Modern Churches not operating gifts of the Spirit.

[QUO
TE="TrueBeliever37, post: 6649996, member: 56659"]The gifts haven't ceased. In the verses you referenced above, it says tongues will cease, not that they have ceased. It also says knowledge will vanish away, but it hasn't yet.

It says we know in part and we prophesy in part. v10 ... then that which is in part will be done away. v12. ...Now I know in part, but then I shall know just as I am also known. Knowledge hasn't been done away with, and neither has prophecy. 1 Corinthians 13:8-10

The gifts are for the perfecting of the saints, and for the edifying of the body (the church) of Messiah, till we reach these things mentioned in verse 13 - which we are still working toward. We haven't been perfected yet. Ephesians 4:11-15[/QUOTE]

"Miraculous" knowledge has ceased.

Can you quote (Mt. Chapter 1) from memory according to (Jn 14:26) and not miss a beat?

(Jn 14:26) - 26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

You could do it if you had the Holy Spirit like the 1st century apostles.

***
(Mt.10:1) says the Lord gave the apostles the power to do miracles. They could exercise that power at will.

1 And when he had called unto him his twelve disciples, he gave them power against unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of sickness and all manner of disease.

(Ac.28:8) says Paul healed a man.

8 And it came to pass, that the father of Publius lay sick of a fever and of a bloody flux: to whom Paul entered in, and prayed, and laid his hands on him, and healed him.

No one is doing this kind of healing today. If they were 20/20 or 60 Minutes would be all over the story.

***

The word "perfect" can mean "complete" (2Tim.3:16,17).

Notice verse16 is speaking about "the scriptures".

Notice verse 17 says - 17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.


There was something lacking in the 1st century. It was the bible. The miracles (gifts) was used to prove the Lord approved of the speaker and the message (Heb.2:3,4) (Mk 16:20).

Till the unity of the faith (Eph.4). That is referring to the completed revelation of the Lord.

Notice what (2Peter 1:3) says -

3 According as his divine power hath given unto us "all things" that pertain unto life and godliness,

The above passage is speaking of the revelation of the Lord. That means the Lord has already said all He is going to says to man. As soon as I hear a preacher say "God spoke to me audibly last night, I know he is lying.

(Rom.2:11) - 11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

God speaks to all men through the bible.

(Jer. 22:29) - O earth, earth, earth, hear the word of the LORD.



Thanks

Nova2216 said:

Bingo, you have the correct answer.

Today we can do a greater work than the Lord. That greater work is to teach a sinner how to be forgiven of his sins and live a holy Lifestyle (AC.2:36-42) (Mark16:15,16) (Mt.28:18-20).

The verse below is not telling people they will be able to do a greater miracle than Jesus did in the first century. The greater work is to teach people about the plan of salvation.

12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; (Jn 14:12)

We could not top healing someone or raising the dead but we can teach someone the truth and show them the way to heaven. Though He paved the way he never converted anyone. That is b/c of what (2Cor.4:7) teaches. Men teach men (2Tim.2:2).

Jesus did not tell Paul what to do to be saved rather he told him where to go and who to listen too. Three days after speaking to Jesus on the road Ananias teaches Paul how to be forgiven for his sins in Damascus (Ac.22:16).

44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. 45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.(Jn 6:44,45)

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But read the part of the verse you didn't highlight also. The part that says "the works that I do shall he do also" and greater works .... John 14:12 So there will also be healing like he did.

Nova2216 said:

"Miraculous" knowledge has ceased.

Can you quote (Mt. Chapter 1) from memory according to (Jn 14:26) and not miss a beat?

(Jn 14:26) - 26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

You could do it if you had the Holy Spirit like the 1st century apostles.

***
(Mt.10:1) says the Lord gave the apostles the power to do miracles. They could exercise that power at will.

1 And when he had called unto him his twelve disciples, he gave them power against unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of sickness and all manner of disease.

(Ac.28:8) says Paul healed a man.

8 And it came to pass, that the father of Publius lay sick of a fever and of a bloody flux: to whom Paul entered in, and prayed, and laid his hands on him, and healed him.

No one is doing this kind of healing today. If they were 20/20 or 60 Minutes would be all over the story.

***

The word "perfect" can mean "complete" (2Tim.3:16,17).

Notice verse16 is speaking about "the scriptures".

Notice verse 17 says - 17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.


There was something lacking in the 1st century. It was the bible. The miracles (gifts) was used to prove the Lord approved of the speaker and the message (Heb.2:3,4) (Mk 16:20).

Till the unity of the faith (Eph.4). That is referring to the completed revelation of the Lord.

