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Why is it that religious people from same faith can tell you so differently what truth is?
- Thread starter Spirit of Light
- Start date
I don't believe that verse is telling to only listen to one set of teachings, to align yourself with some centrally controlled message. The following verses seems to make it clear that it's about not doing that, not saying I am of Paul, or I am of Cephas, etc.
To say, our group has the truth and the rest are in error, seems to be doing exactly what Paul said is creating divisions. "I am of the Watchtower", is why Paul wrote what he did, saying don't do that. If there is one mind, and one faith, then why does the Watchtower consider Catholics to not be Christian? Doesn't that seem to be what Paul is criticizing?
Nimos
Well-Known Member
It depends how you look at it. If you run with the idea that we can never truly know anything, meaning yes we could live in a simulation, in fact, we might actually just have existed since this morning and everything we know is just "faked" into our memory. Then surely there is no such thing as truth.
But if you agree that it is probably not the most effective way to view life. Then we can talk about truth, we are just never really talking about absolute truth.
So assuming that gravity is real, based on the evidence it is more true to believe it, than assuming that it is not and that we are just being fooled into believing it is true.
ecco
Veteran Member
For the same reasons that people have different views on politics. No two people's brains are wired exactly alike. No two people's influences are identical.
When the books of the NT were being assembled there were dissenters on every issue. Most notably, Marcion. Today, there are thousands of sects of Christianity,
Shortly after the Founding of Islam, it split into two. Today there are many different sects of Islam. Bahai is a relatively recent diversion from Isalm.
All these diversions occurred because different minds see truth differently.
Sadly, all these resulting differences have been the cause of much conflict and bloodshed.
ecco
Veteran Member
Not when it comes to philosophical concepts.
Brian2
Veteran Member
Who interpreted the Bible for your teachers?
If the understanding of the Bible by the faithful and discreet slave is given by God incrementally, does that mean that God gets them to interpret parts of the Bible one way at one time and then a different way later when it becomes clear to the faithful slave that the first interpretation was wrong?
It does sound like a way to force unity of belief but all believing the same thing does not mean that you are all believing the truth?
Spirit of Light
Be who ever you want
I am sure @Amanaki did not mean for his thread to be a debate about the beliefs of JW’s but with his permission I will respond to your questions....
Yes, we will disfellowship dissenters because they disrupt the peace we share in common with our global brotherhood. It is an entirely Biblical practice as it was carried out in the first century congregations. (2 John 10,11; 1 Corinthians 5:9-13) The truth is not open to personal interpretation. Those who want to introduce their own ideas and promote them, cause divisions. That is not permitted. It doesn’t mean that we can’t voice any concerns, it just means that we do so in such a way that addresses those concerns humbly and scripturally.
If you want to become one of Jehovah’s Witnesses, you voluntarily accept our teachings as this is a prerequisite for baptism. Everyone who accepts the terms, (as they were required to do when the Christians first broke away from Judaism) knows that no other teachings can be introduced because there is an appointed “slave” whose job it is to “feed” his fellow slaves their “food at the proper time”. All we need to know must of necessity come through this channel. No one else is charged with dispensing this spiritual “food” and it isn’t a buffet where you pick and chose according to your own preferences. (Matthew 24:45) The menu is set and all partake of the same “food”.
Those who are disfellowshipped know exactly what it means....that they are no longer one of Jehovah’s Witnesses. It means that their behavior, after many sessions with the elders to address all the circumstances, will be assessed according to the person’s response to what is always loving discipline. No one is disfellowshipped lightly...it is a last resort. No one who is repentant is ever disfellowshipped.
According to 2 John 10,11, even ‘saying a greeting’ to one who is an unrepentant sinner (a person who either takes no responsibility for their actions, or blames others for what they did) will not be acknowledged as belonging to our brotherhood until they repent. The only person standing in their way to reinstatement and family inclusion, is themselves. If there is no repentance, only justification or denial, we have no scriptural choice but to follow the Bible’s instruction.
