So Jesus is not God?

TrueBeliever37 said:

If you had a typo - you can just say so. I accept that. Please refer to where the verses you are quoting from, are in the scriptures. (So I don't have to search for the verses you use.)

I'm not saying it wasn't the body of a man. But you say he was just a man. #1) Explain how he came down from heaven. John 6:38

#2) Explain why it says in Acts 20:28 - feed the church of God which he hath purchased with his own blood. (Don't try to say God is not in the Greek. It is in some of the oldest manuscripts.) It also has "God" in the Aramaic Pe****to manuscripts.

#3) Who is it talking in Revelation 22:12-13 saying he is coming soon, and that he is the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end and the first and the last? If you are not sure who is coming soon - look at verse 20. Revelation 22:20

Now in Revelation 21:5-7 Who is it sitting on the throne, saying he is the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end? (note verse 7 about being God)

#4) Look at the Greek. "hand" is not in the verses about Steven. He is not standing or sitting at the right hand of anyone. Trinitarian translators have added those words in, wanting it to look like more than one person. How can you stand on the right hand side of a Spirit that fills the heaven and the earth? He was standing in his right as God.

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TrueBeliever, you are an impossible Christian - negative impossible!!! Are you a judaist? You sound like one.

Standing at the right hand of someone is a SPIRITUAL MEANING. Someone who supports wholeheartedly another person is ‘AT THEIR RIGHT HAND’... it’s equivalent to what a protector might say, ‘I got your back’...!!! And I suppose you’ve never heard of ‘Put your trust in my hands’?

It’s not because I cannot but I’m not going to answer your other questions at this time. I’ve got people with sensibility that I need to talk to in person. See you later ...

TrueBeliever37 said:

"right hand" is also a Hebrew idiom for power.

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Yes, but it’s power FROM the owner ... ‘The right hand of power’.

Snakes always try to wriggle and twist away from their captors...

Soapy said:

Yes, but it’s power FROM the owner ... ‘The right hand of power’.

Snakes always try to wriggle and twist away from their captors...

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Soapy said:

TrueBeliever, you are an impossible Christian - negative impossible!!! Are you a judaist? You sound like one.

Standing at the right hand of someone is a SPIRITUAL MEANING. Someone who supports wholeheartedly another person is ‘AT THEIR RIGHT HAND’... it’s equivalent to what a protector might say, ‘I got your back’...!!! And I suppose you’ve never heard of ‘Put your trust in my hands’?

It’s not because I cannot but I’m not going to answer your other questions at this time. I’ve got people with sensibility that I need to talk to in person. See you later ...

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They are difficult questions for you. I can see why you would bail out.

Sometimes its easier to just make a personal attack and call someone a snake.

TrueBeliever37 said:

They are difficult questions for you. I can see why you would bail out.

Sometimes its easier to just make a personal attack and call someone a snake.

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I’m just passing by... again I say that it is not because I cannot but because I’m doing other things that require my immediate attention.

I WILL CERTAINLY GET BACK TO YOU AS SOON AS I AM ABLE. Do not say it’s because I CANNOT ANSWER!

Soapy said:

TrueBeliever, you are an impossible Christian - negative impossible!!! Are you a judaist? You sound like one.

Standing at the right hand of someone is a SPIRITUAL MEANING. Someone who supports wholeheartedly another person is ‘AT THEIR RIGHT HAND’... it’s equivalent to what a protector might say, ‘I got your back’...!!! And I suppose you’ve never heard of ‘Put your trust in my hands’?

It’s not because I cannot but I’m not going to answer your other questions at this time. I’ve got people with sensibility that I need to talk to in person. See you later ...

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Make up your mind. In earlier posts you portray it to mean one is standing/sitting on the right hand side of the other.

TrueBeliever37 said:

Make up your mind. In earlier posts you portray it to mean one is standing/sitting on the right hand side of the other.

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You are still purposely misreading what is being said to you.

In HUMANITY, in the PHYSICAL, it is of course just so.

In the SPIRITUAL, in the SPIRIT, IN SPIRIT, it certainly means, ‘a position on the right side of Power’... ‘at the right hand of Power’.

When King Saul recognises David as a great warrior, he sat David down ‘at his right hand side’ which is the ‘Seat of honour’ next to a king. This is BOTH PHYSICAL and SPIRITUAL...

The physical is obvious, this is standard form for nobility, monarchs, greatness.

The standard position for a sword is on the right.

