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Modern Churches not operating gifts of the Spirit.

Nova2216

Active Member
The Holy Spirit does nothing "to us" today.

The Holy Spirit does things "for us" according to (Rom.8:26-28).

26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God. 28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
 

74x12

Well-Known Member
Great post, thanks.

Just also want to add... most of these churches that say that they can do miracles, why is it done only in there church? Why cant they go outside into the streets and heal people? The apostles did..... Even their shadows healed people. (Acts 5). How come we dont see that today? When was the last time we saw on the news, a pastor or church elder walk to church and heal someone on the way? We dont....

The HS gifts died out with the apostles. We dont need them anymore, we have the scriptures now.
Jesus said search the scriptures for in them you think you have eternal life, but they are they that speak of me.

The point of the scriptures is to bring you to God; not to replace your need for His provision and deliverance and miraculous intervention in your life.

God has given power to the church and we should be using that power to truly shine the light of God as it ought to be shone and without that then people's faith is on shaky ground because they have never experienced the power of God for themselves.
So they must just believe other people.
In fact Jesus the Son of man was given all power in heaven and in earth and so through Him we have access to all power.
For, everything Jesus receives from the Father, He received for our benefit.
 

Nova2216

Active Member
If I was a Charismatic (or Pentecostal) during this Covid-19 outbreak I would be out looking for those infected so I could heal them with the power of God.

Do you know anyone who has enough faith in the healing power of the Lord to do such a thing?

If so, how many have they healed?


The Pentecostals are taking heat during this Covid -19 outbreak.

Where is the beef?


Thanks
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
Metis said -"Also, just a reminder that the Bible that most use today was chosen in the 4th century by the Church, thus long after the Apostles were gone."


Nova2216 Posted -

The Muratorian Fragment
(about A.D. 170)

Muratorian FragmentThe Muratorian Fragment is the oldest known list of New Testament books. It was discovered by Ludovico Antonio Muratori in a manuscript in the Ambrosian Library in Milan, and published by him in 1740. * It is called a fragment because the beginning of it is missing. Although the manuscript in which it appears was copied during the seventh century, the list itself is dated to about 170 because its author refers to the episcopate of Pius I of Rome (died 157) as recent.


The Muratorian Fragment
There were different canons scattered throughout the Mediterranean region, including northern Africa and as far east as Iran. A great many of them did not include what's in the most widely used canon today that was chosen by over 1000 bishops in the 4th century.

A large part of the reason for the selection of this canon that most use today was because there were so many books that said many different things that we highly conjectural. Plus, there were various "heresies" floating around with many of them claiming that they had the right books and many books we have in the canon today that we use were simply wrong.

Thus, the purpose of the selection of the widely used canon was to go after the books that were generally agreed upon as being linked back to the apostles and their appointees, thus eliminating most others. This was a difficult and time-consuming process that took over 50 years, and numerous books were undecided upon at that date, and we call those the "Apocrypha".

BTW, thanks for the link.
 

Redemptionsong

Well-Known Member
If I was a Charismatic (or Pentecostal) during this Covid-19 outbreak I would be out looking for those infected so I could heal them with the power of God.

Do you know anyone who has enough faith in the healing power of the Lord to do such a thing?

If so, how many have they healed?


The Pentecostals are taking heat during this Covid -19 outbreak.

Where is the beef?


Thanks

Healing comes from the Lord, and it is wrong to suggest that Pentecostals go out looking to heal people in a manner divorced from the Gospel. All who have not heard the Gospel need to know that Jesus Christ lives, and that He continues to heal and deliver, just as He did during his earthly ministry.

I have no doubt that healing of Covid-19 has taken place in many places around the world, through the prayers of the faithful. Jesus healed lepers in his own day, as in Luke 17:11-18, and it was not necessary for them to touch him physically to be healed.

Oral Roberts often talked about the 'point of contact' in his healing ministry. He meant by this something you do to release faith and power, which he felt through his right hand. And, whilst the use of hands is a very common 'point of contact' in healing and miracles, it is not the only one mentioned in scripture. One could also include Moses' rod, Samuel's horn of oil, David's slingshot, Peter's shadow, and the handkerchief of Paul.

The question I would ask you, in response to this criticism, is 'How many people who contracted Covid-19, that you know of, sought healing from Jesus Christ and were not healed?'
 