As Jesus said....”34 Do not think I came to bring peace to the earth; I came to bring, not peace, but a sword. 35 For I came to cause division, with a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law. 36 Indeed, a man’s enemies will be those of his own household. 37 Whoever has greater affection for father or mother than for me is not worthy of me; and whoever has greater affection for son or daughter than for me is not worthy of me. 38 And whoever does not accept his torture stake and follow after me is not worthy of me. 39 Whoever finds his soul will lose it, and whoever loses his soul for my sake will find it.” (Matthew 10:34-39)
Emotions can get in the way in these instances, but Jesus is quite clear....if you have greater affection for your family members than you have for him, and his standards, then you will be pronounced as unworthy of the benefits of his sacrifice.
That’s it.....you can’t be a square peg in a round hole.....it makes everyone uncomfortable. It robs the congregation of peace and unity. (1 Corinthians 1:10) And the one in disagreement finds no support and also feels unaccepted. No winners there.
We prefer that people be honest. No one likes a hypocrite, especially Jesus. You must have the courage of your convictions either way.....to live a lie is not to live at all. If you don’t belong, why not just leave? Can you understand that only those who are baptised (those who have publicly declared their dedication to God as a member of his ‘nation’ ) can be disfellowshipped?
If a child raised as a JW decides it’s not for them, and leaves....it’s heartbreaking, but because no vow was taken, no vow was broken. It’s their life to do with as they wish. Jehovah does not ever force anyone to make that vow....it has to be undertaken voluntarily and in full recognition as to what it means. They also understand what it means to reject God’s standards.
Family will not shun an unbaptised one, but usually because there is no longer that spiritual connection, sometimes family closeness can fade away, especially if the choices of the unbaptised family member descends into unacceptable behaviors.
It’s all about our choices....
Yes, we will disfellowship dissenters because they disrupt the peace we share in common with our global brotherhood. It is an entirely Biblical practice as it was carried out in the first century congregations. (2 John 10,11; 1 Corinthians 5:9-13) The truth is not open to personal interpretation. Those who want to introduce their own ideas and promote them, cause divisions. That is not permitted. It doesn’t mean that we can’t voice any concerns, it just means that we do so in such a way that addresses those concerns humbly and scripturally.
If you want to become one of Jehovah’s Witnesses, you voluntarily accept our teachings as this is a prerequisite for baptism. Everyone who accepts the terms, (as they were required to do when the Christians first broke away from Judaism) knows that no other teachings can be introduced because there is an appointed “slave” whose job it is to “feed” his fellow slaves their “food at the proper time”. All we need to know must of necessity come through this channel. No one else is charged with dispensing this spiritual “food” and it isn’t a buffet where you pick and chose according to your own preferences. (Matthew 24:45) The menu is set and all partake of the same “food”.
Those who are disfellowshipped know exactly what it means....that they are no longer one of Jehovah’s Witnesses. It means that their behavior, after many sessions with the elders to address all the circumstances, will be assessed according to the person’s response to what is always loving discipline. No one is disfellowshipped lightly...it is a last resort. No one who is repentant is ever disfellowshipped.
According to 2 John 10,11, even ‘saying a greeting’ to one who is an unrepentant sinner (a person who either takes no responsibility for their actions, or blames others for what they did) will not be acknowledged as belonging to our brotherhood until they repent. The only person standing in their way to reinstatement and family inclusion, is themselves. If there is no repentance, only justification or denial, we have no scriptural choice but to follow the Bible’s instruction.
As Jesus said....”34 Do not think I came to bring peace to the earth; I came to bring, not peace, but a sword. 35 For I came to cause division, with a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law. 36 Indeed, a man’s enemies will be those of his own household. 37 Whoever has greater affection for father or mother than for me is not worthy of me; and whoever has greater affection for son or daughter than for me is not worthy of me. 38 And whoever does not accept his torture stake and follow after me is not worthy of me. 39 Whoever finds his soul will lose it, and whoever loses his soul for my sake will find it.” (Matthew 10:34-39)
Emotions can get in the way in these instances, but Jesus is quite clear....if you have greater affection for your family members than you have for him, and his standards, then you will be pronounced as unworthy of the benefits of his sacrifice.
