• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

So Jesus is not God?

Soapy

Son of his Father: The Heir and Prince
After 2,000 years of arguing among themselves, it seems Christians have still not resolved the question. I'll let them worry about it.
The pure and simple reason why christians are still arguing after 2000 years is due to the wrongful belief in trinity, and the likes, plus misrepresentations of who Christ is from both the Mormon and JW camps (I don’t know the titles of any other ‘group types’)

I call myself a Christian because I believe that I am following the belief that:
  1. “There is only one true God: the Father: YHWH’
  2. ‘There is only one Lord: Jesus Christ’
Jesus Christ spoke the above (paraphrased) words stating that:
  • ‘Those desiring Eternal Life in the new kingdoms to come must believe [1. and 2. above] and that the Father sent Jesus Christ to witness to this revelation.
All these facts can be seen from the verses in Rev 1:1:
  • “The revelation from Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John,”
and John 17:3:
  • “Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.”
And the summation of this is given in John 17:8:
  • “For I gave them the words you gave me and they accepted them. They knew with certainty that I came from you, and they believed that you sent me.”
What we see is that the Father gave Jesus a Revelation, a Testimony, about himself and things he proposed concerning the created world and its order.

Jesus faithfully and completely deliver the testimony to the disciples and declared this aspect of his work was done.

This observation is irrefutable and undeniable by anyone who reads the scriptures. It does not require a belief in God or Christ to see this. I can believe that Frodo Baggins managed to dispose of “The One Ring” in the volcanic fire as was set out to him at the first committee meeting of ‘The Nine’ (though it was actually Gollum who fell in the fire clutching the One Ring!!) BUT it doesn’t mean I believe MIDDLE EARTH is real...

However, since I believe that YHWH sent Jesus with the testimony and that Jesus delivered the said testimony, and that I do believe that YHWH and Jesus Christ are real, then my belief is true.

What the problem is, is that others also call themselves ‘Christians’ but profess a DIFFERENT CHRIST JESUS!!!

These, I’m just talk about trinity-believing people, propose that:
  • Jesus Christ was actually YHWH in flesh... in human form
and that:
  • YHWH gave .... YHWH... the... revelation .. about ....... himself.... WHAT????
So, in fact, though claiming to believe that the Father: YHWH, is ‘THE ONE TRUE GOD’ (John 17:3), they ALSO CLAIM that Jesus Christ is ‘THE ONE TRUE GOD’....

But if that was not enough of a scriptural absurdity, they go further and claim that:
  • ‘The Spirit of YHWH’ is in [their] fact, a PERSON beside YHWH, the Father, and Jesus Christ (who is also YHWH!!!)
Hence they are dubbed, ‘Trinitarian Christians’.

But here now is the controversy: Because trinity belief is an absurdity, no two Trinitarians agree on the details of the absurdity...

BUT THIS IS A GREAT STRATEGY.

If anyone - when anyone - disputes with a trinitarian and outlines the absurdity of the trinity, the trinitarian simply DENIES that specific absurdity and claims it is not their belief. You will typically find that they do not express what THEIR absurdity is - simply deny the anecdotal one.

The result of this strategy is that trinity belief EVOLVES and MUTATES like a virus. It’s protagonists are unstable and slippery as a wet eel. A forum is a difficult ‘box’ to try to hold a trinitarian in and close the lid on their absurdities because it is full of holes for them to slither away into as you try to pin them down to what they are actually claiming to believe.

If you check my exchanges with them you will see that they do not answer any question (per se) that I ask... even ask explicitly .. even after opening asking them to ask me... There is a simple reason why they do not do so!!!!

The previous posts asks that I should dialogue with others....

THIS IS THE DEBATE CHAMBER...

There are other chambers in the forum for DIALOGUING....!!

And what ‘dialogue’ can there be with an absurd belief... You rightly state that it is endless...!

My purpose is to express THE TRUTH concerning ALMIGHTY GOD, the Father, the One True God... and Jesus Christ, whom the Father sent.