Nova2216

Active Member
Healing comes from the Lord, and it is wrong to suggest that Pentecostals go out looking to heal people in a manner divorced from the Gospel. All who have not heard the Gospel need to know that Jesus Christ lives, and that He continues to heal and deliver, just as He did during his earthly ministry.

I have no doubt that healing of Covid-19 has taken place in many places around the world, through the prayers of the faithful. Jesus healed lepers in his own day, as in Luke 17:11-18, and it was not necessary for them to touch him physically to be healed.

Oral Roberts often talked about the 'point of contact' in his healing ministry. He meant by this something you do to release faith and power, which he felt through his right hand. And, whilst the use of hands is a very common 'point of contact' in healing and miracles, it is not the only one mentioned in scripture. One could also include Moses' rod, Samuel's horn of oil, David's slingshot, Peter's shadow, and the handkerchief of Paul.

The question I would ask you, in response to this criticism, is 'How many people who contracted Covid-19, that you know of, sought healing from Jesus Christ and were not healed?'


Hello, since you brought up Oral Roberts allow me to make my point this way.

Oral Roberts said God told him he would die if he did not raise alot of money. I think Mr. Roberts was going to build a hospital with the money.

#1. If we die and we are faithful, we go to heaven.

We win, right!


#2. If you can do miracles why do you need a Hospital?


If you have been healed miraculously I should not hear you speak of a doctor or a Hospital. If you do need a doctor or a Hospital then you were not healed miraculously.


Thanks
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
Philippians 2:27 someone with Paul was sick near death. Why didn't Paul just wave his hand and heal him before it got serious; if it's like you think that an apostle can instantly heal whenever he wants? The fact is that healing doesn't work like what you say. Miracles don't happen even for apostles on command. But in God's timing. Many people do get healed in hospitals.

AFAIK there were physicians in ancient times but no hospitals. Like today, people sought to be made well back then, and even spent large amounts of money in the process, but their treatments often failed to bring about a cure. No so with Jesus and the apostles....

Matthew 9:35..."And Jesus went throughout all the cities and villages, teaching in their synagogues and proclaiming the gospel of the kingdom and healing every disease and every affliction."

Acts 5:114-16...
"And more than ever believers were added to the Lord, multitudes of both men and women, 15 so that they even carried out the sick into the streets and laid them on cots and mats, that as Peter came by at least his shadow might fall on some of them. 16 The people also gathered from the towns around Jerusalem, bringing the sick and those afflicted with unclean spirits, and they were all healed."

Matthew 11:4-5...
"And Jesus answered them, “Go and tell John what you hear and see: 5 the blind receive their sight and the lame walk, lepers are cleansed and the deaf hear, and the dead are raised up, and the poor have good news preached to them."

Do you really think that we see the same "spirit" at work today? Or is it a watered down, half baked, rather inept version that, in many cases, can be attributed to the placebo effect?

If faith healing today mirrored the healing works of the first century, there would be no need of hospitals or doctors for that matter. All you would need is one faithful person with the gifts in each hospital. Interestingly, the beneficiaries of the miracles were never the apostles themselves. They were apparently not to use the gifts on themselves, but to convince unbelievers to come to Christ. The tongues were for the benefit of foreigners who had come to Jerusalem for the festival. Each heard the Christian message in their own language.

And since they were also raising the dead, when has that happened in modern times? It would make front page news! It would certainly take the wind out of the CV19 pandemic's sails if the dead could be brought back to life.....don't you think?

Besides, not everyone has faith to be healed; so they need hospitals. Luke was a physician. (Colossians 4:14)

It was asked of some by Jesus and his apostles if the ones they were going to cure had faith....but really, it wasn't the faith of the afflicted one that was important...it was the faith of the healer.

The Cyclopedia of Biblical, Theological, and Ecclesiastical Literature by McClintock and Strong (Volume VI, page 320) observes that it is “an uncontested statement that during the first hundred years after the death of the apostles we hear little or nothing of the working of miracles by the early Christians.”

The gifts were only in operation whilst the apostles were alive....they died with them, since it was only the apostles who could pass on those gifts.

In our day it is a blessing that the gifts are no longer applied, because the charlatans are a dime a dozen. It means that "tricks" performed by the devil would be hard to tell from the authentic gifts of God.

