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The Atonement of Jesus Christ and Why It Needed to Happen.

Spartan

Well-Known Member
No, heretical Jews. Seriously. This is why Chrisitans (along with other heretics) were kicked out of the synagogues 2000 years ago, and are still not part of Judaism to this day.

The Jews who kicked Christians out of their synagogues in those early days were wiped out in God's judgment of them in 70 AD when the Romans sacked Jerusalem. And according to the Gospel of Luke (19:44) it was because they did not recognize the time of God's visitation (i.e. Jesus / God)
 

Spartan

Well-Known Member
I'm sorry it seems that you don't know how to read.
Never have I stated rabbis are liars. The missionaries you bring, however, are liars, for quote-mining and presenting rabbinical sources in a false way, as if rabbinical viewpoints actually prove their point, which they don't.

Baloney. But for the sake of argument, who do you say the suffering servant of Isaiah 53 is??
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
The suffering servant in Isaiah 53 is identified in earlier chapters as being Israel, not the Messiah.
Obviously, Isaiah 53 is about a man, not a country or a people. He and him and his refer to a man.
None of these verses indicate that the chapter is about a country or a people.

Isaiah 53 King James Version (KJV)

53 Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the Lord revealed?

2 For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.

3 He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.

4 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.

5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.

8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.

9 And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.

10 Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in his hand.

11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.

12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
I don't have the time to write about your objections in depth. They are refuted, though, in the 5 volume series, "Answering Jewish Objections to Jesus (Volume 3)," by renowned scholar Dr. Michael L. Brown. For instance, when speaking about the seed of the suffering servant in Isaiah 53, it's commonly argued that Jesus couldn't be the Messiah / suffering servant because he didn't have any (physical) offspring. Those skeptics need to do their homework, as "seed" (Hebrew "zera") can be used in a metaphorical sense (i.e. seed of 'evildoers', seed of adulterer, and a seed of falsehood - see Isaiah 1:4; 14:20; 57:3-4). Other explanations for the identification of the "seed" are in the following article. Whose Seed Shall the Messiah See?
Even if you can explain away Isaiah 53:10, , Isaiah 53:8 and Isaiah 53:9 cannot apply to Jesus because Jesus was not taken from prison and from judgment, Jesus did not make His grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death. In fact, if you want to maintain that Jesus was resurrected from the grave, there is no way Jesus "made His grave" at all.

All of Isaiah fits perfectly with what happened to Baha'u'llah and I can prove it with the history of His life.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
Obviously, Isaiah 53 is about a man, not a country or a people. He and him and his refer to a man.
It mostly deals with Israel personified. It definitely does not refer to Jesus, but at least some Christian theologians believe that it sets the stage for a figure like Jesus even if it's not a direct reference to him.
 

Spartan

Well-Known Member
The suffering servant in Isaiah 53 is identified in earlier chapters as being Israel, not the Messiah.

Not even possible. Israel cannot be the suffering servant of Isaiah 53 for the following reasons:

The servant of Isaiah 53 is an innocent and guiltless sufferer. Israel is never described as sinless. Isaiah 1:4 says of the nation: "Alas sinful nation, a people laden with iniquity. A brood of evildoers, children who are corrupters!" He then goes on in the same chapter to characterize Judah as Sodom, Jerusalem as a harlot, and the people as those whose hands are stained with blood (verses 10, 15, and 21). What a far cry from the innocent and guiltless sufferer of Isaiah 53 who had "done no violence, nor was any deceit in his mouth!"

The prophet speaking is Isaiah himself, who says the sufferer was punished for "the transgression of my people," according to verse 8. Who are the people of Isaiah? Israel. So the sufferer of Isaiah 53 suffered for Israel. So how could he be Israel?

What's more, if you want to claim it's Israel and therefore Israel is to suffer for others, consider Jewish historian Steven Katz, who linked the Holocaust to the belief by many Jews that Isaiah 53 (speaking of Israel as the suffering servant), speaks of Israel (the Jews) suffering for the sins of others. He also (with Josef Roth) advanced theories on which sins of the Jews were being punished by God, including failure to observe the Torah (which were sins of the secular and Reform Jews of Europe prior to the Holocaust). Also, Holocaust survivor and Nobel laureate Elie Wiesel described the religious reaction of many Jews upon first entering a concentration camp: "If I am here, it is because God is punishing me (I have sinned...I deserve this punishment)."

Remember now, that according to Deuteronomy chapter 28, God promised nothing but blessings for the Jews if they kept his commandments. But he also promised curses if they were disobedient. So, according to Deuteronomy chapter 28, the Jews either deserved what happened to them in the Holocaust or, they were God's sacrificial lamb of sorts in Isaiah 53.