I have written extensively concerning the truth but no one hears (reads) it. Here it is in a nutshell:
  1. YHWH God, a Spirit, an unconstrained entity, creates a new limited entity called, ‘Creation’ (Genesis 1) also called, ‘The world’, and ‘Earth’ (but this is far more than the planet we live on)
  2. He creates this world by use of HIS great almighty power and authority, we call, ‘Holy Spirit’
  3. YHWH creates an entity from the ’dust of the earth‘ and puts a spirit of himself (image of himself) into the lifeless entity (body) to give it life and animate it... this entity he called, ‘Man’... and gave the man a name, ‘Adam’, and puts him to be Head over creation, managing it as he sees fit for himself
  4. Adam is perfect in all his ways in doing what YHWH directs him to do... thus Adam is a perfect SON to his creator (‘Father’: ‘He who creates: He who give life)
  5. But Adam is persuaded by a malicious helper spirit (Satan) to try to live without following YHWH. This is the start of disaster for MANKIND: the Son is now imperfect, now contains sin... Eternal Death is the long term prognosis. All offsprings of Adam are subject to this eternal death
  6. YHWH initially desired to destroy his creation after witnessing an increase in lawlessness among the offspring of Adam. But he repents when he finds one righteous man, Noah.
  7. God proposes that mankind can save itself if a man of sinless character can be found who will be sacrificed for the sin of Adam. In case anyone is wondering, the event is encapsulated in the killing of an unblemished lamb each year by the Jews in a ceremony of ‘the sacrificial lamb’
  8. But God knows this might not happen so he put in place a contingency plan that a SECOND ADAM would come about and fulfil the prophecy in 7. Of course, if a sinless man could be found in 7. then he would be that SECOND ADAM. In fact, since it takes only one sinless Adam, this Adam would also be the LAST ADAM
  9. God gave time for the prophecy to be fulfilled in 7. But no sinless man was found - David... King David, came nearest and so, before David sinned by taking another man’s wife and killing that man, Uriah, God established his throne to be an everlasting throne
  10. Finally, God brought about his contingency plan. Sin, spiritually, comes through the seed of the man, therefore Yhwh took the ‘dust’ of the seed of a virgin woman and overshadowed it with his Holy Spirit, thus giving it life: a sinless holy and righteousness child born in the same manner of the first Adam and given the name Jesus Christ
  11. Be aware that ‘Jesus’ is not the true name. The true name is ‘Joshua’ but over time and due to popular usage the name changed to ‘Jesus’... Both ‘Jesus’ and ‘Joshua’ mean, ‘He who saves his people’... (know your scriptures!!)
  12. Jesus did no miracles but learnt from his spiritual Father: YHWH, until his time came. He was baptised in water by John the Baptist but then was baptised by the Holy Spirit of YHWH. Thus fulfilled the prophecy concerning ”he who comes by water and spirit”
  13. The baptising, the ANOINTING, of Jesus by the Holy Spirit gave Jesus the power to carry out acts of miracles in the name of YHWH. Note that Jesus only ever carried out miracles AFTER praying to YHWH and in any case, stated that what he did was by his spiritual fathers desire - not his own. The power and authority was from YHWH, not himself!!
  14. Finally, prophecy declared that he should die to pay for the sin of Adam: one man brought death into the world and another removes.
  15. Jesus is crucified and the heavens are in turmoil - Jesus dies : “‘It is over, into thy hands, o Father, I commend my spirit’, and he breathed his last’
  16. Three days later YHWH raises Jesus from the dead and established him in heaven at his side. Certainly if Jesus were God he wouldn’t be at YHWH’s side because he WOULD BE YHWH... also, if Jesus is God, and at God’s right hand side, then there would be two gods ...and note that there was no third person (kick in the teeth to trinity doctrine.)
  17. Jesus is GIVEN power and authority BY YHWH GOD to reign for a thousand years to set the world to rights. After this period of time he HANDS BACK the power and authority to GOD WHO GAVE IT TO HIM. How can Jesus be God if he has no power and authority?
  18. Finally, Jesus JUDGES the people of humanity and also demon angels and GIVES LIFE TO those of humanity he deems worthy of such... “Give life to“ is [one of] the meanings of “FATHER”. The life Jesus gives at this time is an EVERLASTING LIFE, therefore he fulfils the prophecy of Isaiah: ‘Everlasting Father’!!
  19. And to end it all, YHWH establishes Jesus as the king over the world he created in 1. above. Jesus becomes ‘Firstborn over Creation’ (’Firstborn’, means, ‘the most beloved of the Father’. It does not mean Jesus was the First BORN of humanity!!)
  20. Jesus rules as ‘God’ to humanity. YHWH thus gives him ‘The Name That Is Above All Names: YHWH’. Note that they are not the SAME YHWH but that the name means, ‘He who changes not’... and so Jesus will, like his spirit Father, forever never change. Whatever he proposes will be so within creation. Almighty God, the Father will still rule over the heavenly realm - a greater kingdom than anything the created kingdom could ever be... EQUALITY? What equality??
 