The apostle Paul warned....
"The coming of the lawless one is by the activity of Satan with all power and false signs and wonders, 10 and with all wicked deception for those who are perishing, because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. 11 Therefore God sends them a strong delusion, so that they may believe what is false, 12 in order that all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness." (2 Thessalonians 2:9-12)

Modern day "miracles" are a trap for spiritual infants....."But if there are gifts of prophecy, they will be done away with; if there are tongues, they will cease . . . .When I was a child, I used to speak as a child, to think as a child, to reason as a child; but now that I have become a man, I have done away with the traits of a child. . . .Now, however, these three remain: faith, hope, love; but the greatest of these is love." (1 Corinthians 13:8-13; John 13:34-35)

So from the scriptures we see that the identifying marks of a mature Christian today are, "faith, hope and love".....not miracles.
 

Redemptionsong

Well-Known Member
Hello, since you brought up Oral Roberts allow me to make my point this way.

Oral Roberts said God told him he would die if he did not raise alot of money. I think Mr. Roberts was going to build a hospital with the money.

#1. If we die and we are faithful, we go to heaven.

We win, right!


#2. If you can do miracles why do you need a Hospital?


If you have been healed miraculously I should not hear you speak of a doctor or a Hospital. If you do need a doctor or a Hospital then you were not healed miraculously.


Thanks

Oral Roberts, like most Christians who believe in God's power to heal, did not object to medical science. The kind of things that Oral Roberts prayed for during his crusades were invariably ailments that the medical profession had been unable to cure. Often, when a healing was manifest, Oral Roberts would advise the patient to return to their doctor or hospital to confirm that the healing was sound.

And, of course, Oral Roberts is one of many thousands who have had a healing ministry in the Lord. I particularly like the testimonies provided by Smith Wigglesworth, Mrs Woodworth-Etter, John.G.Lake, Kathryn Kuhlman and Stephen Jeffreys - but the list is extensive and there are many more recent examples.

I was instantly healed of back trouble by a simple prayer of faith from a Pentecostal pastor, and have since seen many others healed of their ailments through my prayers. But, there have also been times when my prayers have not been answered, and in these cases I can only say that I played my part as far as my faith allowed. The thing to realize is that even a set-back can, with wisdom, be seen as a stepping-stone in one's maturity and faith in Christ.

The starting point for any healing ministry must be an acknowledgment that healing is available, and that the message of the Bible is true.

As Paul says in 1 Corinthians 2:4,5, 'And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power: That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.'
 

Nova2216

Active Member
All the gifts (miracles) were to "confirm the word" in the first century (Mark 16:20) (Heb,2:3,4). Why? B/c they had no bibles then.

20 And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and "confirming the word" with signs following. Amen.

3 How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him; 4 God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will?



Once the word of God has been "confirmed" it is approved by God for all time. There is no need for the word to be confirmed each time a preacher teaches. We just open our bible to see if a speaker harmonizes with the bible (1Jn 4:1) (1Peter 4:11).

1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. 2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: (1Jn 4:1)

If we miss this biblical principle we end up with people thinking miracles can be done today. The power is now in the word (Rom.1:16).

Do not forget (Ac.8:17-19) which teaches that only an original apostle could pass the gifts on to another person.

17 Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost. 18 And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money, 19 Saying, Give me also this power, that on whomsoever I lay hands, he may receive the Holy Ghost.


What happens when those 12 original apostles die?

The gifts soon after their deaths ceased. (1Cor.13:8-10) (Eph.4:12-15)


Thanks
 

TrueBeliever37

Well-Known Member
74x12 said - "Jesus claimed whoever believes in Him will do even greater works than He did. (John 14:12)"

Me - Jesus healed people and raised the dead. Jesus walked on water.


Please tell me what "works" would be "greater' than those Jesus done?


Thanks
Helping someone know what to do to be saved eternally, is greater than healing them of a fever, or even raising them from the dead to die again.
 

TrueBeliever37

Well-Known Member
All the gifts (miracles) were to "confirm the word" in the first century (Mark 16:20) (Heb,2:3,4). Why? B/c they had no bibles then.

20 And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and "confirming the word" with signs following. Amen.

3 How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him; 4 God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will?



Once the word of God has been "confirmed" it is approved by God for all time. There is no need for the word to be confirmed each time a preacher teaches. We just open our bible to see if a speaker harmonizes with the bible (1Jn 4:1) (1Peter 4:11).

