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Debunking both Christianity and Islam in reverse order in minutes

DDD

New Member
A quick guide for exposing both religions. This one is easier to do than you think. All you have to do is first read both the Christian Bible and Qur'an to get a general idea of why both religions don't agree with each other's belief systems 100% of the way. Hence, different religions. Okay, so to begin:


  1. Muslim Claim: The Bible doesn't say Jesus is God.

Counter argument: Jesus does self profess that he is God clearly in John 8:56-59. As Jesus was getting into an altercation with the jewish people, he said, "I AM." This is a special reference for GOD in the OT to apart himself from the rest of the false gods. And the OT verse about God saying "I AM" is found here in Exodus 3:14. This disproves one of the fundamental beliefs about Jesus in Islam.


2. Muslim Claim: Jesus never said to worship him.


Counter argument: Jesus himself never said those words, yes, but that's because his father "God" already established the fact that he was already to be worshipped, such as by God's angels as God states in hebrews 1:6. Also, when the men in the boat saw Jesus walking on water and as he got to the boat, they started "worshipping" him while on their knees. Jesus NEVER condemned the men for doing this afterwards. Indicating that he was already fine with humans worshipping him in the first place also; Matthew 14:31-36.


3. Muslim claim: Muhammad is prophesied in the Bible.


Counter argument: 1. There is not one word in the koine greek NT papyrus' or OT hebrew papyrus' that translate to a name called, "Muhammad." 2. John 14:16 is based on the holy spirit. It is as clear as days if you re-read John 14:15-17. It is not prophesying about the coming prophet Muhammad. Deuteronomy 18:15-22 talks about a prophet from the israelites. Muhammad is NEVER mentioned as an israelite.


This is all that's required to put Islam to bed. Simply by disproving their religious beliefs of what they think biblical scripture says and proving that biblical scripture indeed contradicts their religious beliefs of said scriptures.



Now that Islam has been put to bed, let's put Christianity to sleep as well.



1. Christian claim: Jesus Christ is god/the son of God sent by the "father."


Counter argument: There are so many things wrong with this belief. I don't even know where to start. Let's start with the fundamental teachings of god, "the father" himself in the OT. Numbers 23:19 is a fundamental teaching of who God really is. And it disproves Jesus' claims of how he is God, "I AM," John 8:56-59 and also the fact that he is the "son of man" which Jesus describes himself as in luke 9:21-22 when prophesying his own death. Which God clearly says he isn't. And so Jesus is lying about being God. Because even false prophets can perform miracles and make you believe in other Gods also as God himself mentioned in Deuteronomy 13:1-2.


The fact that Jesus died on the cross in the flesh which proves himself to be a mortal, already contradicts what God described himself to be thus far. Not to mention God is NOT a man as he claims but a man named Jesus claiming to be God is alright in the eyes of a Christianity? Think about that.


2. Christian claim: Jesus fulfilled OT prophecies.


Counter argument: Did he really now? Not to mention that since he claims to be God, he should've fulfilled the prophecies that he prophesied about in the OT, right? Well he clearly didn't. And just like Numbers 23:19 states, "Is there anything God doesn't fulfill?" Let's see.


He failed one of the first OT prophecies which was to be descended from king David and king Solomon. Genesis 49:10 states that the messiah would descend from king David's side and king Solomon in Chronicles 22:9-10. Jesus already failed this due to a virgin birth. Mary in the NT has no genealogy except for it being hinted at in Luke 1:34-36. The angel confirmed Mary is biologically blood related to Elizabeth. And Luke 1:5 clearly states that Elizabeth is descended from king Aaron. Therefore since Mary is blood related to Elizabeth, she also follows that lineage. So we can conclude Mary is descended from king Aaron from the Levi tribe. There is no mention other than this of her genealogy.


We can also disregard her being descended from king David and Solomon at this point and also because she is not mentioned anywhere in the NT that she was descended from those two anyway. Now, even though Joseph is descended from king David and Solomon, he is disqualified from having any affiliation with Jesus since he made no biological contribution to Jesus' birth as clearly mentioned in Matthew 1:22-25. Only after his birth did Mary and Joseph biologically "consummate." This is a clear indication that Jesus failed this OT prophecy.