Milton Platt

Well-Known Member
Everyone has their quotes to support their beliefs. There is no universal standard with which to measure the thousands of claims. Your quotes are no better nor worse than all the others.
 

Riders

Well-Known Member
I believe they did not lay down their lives as God to save people from their sins. There is only one God and there is only one who has said so and laid done His life in Israel.

You still have not proven that there was any difference between Jesus and any other Messiah.
 

Soapy

Son of his Father: The Heir and Prince
Everyone has their quotes to support their beliefs. There is no universal standard with which to measure the thousands of claims. Your quotes are no better nor worse than all the others.
Since you do not state whom you are addressing your post to, please can you say what it is you are objecting to.

You ARE right that quotes can be read out of context, both to repudiate and to support a belief, the reader should be aware (CAVEAT EMPTOR) of the true meaning BY ITS CONTEXT.

So, if you or whomever, cannot see the true context of what is being quoted then it is certain that such a person is LACKING UNDERSTANDING... in regard to what is being conversed or disputed.

Just in case the post was to me (may not have been.., apologies if not!), please list some things that you believe are not supporting my points and how they could have been misrepresented.

For sure, it is not enough just to say:
  • “Your quotes are no better nor worse than all the others.”
Quotes are there for a reason. It is extremely naive to claim that quoting a point is ...pointless!!!

Why then did Jesus Christ quote the ‘Old Testament’ to make his point to the Jews, stating:
  • “If he called them gods to whom the word of God came—and Scripture cannot be broken what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, 'I am God's Son'?“
Gosh, that’s a quote!!! A quote that the Jews, who knew the scriptures like the back of their hands - though they did not hold to it in places and held too tightly in others, could not refute!!!

That ‘quote’ from Jesus was to REFUTE the claim of the Jews that Jesus, calling himself, ‘Son of God’ (that God was his own Father) meant that he, Jesus, was CLAIMING TO BE GOD... GOD: YHWH, whom they themselves claim to be THEIR FATHER... God and Father!!!
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
How is the trinity in Isaiah? Or in any chapter for that matter of fact. Just curious on you see that one...

We also have to remember that the trinity was "added into" religion around 325ish AD from Emp Constantine and the council of Nicea. No one in scripture, esp in the OT believed in a triune God. Our Heavenly Father is one God. No other Gods beside him. Isaiah also says that.

I believe that is not true.

Isa. 9:6 For to us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government shall be upon 4 his shoulder, and his name shall be called 5 Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

Father:
Everlasting Father

Son: Prince of Peace

Paraclete (Holy Spirit): Wonderful Counselor

 

Soapy

Son of his Father: The Heir and Prince
I believe that is not true.

