfect than the humans who worship... and we can only seek to change our "here and now".

Peace in Christ,
Scott

so do you think (see bold above) that most criticism could be taken care of by actually reading another's doctrine before hand? I think so and I think it would make discussion all around much more informative, kind and productive.

lunamoth · Dec 6, 2006

comprehend said:
Lunamoth, I understand your point. Yes there are many things one may learn about a religion from secondary sources. However, I think that one could learn practically everything there is to know about LDS by reading our standard works (Bible, BoM, D&C, PoGP). I can't think of anything in our doctrine that isn't included in those books (except for temple ceremonies and that would be in the D&C if we wanted people to read it).

I'm sure that all of your doctrine is based upon this Scripture, but I would also bet that someone unfamiliar with your doctrine, reading these Books in isolation, would come up with a different doctrine. It's sometimes hard to see that much of what seems to be plain understanding is actually a learned interpretation.

Take the example of the LDS Godhead, which like the Trinity is very much Biblically based. And yet niether of these doctrines is plain to see in reading the Bible on one's own. As is so often pointed out, if it were then there would not be so many different understandings of God, the Trinity, and the divine/human nature of Jesus.

I understand your original point though and I think that I've gone off-topic. It seems hypocritical to condemn another's religion when you know very little about it yourself. I agree.

!Fluffy! · Dec 6, 2006

comprehend said:
Is it necessary to have actually read the bible before one can criticize Christianity? I think it is. Cover to cover. Would anybody listen to me complain about some movie that I haven't seen? of course not. So why does anybody listen to people who argue against Christianity when they haven't actually read the Bible?

We who follow Christ are the embodiment of His actual church. Will others judge the church by the (many versions of) the Book that even the apostles didn't have?

Is it fair that others judged Christ-ianity based on what came out of the mouths and hearts of the likes of Peter, Barnabus, Timothy and Paul?

Snowbear · Dec 6, 2006

comprehend said:
I thought Christians took all of their doctrine from the Bible?

Do you take all of your doctrine from the Bible?

sojourner · Dec 6, 2006

I think we should be our own best critics of our religion. If we don't scrutinize ourselves, what good can come of us?

Reading the whole of the Bible really is not the be-all-end-all. The criticism should also rightly include the actions of those who adhere to the religion, for the religion means nothing without the actions of the faithful.

A hot sports car sitting in a parking space is just a hunk of metal until a competent driver gets behind the wheel and realizes the potential of the machine. And a poor driver will make the car seem like crap. Only a good driver can bring out the best in the car.

We really don't learn much about the car from reading the owner's manual and the Chilton's repair book. We learn much more by observing the car in action, with its driver. (On Memorial Day, we don't sit around reading owner's manuals...we watch the race.) Only then are we able to adequately critique the car. And the best critique usually comes from the driver.

adilrockstar · Dec 6, 2006

Jensa said:
Does someone have to know a person in and out before criticizing how they act?

YES. That is why we shouldn't be critical. Have you ever heard the saying "until you have walked a mile in my shoes"?

Comprehend · Dec 6, 2006

Snowbear said:
Do you take all of your doctrine from the Bible?

, sorry. I will be more precise. I thought *mainstream* Christians take all of their doctrine from the Bible. However, I think I could point out almost all of LDS doctrine appearing in some form in the Bible. but as I am sure you know, it is LDS doctrine that many plain and simple truths were taken from the bible. Thank you for pointing out my lazy word choice. I will not be so lazy next time.

McBell · Dec 6, 2006

adilrockstar said:
YES. That is why we shouldn't be critical. Have you ever heard the saying "until you have walked a mile in my shoes"?

I agree with that.
Mainly because you will be amile away, have their shoes, and can say anyting you like without them being able to hear!!

Gentoo · Dec 6, 2006

adilrockstar said:
YES. That is why we shouldn't be critical. Have you ever heard the saying "until you have walked a mile in my shoes"?

I suspect a lot of people don't actually put that into practice... it's a shame really...

Snowbear · Dec 6, 2006

comprehend said:
, sorry. I will be more precise. I thought *mainstream* Christians take all of their doctrine from the Bible. However, I think I could point out almost all of LDS doctrine appearing in some form in the Bible. but as I am sure you know, it is LDS doctrine that many plain and simple truths were taken from the bible. Thank you for pointing out my lazy word choice. I will not be so lazy next time.

Hehe... just keepin' you on your toes

I guess that depends on who you call "mainstream." There are actually many sects of non-LDS who do not take the Bible as their sole source of doctrine.

Comprehend · Dec 6, 2006

Snowbear said:
Hehe... just keepin' you on your toes

I guess that depends on who you call "mainstream." There are actually many sects of non-LDS who do not take the Bible as their sole source of doctrine.

so you do not take the bible to be the perfect word of God and you admit that the bible was not the final word from God? you are starting to sound like a mormon

Snowbear · Dec 6, 2006

comprehend said:
so you do not take the bible to be the perfect word of God and you admit that the bible was not the final word from God? you are starting to sound like a mormon

I didn't say that. I said, 'There are actually many sects of non-LDS who do not take the Bible as their sole source of doctrine.'

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