That’s it.....you can’t be a square peg in a round hole.....it makes everyone uncomfortable. It robs the congregation of peace and unity. (1 Corinthians 1:10) And the one in disagreement finds no support and also feels unaccepted. No winners there.
We prefer that people be honest. No one likes a hypocrite, especially Jesus. You must have the courage of your convictions either way.....to live a lie is not to live at all. If you don’t belong, why not just leave? Can you understand that only those who are baptised (those who have publicly declared their dedication to God as a member of his ‘nation’ ) can be disfellowshipped?
If a child raised as a JW decides it’s not for them, and leaves....it’s heartbreaking, but because no vow was taken, no vow was broken. It’s their life to do with as they wish. Jehovah does not ever force anyone to make that vow....it has to be undertaken voluntarily and in full recognition as to what it means. They also understand what it means to reject God’s standards.
Family will not shun an unbaptised one, but usually because there is no longer that spiritual connection, sometimes family closeness can fade away, especially if the choices of the unbaptised family member descends into unacceptable behaviors.
It’s all about our choices....
Since Jesus appointed them, and these are all anointed with God’s spirit, looking back on the writings of the apostles, we see the same thing back then. God’s spirit revealed only what they needed to know, when they needed to know it.
If we look at the history of Christianity, it becomes obvious that if the first Christians had any idea that Christ’s return was still 2000 years into the future, many would have given up. God has kept the immanence of the Kingdom, to keep their faith alive as long as they were. Death then is a mere hiatus....an interruption of life, with no awareness of the passing of time. Paul said that all those chosen for heavenly life would “sleep” in death until Christ returned to take them “home”.....he had no idea that it was so far in the future, but it didn’t matter. God’s timetable doesn’t depend on our time...it is all placed in his time....unfolding exactly as he said it would.
No one is forced to believe anything.....without an invitation from the Father, no one can come to the son in the fist place. (John 6:44; 65) God knows those who belong to him.....he excludes those who don’t. It’s got little to do with us or how we view ourselves.
God “draws” only those in whom he sees the qualities he is looking for. If we don’t have them, but demonstrate an attitude of rebellion such as was demonstrated when Moses was appointed to lead Israel.....we know what happened to them.
I leave that all in God’s very capable hands.
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osgart
Nothing my eye, Something for sure
I'm the only one who follows my spiritual path. I can't excommunicate myself, but I can sure knock myself up or down a few steps depending.
Really though I encourage everyone to evaluate and take inventory of what language they use in describing a good character quality. Consider the source, and don't be afraid to look into where meanings are not quite adequately defined to describe the expression.
Common language is foremost importance in my spiritual path. And where common language fails I have to diverge.
It's fun to put things in my own words and with my own intent however I have to be about holding myself to a higher standard then my own. So I reevaluate things quite a bit.
My aim is to find things that inspire me personally in the path I have chosen. I have a rule not to use other people's scriptures.
Paul of the Bible had some compelling words about spiritual qualities. Mainly I look at the words and meanings of the qualities moreso then the context of how they are used.
Really though I encourage everyone to evaluate and take inventory of what language they use in describing a good character quality. Consider the source, and don't be afraid to look into where meanings are not quite adequately defined to describe the expression.
Common language is foremost importance in my spiritual path. And where common language fails I have to diverge.
It's fun to put things in my own words and with my own intent however I have to be about holding myself to a higher standard then my own. So I reevaluate things quite a bit.
My aim is to find things that inspire me personally in the path I have chosen. I have a rule not to use other people's scriptures.
Paul of the Bible had some compelling words about spiritual qualities. Mainly I look at the words and meanings of the qualities moreso then the context of how they are used.
Thank you for being a champ in this discourse and taking what I said in the spirit that I was trying to say it in.
I don't think having a difference is being dishonest. I am married and we may have differences, but commitment trumps differences.
I may not personally like mauve for my bedroom, but it isn't hypocritical for me to say, in my heart, "I may not like mauve but I love pleasing my wife" and mauve it is.