A strong man’s arm is typically his RIGHT ARM.

As bad as it seems, children who were LEFT HANDED were often left to die or frowned upon as being defective (.... I know I know... we don’t think like that today... I know....!!!!!) Check out the Spartans... for instance.

What you are doing is imagining the SPIRITUAL REALM, the abode of the Spirits, of which YHWH is the ‘FATHER OF SPIRITS’, is exactly like the PHYSICAL realm.

You wrote of incredulous suggestions as how could John ‘see God’ and how could jesus be at the right hand of a spirit...(don’t quote me on that!) and such a mindset that has such questions is immediately marked as DELUSIONAL at worse but certainly simply LACKING UNDERSTANDING at best.

When you begin understanding the SPIRIT REALM then you will realise your grave error of thought and feel fo0lish when you read back your original thoughts.

The mass of posts showing you are wrongful in your thoughts should already have alerted you to the above facts.

Soapy said:

You are still purposely misreading what is being said to you.

In HUMANITY, in the PHYSICAL, it is of course just so.

In the SPIRITUAL, in the SPIRIT, IN SPIRIT, it certainly means, ‘a position on the right side of Power’... ‘at the right hand of Power’.

When King Saul recognises David as a great warrior, he sat David down ‘at his right hand side’ which is the ‘Seat of honour’ next to a king. This is BOTH PHYSICAL and SPIRITUAL...

The physical is obvious, this is standard form for nobility, monarchs, greatness.

The standard position for a sword is on the right.

A strong man’s arm is typically his RIGHT ARM.

As bad as it seems, children who were LEFT HANDED were often left to die or frowned upon as being defective (.... I know I know... we don’t think like that today... I know....!!!!!) Check out the Spartans... for instance.

What you are doing is imagining the SPIRITUAL REALM, the abode of the Spirits, of which YHWH is the ‘FATHER OF SPIRITS’, is exactly like the PHYSICAL realm.

You wrote of incredulous suggestions as how could John ‘see God’ and how could jesus be at the right hand of a spirit...(don’t quote me on that!) and such a mindset that has such questions is immediately marked as DELUSIONAL at worse but certainly simply LACKING UNDERSTANDING at best.

When you begin understanding the SPIRIT REALM then you will realise your grave error of thought and feel fo0lish when you read back your original thoughts.

The mass of posts showing you are wrongful in your thoughts should already have alerted you to the above facts.

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Like I said make up your mind. Quit making all the bogus personal attacks and defend your position. Use the time you type to answer the questions posed to you, instead of making false accusations.

Question : How did Abraham rejoice to see his day? When as a man he wasn't even born yet in Abraham's day. John 8:56

P.S. Don't forget about post#497 questions you said you would answer.

It sounds like you are a devils advocate. Your questions aren’t silly and childish. It smacks of someone who has no idea... or is being purposefully naive.

Like I said make up your mind. Quit making all the bogus personal attacks and defend your position.

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I said I would answer you but it seems like all you want is to create more insipid questions that even an infant in scriptural matters could answer.

Use the time you type to answer the questions posed to you, instead of making false accusations.

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I’m passing by and saw your response... it seems you are anxious to have your ignorance exposed. Have you tried looking up the answers to your own questions so that you can retract them before you are exposed...??? Would be a good idea, in fact!!

Nonetheless :

Question : How did Abraham rejoice to see his day? When as a man he wasn't even born yet in Abraham's day. John 8:56

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Scriptures tells the reader that it was ‘IN VISION’. YHWH told Abraham that one of his offspring would be the messiah. Abraham saw IN VISION the establishment of that offspring. It is a prophecy that is believed on by faith... just as if someone promised that one day they would inherit a mansion and that person FORESAW himself doing so...

Scenario:Grandad, who owned the mansion, Willed it to him but the person didn’t know it until grandad died but he believed absolutely that he would inherit some way, some day... maybe he didn’t know grandad had a mansion so it was totally by faith that he waited for the prophecy to come true..., you can think up your own scenario!

P.S. Don't forget about post#497 questions you said you would answer.

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Ah, so you are waiting by faith for my answer... cool!!! Are you FORESEEING the answer... I bet you don’t like what you are going to read???

Soapy said:

It sounds like you are a devils advocate. Your questions aren’t silly and childish. It smacks of someone who has no idea... or is being purposefully naive.