1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. 2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: (1Jn 4:1)

If we miss this biblical principle we end up with people thinking miracles can be done today. The power is now in the word (Rom.1:16).

Do not forget (Ac.8:17-19) which teaches that only an original apostle could pass the gifts on to another person.

17 Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost. 18 And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money, 19 Saying, Give me also this power, that on whomsoever I lay hands, he may receive the Holy Ghost.


What happens when those 12 original apostles die?

The gifts soon after their deaths ceased. (1Cor.13:8-10) (Eph.4:12-15)


Thanks

The gifts haven't ceased. In the verses you referenced above, it says tongues will cease, not that they have ceased. It also says knowledge will vanish away, but it hasn't yet.

It says we know in part and we prophesy in part. v10 ... then that which is in part will be done away. v12. ...Now I know in part, but then I shall know just as I am also known. Knowledge hasn't been done away with, and neither has prophecy. 1 Corinthians 13:8-10

The gifts are for the perfecting of the saints, and for the edifying of the body (the church) of Messiah, till we reach these things mentioned in verse 13 - which we are still working toward. We haven't been perfected yet. Ephesians 4:11-15
 

TrueBeliever37

Well-Known Member
If I was a Charismatic (or Pentecostal) during this Covid-19 outbreak I would be out looking for those infected so I could heal them with the power of God.

Do you know anyone who has enough faith in the healing power of the Lord to do such a thing?

If so, how many have they healed?


The Pentecostals are taking heat during this Covid -19 outbreak.

Where is the beef?


Thanks

God doesn't heal on command. He is not a puppet. Paul had a thorn in his flesh, and prayed 3 times that it be removed. Sometimes it is not God's will to heal for whatever reason.

Maybe God is trying to get peoples attention with this. To get them to serve him. Giving them a warning that life isn't guaranteed. He is coming soon and wants them to prepare to meet him. Where we spend eternity is much more important than some suffering in this life.
 
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Redemptionsong

Well-Known Member
AFAIK there were physicians in ancient times but no hospitals. Like today, people sought to be made well back then, and even spent large amounts of money in the process, but their treatments often failed to bring about a cure. No so with Jesus and the apostles....

Matthew 9:35..."And Jesus went throughout all the cities and villages, teaching in their synagogues and proclaiming the gospel of the kingdom and healing every disease and every affliction."

Acts 5:114-16...
"And more than ever believers were added to the Lord, multitudes of both men and women, 15 so that they even carried out the sick into the streets and laid them on cots and mats, that as Peter came by at least his shadow might fall on some of them. 16 The people also gathered from the towns around Jerusalem, bringing the sick and those afflicted with unclean spirits, and they were all healed."

Matthew 11:4-5...
"And Jesus answered them, “Go and tell John what you hear and see: 5 the blind receive their sight and the lame walk, lepers are cleansed and the deaf hear, and the dead are raised up, and the poor have good news preached to them."

Do you really think that we see the same "spirit" at work today? Or is it a watered down, half baked, rather inept version that, in many cases, can be attributed to the placebo effect?

If faith healing today mirrored the healing works of the first century, there would be no need of hospitals or doctors for that matter. All you would need is one faithful person with the gifts in each hospital. Interestingly, the beneficiaries of the miracles were never the apostles themselves. They were apparently not to use the gifts on themselves, but to convince unbelievers to come to Christ. The tongues were for the benefit of foreigners who had come to Jerusalem for the festival. Each heard the Christian message in their own language.

And since they were also raising the dead, when has that happened in modern times? It would make front page news! It would certainly take the wind out of the CV19 pandemic's sails if the dead could be brought back to life.....don't you think?



It was asked of some by Jesus and his apostles if the ones they were going to cure had faith....but really, it wasn't the faith of the afflicted one that was important...it was the faith of the healer.

The Cyclopedia of Biblical, Theological, and Ecclesiastical Literature by McClintock and Strong (Volume VI, page 320) observes that it is “an uncontested statement that during the first hundred years after the death of the apostles we hear little or nothing of the working of miracles by the early Christians.”

The gifts were only in operation whilst the apostles were alive....they died with them, since it was only the apostles who could pass on those gifts.

In our day it is a blessing that the gifts are no longer applied, because the charlatans are a dime a dozen. It means that "tricks" performed by the devil would be hard to tell from the authentic gifts of God.

