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God And Homosexuality
- Thread starter Skwim
- Start date
Thanks for rating my post KenS.
PureX
Veteran Member
You don't know what the purpose of sexuality is. You just presume that you do. In both humans and many animals sexuality is as much for the purpose of establishing and maintaining pair-bonding as it is for procreation. But you blindly ignore this purpose, and presume that the purpose of sexuality must only be procreation.
PureX
Veteran Member
Jesus was a Jew, speaking and preaching to other Jews of his time. So of course he spoke of scripture as a Jew, would. But Jews both then and now have never believed that non-Jews needed nor should convert to Judaism to be right with God, nor that non-Jews needed nor should follow Jewish religious laws, rituals, or proscriptions. So Jesus was NOT TALKING TO MODERN DAY CHRISTIANS when he was admonishing those Jews in his own time and place to maintain their Judaic religiosity.
JesusKnowsYou
Active Member
I believe I understand the point you are trying to make - but I do not believe these verses support your conclusion.
First off let me explain that I was claiming that we are all the spirit children of God.
It is my belief that before we came to Earth we existed and lived with God as His spirit children (Acts 17:28, Hebrews 12:9).
That God knew us before we were formed in the womb (Jeremiah 1:4-5) and we were "chosen" before the "foundation of the world" (Ephesians 1:3-4) and that we sang and rejoiced when the foundations of the Earth were laid (Job 38:7).
Our spirits will return to God upon death (Ecclesiastes 12:7).
Now in Romans 9 - Paul was discussing the doctrine of election - or fore-ordination - and how Israel had been foreordained - through "adoption" - to receive "the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises" (Romans 9:4)
Yet - he says that - "they are not all Israel, which are of Israel" (Romans 9:6).
Then to what you had quoted - even though Ishmael was the firstborn child of Abraham - Isaac was the recognized seed.
Even though Ishmael was just as much the child of Abraham as Isaac - the promises were made to Issac and his seed.
Why was this?
Paul already explained this in the previous chapter,
"For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together." (Romans 8:14-17)
So - the reason that not all of Israel is considered to be Israel is because it is faith - or being led by the Spirit of God - that leads to the adoption.
Even though the entirety of Israel may have been elected or "chosen" or "foreordained" to receive certain things - if they do not have faith they are not recognized.
Just as Ishmael is still the child of Abraham - but he is not the recognized seed of the promise.
Paul goes on to say in Romans 9 that even the Gentiles can be considered the "children of the living God" - even though they are not been elected or foreordained -
"Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.
And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God." (Romans 9:24-26)
"What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.
But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;" (Romans 9:30-32)
Basically - Paul was claiming that being born into the House of Israel did not guarantee recognition or adoption - but it is by faith that those on Earth are recognized as God's children.
However- it is important to note - Ishmael (those without faith) is still the child of Abraham (God) even though the promises were given to Isaac (the faithful) who was the recognized seed of Abraham (God).
God is the father of us all - faithful and faithless - but He will only recognize those that live according to His will through their faith.
The faithless have no promise.
Tazarah
Well-Known Member
You're basically claiming that you can be a "christian" without following any of the teachings of Christ. One of the most ridiculous things I've ever heard.
Tazarah
Well-Known Member
"Spirit children"? ... no such thing.
This simply means that not all of Israel will receive the promises.
In Romans 9:3-4 Paul makes it clear that the covenants, promises, adoption, glory, services of God, etc., all belong to Israel.
The "gentiles" that Paul was making reference to were the Israelite foreigners who were scattered and living amongst the gentiles. They were separated from their Israelite heritage.
ROMANS 9:24
"24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?"
Let's see who he is talking about.
ROMANS 9:25-26
"25 As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.
26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God."
- Now these "gentiles" Paul is referring to are mentioned in Hosea 1:10-11 (Paul says "Osee" in Romans 9:25, which means Hosea) and these gentiles are identified as the "Children of Israel".
HOSEA 1:10-11
"10 Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people, there it shall be said unto them, Ye are the sons of the living God.