I said I would answer you but it seems like all you want is to create more insipid questions that even an infant in scriptural matters could answer.
I’m passing by and saw your response... it seems you are anxious to have your ignorance exposed. Have you tried looking up the answers to your own questions so that you can retract them before you are exposed...??? Would be a good idea, in fact!!

Nonetheless :
Scriptures tells the reader that it was ‘IN VISION’. YHWH told Abraham that one of his offspring would be the messiah. Abraham saw IN VISION the establishment of that offspring. It is a prophecy that is believed on by faith... just as if someone promised that one day they would inherit a mansion and that person FORESAW himself doing so...

Scenario:Grandad, who owned the mansion, Willed it to him but the person didn’t know it until grandad died but he believed absolutely that he would inherit some way, some day... maybe he didn’t know grandad had a mansion so it was totally by faith that he waited for the prophecy to come true..., you can think up your own scenario!

Ah, so you are waiting by faith for my answer... cool!!! Are you FORESEEING the answer... I bet you don’t like what you are going to read???

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[Scriptures tells the reader that it was ‘IN VISION’. YHWH told Abraham that one of his offspring would be the messiah. Abraham saw IN VISION the establishment of that offspring. It is a prophecy that is believed on by faith... just as if someone promised that one day they would inherit a mansion and that person FORESAW himself doing so...]
How true!! Abraham did see that day! And how wonderful that must have been!! To look forward to something with faith!!

Also, look at Moses is Deut 18, starting at verse 15 to the end. (No Trinity there....)

And 2 Sam 7 with David. David was told, from you David.......!!!

When we get married and we're thinking about having a child, even before he's born, dont we rejoice to see that day? Arent we even there at graduations, birthdays, etc, even "before" they are even born? IT's not that our children pre-existed for us to see "that day".

Even with us now. Do we see ourselves with our Lord when he returns? I do.....

Thank you for your post.....

moorea944 said:

[Scriptures tells the reader that it was ‘IN VISION’. YHWH told Abraham that one of his offspring would be the messiah. Abraham saw IN VISION the establishment of that offspring. It is a prophecy that is believed on by faith... just as if someone promised that one day they would inherit a mansion and that person FORESAW himself doing so...]
How true!! Abraham did see that day! And how wonderful that must have been!! To look forward to something with faith!!

Also, look at Moses is Deut 18, starting at verse 15 to the end. (No Trinity there....)

And 2 Sam 7 with David. David was told, from you David.......!!!

When we get married and we're thinking about having a child, even before he's born, dont we rejoice to see that day? Arent we even there at graduations, birthdays, etc, even "before" they are even born? IT's not that our children pre-existed for us to see "that day".

Even with us now. Do we see ourselves with our Lord when he returns? I do.....

Thank you for your post.....

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No problem, Moorea. Always happy when the truth is told, received, and believed.

Soapy said:

It sounds like you are a devils advocate. Your questions aren’t silly and childish. It smacks of someone who has no idea... or is being purposefully naive.

I said I would answer you but it seems like all you want is to create more insipid questions that even an infant in scriptural matters could answer.
I’m passing by and saw your response... it seems you are anxious to have your ignorance exposed. Have you tried looking up the answers to your own questions so that you can retract them before you are exposed...??? Would be a good idea, in fact!!

Nonetheless :
Scriptures tells the reader that it was ‘IN VISION’. YHWH told Abraham that one of his offspring would be the messiah. Abraham saw IN VISION the establishment of that offspring. It is a prophecy that is believed on by faith... just as if someone promised that one day they would inherit a mansion and that person FORESAW himself doing so...

Scenario:Grandad, who owned the mansion, Willed it to him but the person didn’t know it until grandad died but he believed absolutely that he would inherit some way, some day... maybe he didn’t know grandad had a mansion so it was totally by faith that he waited for the prophecy to come true..., you can think up your own scenario!

Ah, so you are waiting by faith for my answer... cool!!! Are you FORESEEING the answer... I bet you don’t like what you are going to read???

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It is not that I don't know answers. My questions were intended to get you to think, and see the error in what you are saying. But once again just personal attacks. Where is your scriptural proof for the things you say?

On second thought, maybe there is no need to continue. You can't seem to have a civil discussion.

TrueBeliever37 said:

It is not that I don't know answers. My questions were intended to get you to think, and see the error in what you are saying. But once again just personal attacks. Where is your scriptural proof for the things you say?

On second thought, maybe there is no need to continue. You can't seem to have a civil discussion.

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Your questions were designed to get ME to think... wow!! Do you think I’m an amateur poster!???