But the fact is, Isaiah 53 fits Jesus much better than Israel.
 

Spartan

Well-Known Member
Even if you can explain away Isaiah 53:10, , Isaiah 53:8 and Isaiah 53:9 cannot apply to Jesus because Jesus was not taken from prison and from judgment, Jesus did not make His grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death. In fact, if you want to maintain that Jesus was resurrected from the grave, there is no way Jesus "made His grave" at all.

All of Isaiah fits perfectly with what happened to Baha'u'llah and I can prove it with the history of His life.

From the link below:

" The Messiah (of Isaiah 53, etc.) was Jewish, and of course will be Jewish when He returns in His second Advent (see Isaiah 11:1-2 NAS, out of “the stem of Jesse,” King David’s father). Baha’u’llah was not Jewish, a descendent of King David, but Iranian. Very specific and dramatic signs are to accompany the Messiah’s return (see, for example, Matthew 24), none of which were present for Baha’u’llah’s arrival. The Messiah would not have human birth at His return (2 Thessalonians 1:7-10), but Baha’u’llah did. The Messiah would return directly from heaven to Jerusalem (Acts 1; Zechariah 14), but Baha’u’llah did not. The Messiah would set up an immediate worldwide Kingdom (Zechariah 14), which Baha’u’llah apparently forgot.

It may not be appreciated by Christians enamored with Baha’i just how thoroughly Baha’u’llah erases Jesus Christ. The Jesus Christ of the Gospels is simply no longer relevant. Thus “when Baha’u’llah instituted the great Feast of Ridvan” on April 21, 1863, as a declaration of his own “power and sovereignty,” he called it “the Day of God.” Townshend comments, “Now it was that Jesus Christ [Baha’u’llah] ascended His throne in the power of God the Father. Now it was that He took upon Himself the scepter of the fullness of God’s might and thus set Himself as Supreme Overlord of all that is in heaven and on earth.”[9]

Baha’u’llah had no misgivings at all with usurping Christ’s glory for himself. He tells us, “I am the One Whom the tongue of Isaiah hath extolled…. Jesus, the spirit of God… hath once more, in My person, been made manifest unto you.”[10] According to Dr. William Miller’s research, even ‘Abdu’l-Baha (at least for a time) claimed to be Christ, in spite of the fact that he was “a successor to Baha’u’llah only as head of the community of believers, not as a Manifestation of God.”[11] However, he eventually repudiated the claims, as they apparently caused him some embarrassment: “I am Abdul’ Baha and no more”; “I am not Christ, I am not Eternal God.”[12]" The Baha'i Faith-Part 8 | John Ankerberg Show
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
(This post was re-posted as requested to be in an debate forum, although I would hope this to be informative rather than to try to convert or dissuade others. I want to inform anyone that may not understand Christ Atonement to gain some understanding. Questions in this post are used as teaching tools and not for rhetoric sarcasm)

I have been thinking of doing this post for awhile now and just finally had the courage and time to help many better understand the Atonement of Jesus Christ.

Truly this topic is controversial, (probably the most controversial) still, at least in part, understood by many religious sects so I write not to prove something happened or didn't happen, instead I write to provide a clear understanding of what and why is the Atonement of Jesus Christ. As the atonement could be understood with a different point a view from others, I invite those to write down how they understand such a diverse topic.
As I said before, It is my belief that Atonement is one of the major differences in all of our religions, yet it is something that is ritualized in one way or another by each of us. The Jewish Yom Kippur, The Muslim Ramadan, the Christian Sacrament and Fast are all rituals that we use to better ourselves and rid of our sins. All of these rituals, similarly, require some sort of sacrifice. Usually the sacrifice of food and drink, the sacrifice of worldly pleasures, and more traditionally the sacrifice of flesh (symbolic and non-symbolic). The idea of sacrifice is to sanctify ourselves wholly on the merit that God will accept our offerings and cleanse our souls of sin.

I use these traditions as they are the major religious beliefs in the world, but I am sure there are many more in different religions that practice similar sacrifices, such as the Buddhist monks who have to devote their entire lives away from the world to obtain enlightenment.

Now that we can understand that Atonement or 'At'-'one'-'ment' as I like to call it is not a copyrighted idea rather a universal one, I would like to talk about the Christian God, Jesus Christ and His atonement for mankind.

In Isaiah 53:3-5 written, among other prophecies, several centuries before Christ coming to the world we read
3 He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.

4 ¶ Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.

5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.