Isa. 9:6 For to us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government shall be upon 4 his shoulder, and his name shall be called 5 Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

Father:
Everlasting Father

Son: Prince of Peace

Paraclete (Holy Spirit): Wonderful Counselor
I notice there is no response to the poster regarding:
  • “Our Heavenly Father is one God. No other Gods beside him. Isaiah also says that.”
I always find that trinity supporters cherrypick their responses to questions regarding their belief. I understand, absolutely, why they should do this... questions that require trinity believers to admit their ideology is false are rarely answered with sincerity, integrity, and righteousness!

But in any case, I think the stating that:
  • ‘ONLY God’
is wrongfully translated. There is no reason to claim a deity as being ‘ONE’... the same Hebrew word for ‘ONE’, is also the same word for ‘ONLY’. Thus:
  • ‘ONLY God‘
This is because the deity the Israelites called their God (not the reference to ‘deity’!!) states that they were to believe that he was their ‘ONLY GOD’... not that he was ‘ONE’.

The Israelites were among tribes and nations who believed in many deities as their Gods. It was necessary to remind them that Israelites should believe that there was ONLY one deity they should believe in as their God. That this God was their ‘ONLY GOD’.

Saying ‘One God’ makes no linguistically sense. What is the linguistically alternative to ‘One God’??? ‘MANY GODS’... ‘Believe in me only... I am MANY GODS’....!!

Come on people,. Be sensible and stop talking trinity nonsense!! Yes, it is TRINITY that demands that we say, ‘Our God is ONE GOD’... but ‘MANY (three) PERSONS...’

And as for that over-misquoted verse in Isaiah...

“Everlasting Father’ pertains to the END OF TIME when Jesus raises the dead and gives EVERLASTING LIFE to those who he deems worthy of such.

The Title, ‘Father’ means:
  • ‘He who gives life...’
  • ‘He who brings into being...’
  • ‘He who creates...’
  • ‘He who is the head...’
Thus Jesus is ‘Father’ to those who he gives life to at the end of time... and since these will live everlastingly after, then naturally Jesus will be their ‘EVERLASTING FATHER’.

This ‘Fatherhood’ is SPIRITUAL... it does not mean Jesus procreates children... Spiritual procreation is like an Adoption:
  • ‘This day I have BECOME to you, a Father. And you have BECOME to me, a Son’
Those of you who have read the scriptures will know these words spoken from Almighty God TO JESUS CHRIST....

If Jesus is ‘Almighty God’, why is GOD adopting him!!!?

And, regarding Isaiah, has any trinitarian ever answered to why Jesus is ONLY A PRINCE OF PEACE... why, if he is almighty God, isn't he ‘KING’ of peace???

And who wouldn’t say that Jesus BECAME a wonderful Counsellor ... see, all that Isaiah prophesied are things Jesus ‘SHALL BE CALLED’.

If Jesus was pre-existent, as trinity falsely claims, then Jesus would not be PROPHESIED to BECOME SO... it wouldn’t even need a prophesy. It would simply say that:
  • ‘The son given IS .... .... ..... ......’
Trinitarians, don’t give up your day jobs!!
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
I believe that is not true.

Isa. 9:6 For to us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government shall be upon 4 his shoulder, and his name shall be called 5 Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

Father:
Everlasting Father

Son: Prince of Peace

Paraclete (Holy Spirit): Wonderful Counselor
To call the Son the Father is not Trinitarianism; it's Modalism.

BTW, this verse is not about the Messiah at all. It's historical and is about King Hezekiah. A much better translation is, "His name shall be called, A wonderful counselor is the mighty God, the Everlasting Father is the Prince of Peace."

Christians have an overwhelming tendency to see messianic verses where there are none. Like I've heard some Christians say, "Jesus is on every page." This is obviously nonsense.
 

Riders

Well-Known Member
To call the Son the Father is not Trinitarianism; it's Modalism.

BTW, this verse is not about the Messiah at all. It's historical and is about King Hezekiah. A much better translation is, "His name shall be called, A wonderful counselor is the mighty God, the Everlasting Father is the Prince of Peace."

Christians have an overwhelming tendency to see messianic verses where there are none. Like I've heard some Christians say, "Jesus is on every page." This is obviously nonsense.