Soapy said:

Your questions were designed to get ME to think... wow!! Do you think I’m an amateur poster!???

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Well jump out there and respond to post #497

Why don't you provide proof for your claims like I have asked. Show me some proof that "before" is a Hebrew idiom that means greater than in John 8:58. You think just because you badmouth me you are right.

TrueBeliever37 said:

Well jump out there and respond to post #497

Why don't you provide proof for your claims like I have asked. Show me some proof that "before" is a Hebrew idiom that means greater than in John 8:58. You think just because you badmouth me you are right.

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Actually, you can’t be ‘right’ because you aren’t saying anything. You just asked about who is sitting on the throne and stuff about first and last, etc.

It seems you are going crazy trying to get an answer from me which will only show you are not reading scriptures correctly. I’ve never known anyone who is as anxious as you are to be shown that their thinking is incorrect.

The more desperate for an answer ... the more you should CHECK CHECK AND CHECK AGAIN so that you can step back before that day when your present thinking is shown to be false.

In fact, you have already been shown the answer but you are ignoring it.

Furthermore, isn’t it strange that you keep asking to be shown PROOF of where quotations from scriptures come from in the bible... really?? You are trying for hardcore evidence yet you don’t know enough of the scriptures to know it’s most relevant aspects.... that’s amazing!!

Oeste said:

This poses a HUGE quandary for those who believe Jesus is not God.

But to understand the exact nature of this "quandary" I need you to do something I asked my fellow Christians to do earlier, and that is to posit a premise you may not believe in. For you, I need you to posit that scripture is authoritative and the Word of God.

If you can do that you will see the quandary. If you believe that Jesus is not God simply because the bible is a fabricated collection of stories you will not fully see or understand the issue.

So keeping this in mind we can look at scripture.

As @74x12 pointed out earlier, God is the source of love:

Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love.. (1 John 4:8)
And we also know how the ultimate in greater love is shown:

Greater love has no one than this: to lay down one’s life for one’s friends. (John 15:13)
And to drive the point I am about to make a little further, we know a servant is not greater than his master:

Remember what I told you: 'A servant is not greater than his master.' (John 15:20)
Now, with this in mind...that scripture is authoritative...we come back to our premise that Jesus is not God and Romans 5:8

"But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us."
It is Christ who died, but it is God that shows the love. How? By having His son die! So it is the Son who shows greater love for mankind than God, because there is no greater love than dying for your friends!!

How is that possible when you accept as authoritative that God is the source of love, the servant is not greater than the master and "Jesus is not God"? How does Jesus show greater love than the source of love itself?

This "quandary" is easily answered if Jesus is God, but..for the sake of argument...that premise is off the table. So I am asking my fellow Christians, especially those who believe "Jesus is not God", how we balance our equation.

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DW79 said:

Did someone answer this? I haven't read through all the posts and it was a few months ago now?

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Hi DW79,

I've been extremely busy and haven't logged into Religious Forums for several months, but noticing your comment I felt compelled to reply. The answer is a resounding "No".

As stated previously, it's extremely easy to harmonize and keep scripture authoritative when Jesus is God but quite another if he is not. For example, let's take a look at the incongruous response given by the poster Soapy:

Soapy said:

Almighty God is not our FRIEND!!

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Scripture categorically refutes Soapy's assertion. God is most certainly our friend but Soapy realizes the quandary Romans 5:8 presents so he simply dismisses (consciously, unconsciously?) scriptural authority which allows him to hold fast to a "Jesus ain't God" doctrine. Can you imagine if Soapy were present at certain historical points, reminding everyone that "God is not our friend"???:

Obviously Jesus formed friendships with men by watching His Father do the same:

Scripture:
"Very truly I tell you, the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing..." (John 5:19)
Instead, I have called you friends, for everything that I learned from my Father I have made known to you. (John 15:15)

@Soapy:
Almighty God is not our FRIEND!! (post # 419)

Scripture:
“Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,” and he was called God’s friend. (James 2:23)

@Soapy:
Almighty God is not our FRIEND!! (post # 419)

Scripture:
But thou, Israel, art my servant, Jacob whom I have chosen, the seed of Abraham my friend. (Isaiah 41:8)

@Soapy:
Almighty God is not our FRIEND!! (post # 419)

If God is not our friend, then He simply does not possess the "greater love" for humanity as described in Romans 5:8, which would be nonsense since God is the source of love itself. But it appears this is the type of tortured, head turning scriptural reasoning I must adopt with the notion that Jesus is not God.

