The changing demographics of Christianity in recent times - What does it all really mean?

Dawnofhope · May 12, 2020

Sirona said:
I'm no expert in American history, but didn't the whole East Asian religions / New Age / hippie dippie thing originate or begin to prosper in the U.S. ?

These were all important aspects of American culture from the 1960s. There was a lot going on with the Vietnam war and challenging conservative culture. There was more experimentation in the arts, sexual behaviours and with drug use. There was definitely an interest in Asian religions. It wasn't a uniquely American phenomenon as I understand it. I'm not certain about the origins and don't claim to have anymore expertise than anyone else. Its useful in a thread like this to consider different narratives and theories as to the huge shift we are seeing in religious affiliation. Thank for dropping by.

9-10ths_Penguin · May 12, 2020

blü 2 said:
I can only speculate too.

But it may start with the end of WW2, the coming of the pill and women's lib (from the 1950s) and the growth of challenge to male authority, the rise of TV making the home the center of entertainment, the coming of instant communications (cell-phone, net, cameras) speeding the collapse of the old centers of social authority (the press, churches, politicians), the churches' three-decades-long harakiri as they failed and failed and failed to face up to child abuse; and the rise of education and a worldview based on scientific expectation and understanding have all been involved.

I don't think any of that is new, but it's how it looks to me.

I also wonder how much auto-centric urban planning has played a role in the decline of "mainstream" religions. That's the other huge factor that affects the time period you're describing.

I mean, imagine that you could go back in time and ask adults in each decade whether they go to the same church as their parents; I'd bet good money that there would be a sharp increase in the "no" percentage starting in the 50s and continually increasing to today, closely following the trend of young families migrating to the suburbs.

I think that's the tipping point: suddenly, there's much less familial pressure to continue on the same religious path as your parents.

At first, this change manifested as going to a more convenient church of the same denomination. Over time, it allowed people to choose different but similar denominations (e.g. "brand switching" within Protestant denominations) or churches that held more appeal (e.g. ones with pastors who were better speakers, or churches with nicer architecture or ample parking). These days, it's reached the point where families are choosing completely different religions or no religion at all.

IOW, I see the convert-led growth of religions like the Baha'i faith and the growth of the "nones" to be both aspects of the same trend. I also think that the decline of traditional neighbourhood churches has been driven by many of the same factors as the decline of "main street" shopping districts.

9-10ths_Penguin · May 12, 2020

adrian009 said:
I’ve never formally studied philosophy but enjoy reading about the lives of anyone of influence. Your point about Nietzsche is well taken. Regardless of the origins, the idea that religion would inevitably die out was common place in the nineteenth century as it is now. It clearly hasn’t come to pass and is unlikely to anytime soon, if ever.

Yes, but only because religion has adapted.

The religion of Nietzsche's time - the monolithic institution that was propped up by the state and was considered part of the national identity - did largely die out. It's just been replaced by something else that we now apply the old word to.

blü 2 · May 12, 2020

9-10ths_Penguin said:
I think that's the tipping point: suddenly, there's much less familial pressure to continue on the same religious path as your parents.

Good point, and the attitude as well as the factors are inheritable.

9-10ths_Penguin said:
IOW, I see the convert-led growth of religions like the Baha'i faith and the growth of the "nones" to be both aspects of the same trend. I also think that the decline of traditional neighbourhood churches has been driven by many of the same factors as the decline of "main street" shopping districts.

As is often observed, the evangelical religions seem to be surviving best, apparently because they know how to put on a show. It's the 'traditional' churches, including my own childhood Piscos, who are showing the most wear and tear.

1213 · May 12, 2020

adrian009 said:
...So to what extent does the changing demographic reflect the actual message of Christianity and its ability to adapt to modernity? What sociological factors are at work that Christianity has no control over?...

I think this development has nothing to do with the ability to adapt. And actually, if they try to adapt, it only makes things worse. Jesus said:

How narrow is the gate, and restricted is the way that leads to life! Few are those who find it.
Matt. 7:14

The message of Jesus is just something that many don’t like and that is why many reject it.
Nowadays it is just easier to show that one has rejected it, because there is not much pressure to act like one would still be a disciple of Jesus (“Christian”). But in the case of the Church it is not so much about that, because they have basically rejected Jesus and his teachings and replaced them with their own doctrines.