Very insightful remarks thanks!
 

Soapy

Son of his Father: The Heir and Prince
’For to us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government shall be upon his shoulder, and his name shall be called, “Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.”’
Can someone break down this verse and explain what it is exactly stating?

Im going to add some pointers to dissuade nonsense responses:
  1. What is a ‘Wonderful Counselor’... A ‘Counselor’ is a person who gives lawful advice, guidance, and directions
  2. The title, ‘God’, is a reference to an entity that is the greatest, the most revered, a heroic figure, rule maker/keeper, the majestic, and sovereign.. in a contextual setting. A Judge*, for example, is ‘GOD’ in his courtroom. The context is ‘HIS courtroom’.
  3. AT THE LAST JUDGEMENT... Jesus gives EVERLASTING LIFE to those whom he ‘JUDGES’* as being worthy. The title, ‘Father’, means, ‘He who gives life to ...’ Thus giving ‘Everlasting life’ means being an ‘Everlasting FATHER’
  4. Why is this Son ONLY a PRINCE of Peace? Who then is the KING of Peace?
Thank you.
 

moorea944

Well-Known Member
I believe that is not true.

Isa. 9:6 For to us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government shall be upon 4 his shoulder, and his name shall be called 5 Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

Father:
Everlasting Father

Son: Prince of Peace

Paraclete (Holy Spirit): Wonderful Counselor

First of all, this is a future prophecy of the return of Christ, not while he was here on earth the first time.

So your also saying that because it says "Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father and Prince of Peace.... that makes Jesus God? Why?
 

Soapy

Son of his Father: The Heir and Prince
First of all, this is a future prophecy of the return of Christ, not while he was here on earth the first time.

So your also saying that because it says "Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father and Prince of Peace.... that makes Jesus God? Why?
Good question.., for certainly God is not a Prince!!
 

TrueBeliever37

Well-Known Member
First of all, this is a future prophecy of the return of Christ, not while he was here on earth the first time.

So your also saying that because it says "Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father and Prince of Peace.... that makes Jesus God? Why?

Hi moorea,

Isn't it God sitting on the throne judging in Revelation 20:11-15? (also Revelation 21:5-7)

Now I ask you who is going to judge us? 2 Timothy 4:1

Who's judgement seat will we stand before? Romans 14:10-12 - and who did it say he was in verse 12? (also 2 Corinthians 5:10)

That being the case, who is it that John sees sitting on the throne judging in Revelation 20:11-15 ? (Remember John couldn't see an invisible Spirit could he?)
 
Last edited:

Soapy

Son of his Father: The Heir and Prince
Hi moorea,

Isn't it God sitting on the throne judging in Revelation 20:11-15? (also Revelation 21:5-7)

Now I ask you who is going to judge us? 2 Timothy 4:1

Who's judgement seat will we stand before? Romans 14:10-12 - and who did it say he was in verse 12? (also 2 Corinthians 5:10)

That being the case, who is it that John sees sitting on the throne judging in Revelation 20:11-15 ? (Remember John couldn't see an invisible Spirit could he?)
Hi, I’ve just read the verses you quoted.

The verses do not say that it is God, who sits on the throne, who judges.

We know that it is Jesus who does the judging:
  • ‘For God has put all judgement into his [Jesus’] hands’ (John 5:22)
The resurrected people stand before God, who sits on the throne, but it is the Lamb of God who judges them.

The Lamb of God is not the one who is seated on the throne (‘Him that says on the throne’)

I haven’t check all the verses but when God speaks he is addressed as Her who sits on the throne’ or Her who sat on the throne’.

But concerning Jesus (and the angel), the reference says, ‘He’.
The ‘He’ is not a continuation of the reference to the one sitting on the throne (YHWH: Almighty God).


 

TrueBeliever37

Well-Known Member
Hi, I’ve just read the verses you quoted.

The verses do not say that it is God, who sits on the throne, who judges.

We know that it is Jesus who does the judging:
  • ‘For God has put all judgement into his [Jesus’] hands’ (John 5:22)
The resurrected people stand before God, who sits on the throne, but it is the Lamb of God who judges them.