Remember, for purposes of this thread we are making the presumption that Jesus is not God. No Trinitarianism, no Oneness, just Unitarian theology. As such I am trying my best "to walk a mile in someone else's shoes" and discover how a bible believing Christian would coherently rationalize and harmonize (rather than simply proof-text) scripture when "Jesus ain't God".

As Soapy has memorably demonstrated, it's tough as nails to do.

Oeste said:

Hi DW79,

I've been extremely busy and haven't logged into Religious Forums for several months, but noticing your comment I felt compelled to reply. The answer is a resounding "No".

As stated previously, it's extremely easy to harmonize and keep scripture authoritative when Jesus is God but quite another if he is not. For example, let's take a look at the incongruous response given by the poster Soapy:



Scripture categorically refutes Soapy's assertion. God is most certainly our friend but Soapy realizes the quandary Romans 5:8 presents so he simply dismisses (consciously, unconsciously?) scriptural authority which allows him to hold fast to a "Jesus ain't God" doctrine. Can you imagine if Soapy were present at certain historical points, reminding everyone that "God is not our friend"???:

Obviously Jesus formed friendships with men by watching His Father do the same:

Scripture:
"Very truly I tell you, the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing..." (John 5:19)
Instead, I have called you friends, for everything that I learned from my Father I have made known to you. (John 15:15)

@Soapy:
Almighty God is not our FRIEND!! (post # 419)

Scripture:
“Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,” and he was called God’s friend. (James 2:23)

@Soapy:
Almighty God is not our FRIEND!! (post # 419)

Scripture:
But thou, Israel, art my servant, Jacob whom I have chosen, the seed of Abraham my friend. (Isaiah 41:8)

@Soapy:
Almighty God is not our FRIEND!! (post # 419)

If God is not our friend, then He simply does not possess the "greater love" for humanity as described in Romans 5:8, which would be nonsense since God is the source of love itself. But it appears this is the type of tortured, head turning scriptural reasoning I must adopt with the notion that Jesus is not God.

Remember, for purposes of this thread we are making the presumption that Jesus is not God. No Trinitarianism, no Oneness, just Unitarian theology. As such I am trying my best "to walk a mile in someone else's shoes" and discover how a bible believing Christian would coherently rationalize and harmonize (rather than simply proof-text) scripture when "Jesus ain't God".

As Soapy has memorably demonstrated, it's tough as nails to do.

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Thank you for revitalising this aspect of the debate. It is as well to reiterate that Jesus Christ is not Almighty God and that we should not conflate friendship with Sonship.

We are told constantly that a parent should not consider themselves as ‘Friends’ to their children. It is a grave error of parenting to class yourself as your child(ren’s) FRIEND.

No! Never assume a ‘friend’ level with your offspring. You are their PARENT!!!

Your post insinuates that because Jesus calls the disciples/Apostles, ‘Friends’, this qualifies him as being Almighty God: YHWH. This is patently untrue and totally despicable. Jesus has previously called the disciples/Apostles, ‘Servants’ (or ‘Slaves’) (John 15:15), because he was teaching them... and a Servant, in a greater situation, is completely akin to a ‘SON’. So, NOW, Jesus no longer calls them ‘Son/Servant/Slave’ but ‘FRIEND’ because he no longer is spiritually above them BUT RATHER is THEIR PEER... Son of God, HEIRS TO YHWH.

But you see that YHWH never calls anyone ‘FRIEND’, ...Apart from ABRAHAM....

You propose to claim that ALMIGHTY GOD called others, ‘Friend’ but can show no evidence (since there is none - obviously.

YHWH is our TEACHER, our FATHER... A Father is not a FRIEND to his children.

If you are getting emotional about the word ‘Friend’ then you misappropriate the usage of the word and term. A parent who claims to his child that s/he is their FRIEND is heading for a problematic relationship with that child.

And concerning Abraham, you will see that the word for ‘Friend’ (“Aheb”) is also the same word for ‘Love’... So God was saying that Abraham was such a great person for carrying out such a faithful act that God had directed him to do that God attributes to him love above all whom had come before... God attribute him Fatherhood of the AHEB nation to come:

• Genesis 17 :5 “Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee.”

So you cannot claim that because the translator used ‘Friend’ instead of ‘Great [Fatherly] Love’ that this means the same as Tom calling Harry, ‘Friend’ because Harry did what Tom asked him to do.