Notice what (2Peter 1:3) says -

3 According as his divine power hath given unto us "all things" that pertain unto life and godliness,

The above passage is speaking of the revelation of the Lord. That means the Lord has already said all He is going to says to man. As soon as I hear a preacher say "God spoke to me audibly last night, I know he is lying.

(Rom.2:11) - 11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

God speaks to all men through the bible.

(Jer. 22:29) - O earth, earth, earth, hear the word of the LORD.



Thanks

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Show a verse that says we have to be able to quote like that, and I will work on it. He will help us understand things, and bring things to our memory. He brings scriptures to my mind lots of times. For instance some of the ones below.

I'll put it this way - without his Holy Spirit we are none of his. Romans 8:9

The Holy Spirit is the "earnest" of our inheritance until our redemption. Ephesians 1:13-14, 2 Corinthians 1:22, 2 Corinthians 5:5
Definition of Earnest: - a thing intended or regarded as a sign or promise of what is to come.

Without his Spirit you haven't been born again. And you must be born of the water and of the Spirit to enter into the kingdom of God. John 3:5

And if we have his Spirit dwelling in us, that is what will raise us up with a glorified body when he returns. Romans 8:11

I guess if you are willing to add in extra words, you can make it say what you want. It doesn't say "miraculous" knowledge. To me miraculous will be when we are able to know even as we are known.

And I am not saying God doesn't speak to us through his word. Of course he does. That is how we know right and wrong. That is what tells us how to live our lives. But his Spirit helps us to overcome and crucify our flesh. If you through the Spirit mortify the deeds of the body you shall live. Romans 8:13 How are you going to do that without his Spirit?

TrueBeliever37 said:

Show a verse that says we have to be able to quote like that, and I will work on it. He will help us understand things, and bring things to our memory. He brings scriptures to my mind lots of times. For instance some of the ones below.

I'll put it this way - without his Holy Spirit we are none of his. Romans 8:9

The Holy Spirit is the "earnest" of our inheritance until our redemption. Ephesians 1:13-14, 2 Corinthians 1:22, 2 Corinthians 5:5
Definition of Earnest: - a thing intended or regarded as a sign or promise of what is to come.

Without his Spirit you haven't been born again. And you must be born of the water and of the Spirit to enter into the kingdom of God. John 3:5

And if we have his Spirit dwelling in us, that is what will raise us up with a glorified body when he returns. Romans 8:11

I guess if you are willing to add in extra words, you can make it say what you want. It doesn't say "miraculous" knowledge. To me miraculous will be when we are able to know even as we are known.

And I am not saying God doesn't speak to us through his word. Of course he does. That is how we know right and wrong. That is what tells us how to live our lives. But his Spirit helps us to overcome and crucify our flesh. If you through the Spirit mortify the deeds of the body you shall live. Romans 8:13 How are you going to do that without his Spirit?

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You said - "Show a verse that says we have to be able to quote like that, and I will work on it. He will help us understand things, and bring things to our memory"

God said - (Jn 14:26) 26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

There it is.

TrueBeliever37 said:

I guess if you are willing to add in extra words, you can make it say what you want. It doesn't say "miraculous" knowledge. To me miraculous will be when we are able to know even as we are known.

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I do not have to add anything to the text.

The context of (1Cor.13:8-10) is miraculous gifts.

Do you agree?


When it speaks of the "in part" it is referring to the revelation each apostle had.

Peter had "a part" of the revelation.
John had "a part" of the revelation.
James had "a part" of the revelation.

This is the "part" which was to be done away.

"We know in part"

9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. 10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. (1Cor.13:9)

The "perfect" is the word of God (Jas.1:25).

25 But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty

It is perfect or complete according to (2Tim.3:16,17).

16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

How do we know it is complete?

(Eph.4:11-13) - 11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; 12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: 13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

(2Peter 1:3) - 3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:

We have got it all. The Lord is through speaking to man.

Thanks

Nova2216 said:

The "perfect" is the word of God (Jas.1:25).

25 But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty

It is perfect or complete according to (2Tim.3:16,17).

16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

How do we know it is complete?

(Eph.4:11-13) - 11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; 12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: 13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

(2Peter 1:3) - 3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:

We have got it all. The Lord is through speaking to man.

Thanks

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You got it all? Okay.

Then you must have a different Bible than me. You must have a library bigger than the world.

John 21:25
And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen.

74x12 said:

You got it all? Okay.

Then you must have a different Bible than me. You must have a library bigger than the world.

John 21:25
And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen.

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I did not say I had "all things" the Lord said while on earth.