Believed to be coupled with this scripture In Isaiah 7: 4

Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel. (With us is God)

15 Butter and honey shall he eat, that he may know to refuse the evil, and choose the good.


Christians believe that this is a direct prophecy of Christ's coming and his purpose was to bear our griefs, and carry our sorrows.

How can someone do that? What did is mean that with his stripes, we are healed? Stripes meaning whipped and flogged to a point where flesh is torn from the body. How can we be healed by this?

It is also odd that a prophet of Israel would be talking about Atonement in a sense of human suffering. From an age-old tradition where animal sacrifices were practiced to reconcile transgressions, and that these animals were supposed to be without bruise or blemish, yet this man would be bruised for our iniquities. This is a very unusual scripture to address healing and atonement.

Now from purely a religious perspective, God, only, has the power to absolve sin. No mortal was given this power (as it would be mostly be used for evil anyway) He can forgive who he wills to forgive. Exodus 34:7 Romans 9: 18 He is the ultimate judge of whom will be admitted to his presence and whom receives damnation forever and ever. So who is this person Isaiah speaks about?

For the Christians, we are speaking of Christ. He was the prophecy that came to us from the prophets of Old who would redeem mankind from sin, so they would be capable to return to God's presence and feel his Joy.

But why? Many of my Muslim and Jewish friends ask. Why must God inflict so much torture to this supposed Son of God? What kind of God would want to kill His own Son, instead of just waving his magic finger and saying, Don't worry 'bout it! Your sins are forgiven? Surely God has the power to do so, right?

The answer to this can go as deep or as shallow you want. I prefer deep, but for the betterment of common understanding I will only hit the surface.

The answer is within our rituals of Atonement. There are two key points to address, Justice and Mercy. Most claim that God is all Just and all Merciful. This can cause conflict in our minds, because if He was all merciful, than everyone, no matter how evil or good would enter heaven because of his mercy. If he was all Just than according to the law God made, no one would be able to enter heaven, as each of us have broken his law since Adam and Eve at some point of our lives.

So what must be done then? How can Justice and Mercy live in harmony? The answer is a Mediator. Some one who fulfills the demands of Justice and Mercy. In order for God to be all Just, a payment needs to be made that would counteract any fault of the perpetrator of the law. Sort of like bail for those who are imprisoned. In order for God to be all Merciful, a plan needed to be created for all to enter heaven and receive His blessings.

Christ was this perfect Mediator. As Christians call him the Lamb of God, the Only Begotten of the Father. He paid the price of His Flesh and Blood, which were innocent and contained the DNA of divinity. He offered it up like Isaac of the Old Testament freely to his Father to sacrifice. This sacrifice met the demands of Justice as all grief and pain and sin were absorbed into this perfect vessel. A man who committed no sin, a God who loved all sinners. This perfect balance preserved God's Justice and Allowed Mercy to live perfectly together in a perfect being.

To conclude this reasoning of a perfect godly sacrifice, that unites a Christian understanding, I would like to pose a question? If Christ, in reality, did give up himself, to be slain for the sins of the world, was this sacrifice accepted by God? As Christians, we believe that it was. God accepted Christs sacrifice as payment for all sins. It was the only price that could be accepted by Him. Not of beast, not of man's offerings or sacrifices, but of His Son's blood and Flesh.

I hope that my Non-Christian friends found this informative. Again, I am not considering this a persuasive essay to demote or distract others beliefs. I just wanted to give some light into why Christians hold firmly to the idea of Christ's sacrifice and divinity and where it comes from.

For Christians, please use the Bible as a tool and not a weapon, if I left out something about the atonement, and you would like to add something, I would ask to do so in a way that is not attacking a certain religion or faith. Thank you for your time.

What is the purpose for those christians and non-christians who know this?

There's a lot of information on atonement, is there a core reason to know this? For lack of better words.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
" The Messiah (of Isaiah 53, etc.) was Jewish, and of course will be Jewish when He returns in His second Advent (see Isaiah 11:1-2 NAS, out of “the stem of Jesse,” King David’s father). Baha’u’llah was not Jewish, a descendent of King David, but Iranian.
Baha'u'llah was out of the stem of Jesse.

1559. Bahá’u’lláh was a Descendent of Abraham Through Both Katurah and Sarah—Jesse, Son of Sarah, was the Father of David and Ancestor of Bahá’u’lláh

"Regarding your question concerning the Jesse from whom Bahá’u’lláh is descended: The Master says in 'Some Answered Questions', referring to Isaiah, chapter 11, verses 1 to 10, that these verses apply 'Word for word to Bahá’u’lláh'. He then identifies this Jesse as the father of David in the following words: '…for Joseph was of the descendants of Jesse the father of David…', thus identifying the Jesse of Isaiah, chapter 11, with being the father of David. Bahá’u’lláh is thus the descendant of Jesse, the father of David.