And, equally, Jesus used ‘Philos’ (Greek translation): ‘Friend’, ‘Most Beloved’, concerning his disciples/Apostles.

For sure, a parent can call his most obedient child, ‘Most Beloved’, which equates to ‘Firstborn’ (note, not ‘FIRST BORN’... though the first born (first out of the womb) is most often, initially, ALSO the ‘Firstborn’ (Most beloved of the Father).

The problem of understanding scriptures comes about by those who look for earthly, flesh, human interpretations on the spiritual matters that scriptures speaks about.

• “Caveat lector“ / "caveat auditor"
• ..........."Reader beware"

Jesus is now Son and Heir TO YHWH GOD
The ELECT will be Son and Heir TO YHWH GOD

Jesus is FRIEND with the Elect

YHWH is FATHER and GOD to both Jesus and the Elect

Though Jesus Christ is GREATER THAN ABRAHAM, Jesus is not called ‘FRIEND TO GOD’ as Abraham was... BUT Jesus is called ‘MOST BELOVED of God’, aka, ‘Son of God’... and later, the Elect will be called, ‘Sons of God’.

You are misusing/conflating the contemporary usage of the term, ‘Friend’ with its ‘Aheb’ meaning, which shows in the fact that you only found ONE SINGLE interpretation (concerning Abraham) and tried to use that to justify a point that was invalid from the start.

Soapy said:

Actually, you can’t be ‘right’ because you aren’t saying anything. You just asked about who is sitting on the throne and stuff about first and last, etc.

It seems you are going crazy trying to get an answer from me which will only show you are not reading scriptures correctly. I’ve never known anyone who is as anxious as you are to be shown that their thinking is incorrect.

The more desperate for an answer ... the more you should CHECK CHECK AND CHECK AGAIN so that you can step back before that day when your present thinking is shown to be false.

In fact, you have already been shown the answer but you are ignoring it.

Furthermore, isn’t it strange that you keep asking to be shown PROOF of where quotations from scriptures come from in the bible... really?? You are trying for hardcore evidence yet you don’t know enough of the scriptures to know it’s most relevant aspects.... that’s amazing!!

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Ridiculous post! If you can't or don't want to debate just stop replying.

Soapy said:

Thank you for revitalising this aspect of the debate.

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No problem, I enjoy posting here. I just wish I had more time.

Soapy said:

It is as well to reiterate that Jesus Christ is not Almighty God.

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Well, for purposes of this thread that is the presumption, but a quandary arises when we attempt to harmonize scripture.

Soapy said:

and that we should not conflate friendship with Sonship.

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I’m not aware of any posters who have conflated the two. However, I see no reason why a son cannot be a friend, nor why a friend cannot be a son.

Soapy said:

We are told constantly that a parent should not consider themselves as ‘Friends’ to their children. It is a grave error of parenting to class yourself as your child(ren’s) FRIEND.

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Then you have been presented with a false dichotomy. There is nothing wrong with being a friend to your child

The "problems" come when you are a Father but forget to be a friend, or when you are a friend and forget to be a Father.

Soapy said:

No! Never assume a ‘friend’ level with your offspring. You are their PARENT!!!

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Nonsense! Being friend to your child does not make you any less their PARENT!!!

One of my best experiences in life was when my 4 year old served me “lunch” with “tea”. We pretended to eat and drink while we conversed about whatever came to her mind. Being a playmate or friend to your child is a natural role for any parent to take. Why you think this is dysfunctional is beyond me.

Soapy said:

Your post insinuates that because Jesus calls the disciples/Apostles, ‘Friends’, this qualifies him as being Almighty God: YHWH.

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Nah, my post insinuated no such thing. What my post clearly stated is that Jesus cannot do anything he has not seen his Father doing. That would include making friends with men.

Soapy said:

This is patently untrue and totally despicable.

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Then either Jesus was doing something he had not seen his Father doing or he didn't really have any friends.

Which are you claiming?

Soapy said:

Jesus has previously called the disciples/Apostles, ‘Servants’ (or ‘Slaves’) (John 15:15), because he was teaching them... and a Servant, in a greater situation, is completely akin to a ‘SON’. So, NOW, Jesus no longer calls them ‘Son/Servant/Slave’ but ‘FRIEND’ because he no longer is spiritually above them BUT RATHER is THEIR PEER... Son of God, HEIRS TO YHWH.

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In other words, Jesus called them friends and he did this because he can only do what he sees his Father doing.