The Lamb of God is not the one who is seated on the throne (‘Him that says on the throne’)

I haven’t check all the verses but when God speaks he is addressed as Her who sits on the throne’ or Her who sat on the throne’.

But concerning Jesus (and the angel), the reference says, ‘He’.
The ‘He’ is not a continuation of the reference to the one sitting on the throne (YHWH: Almighty God).

How is verse 12 not saying it is God they are standing before in the judgement in Revelation 20:11-15? And how is verse 7 in Revelation 21:5-7 not letting you know the one on the throne is God? (You make statements that just aren't accurate.)

And when you make claims - why don't you back them up with some proof?
Show where he is ever addressed as HER in the scriptures.

The one on the throne is judging mankind. We know that the Messiah was going to be the judge. So he has to be the one on the throne judging, in his resurrected glorified body. How could John be seeing a Spirit who is invisible? (Your answer ignored this question)

(As I have discussed with you in other posts - YHWH manifested himself as the Messiah) And after he did the job, and shed his blood for sins, he raised the body up a permanent glorified spiritual body, ascended and took the throne. And he will rule forever. There will be no end to his kingdom or rule.
 
Last edited:

Soapy

Son of his Father: The Heir and Prince
How is verse 12 not saying it is God they are standing before in the judgement in Revelation 20:11-15? And how is verse 7 in Revelation 21:5-7 not letting you know the one on the throne is God? (You make statements that just aren't accurate.)

And when you make claims - why don't you back them up with some proof?
Show where he is ever addressed as HER in the scriptures.

The one on the throne is judging mankind. We know that the Messiah was going to be the judge. So he has to be the one on the throne judging, in his resurrected glorified body. How could John be seeing a Spirit who is invisible? (Your answer ignored this question)

(As I have discussed with you in other posts - YHWH manifested himself as the Messiah) And after he did the job, and shed his blood for sins, he raised the body up a permanent glorified spiritual body, ascended and took the throne. And he will rule forever. There will be no end to his kingdom or rule.
The ‘her’ is clearly an error... when I use single quote the end quote sign turns into a character I did not intend. You should know that I meant ‘He’... (it just happened again but I caught it... ‘He’ turned into Her because of the auto spell checker on my iPhone. I don’t always notice when I’m typing so stop having a go at simple innocuous errors... am I the only one who misspells a word??? Even a misspelling that isn’t directly my own fault???
I do not, nor does anyone of any credible reasoning, express Jesus Christ as ‘HER’... You are just looking for something to say against me because you cannot find any fault otherwise!!

So, as phar-as-I-see, Jesus is clearly a MAN, MALE... it’s really so Sad-u-see...that you should pick this as a proof that I cannot express scriptures in truth.

How is verse 12 not saying it is God they are standing before in the judgement in Revelation 20:11-15? And how is verse 7 in Revelation 21:5-7not letting you know the one on the throne is God? (You make statements that just aren't accurate.)
The verses state that John saw (IN SPIRITUAL VISION... not in physical sight!!) a great white throne and ‘Him who sat upon it’. Then the dead were brought before the throne and were judged. IT DOES NOT SAY THAT IT WAS ‘Him who sat on the throne’ WHO JUDGED THEM...

And when you make claims - why don't you back them up with some proof?
I would like to think I present every proof going as to justify what I’m saying. Perhaps it is the reader of what I say who cannot accept the proof did to their own inability to understand the points they are debating. If you read my previous posts you will find no discrepancies between anything I said before, said now, or will say in the future. It’s not stubbornness, it’s a what Scriptures says... and, as Jesus says, ‘Scriptures cannot be broken’ (John 10:35)

The one on the throne is judging mankind. We know that the Messiah was going to be the judge.
I agree that the messiah becomes the judge... agreed!!! But REVELATION is a SYMBOLIC VISION. Do not mistake SYMBOLIC scenes with REAL scenes...!!
So he has to be the one on the throne judging, in his resurrected glorified body.
Tut tut tut... DOES HE HAVE TO BE? I read a questioning voice in you here!!! Not so sure, are you??
How could John be seeing a Spirit who is invisible? (Your answer ignored this question)
You expose your ignorance here again, friend!!! John is seeing IN SPIRITUAL VISION... just as Stephen, being stoned (!!!??) saw IN VISION Heaven open and saw ALMIGHTY GOD SEATED on the throne and JESUS STANDING NEXT TO HIM.