The Guardian hopes that this will clarify the matter for you. It is a tremendous and fascinating theme, Bahá’u’lláh's connection with the Faith of Judaism, and one which possesses great interest to Jew and Christian alike." (From a letter written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi to an individual believer, July 11, 1942)

12: COMMENTARY ON THE ELEVENTH CHAPTER OF ISAIAH

Genealogy of The Báb and Bahá'u'lláh
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
The Messiah would return directly from heaven to Jerusalem (Acts 1; Zechariah 14), but Baha’u’llah did not.

The Messiah would not return from heaven to Jerusalem, He would come by way of the East, as Baha’u’llah did.

18. Lightning from the East

I now began an earnest search for clues that would tell me something about the place in which the Messiah would appear. Two interesting things came to light. For the first coming, Daniel had given the time and Micah had given the place. Daniel had prophesied exactly when the Messiah would appear the first time and when He would be slain. Micah had said of the place: “But thou, Bethlehem … out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel.”(Micah 5:2)

Daniel had also prophesied with even greater exactness the time of the second coming of the Messiah in 1844 (see p. 20). Therefore, I turned to Micah for a possible clue as to the place of His second appearance. I was richly rewarded. In Micah 7:7 and 12 I found:

“I will wait for the God of my salvation … In that day also he shall come even to thee from Assyria …” (Micah 7:7, 12)

The Assyrian Empire at one time covered the entire area in which both Daniel and Micah lived out their lives. Therefore, I chose to study those parts of the Empire, in which these two prophets traditionally lived and taught. To my surprise, I found that there were many other clues to follow as well. Gradually one led to another, until a definite picture began to emerge, and I knew at least in which direction to turn my gaze.

The book of Ezekiel spoke of a great Figure who would come in those days. He said: “And, behold, the glory of the God of Israel came from the way of the east.” (Ezekiel 43:2)

This was clearly a reference to the second coming of Christ and not the first, for Jesus did not come from the way of the East, He came from north and west of Jerusalem. Isaiah in like manner spoke of the wondrous Figure who would come from the East. Isaiah said that it was God Himself Who had “… raised up the righteous man from the east, called him to his foot, gave the nations before him, and made him rule over kings.” (Isaiah 41:2) Even Christ Himself pointed to the direction from which He would appear in the day of His second coming. Speaking of that day, He said: “For as the lightning cometh out of the East … so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.”(Matthew 24:27)

The Jewish Oracles, the Sibylline books, prophesied that the ‘King Messiah’ of the time of the end would come ‘from the sunrise’.(The Messianic Idea in Israel, J. G. Klausner, 1956, p. 376). Daniel had written his words of millennial prophecy while in the East. In fact, he was in Elam, a part of ancient Persia, when he foretold with such startling accuracy the exact time of both the first and the second comings of Christ. It was in the capital city of Persia, Shúshán, (Ancient Susa, Khúzistán, south-west Írán) that Daniel had the prophetic vision that revealed the year 1844 as the time for the return of the Messiah. Daniel not only gave the time 1844, but he also directed attention to the place, saying that ‘Elam’ (Persia) would be given as a place of ‘vision’ in the latter days (Daniel 8:2).The Prophet Jeremiah speaks of things that ‘shall come to pass in the latter days’ and in the verse preceding this, he says: “And I will set my throne in Elam (Persia) … saith the Lord.”(Jeremiah 49:38). I came across a prophecy well known among the Arabs. Speaking of the time of the end, it said:“When the promised One appears, the ‘upholders of His faith shall be the people of Persia.’”(The Dawn-breakers, Nabíl, p. 49). All these prophecies clearly showed that the Messiah would come from the East, and they put a strong emphasis on the territory of Persia. It was something definite to go on. The circle was narrowing.

William Sears, Thief in the Night, pp. 73-75

Daniel 8:2 And I saw in a vision; and it came to pass, when I saw, that I was at Shushan in the palace, which is in the province of Elam; and I saw in a vision, and I was by the river of Ulai.

Isaiah 41:2 Who raised up the righteous man from the east, called him to his foot, gave the nations before him, and made him rule over kings? he gave them as the dust to his sword, and as driven stubble to his bow.

Jeremiah 49:38 And I will set my throne in Elam, and will destroy from thence the king and the princes, saith the Lord.

It appears as if the Throne was set in Elam, not in Jerusalem, as many Christians believe.