11 Then shall the children of Judah and the children of Israel be gathered together, and appoint themselves one head, and they shall come up out of the land: for great shall be the day of Jezreel."
So we can clearly see that Paul referred to these Israelites "Gentiles". Paul in Romans 9:26 and Hosea in Hosea 1:10 are speaking about the same exact people.
PureX
Veteran Member
No, I'm not claiming that. I am saying the Jesus was a Jew preaching to other Jews. He was not preaching to you and I. So his message to US in not to think and behave like ancient Jews. Nor was his message to his fellow Jews to ONLY think and behave like ancient Jews. His message, whether Jew or non-Jew, was that the spirit of God is available to all of us, and that if we will allow ourselves to embody that spirit within us it will heal us and save us from ourselves. And that spirit is the spirit of love, forgiveness, kindness and generosity. This was not a "Jewish religious" message. And it did not require anyone to be Jewish to recognize or understand it. Nor to accept and practice it.
Or maybe people prefer to do research and place things in their proper context. Honestly, posts like this are why LGBT people either start their own churches or dump Christianity all together. There's almost no LGBT person from a Christian society who hasn't been negatively affected by it in some way. Self-hatred is a terrible thing that destroys lives.
Tazarah
Well-Known Member
1. You don't know who or what I am.
2. I understand what you are saying now. It's interesting to see somebody who actually understands the fact that Christ's ministry was for the Jews.
Tazarah
Well-Known Member
What is there to research? The scriptures clearly say what they say. Then when people point out the fact that the scriptures condemn those who practice homosexuality, all of a sudden we're the bad guys.
PureX
Veteran Member
The important point to understand is that Jews both then and now have never believed that non-Jews needed to become Jews, or to follow Jewish beliefs and religious proscriptions to achieve alignment with God. So when modern Christians keep telling us that Jesus was telling us to follow and obey the ancient Jewish texts, and rituals, and rules, and ideology, they are just throwing up religious impediments and requirements that Jesus himself would not have expected us to follow.
Tazarah
Well-Known Member
So when 1 Corinthians 6:9 says that homosexuals will not enter into the kingdom of Heaven, it's only speaking about homosexual Jews?
There's a lot to research. Consider that ancient cultures had no concept of sexual orientation as we do today. The word "homosexuality" didn't exist until about the late 19th century. The actual Hebrew in Leviticus that people like to throw around isn't that clear upon translation. It ends up being something like "men who lie in a women's bed" word for word. It doesn't translate very well. Then in Romans 1, Paul uses a word that he has made up that has been translated a number of different ways and no one knows exactly what he meant.
What seems clear to me when it comes to early Christianity is that they were an apocalyptic sect awaiting the end of the world and were heavily focused on asceticism. That means that hetero marriage and having kids weren't viewed highly, either. Monks and nuns in monasteries would've been the most lauded lifestyle for a Christian, and still is in the more ancient forms of Christianity such as Greek Orthodoxy. It's interesting that the Ethiopian eunuch in Acts is regarded as one of the earliest Gentile converts. Christianity was originally a haven for the social outcasts. Eunuchs were actually a sort of third gender category in the ancient Middle East and Mediterranean cultures, like the hijra in Indian culture. It included what we would now view as straight trans women and feminine gay men. The one thing all eunuchs had in common is that they were not attracted to women and tended to be more feminine. For example, the galli priesthood of the goddess Cybele in ancient Greco-Roman culture were eunuchs and they lived and presented as women after they were castrated. Today, they would be recognized as trans women. It was only as the centuries passed and Christianity became the social norm that they relaxed their opposition to marriage and started viewing it as sacred. You find nothing at all of that in the Gospels or Paul's writing, however. They were not "family values" conservatives.
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Tazarah
Well-Known Member
Here is the ancient greek text for 1 Corinthians 6:9 which says that homosexuals will not enter into the kingdom of Heaven.