Dawnofhope · May 12, 2020

9-10ths_Penguin said:
Yes, but only because religion has adapted.

The religion of Nietzsche's time - the monolithic institution that was propped up by the state and was considered part of the national identity - did largely die out. It's just been replaced by something else that we now apply the old word to.

The process of the separation of church and state was well advanced before Nietzsche major contributions to philosophy. The Catholic Church had already lost much of its temporal power. The influence of modernity and secular humanism was well advanced. It was in response to these changes we saw the advent of the types of Christian fundamentalism we have today. Some parts of the Christian Church did modernise though. The major change for the Catholic Church appears to have been through the second Vatican Council in the early 60s as a result of the need for reform after the Jewish holocaust through WWl.

However the nineteenth century world that was largely dominated by European empires stretched across the globe had largely ended after WWll. These Empires did have close affiliations with the institutions of the Church. So in that sense I agree.

Dawnofhope · May 12, 2020

1213 said:
I think this development has nothing to do with the ability to adapt. And actually, if they try to adapt, it only makes things worse. Jesus said:

How narrow is the gate, and restricted is the way that leads to life! Few are those who find it.
Matt. 7:14

The message of Jesus is just something that many don’t like and that is why many reject it.
Nowadays it is just easier to show that one has rejected it, because there is not much pressure to act like one would still be a disciple of Jesus (“Christian”). But in the case of the Church it is not so much about that, because they have basically rejected Jesus and his teachings and replaced them with their own doctrines.

The laws of government in both the USA and NZ are very much secular and not based on any Christian theology. Attempts to reverse that trend in both countries have not gone well for promotion of Christian values. In NZ Political parties that have run on a Christian platform have imploded due to corruption and lack of support. The Christian right’s support of the current American regime in order to secure gains against the abortion legislation are an interesting development in recent times. History will judge the wisdom or otherwise of this approach.

The Kilted Heathen · May 12, 2020

adrian009 said:
OTOH those who identify with no religion have risen from 42% to 49%.

Well, with the ending of the Age of Christ, this poor representation needs to change. Quite often this "no religion" is really just "none of the major accepted religions," and leaves out quite a few.

Dawnofhope · May 13, 2020

The Ragin Pagan said:
Well, with the ending of the Age of Christ, this poor representation needs to change. Quite often this "no religion" is really just "none of the major accepted religions," and leaves out quite a few.

The question in the 2018 census was asked in an open ended manner. Participants were asked to indicate their religion in a blank space and given ample room to describe their faith. Check out page 71.

https://www.stats.govt.nz/assets/Reports/2018-census-design-of-forms/2018-Census-Design-of-forms.pdf

For more detailed results check out:

Religion in New Zealand - Wikipedia

CG Didymus · May 13, 2020

Sirona said:
I'm no expert in American history, but didn't the whole East Asian religions / New Age / hippie dippie thing originate or begin to prosper in the U.S. ?

adrian009 said:
These were all important aspects of American culture from the 1960s. There was a lot going on with the Vietnam war and challenging conservative culture. There was more experimentation in the arts, sexual behaviours and with drug use. There was definitely an interest in Asian religions. It wasn't a uniquely American phenomenon as I understand it. I'm not certain about the origins and don't claim to have anymore expertise than anyone else. Its useful in a thread like this to consider different narratives and theories as to the huge shift we are seeing in religious affiliation.

That was my ggggeneration. In the late 50's, all I cared about on the weekends was cartoons on Saturday morning and playing baseball (actually it was a rubber ball) on the street with neighborhood kids. Then come Sunday most all the kids went with their parents to different churches. None of us liked it. And those that did were goodie goodie kids who liked school and obeyed their parents.