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IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
The Jews who kicked Christians out of their synagogues in those early days were wiped out in God's judgment of them in 70 AD when the Romans sacked Jerusalem. And according to the Gospel of Luke (19:44) it was because they did not recognize the time of God's visitation (i.e. Jesus / God)
We were not wiped out Spartan. Our continued existence today shows how wrong you are.

I don't consider your gospels the be authoritative. They butcher their citations of the Tanakh, and teach wrong headed doctrine. There is a big disconnect between the Christian Scriptures and the Tanakh. So basically, they are only of intellectual interest to me, the way I'm also interested in the Quran or the Book of Mormon.
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
Obviously, Isaiah 53 is about a man, not a country or a people. He and him and his refer to a man.
None of these verses indicate that the chapter is about a country or a people.

Isaiah 53 King James Version (KJV)

53 Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the Lord revealed?

2 For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.

3 He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.

4 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.

5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.

8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.

9 And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.

10 Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in his hand.

11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.

12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.
But it is not about the Messiah.
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
Not even possible. Israel cannot be the suffering servant of Isaiah 53 for the following reasons:

The servant of Isaiah 53 is an innocent and guiltless sufferer. Israel is never described as sinless. Isaiah 1:4 says of the nation: "Alas sinful nation, a people laden with iniquity. A brood of evildoers, children who are corrupters!" He then goes on in the same chapter to characterize Judah as Sodom, Jerusalem as a harlot, and the people as those whose hands are stained with blood (verses 10, 15, and 21). What a far cry from the innocent and guiltless sufferer of Isaiah 53 who had "done no violence, nor was any deceit in his mouth!"

The prophet speaking is Isaiah himself, who says the sufferer was punished for "the transgression of my people," according to verse 8. Who are the people of Isaiah? Israel. So the sufferer of Isaiah 53 suffered for Israel. So how could he be Israel?

What's more, if you want to claim it's Israel and therefore Israel is to suffer for others, consider Jewish historian Steven Katz, who linked the Holocaust to the belief by many Jews that Isaiah 53 (speaking of Israel as the suffering servant), speaks of Israel (the Jews) suffering for the sins of others. He also (with Josef Roth) advanced theories on which sins of the Jews were being punished by God, including failure to observe the Torah (which were sins of the secular and Reform Jews of Europe prior to the Holocaust). Also, Holocaust survivor and Nobel laureate Elie Wiesel described the religious reaction of many Jews upon first entering a concentration camp: "If I am here, it is because God is punishing me (I have sinned...I deserve this punishment)."

Remember now, that according to Deuteronomy chapter 28, God promised nothing but blessings for the Jews if they kept his commandments. But he also promised curses if they were disobedient. So, according to Deuteronomy chapter 28, the Jews either deserved what happened to them in the Holocaust or, they were God's sacrificial lamb of sorts in Isaiah 53.

But the fact is, Isaiah 53 fits Jesus much better than Israel.
Please give the verse in Isaiah 53 where it says that the Servant is sinless.

The REMNANT of Israel do suffer vicariously for Israel.

Israel as a whole has gone back and forth like a pendulum as to whether they had a righteous King and obeyed God,or whether they had an evil King and did not follow the Law. Today, with the individualism of the West, we tend to evaluate individual Jews rather than Israel as a whole, and we find when we do that, that Israel is a mixed back, always having both faithful and unfaithful.
 

Spartan

Well-Known Member
Please give the verse in Isaiah 53 where it says that the Servant is sinless.

Verses 9 and 11, where he's identified as a righteous servant who had done no violence and no deceit was in his mouth.

And now you're going to say Israel had done no violence and never had deceit in their mouths? LOL. Once again, Israel is a sinful nation laden with iniquity. A brood of evildoers, children who are corrupters!" He then goes on in the same chapter to characterize Judah as Sodom, Jerusalem as a harlot, and the people as those whose hands are stained with blood (verses 10, 15, and 21).

Cannot possibly be Israel.
 

Spartan

Well-Known Member
We were not wiped out Spartan. Our continued existence today shows how wrong you are.

I set you up. So, Israel was never "cut off from the land of the living," and now you admit it. Israel thus cannot possibly be the servant of Isaiah 53. You going to keep beating that dead horse??

I don't consider your gospels the be authoritative. They butcher their citations of the Tanakh, and teach wrong headed doctrine. There is a big disconnect between the Christian Scriptures and the Tanakh. So basically, they are only of intellectual interest to me, the way I'm also interested in the Quran or the Book of Mormon.

Nuts.

What's more, righteousness in both the Tanakh and the New Testament are by faith in God (Genesis 15:6 and Ephesians 2:8-9).
 
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