Hypocritical would be to say "I agree with everything that is said" when we are saying something totally different to someone else.
But we may just be splitting hairs since, in the essence of what you are saying, I agree with you.
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rational experiences
Veteran Member
If a human says, only after the Earth gases were all present in their Nobility...as mass of. Only when water and oxygen existed....did my own human life eventually own form.
And I claim that story is because of GOD.
So then you would ask the self, human, using baby to parent first adult 2 human being parent memory...where did they come from? The whole life recording of their emergence from beginning to end would exist RECORDED.
Science in the status, mystery and what an atmosphere does itself...records all bodies animate and inanimate...in the same status. Therefore would say IMAGE in the function of God....meaning gas history itself in space owns that condition.
It is not owned by just humans first....it is proven owned by the inanimate which is first in status of detailing information. What is less than bio self living life that dies because it owns natural death. Being a conclusive self review...I already own death.
If I change any natural state I simply die earlier from causes....if I choose to alter natural or natural history....which is as I stated, NATURAL ORDER.
So in science I personally as the scientist stated NATURAL ORDER and told self my place of ORDER in lineage is exactly where it is. Therefore you cannot change NATURAL order why science says I told science myself and science says you cannot change NATURAL ORDER...why I detailed it.
Now if a human says I believe that when I die I still own a spirit, in the eternal as the eternal....why do so many humans believe?
Why would a human claim my parent history says God caused my life to be formed?
And then explain how self came out onto the planet God in an atmospheric condition, because gases had filled back in what separated the origin of the eternal from the destroyed eternal....creation itself?
Being how it was explained. The presence of God communicated by the heavenly spirits to the eternal and forced new spirits to be released from it. So we would know GOD caused it.
Yet we are not physically a circle like O Earth, the God body is. We came out of spirit eternal walking owning a spirit body as a self.
Science would not be enabled to disprove that story....yet have tried for a long time to enforce their NATURAL ORDER theme upon us all.....when NATURAL ORDER is just a discussion of historical fact of self presence.
If a scientist poses a thought to the non presence of a human, that thought only belongs to natural self human DEATH.
Why the spiritual conscious natural healer medical biological sciences said, never contemplate your own death....when we already owned it.
And I claim that story is because of GOD.
So then you would ask the self, human, using baby to parent first adult 2 human being parent memory...where did they come from? The whole life recording of their emergence from beginning to end would exist RECORDED.
Science in the status, mystery and what an atmosphere does itself...records all bodies animate and inanimate...in the same status. Therefore would say IMAGE in the function of God....meaning gas history itself in space owns that condition.
It is not owned by just humans first....it is proven owned by the inanimate which is first in status of detailing information. What is less than bio self living life that dies because it owns natural death. Being a conclusive self review...I already own death.
If I change any natural state I simply die earlier from causes....if I choose to alter natural or natural history....which is as I stated, NATURAL ORDER.
So in science I personally as the scientist stated NATURAL ORDER and told self my place of ORDER in lineage is exactly where it is. Therefore you cannot change NATURAL order why science says I told science myself and science says you cannot change NATURAL ORDER...why I detailed it.
Now if a human says I believe that when I die I still own a spirit, in the eternal as the eternal....why do so many humans believe?
Why would a human claim my parent history says God caused my life to be formed?
And then explain how self came out onto the planet God in an atmospheric condition, because gases had filled back in what separated the origin of the eternal from the destroyed eternal....creation itself?
Being how it was explained. The presence of God communicated by the heavenly spirits to the eternal and forced new spirits to be released from it. So we would know GOD caused it.
Yet we are not physically a circle like O Earth, the God body is. We came out of spirit eternal walking owning a spirit body as a self.
Science would not be enabled to disprove that story....yet have tried for a long time to enforce their NATURAL ORDER theme upon us all.....when NATURAL ORDER is just a discussion of historical fact of self presence.
If a scientist poses a thought to the non presence of a human, that thought only belongs to natural self human DEATH.
Why the spiritual conscious natural healer medical biological sciences said, never contemplate your own death....when we already owned it.