This was Southern California. In the early 60's we all became surfers. No drugs yet, but a little bit of alcohol and surfer chicks... and we still hated school and all of us quit going to church with are parents... and they didn't care. Then, in the late 60's, LSD and pot came along. We were all into rock and roll. Listening to St. Pepper and The Doors and Jimi Hendrix. Those were our "Gods." But, we were 18 and "The Man" wanted us to go off to fight in Vietnam? "Where?" We asked. "Why?" We asked. "The Man" was everywhere. It was the police, the government. our parents, and the church. The church... all those people sitting there on Sunday acting so holy. Then the rest of the week, religion didn't matter.

Some hippies found religion. But it wasn't like church. It was deep stuff. Inner stuff. Like becoming one with nature and the universe kind of stuff. Lot of the ideas came from the Eastern religions. Man, it was far out, dude. (Yes, we really talked like that). I was with some spiritual hippies on Mt. Shasta chanting Aum and something they called "The Great Invocation." From there I stayed a couple of months at a Yoga commune in the foothills of the Sierra Nevada's. Then, winter was coming, so I went back to Southern California. That's when I met some Baha'is. It was great. They were into peace and love and all those cool things about religion. Then, a couple of years later, a friend "found" Jesus.

Ends up, some of these hippies had turned Christian. They were playing Christian rock songs and praying... I mean really praying. They were swaying back and forth with eyes closed and their arms lifted up. They were genuine. I had never seen "genuine" in Christian people before.

So yes, hippie dippies were an important part of what happened in the 60's. Only thing is... once the threat of being drafted went away, so did the urgency to find an alternative to war. Also, "genuine" is hard to maintain. The "first love" wears down into sitting in church on Sunday, going to work and raising a family and becoming all those things we hated.

9-10ths_Penguin · May 13, 2020

adrian009 said:
The process of the separation of church and state was well advanced before Nietzsche major contributions to philosophy. The Catholic Church had already lost much of its temporal power. The influence of modernity and secular humanism was well advanced.

That's right. That's what I'm saying.

It was in response to these changes we saw the advent of the types of Christian fundamentalism we have today.

Yes... in the Third Great Awakening, which was only really building up steam in America when "The Gay Science" was published in 1882 and hadn't had a significant impact on the religion of the Europe that Nietzsche was living in.

Some parts of the Christian Church did modernise though. The major change for the Catholic Church appears to have been through the second Vatican Council in the early 60s as a result of the need for reform after the Jewish holocaust through WWl.

Again: that's what I'm saying. Nietzsche saw the trendline of what was happening to the churches around him. What he may have failed to anticipate were the changes as radical as the Christian Fundamentalist movement (~30 years after he first published the term "God is dead") or
Vatican II (~80 years after).

... but think about the changes that Nietzsche lived through: the revolutions of 1848 eliminated the "divine right of kings" in many European countries - including Neitzsche's own Saxony - and replaced it with people's constitutions. The Papal States disappeared in 1870. "God" shrunk from a major political force to a matter of personal belief.

However the nineteenth century world that was largely dominated by European empires stretched across the globe had largely ended after WWll. These Empires did have close affiliations with the institutions of the Church. So in that sense I agree.

Right: we went from the global dominance of Europe to the global dominance of the US.

... and the US didn't just export blue jeans, rock & roll, and agricultural practices; it also exported the idea of religious pluralism.

The US was and is heavily religious, but even when it was predominantly Christian, it still had diversity within Christianity. This meant that no one Christian denomination had special access to power, which was quite a change from the standard European approach of official state churches.

Sandra Jayne · May 13, 2020

adrian009 said:
The Christian Church is facing an unprecedented crisis in New Zealand with rapidly dwindling numbers. Our last census recorded a rapid decline of those who identify as Christian from 48% of our population to 37% in just over 5 years. OTOH those who identify with no religion have risen from 42% to 49%.

'No religion' overtakes Christianity in latest Census results

This is a dramatic change in a very short period of time but one that was been accelerating over the last few decades.

In the USA the numbers of those who identify as Christian is much higher but there is still a rapid decline as a recent survey in Pew highlights.

In U.S., Decline of Christianity Continues at Rapid Pace

The trend is likely to continue as there are much higher rates of affiliation with Christianity in the Baby boomer generation and beyond compared to the younger generations such as the millennials.