(As I have discussed with you in other posts - YHWH manifested himself as the Messiah) And after he did the job, and shed his blood for sins, he raised the body up a permanent glorified spiritual body, ascended and took the throne. And he will rule forever. There will be no end to his kingdom or rule.
 

TrueBeliever37

Well-Known Member
So, as phar-as-I-see, Jesus is clearly a MAN, MALE... it’s really so Sad-u-see...that you should pick this as a proof that I cannot express scriptures in truth.

The verses state that John saw (IN SPIRITUAL VISION... not in physical sight!!) a great white throne and ‘Him who sat upon it’. Then the dead were brought before the throne and were judged. IT DOES NOT SAY THAT IT WAS ‘Him who sat on the throne’ WHO JUDGED THEM...

I would like to think I present every proof going as to justify what I’m saying. Perhaps it is the reader of what I say who cannot accept the proof did to their own inability to understand the points they are debating. If you read my previous posts you will find no discrepancies between anything I said before, said now, or will say in the future. It’s not stubbornness, it’s a what Scriptures says... and, as Jesus says, ‘Scriptures cannot be broken’ (John 10:35)


I agree that the messiah becomes the judge... agreed!!! But REVELATION is a SYMBOLIC VISION. Do not mistake SYMBOLIC scenes with REAL scenes...!!
Tut tut tut... DOES HE HAVE TO BE? I read a questioning voice in you here!!! Not so sure, are you??
You expose your ignorance here again, friend!!! John is seeing IN SPIRITUAL VISION... just as Stephen, being stoned (!!!??) saw IN VISION Heaven open and saw ALMIGHTY GOD SEATED on the throne and JESUS STANDING NEXT TO HIM.
If you had a typo - you can just say so. I accept that. Please refer to where the verses you are quoting from, are in the scriptures. (So I don't have to search for the verses you use.)

I'm not saying it wasn't the body of a man. But you say he was just a man. #1) Explain how he came down from heaven. John 6:38

#2) Explain why it says in Acts 20:28 - feed the church of God which he hath purchased with his own blood. (Don't try to say God is not in the Greek. It is in some of the oldest manuscripts.) It also has "God" in the Aramaic Pe****to manuscripts.

#3) Who is it talking in Revelation 22:12-13 saying he is coming soon, and that he is the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end and the first and the last? If you are not sure who is coming soon - look at verse 20. Revelation 22:20

Now in Revelation 21:5-7 Who is it sitting on the throne, saying he is the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end? (note verse 7 about being God)

#4) Look at the Greek. "hand" is not in the verses about Steven. He is not standing or sitting at the right hand of anyone. Trinitarian translators have added those words in, wanting it to look like more than one person. How can you stand on the right hand side of a Spirit that fills the heaven and the earth? He was standing in his right as God.
 
Last edited:

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
The issue of "right hand" is symbolic for extreme fondness, versus the left hand which was one's "potty hand".

Hey, toilet paper is really quite a relatively recent invention, plus there's not that many leaves to be found in a desert or semi-arid area. Just make sure you cut your fingernails short on that hand. :shrug:
 

TrueBeliever37

Well-Known Member
The issue of "right hand" is symbolic for extreme fondness, versus the left hand which was one's "potty hand".

Hey, toilet paper is really quite a relatively recent invention, plus there's not that many leaves to be found in a desert or semi-arid area. Just make sure you cut your fingernails short on that hand. :shrug:

"right hand" is also a Hebrew idiom for power.
 
Top