I have never personally seen a case where a JW was told they would die without blood....who actually did.
It was very common a few decades ago before they woke up to the fact that more people died after having blood transfusions, than those who refused them and accepted a safer alternate therapy.
Do you know why they ask if a patient has EVER had a blood transfusion on their hospital admission form?
They know, but they are not telling the patient.
No, not really. No one tells the 'die-hards' in the medical profession what to do......we saw that in the early days of last century when washing your hands between patients was not seen as being of any benefit. We have encountered those 'die-hards', and they are tough nuts to crack...its a pride thing usually.....they don't really want to admit that the therapies that they have used for years were actually, in many cases, putting patients lives at risk. Doctors can bury their mistakes you know.....many were not aware of the dangers until JW patients showed them how successful non-blood therapies proved to be. It saved them pots of money to have patients recover quickly and leave hospital only a few days after surgery with no complications. Why do you think they have hospitals dedicated to non-blood therapies?
Yes, the sacrifices, which were not empty rituals.....blood atoned for sin.
So, it was not just the health aspects, but it was the sanctity of blood itself as the very symbol of life, that was reflected in the blood sacrifices that were offered as part of God's law.
When an animal was slaughtered for food, its blood was to be poured out on the ground...its life was returned symbolically to its Maker. Respect for life was behind that.
Really? Experience has demonstrated that blood is not a necessary part of medicine. If you watched the video you would have seen the scan of the patient suffering severe blood loss, both before a transfusion, and after one. In the first instance, a saline volume expander was used to facilitate blood flow and circulate what little red cells this patient had left. But after a blood transfusion, red cell circulation was severely compromised. If you think blood is good medicine then I suggest you do some more research. Informed doctors have already made big changes.
Medically speaking what you are suggesting is nonsense. Transfusions were overused because doctors were convinced that it was best practice......but once it was proven NOT to be best practice, the multi-million dollar blood industry wasn't going to give up that cash cow voluntarily. They made sure that the medical profession still supported them. Please research how much a unit of blood is worth administered in a hospital. This industry is not going down without a whimper.
"If used incorrectly"? If you listen to the experts in the field...transfusions are not really needed at all. There is more "morbidity" (complications) and "mortality" (death) from transfusions than in any other medical procedure.
Perhaps you missed that bit....? JW's have proven that blood is not good medicine.
It is not just "food guidelines". For Christians who were of Jewish heritage, God's law on blood was already well established, but when Gentiles began to come to Christ, they had no such laws. Consumption of blood as food was common. Eating animals that were not properly bled was not seen as something bad. But all that had to change now. Those things were right up there with sexual immorality, which among the gentiles was no big deal either, but these laws on blood also carried the death penalty in Israel. If you put it in context, it had to become a big deal for anyone who wanted to be a Christian.
God's law on blood (any kind of blood) was restated three times in three different eras of Bible history. If you think it doesn't matter, then that is up to you. I believe it matters to God. Those who flout his laws will not fare well.
Well, back then, who were the everyday Christians to listen to?
Acts of the Apostles 2:42 tells us. The Apostles would've been a central body, unified in teaching.
Tiberius
Well-Known Member
It's not correct.
This sort of thing doesn't happen with evolution, or relativity, electrical theory, or anything else like that. The fact that it happens with religion is suggests to me that the religion they are describing is not an accurate representation of reality.
Spirit of Light
Be who ever you want
Each person practicing a spiritual teaching will have their own understanding of the scripture, it is the wisdom level that would be different from person to person.
That you find it untrue is up to you
Tiberius
Well-Known Member
Each person practicing a spiritual teaching will have their own understanding of the scripture, it is the wisdom level that would be different from person to person.
That you find it untrue is up to you
With things that we know are objectively true - such as relativity, for example - we do not find this phenomenon. The fact that religion seems to be a special case indicates to me that it is not true.
Spirit of Light
Be who ever you want
Because it is outside of what science can prove?
Tiberius
Well-Known Member
That doesn't explain how something that is objectively true can be different for different people.
Can you show me anything at all that is like that?