So in considering these ‘facts’, there has been a great deal of discussion and speculation about ‘why’ this demographic shift is happening. On one end of the spectrum we have atheists gleefully predicting the end of Christianity. OTOH many theists remind us of the repeated failure of such predictions that hark back to modernist views through the so called enlightenment age of eighteenth century Europe.

So to what extent does the changing demographic reflect the actual message of Christianity and its ability to adapt to modernity? What sociological factors are at work that Christianity has no control over?

I could speculate along with all the other commentators but I’m interested to hear what others have to say. Thanks for dropping by if you’ve made it this far.

Sandra Jayne · May 13, 2020

I think one of the reasons for a decline particularly in 'Western' societies is because children are not being told anything about God. Two of my daughter's are atheists and they have children, they tell me that they must make their own choice as to whether or not to believe in God. However, whilst they teach them about dinosaurs and evolution they tell them nothing about the possibility of a creator so how can they ever make a choice.

It really brought it home to me a couple of months ago when I was babysitting my 4yr old granddaughter, we were watching a film and at one point people were singing in church and she wanted to know what they were doing.
She asked me "what is a church", "who is God?" says it all.

Dawnofhope · May 13, 2020

Sandra Jayne said:
I think one of the reasons for a decline particularly in 'Western' societies is because children are not being told anything about God. Two of my daughter's are atheists and they have children, they tell me that they must make their own choice as to whether or not to believe in God. However, whilst they teach them about dinosaurs and evolution they tell them nothing about the possibility of a creator so how can they ever make a choice.

It really brought it home to me a couple of months ago when I was babysitting my 4yr old granddaughter, we were watching a film and at one point people were singing in church and she wanted to know what they were doing.
She asked me "what is a church", "who is God?" says it all.

Hey Sandra,

What you describe is certainly the reality for many young people in New Zealand where the rates of Christianity would now be about 35% of the population and diminishing rapidly. Of that number many are nominal Christians so attendance at church and involving their children in Bible study classes may not be a priority. About 8% of our population will be members of another religious faith such as Islam, Hinduism or Buddhism. We would now have over 50% of our population that identifies with no religion at all.

The result of these demographics is a population who are increasingly illiterate when it comes to religion and the nature of spirituality in day to day life. It is hard to clearly assess the positives and negatives of such a change. Of those who see the necessity of a spiritual dimension to life, I would wonder about how today's existential void is contributing to rates of mental ill, addictions, involvement with the criminal justice system and general disengagement and disillusionment with the wider community and the state of the world.

To reverse the tide, I don't believe rehashing the Christian fundamentals is the answer but enabling conversations that explore spirituality is a much broader, inclusive manner.

Sandra Jayne · May 13, 2020

adrian009 said:
Hey Sandra,

What you describe is certainly the reality for many young people in New Zealand where the rates of Christianity would now be about 35% of the population and diminishing rapidly. Of that number many are nominal Christians so attendance at church and involving their children in Bible study classes may not be a priority. About 8% of our population will be members of another religious faith such as Islam, Hinduism or Buddhism. We would now have over 50% of our population that identifies with no religion at all.

The result of these demographics is a population who are increasingly illiterate when it comes to religion and the nature of spirituality in day to day life. It is hard to clearly assess the positives and negatives of such a change. Of those who see the necessity of a spiritual dimension to life, I would wonder about how today's existential void is contributing to rates of mental ill, addictions, involvement with the criminal justice system and general disengagement and disillusionment with the wider community and the state of the world.

To reverse the tide, I don't believe rehashing the Christian fundamentals is the answer but enabling conversations that explore spirituality is a much broader, inclusive manner.

I find it interesting that although church numbers are decreasing many people still seem to have a spiritual need. Friends and colleagues are often scathing about mainstream religions and yet some still believe in existence of some kind after death.

One group of people whose numbers are increasing are Jehovah’s Witnesses. Over 20 million attended their memorial service in 2019. Even more impressive is their adherence to scripture. It must be so difficult to knock doors and talk about God.

I have a daughter who lives in New Zealand, have been there once a year for the last six years.