The apostle Paul warned....
"The coming of the lawless one is by the activity of Satan with all power and false signs and wonders, 10 and with all wicked deception for those who are perishing, because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. 11 Therefore God sends them a strong delusion, so that they may believe what is false, 12 in order that all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness." (2 Thessalonians 2:9-12)

Modern day "miracles" are a trap for spiritual infants....."But if there are gifts of prophecy, they will be done away with; if there are tongues, they will cease . . . .When I was a child, I used to speak as a child, to think as a child, to reason as a child; but now that I have become a man, I have done away with the traits of a child. . . .Now, however, these three remain: faith, hope, love; but the greatest of these is love." (1 Corinthians 13:8-13; John 13:34-35)

So from the scriptures we see that the identifying marks of a mature Christian today are, "faith, hope and love".....not miracles.

To argue that a mature Christian should follow faith, hope and love and ignore the healing ministry does not make any sense.

Without works, faith is dead, says James. The same writer leaves us with this thought: 'Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord: And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him. Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.'

Without healing some people will live their lives without hope of relief from pain and suffering. We may all have a hope of rest in the life to come, but there is also good reason to have hope in this life, too.

It's an expression of God's love for his children that he heals, and alters circumstances for the better. We can demonstrate love through service, and watch a person die. Or we can demonstrate love through service and watch a person recover. Which is better?

The Church Age began at Pentecost and continues until the return of Christ. In all likelihood this period will be around two thousand years. Since the first outpouring of the Holy Spirit, Pentecostal experiences have continued, and it's a nonsense to suggest that the gift of the Holy Spirit, through whom healing power is manifested, was retracted by God. Church history provides examples of the fire of the Holy Spirit burning in every century, even when faith for healing and miracles was not widely preached by Church authorities.
 
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moorea944

Well-Known Member
The gifts haven't ceased. In the verses you referenced above, it says tongues will cease, not that they have ceased. It also says knowledge will vanish away, but it hasn't yet.

It says we know in part and we prophesy in part. v10 ... then that which is in part will be done away. v12. ...Now I know in part, but then I shall know just as I am also known. Knowledge hasn't been done away with, and neither has prophecy. 1 Corinthians 13:8-10

The gifts are for the perfecting of the saints, and for the edifying of the body (the church) of Messiah, till we reach these things mentioned in verse 13 - which we are still working toward. We haven't been perfected yet. Ephesians 4:11-15

[The gifts haven't ceased. In the verses you referenced above, it says tongues will cease, not that they have ceased. It also says knowledge will vanish away, but it hasn't yet.]
Gifts have ceased, we dont need them anymore. No one speaks in tongues anymore too. When it talks about knowledge will vanish away, it's talking about the world. Scripture tells us that before the return of our Lord, people will really start going away from God. Human nature doesnt naturally go towards God. It will get worse.

[It says we know in part and we prophesy in part. v10 ... then that which is in part will be done away. v12. ...Now I know in part, but then I shall know just as I am also known. Knowledge hasn't been done away with, and neither has prophecy. 1 Corinthians 13:8-10]
v 10 "But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away" You left some things out.... Verse 10 is talking about the complete bible or scriptures. God's Word is perfect and it is in the bible. The bible, which is perfect, is God's Word. There are no errors in scripture, but there are errors in the translations.... There is no reason for the "Holy Spirit Gifts" to be here. Scripture tell us that it has ceased.


[The gifts are for the perfecting of the saints, and for the edifying of the body (the church) of Messiah, till we reach these things mentioned in verse 13 - which we are still working toward. We haven't been perfected yet. Ephesians 4:11-15]
"Till we all come in the unity of faith." He's talking about his day and age for the apostles and saints. Being of one mind.

How come, and I said this before, we dont see miracles on the news or papers or the street on people healing and speaking in tongues? We only see things like that in their own church with their own people. If.... they did actually have the Holy Spirit Gifts, everyone... would see them do miracles!!! Everyone!! They would be walking around the city curing people and talking to people in their own languages. How come we dont see that? Are they embarrassed to go outside and test their powers? Think about it....
 

TrueBeliever37

Well-Known Member
[The gifts haven't ceased. In the verses you referenced above, it says tongues will cease, not that they have ceased. It also says knowledge will vanish away, but it hasn't yet.]
Gifts have ceased, we dont need them anymore. No one speaks in tongues anymore too. When it talks about knowledge will vanish away, it's talking about the world. Scripture tells us that before the return of our Lord, people will really start going away from God. Human nature doesnt naturally go towards God. It will get worse.