Soapy said:

But you see that YHWH never calls anyone ‘FRIEND’, ...Apart from ABRAHAM

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I see. So now God is a respecter of persons? How did you manage to square this with the following?:

Soapy said:

You propose to claim that ALMIGHTY GOD called others, ‘Friend’ but can show no evidence (since there is none - obviously.

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You just admitted Abraham was a friend of Almighty God but now claim there is no evidence...none...that God called others “friend”. Your logic escapes me Soapy and makes your analysis appear suspect.

The idea here is that we are holding scripture to be authoritative. That’s tough to do when you've just asked us to cast it aside.

Soapy said:

YHWH is our TEACHER, our FATHER... A Father is not a FRIEND to his children.

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Soapy, you do have a penchant for turning scripture on its head!!!

You’ve just told us that Abraham was not a child of God because he was God’s friend!!

I am beginning to mirror @TrueBeliever37 's frustration.

Soapy said:

If you are getting emotional about the word ‘Friend’ then you misappropriate the usage of the word and term. A parent who claims to his child that s/he is their FRIEND is heading for a problematic relationship with that child.

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So you would counsel God that He was heading for problems as soon as He called Abraham His friend?

Oh wait...I just remembered you told us "A Father is not a Friend to his children", so Abraham could not possibly be a child of God.

Soapy said:

And concerning Abraham, you will see that the word for ‘Friend’ (“Aheb”) is also the same word for ‘Love’...

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Ahhh...now I get it!

So when you say “Almighty God is not our FRIEND!!!” as you did in post 419, you could have also have said “Almighty God is not our LOVE!!!” and this would have meant the exact same thing, correct?

Also, since, as you claim no one is God’s friend “…apart from Abraham” then no one is God’s love “…apart from Abraham” because “Aheb” is the same word for friend or love.
Is this correct as well?

Lastly, since no one “…apart from Abraham” is God’s friend or love, where exactly does that leave Jesus??? Did God send Jesus to die because He refused to love or be friends with him?

Soapy said:

Though Jesus Christ is GREATER THAN ABRAHAM, Jesus is not called ‘FRIEND TO GOD’ as Abraham was... BUT Jesus is called ‘MOST BELOVED of God’, aka, ‘Son of God’... and later, the Elect will be called, ‘Sons of God’.

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What happened to "Aheb"? Didn't you tell us it meant the same thing?

Also, on what basis are you claiming Jesus as no friend of God? Are you claiming that if you are beloved, you are not a friend? Also, does this work in reverse...if you are a friend you are not beloved?


My goodness, these scriptural narratives are easy to follow when Jesus is God; so tough when he is not!!

TrueBeliever37 said:

Ridiculous post! If you can't or don't want to debate just stop replying.

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But we are debating in each response... what’s your problem. Just because the truth defeats you doesn’t mean I’m not worth debating with. The point is to teach you the truth - not fur you to evade it by crying off saying I’m can’t debate!

Oeste said:

No problem, I enjoy posting here. I just wish I had more time.




Well, for purposes of this thread that is the presumption, but a quandary arises when we attempt to harmonize scripture.




I’m not aware of any posters who have conflated the two. However, I see no reason why a son cannot be a friend, nor why a friend cannot be a son.




Then you have been presented with a false dichotomy. There is nothing wrong with being a friend to your child

The "problems" come when you are a Father but forget to be a friend, or when you are a friend and forget to be a Father.




Nonsense! Being friend to your child does not make you any less their PARENT!!!

One of my best experiences in life was when my 4 year old served me “lunch” with “tea”. We pretended to eat and drink while we conversed about whatever came to her mind. Being a playmate or friend to your child is a natural role for any parent to take. Why you think this is dysfunctional is beyond me.



Nah, my post insinuated no such thing. What my post clearly stated is that Jesus cannot do anything he has not seen his Father doing. That would include making friends with men.



Then either Jesus was doing something he had not seen his Father doing or he didn't really have any friends.

Which are you claiming?




In other words, Jesus called them friends and he did this because he can only do what he sees his Father doing.




I see. So now God is a respecter of persons? How did you manage to square this with the following?:

Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: (Act 10:34) or
There is no respect of persons with God (Romans 2:11)​

You just admitted Abraham was a friend of Almighty God but now claim there is no evidence...none...that God called others “friend”. Your logic escapes me Soapy and makes your analysis appear suspect.

The idea here is that we are holding scripture to be authoritative. That’s tough to do when you've just asked us to cast it aside.