6:9 ἢ οὐκ οἴδατε ὅτι ἄδικοι βασιλείαν θεοῦοὐ κληρονομήσουσιν; μὴ πλανᾶσθε· οὔτεπόρνοι οὔτε εἰδωλολάτραι οὔτε μοιχοὶοὔτε μαλακοὶ οὔτε ἀρσενοκοῖται
1 CORINTHIANS 6:9
"9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,"
Yes, and that is the verse I was thinking of that uses "arsenokoites" ("ἀρσενοκοῖται"), which is a term that Paul made up and where the "nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind" part comes from that has been translated a variety of ways. It's been translated to refer to pederasts who have sex with boy prostitutes, which is likely closer to its original meaning. The Bible has nothing to say about gay couples in committed, equal relationships because that concept wasn't really known in that culture.
Even in ancient Greco-Roman culture, you were still expected to marry the opposite sex and have children. What affairs the man, specifically, had outside of that was kind of his own business, barring that he didn't take the penetrative role (be the "bottom") as that was viewed as unmanly. So people like the Emperor Hadrian had their wife but had their beloved male lovers on the side that they took the role of the penetrator with and that was fine. But it was only socially acceptable in a narrow way. There was no free for all.
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JesusKnowsYou
Active Member
You chose to ignore all of the Biblical references I shared?
I referenced Hebrews 12:9 - but how do you explain hese verses?
"For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye ********, and not sons.
Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?
For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness." (Hebrews 12:6-10)
These verses are relevant to our discussion about Romans 9.
Paul is discussing the difference between those who God considers "********" and "sons" - all of which are still children of the "Father of spirits".
All of Israel are the children of God - but those who are faithful are considered "sons" while the others are considered "********".
All are still the children of God. We are all of us the spirit children of the Father.
But why won't all of Israel receive these things?
Because they act in the manner of "********" - not legitimate sons.
Either way -"*******" or "son" - they are all still the spirit children of the Father.
Adoption belongs to the faithful - not just Israel.
You ignored the verses from Romans 8 I quoted for you,
"For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together." (Romans 8:14-17)
Those who have faith in the Lord Jesus Chrsit are adopted into the House of Israel and become Abraham's seed.
"For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
And if ye be Christ’s, then are ye Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise." (Galatians 3:26-29)
That is one interpretation - but weren't the words of Hosea fulfilled when the Jews returned after their Exile?
If the Jews did not consider Samaritans to be Israelites - I don't think they would refer to Gentiles as Israelites.
I do agree that many of these Gentiles may have descended from Israel - but it is clear from all the other verses I have quoted that "adoption" does not belong to Israel and that it is faith in the Lord Jesus Christ that can cause someone to inherit the promises made to Abraham and his seed.
All the covenants, promises, glory, and services of God belong to Israel - but anyone can be adopted into Israel.
Either way - Israelite or Gentile - God is the father of their spirits.
Tazarah
Well-Known Member
The lengths that people will go in order to twist the bible so that they can indulge in sinful behavior is amazing.
Tazarah
Well-Known Member
I would address all of the points you've made concerning the idea that non-Israelites can somehow take part in the covenants of Israel (which completely contradicts the bible when you examine it in it's entirety), but there's no need to. All I have to do is ask you to take a look at future Kingdom prophecies, like Isaiah 60:11-12 for example -- which says that in the Kingdom, the gentiles will be forced to serve Israel or be completely destroyed.
Then, we come to a point where we realize that there is only one out of two possible explanations:
a) the bible is contradicting itself.
or
b) the "gentiles" in the NT are not actual heathen, non-Israelite gentiles -- but they are Israelite foreigners who have lost their way and have been separated from their Israelite heritage as I have already explained.
If actual non-Israelite gentiles are able to partake in the covenants of Israel then why do prophecies like Isaiah 60:11-12 (there are many more which say this) say that the gentiles will either serve Israel in the Kingdom or be destroyed?
PureX
Veteran Member
Jesus did not write Corinthians, and the MAN who did was expressing the same tired prejudice and ignorance that we see expressed every day even in our own time. Also, that MAN that wrote to the Corinthians never met Jesus nor ever heard him speak. So he had no idea what Jesus would have actually said. Even the gospels were written between 75 and 200 years after the events they supposedly portray. Plenty of time for the stories to become mythologized.