[It says we know in part and we prophesy in part. v10 ... then that which is in part will be done away. v12. ...Now I know in part, but then I shall know just as I am also known. Knowledge hasn't been done away with, and neither has prophecy. 1 Corinthians 13:8-10]
v 10 "But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away" You left some things out.... Verse 10 is talking about the complete bible or scriptures. God's Word is perfect and it is in the bible. The bible, which is perfect, is God's Word. There are no errors in scripture, but there are errors in the translations.... There is no reason for the "Holy Spirit Gifts" to be here. Scripture tell us that it has ceased.


[The gifts are for the perfecting of the saints, and for the edifying of the body (the church) of Messiah, till we reach these things mentioned in verse 13 - which we are still working toward. We haven't been perfected yet. Ephesians 4:11-15]
"Till we all come in the unity of faith." He's talking about his day and age for the apostles and saints. Being of one mind.

How come, and I said this before, we dont see miracles on the news or papers or the street on people healing and speaking in tongues? We only see things like that in their own church with their own people. If.... they did actually have the Holy Spirit Gifts, everyone... would see them do miracles!!! Everyone!! They would be walking around the city curing people and talking to people in their own languages. How come we dont see that? Are they embarrassed to go outside and test their powers? Think about it....

My point was that it says:
we know in part
and we prophesy in part
You are saying that what was "in part" was done away with when the perfect word came - right? For that to be what it means, would require knowledge to have ceased also. (because both knowledge and prophecy are in part) Is that what you are going to say - that knowledge and prophesy have both ceased?

Sorry but we still only know in part. When those things have ceased, then we will know fully as we are known.

As far as healing. I know God can heal from personal experience. I have seen him heal others, and he has healed me personally before. So you aren't going to be able to convince me he doesn't heal. But he doesn't heal every time, and he doesn't heal on command. Even the Messiah himself didn't heal people at times because of their unbelief.
 
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Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
To argue that a mature Christian should follow faith, hope and love and ignore the healing ministry does not make any sense.

It makes perfect sense if you understand why the gifts were given in the first place....and what they meant.
In its infancy, Christianity depended, not just on the words of Jesus and his apostles, but on a clear demonstration from God that he was backing this new arrangement. When Jesus spoke about the coming of his kingdom, he said that it would see the end of all suffering, sickness and even death. The gifts of God’s spirit were a limited demonstration of what the rulership of his kingdom, under the leadership of his son, would bring to redeemed mankind.

Without works, faith is dead, says James. The same writer leaves us with this thought: 'Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord: And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him. Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.'

Just as there is spiritual death, there is also spiritual sickness. This is what James was talking about. By following those recommendations, a spiritually ailing person can be raised out of the kind of “sickness” that causes spiritual death.

Sickness, suffering and death have plagued mankind from the beginning, but where is God among those who are suffering today, many of whom identify as Christians? If all who came to Jesus and the apostles were cured, why do we not see the same success rate today?

As you can see from the scriptures, there were no failures in the first century, and no one went home without being 100% cured. That does not happen today. Failures cause people to lose their faith, not enhance it. They are made to feel like God has rejected them.....that they didn’t have enough faith.....but that was not the case originally. Please think about that.

Without healing some people will live their lives without hope of relief from pain and suffering. We may all have a hope of rest in the life to come, but there is also good reason to have hope in this life, too.

The hope that the first Christians entertained, is the same hope that we have today. It doesn’t mean going to heaven, because that destination is not open to mankind in general....it never was.

Only those chosen for rulership positions with Jesus will go to heaven....that opportunity was not opened up until he returned to heaven. And since it is God who chooses them, no one one can claim to be part of that arrangement unless they have that anointing. (Revelation 20:6) Their role is that of rulers and priests....so who do they rule and for whom do they act as priests?

Revelation 21:2-4 answers.....
“And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Behold, the dwelling place of God is with man. He will dwell with them, and they will be his people, and God himself will be with them as their God. He will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain anymore, for the former things have passed away.” (ESV)

“New Jerusalem” is God’s Kingdom, just as original Jerusalem was the site of God’s Kingdom on earth...the location of his Temple. This “heavenly Jerusalem” will rule the whole earth.....bringing the blessings mentioned there to redeemed mankind. No one has to wait for those blessings longer than their own lifetime. Death is nothing more than a restful sleep in the grave, awaiting Jesus’ call to awaken. (John 5:28-29) He calls the dead from their graves, not from heaven. Where was Lazarus when Jesus raised him?