I did not say the bible contained "all things" Jesus said while on the earth.

You must have misunderstood the scriptures I posted.

(1Jn 14:26) says the original 12 apostles had help from the Holy Spirit to remember "all things" the Lord said to them while on earth.

(Jn 14:26) - 26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

People are claiming they have the same help from the Holy Spirit the apostles did in the first century.

If that is correct then they can recall "all things" Jesus said just as the apostles in the first century.

That is why I ask people to quote (Mt.1 whole Chapter) with their bibles closed.

It is a test to see if the Holy Spirit is truly guiding them the way they claim.


Thanks

Nova2216 said:

That is why I ask people to quote (Mt.1 whole Chapter) with their bibles closed.

It is a test to see if the Holy Spirit is truly guiding them the way they claim.

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I already disproved the premise of this test.

Nova2216 said:

(1Jn 14:26) says the original 12 apostles had help from the Holy Spirit to remember "all things" the Lord said to them while on earth.

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Not exactly. It says the holy Spirit will "bring" all things to remembrance to them. So, in God's good timing the holy Spirit will bring them to remembrance and it says the holy Spirit will teach them all things also. So once you receive the holy Spirit there is a lot to learn.

Nova2216 said:

I did not say I had "all things" the Lord said while on earth.

I did not say the bible contained "all things" Jesus said while on the earth.

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My point is that God is never finished talking or doing things so the Bible is not the end of the Word of God.

All of what God does and says cannot be written down on earth because there wouldn't be room to contain those books.

74x12 said:

I already disproved the premise of this test.

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Your argument is faulty.

All I have to do to refute your argument is post (Jn 14:26).

26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

Your not arguing with me on this topic. You are arguing with God.

This verse is easy to understand but hard to accept if you teach miracles are for today.

Either you can do what the 12 apostles could do in the first century or not.

They could recall "all things" Jesus said to them.

(Mt.10:18) - 18 And ye shall be brought before governors and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them and the Gentiles. 19 But when they deliver you up, take no thought how or what ye shall speak: for it shall be given you in that same hour what ye shall speak. 20 For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you.


It should be no problem to quote (Mt.1- the whole Chapter) with your bible closed if you have the same Holy Spirit guiding you as the apostles had in the first century.

Thanks

74x12 said:

My point is that God is never finished talking or doing things so the Bible is not the end of the Word of God.

All of what God does and says cannot be written down on earth because there wouldn't be room to contain those books.

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Did the Lord lie in (2Peter 1:3)?

3 According as his divine power hath given unto us "all things" that pertain unto life and godliness,


How about (2Tim.3:15-17)?

17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

Perfect = complete

The word of God is complete (perfect). (James 1;25)

Nova2216 said:

Did the Lord lie in (2Peter 1:3)?

3 According as his divine power hath given unto us "all things" that pertain unto life and godliness,

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No, you are implying that this verse is saying that God gave us all things in the Bible. But, it doesn't say that.

The Lord indeed gives all things including the holy Spirit (the Spirit of Christ) which is the Spirit of prophecy.

Romans 8:9
But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Nova2216 said:

How about (2Tim.3:15-17)?

17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

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Yes, all scripture is given by inspiration of God and is given that you may be perfect. However, the holy Spirit is still the Teacher. You must have the holy Spirit as your Teacher in order to understand the scriptures. You could say the scriptures are the textbook and the holy Spirit is the Teacher.

See 1 Corinthians 2:9-14

Secondly, Jesus defined the "Word of God" as not only everything that is just written. No, He defined the Word of God as "every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God shall man live"

So God speaks.

Nova2216 said:

Perfect = complete

The word of God is complete (perfect). (James 1;25)

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I say the perfect and complete Law of liberty is the holy Spirit. Why? Because He has all and knows all and speaks all.

As it is written "where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty"

And

"When Moses(written scripture) is read the vail, is upon their heart."

But when they turn to the Lord(the Spirit), the veil is taken away. So you can see they turn to the Lord Himself rather than scriptures. Then the veil is taken away. Because they are looking into that "perfect Law of liberty" as a mirror they see the very glory of the Lord and are changed (by the Spirit in them) from glory to glory even as by the Spirit of the Lord.

2 Corinthians 3:15-18
15 But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.
16 Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.
17 Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.
18 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.

James 1:22-25
22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.
23 For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass:
24 For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was.
25 But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.

So the perfect Law of liberty is the rule of the holy Spirit in their hearts so they can not just be hearers of the Word but actually do the works of God. Because the holy Spirit in them enables them to both hear and understand(removes the vail) and finally do it. (which is the fruit of the Spirit Galatians 5).