Soapy, you do have a penchant for turning scripture on its head!!!

You’ve just told us that Abraham was not a child of God because he was God’s friend!!

I am beginning to mirror @TrueBeliever37 's frustration.



So you would counsel God that He was heading for problems as soon as He called Abraham His friend?

Oh wait...I just remembered you told us "A Father is not a Friend to his children", so Abraham could not possibly be a child of God.



Ahhh...now I get it!

So when you say “Almighty God is not our FRIEND!!!” as you did in post 419, you could have also have said “Almighty God is not our LOVE!!!” and this would have meant the exact same thing, correct?

Also, since, as you claim no one is God’s friend “…apart from Abraham” then no one is God’s love “…apart from Abraham” because “Aheb” is the same word for friend or love.
Is this correct as well?

Lastly, since no one “…apart from Abraham” is God’s friend or love, where exactly does that leave Jesus??? Did God send Jesus to die because He refused to love or be friends with him?



What happened to "Aheb"? Didn't you tell us it meant the same thing?

Also, on what basis are you claiming Jesus as no friend of God? Are you claiming that if you are beloved, you are not a friend? Also, does this work in reverse...if you are a friend you are not beloved?


My goodness, these scriptural narratives are easy to follow when Jesus is God; so tough when he is not!!

Click to expand...

Oeste, can I suggest you look up ‘Parenting and Best friend’ (or anything similar). You will find that Parenting and Best Friends are opposite partners.

God called Abraham, ‘Aheb’, because Abraham did such a great deed by pure faith. I don’t need to tell you how much God loves Abraham for what Abraham did. Therefore the SELECTED term that qualifies from ‘Aheb’ is not ‘Friend’, but rather, ‘Most beloved’.

And I see you managed to turn everything I said upside down to try to achieve your aim instead of understanding what was being said to you.

Jesus is never called, ‘Friend’ because ‘Friend’ is too small a term for one who was even GREATER than Abraham.

I have outlined MANY TIMES how the FIRST ‘Most Beloved’ sinned - and ANOTHER was brought up to replace that FIRST MOST BELOVED. I’m guessing, like virtually all other readers, it meant nothing to you... you don’t notice the significance of it...?!

Though Abraham was Yhwh’s FIRST ‘Most Beloved’ (Firstborn), Abraham sinned by giving way to Sarah concerning bearing a child - a child of the covenant.

I can create a list of ‘Firstborn’ again if you still don’t see the links for yourself. Effectively, Jesus Christ supersedes ALL ‘Firstborns’ - all ‘Most Beloved’...including Adam, Seth, Moses, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, David, Solomon, etc.

Please remember that the translated words used in the scriptures is CHOSEN BY THE AUTHORITIES OF THE TRANSLATORS. In contemporary times we DO NOT USE the word, ‘Friend’ as it was used in scripture times.

Think of what we mean by Friends today...! Really, think how it is used!! Today, ‘Friend’ is a MUTUAL RELATIONSHIP of EQUALS. A parent cannot... should not... ever be EQUAL with their child!!!

Can a human be a FRIEND TO GOD...? Don’t knee jerk... think before you answer!

Should God be a FRIEND to a Human?
Should a Human be a friend to God?

Should God Judge a human?
Should a Human Judge God?

Only one of the above answers, ‘Yes’. And that one is not ‘Friend’. It is PARENT, teacher, Lord, Master, Judge...

And YHWH GOD is not partial... Yhwh God seeks only righteousness from mankind.

A FRIEND shows PARTIALITY to those whom are his Friends - He gives to the friend though the friend may not have earned... YHWH (Father) gives only to those (of his children) who have earned.

A teacher is not a friend.
A Judge is not a friend.

Oeste, I think you are working your assumptions on an emotional level. It sure would give you an emotionally feel-good sensation to think of yourself as a FRIEND to your child... WHO THEN IS GOING TO BE THAT CHILD’s PARENT???

‘Friend’ is incongruous with ‘PARENT’.

‘Aheb’s root meaning is ‘To Love’ and certainly a person can ‘love’ another person... look out for that other person’s interest... but ‘Aheb’ covers other meanings just as many other words mean slightly but crucial different things. It is therefore necessary to select the CORRECT MEANING in all contexts of reading or writing.

1. ‘Abraham was attributed a GREAT LOVE of God’
2. ‘Abraham was attributed a FRIEND of God’

Which is likely the true saying?