It's an expression of God's love for his children that he heals, and alters circumstances for the better. We can demonstrate love through service, and watch a person die. Or we can demonstrate love through service and watch a person recover. Which is better?

You seem to eliminate all those who suffer ill health despite being devoted servants of God. The apostle Paul as well as Timothy had physical health problems but were not healed even though they could heal others. Besides which fact, that everyone dies sooner or later......where are the resurrections? Why did Jesus bring Lazarus back from the dead if he had gone to a better place?

The Church Age began at Pentecost and continues until the return of Christ. In all likelihood this period will be around two thousand years. Since the first outpouring of the Holy Spirit, Pentecostal experiences have continued, and it's a nonsense to suggest that the gift of the Holy Spirit, through whom healing power is manifested, was retracted by God. Church history provides examples of the fire of the Holy Spirit burning in every century, even when faith for healing and miracles was not widely preached by Church authorities.

Paul clearly stated that the gifts would cease....but the Bible indicates that they would continue, albeit imperfectly, by the devil to fool people into believing that his fake form of Christianity (foretold by Jesus) was the real thing. (2 Thessalonians 2:9-12)

Realising that all Christianity is not genuine should make us scrutinise the teachings of any denomination that claims to be the real thing. Comparing their beliefs and conduct with what Jesus taught makes it simple. He foretold that “many” would claim Jesus as their Lord, but that when he comes as judge, he will reject them outright for the frauds they have proven themselves to be. (Matthew 7:21-23)

Mature Christians manifest the three basic qualities that Paul said would dominate....”faith, hope and love”. Miracles are for spiritual babies....it takes maturity to base your faith on what you can’t see, and to demonstrate those qualities when those all around you have lost them.

The scriptures themselves tell us the whole story...not just a few verses plucked at random....which is why we need to study all of God’s word and allow his spirit to guide us. It is very obvious that he doesn’t guide everyone.....only those who love the truth. (John 6:44; John 6:65)

What did God have in mind when he put us here on this earth in the beginning? Using that as a basis for study, helps to see the big picture and where it all fits. That has been the basis for all my study. What about you?
 
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moorea944

Well-Known Member
My point was that it says:
we know in part
and we prophesy in part
You are saying that what was "in part" was done away with when the perfect word came - right? For that to be what it means, would require knowledge to have ceased also. (because both knowledge and prophecy are in part) Is that what you are going to say - that knowledge and prophesy have both ceased?

Sorry but we still only know in part. When those things have ceased, then we will know fully as we are known.

As far as healing. I know God can heal from personal experience. I have seen him heal others, and he has healed me personally before. So you aren't going to be able to convince me he doesn't heal. But he doesn't heal every time, and he doesn't heal on command. Even the Messiah himself didn't heal people at times because of their unbelief.


Healed you in what way? Emotionally?
 

TrueBeliever37

Well-Known Member
Healed you in what way? Emotionally?

No not emotionally. It was something physical that was extremely painful, that doctors had been unable to do anything about. I was prayed for, God touched me, and it was gone by the next morning, and has never come back.
 

Nova2216

Active Member
Helping someone know what to do to be saved eternally, is greater than healing them of a fever, or even raising them from the dead to die again.

Bingo, you have the correct answer.

Today we can do a greater work than the Lord. That greater work is to teach a sinner how to be forgiven of his sins and live a holy Lifestyle (AC.2:36-42) (Mark16:15,16) (Mt.28:18-20).

The verse below is not telling people they will be able to do a greater miracle than Jesus did in the first century. The greater work is to teach people about the plan of salvation.

12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; (Jn 14:12)

We could not top healing someone or raising the dead but we can teach someone the truth and show them the way to heaven. Though He paved the way he never converted anyone. That is b/c of what (2Cor.4:7) teaches. Men teach men (2Tim.2:2).

Jesus did not tell Paul what to do to be saved rather he told him where to go and who to listen too. Three days after speaking to Jesus on the road Ananias teaches Paul how to be forgiven for his sins in Damascus (Ac.22:16).

44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. 45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.(Jn 6:44,45)
 
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