The Kilted Heathen · May 13, 2020

adrian009 said:
The question in the 2018 census was asked in an open ended manner. Participants were asked to indicate their religion in a blank space and given ample room to describe their faith.

Then I really question census measures, both in New Zealand and here in America. And likely elsewhere in the world too. There's an "Other Religion" and a "Unaffiliated", and yet I know for a fact that there are Pagans both in America and New Zealand. Where's their representation? Erased and hid as either "other" or "no religion".

amorphous_constellation · May 13, 2020

Sandra Jayne said:
they tell me that they must make their own choice as to whether or not to believe in God.

Considering how complicated the topics of religion and god are, don't you think that maybe it's a good thing? This religion business is not a simple thing.. If they are 'told' about it before they can do some comparative analysis about with it, then won't they be taken aback when one day they see just how many approaches there are to the concept? Are they expected to then shell up with whatever original belief they were told as a child?

Sandra Jayne said:
I find it interesting that although church numbers are decreasing many people still seem to have a spiritual need.

It wasn't a problem for the past several hundred thousand years before the church and contemporary religion, for most of those people would have had strong senses of spirituality. What they will return to, is a naturally more non-consolidated form of animism. There is no reason why they won't naturally head in that direction. When no one is telling you what is specifically holy, many things will once more become holy. It was merely a general sense of openendedness that was agitated, that future generations will discover as they continue to lack theological resistance to that kind of thinking.

Dawnofhope · May 13, 2020

Sandra Jayne said:
I find it interesting that although church numbers are decreasing many people still seem to have a spiritual need. Friends and colleagues are often scathing about mainstream religions and yet some still believe in existence of some kind after death.

One group of people whose numbers are increasing are Jehovah’s Witnesses. Over 20 million attended their memorial service in 2019. Even more impressive is their adherence to scripture. It must be so difficult to knock doors and talk about God.

I have a daughter who lives in New Zealand, have been there once a year for the last six years.

From a New Zealand perspective one of the most comprehensive studies about religion in recent times was commissioned by the Wilberforce Foundation 2018.

Faith and Belief in New Zealand

It is from a Christian perspective and seeks to better understand the religious and spirituality landscape in New Zealand. Its analysis and conclusions are useful to gain some insight about peoples interest and receptivity to spirituality.

From the executive summary:

New Zealand is becoming an increasingly secular nation.

More than half of Kiwis (55%) do not identify with any main religion. One in five have spiritual beliefs (20%) whilst more than one in three (35%) do not identify with any religion or spiritual belief. A third of Kiwis (33%) identify with Christianity (either Protestant or Catholic), whilst another 6% identify with other major religions. These results show that New Zealand is a largely secular nation.

This secularisation has been steadily increasing over the last decade or so. In the 2006 Census, half of New Zealand’s population (49%) identified as Christian, and three in ten (31%) identified as non-religious. Seven years later, in the 2013 Census, the proportion of Christians had dropped to 43% whilst those identifying as non-religious had increased to almost two in five (38%).

Further research is needed, however it is possible New Zealand’s youth as a nation and resulting lack of a religious tradition is one influencing factor in this move away from religion. Perhaps the increasing busyness of modern day life, or the emphasis on individualism and self-created identity have also had an impact.

Despite increasing secularisation, Kiwis remain open to exploring religion and spirituality.

Given the right circumstances and evidence, just over one in ten Kiwis (12%) would be very open (significantly/extremely) to changing their religious views. A further two in five (42%) suggest they are somewhat or slightly open to exploring other religious views.

Kiwis are most likely to be attracted to exploring religion and spirituality further by seeing first hand people who live out a genuine faith. Three in five (59%) suggest this would either somewhat or strongly attract them to investigating religion and spirituality further. For many Kiwis, conversations with people (27%) have been the main catalyst for thinking about spiritual, religious or metaphysical things.

Kiwis believe spirituality is important for individual wellbeing, but also suggest it has played a part in shaping national values.