Nova2216 said:

Your argument is faulty.

All I have to do to refute your argument is post (Jn 14:26).

26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

Your not arguing with me on this topic. You are arguing with God.

This verse is easy to understand but hard to accept if you teach miracles are for today.

Either you can do what the 12 apostles could do in the first century or not.

They could recall "all things" Jesus said to them.

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Please see post #70 for my answer to your John 14:26 argument.

Nova2216 said:

(Mt.10:18) - 18 And ye shall be brought before governors and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them and the Gentiles. 19 But when they deliver you up, take no thought how or what ye shall speak: for it shall be given you in that same hour what ye shall speak. 20 For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you.


It should be no problem to quote (Mt.1- the whole Chapter) with your bible closed if you have the same Holy Spirit guiding you as the apostles had in the first century.

Thanks

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You just made my point. See, it will be given them the hour they need it. Not the hour they want it! If they had it whenever they wanted rather than when they needed; then they would have had it before the trial so they would not worry.

74x12 said:

No, you are implying that this verse is saying that God gave us all things in the Bible. But, it doesn't say that.

.

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I did not imply anything.

I posted (2Peter 1:3).

It says God gave men "all things" pertaining to life and godliness.

I did not say all things the Lord said was included in the NT.

Please read (2Peter 1:3) correctly.

3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness,



Thanks

Nova2216 said:

You said - "Show a verse that says we have to be able to quote like that, and I will work on it. He will help us understand things, and bring things to our memory"

God said - (Jn 14:26) 26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

There it is.

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It doesn't say anything about quoting anything. It says something about bringing things to your remembrance.

Nova2216 said:

When it speaks of the "in part" it is referring to the revelation each apostle had.

Peter had "a part" of the revelation.
John had "a part" of the revelation.
James had "a part" of the revelation.

This is the "part" which was to be done away.

"We know in part"

9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. 10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. (1Cor.13:9)

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So you are trying to say their part of the revelation was done away with? Ridiculous!

All the "parts" each apostle had was to be unified at some point according to (Eph.4:11-13).

...13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith...

When this happened the revelation was complete (perfect).
(2Peter 1:3) (2Tim.3:16,17). Then it was all recorded in writing (epistles). Soon after the miracles ceased for there was no longer a reason for miracles (nothing else to confirm). They now had a written record of the things Jesus said while on earth (the NT).

Then we read (2Peter 1:3). We have "all things" pertaining to life and godliness.

Either this is true or the Lord lied to mankind.


I would also point out that (Zech.13:2) says that prophecy and the unclean spirits will pass out of the land. This is a reference to the miracles and demon possession ceasing around the end of the first century.

2 And it shall come to pass in that day, saith the LORD of hosts, that I will cut off the names of the idols out of the land, and they shall no more be remembered: and also I will cause the prophets and the unclean spirit to pass out of the land. (Zech.13:2)

The more I participate in discussions on RF, the more I notice the divide that exists between those, calling themselves Christians, who are 'fervent in the [human] spirit' for Christ but do not know the baptism in the Holy Spirit, and those who are now born-again of the Holy Spirit, having been personally broken by Christ.

Is this divide not apparent?

Believers who are not walking by grace are not likely to witness healing or miracles. These signs and wonders do not come about through man's righteousness, but through the grace of God. Unless one follows the Gospel of grace, as preached by Paul, and unveiled in the epistles, one is still stuck at the crossroads, acknowledging the salvation of Christ from sin, but not receiving His gift of grace from above. This was the position of Apollos, until he was shown a better way! [See Acts 18:24-28; Acts 19:1-8]

I recently read an interesting passage from Smith Wigglesworth [1927], in which he stated, 'When I went to New Zealand, the power of God was very present and God did wonderfully work miracles and wonders there, and the gift that laid hold of the whole place was the gift of tongues and interpretation. It moved the whole of that city till the place which held 3,500 often was overcrowded and we had 2,000 and 3,000 people who could not get in.
Now when the Plymouth Brethren, who knew the Word of God, saw the grace of God upon me they wanted to have some conversation with me; so I gave them an audience and eighteen of them came.'
[The Brethren questioned Wigglesworth from the book of Ephesians]
'But, Brethren,' said I, 'you have no right to Ephesians; you have no right to the epistles. The epistles are not for you. You are climbing up some other way.'
'Without fear of contradiction, on the authority of God, I say today, there is no person in this place who has a right to the epistles until they have gone through the Acts of the Apostles and received the Holy Ghost.' [Published in The Bridal Call Foursquare]