Almost half of Kiwis feel that spirituality is extremely or very important for their overall wellbeing (46%) and mental health (47%). The younger generations particularly recognise the importance of spirituality in their lives, with half of those in Generations Y and Z believing spirituality is extremely or very important for their overall wellbeing (50% Gen Y, 51% Gen Z) and mental health (52% Gen Y, 52% Gen Z).

Kiwis also feel that spirituality, specifically Māori understanding of spirituality, has contributed to the values commonly held in New Zealand today. Three in five Kiwis (61%) believe (yes, definitely/somewhat) that Māori culture and understanding of spirituality has influenced values and beliefs in New Zealand’s society. This influence is seen to be most apparent in the acknowledgment of sacred places (73%), the importance of extended family (69%) and respect for elders (68%).

Kiwis are open to discussing spirituality and religion, as long as all parties involved are treated with respect.

More than half of Kiwis (59%, often/occasionally) talk about spirituality or Faith and Belief in New Zealand religion when they gather with friends. One in ten (11%) do this often, whilst 48% talk about spirituality or religion occasionally. Although different spaces in society are deemed to be either appropriate (e.g. churches) or inappropriate (e.g. shopping centres), Kiwis generally feel that the relational context determines the appropriateness of discussion about spirituality and religion.

This perspective applies to the discussion of spirituality and religion in state schools. More than half of Kiwis are open (very/somewhat) to the discussion of spirituality and religion in this context (55%) but would prefer sessions that teach children about many different religions. The main benefit of religious instruction in state schools, according to Kiwis, is the ability for children to explore the concept of religion (45%). The main challenge is that it currently only explores Christianity and not other religions (48%).

Whilst Kiwis recognise some of the positive influences of Christianity in New Zealand, there are significant blockers which negatively influence common perceptions.

One in four Kiwis (26%) are warm towards Christianity, indicating they believe much of the religion but still struggle with doubts or concerns. Three in ten (31%), however, are cold towards Christianity suggesting they have significant issues and do not believe in it. An individual’s attitude towards Christianity is most likely to be shaped by their parents and family (57%).

Kiwis recognise some of the positive influences of Christianity in New Zealand’s history, including helping those in need and establishing community initiatives to better society. There are, however, significant belief blockers which repel Kiwis from investigating Christianity further. The main blocker (completely/significantly block) to Kiwis engaging with Christianity is the Church’s stance and teaching on homosexuality (47%). Almost as many are influenced by the idea that a loving God would allow people to go to hell (45%).

When it comes to people’s perceptions of Christians and Christianity, Church abuse has the greatest negative influence (76% massive/significant negative influence). Christians not practicing what they preach is second to church abuse, with almost seven in ten Kiwis (69%) indicating this has a massive or significant negative influence on their opinion.

Dawnofhope · May 13, 2020

The Ragin Pagan said:
Then I really question census measures, both in New Zealand and here in America. And likely elsewhere in the world too. There's an "Other Religion" and a "Unaffiliated", and yet I know for a fact that there are Pagans both in America and New Zealand. Where's their representation? Erased and hid as either "other" or "no religion".

I suspect you may have a point. Many censuses are not so good when it comes to recognising less recognised religions such as paganism and perhaps those collating the data struggle to make sense of some of the responses. I suspect paganism is on the rise. In New Zealand 16% of our population are indigenous Maori and many strongly identify with their traditional beliefs which could reasonably be considered pagan. Do you know of any more reliable objective measures that would give a better picture of the true status of pagan religions?

The Kilted Heathen · May 13, 2020

adrian009 said:
Do you know of any more reliable objective measures that would give a better picture of the true status of pagan religions?

Until governments start asking on their census, and people have the confidence that they'll be safe in answering, there is none. Hell, here in America they don't even ask what religion people are on the census anymore, and instead the US Census Bureau just goes straight to the churches to get numbers, and everything else is "no religion".

The changing demographics of Christianity in recent times - What does it all really mean?

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i

1/10 Subway Stalinist

1/10 Subway Stalinist

Veteran Member

Well-Known Member

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i

Crow FreyjasmaðR

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i

Veteran Member

1/10 Subway Stalinist

Member

Member

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i

Member

Crow FreyjasmaðR

Well-Known Member

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i

Crow FreyjasmaðR