There are many other prophecies he didn't fulfill such as Jeramiah 30:3 and Isaiah 11:11-12 stating that the messiah would have been able to convince all the jews who are away from Israel to come back to their original home which is Israel. The third temple should've been built while the messiah was reigning the first time around; Isaiah 2:2-3, Ezekiel 37:26-27. There should've been worldwide peace and a complete end to war while the messiah reigned the first time around; Isaiah 60:18, Micah 4:1-4. But instead Jesus came to bring endless war and not peace as mentioned here, Matthew 10:34. Jesus never ruled as king, never sat on David's throne as king over Israel. Not all the jews observed God's commandments in the Torah, Deuteronomy 30:8. Not all people came to worship the one and only God in the Torah, Ezekiel 38:23.


BONUS! 3. Christian Claim: John the Baptist is Elijah.


Counter argument: This is another "lying for Jesus" quote. It's the same way how Isaiah 7:14 has a mistranslation and uses the word "Virgin" instead of the real translated hebrew word "young woman" or in aramic, "Young Maiden" in the naturalistic sense as the dead sea scrolls and the jewish hebrew language has obviously revealed, and that Hebrew is the FIRST translation of the OT scriptures, no question about it. So with that in mind, the idea at play here is similar but instead of a mistranslation, it's taking the verse totally out of context to "lie for Jesus" some more. Malachi 4:5-6 states that Elijah himself both body and spirit. There is no "Elijah's spirit only" in this verse like some Christians like to claim. And there is no indication that John doing this which Elijah was supposed to do in the first place, "And he will turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the hearts of the children to their fathers. "with that in mind, we now fast forward to Jesus' time and see where he quotes Elijah; Matthew 11:14, Matthew 17:12-13. Jesus is clearly stating with these two verses in mind, that John the Baptist is the one Elijah returned to earth as. Both body and spirit. But when the Jewish leaders sent priests and levites to ask John the Baptist if he was really Elijah, he clearly stated, "NO" in John 1:19-23. He was even questioned if he was the Messiah in those verses which he clearly stated, "I am not the Messiah" as well. John gives an explanation for who he is. He is, "I am the voice of one calling in the wilderness, ‘Make straight the way for the Lord" which was foreshadowed by the prophet Isaiah in Isaiah 40:3.


So with this in mind, where does this leave Jesus' bold claim? If Jesus knows things before they occur like at the last supper when he said one of his followers will betray him which happened, then what is his explanation for not saying John the Baptist is lying? The only logical conclusion is that Jesus was sorely mistaken. And perhaps even lied about John's identity.


Everything here prophesied in the OT was never fulfilled by Jesus' first coming. And so to make up for this, Christians claim that Jesus will one day come back to fulfill the OT prophecies he failed to do the first time around. This gives more incentive for the Jews not to think of him as the messiah even more though. As there is no second coming prophecy in the OT and the real Messiah would complete these prophecies the first time around, outright. Jesus simply lied about being God since he made the claim that he was God, yet, failed to do what he "supposedly" prophesied about in the OT. Proving him to be nothing more than a liar. Case closed.



~DD
 

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
Outstanding! Simply outstanding! We have at last settled the issues and discovered that both religions are "wrong". Thank goodness! We can all go back to our heavy drinking now. No longer any need to stay sober enough to discuss the issues.
 

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
A quick guide for exposing both religions. This one is easier to do than you think. All you have to do is first read both the Christian Bible and Qur'an to get a general idea of why both religions don't agree with each other's belief systems 100% of the way. Hence, different religions. Okay, so to begin:


  1. Muslim Claim: The Bible doesn't say Jesus is God.

Counter argument: Jesus does self profess that he is God clearly in John 8:56-59. As Jesus was getting into an altercation with the jewish people, he said, "I AM." This is a special reference for GOD in the OT to apart himself from the rest of the false gods. And the OT verse about God saying "I AM" is found here in Exodus 3:14. This disproves one of the fundamental beliefs about Jesus in Islam.


2. Muslim Claim: Jesus never said to worship him.


Counter argument: Jesus himself never said those words, yes, but that's because his father "God" already established the fact that he was already to be worshipped, such as by God's angels as God states in hebrews 1:6. Also, when the men in the boat saw Jesus walking on water and as he got to the boat, they started "worshipping" him while on their knees. Jesus NEVER condemned the men for doing this afterwards. Indicating that he was already fine with humans worshipping him in the first place also; Matthew 14:31-36.


3. Muslim claim: Muhammad is prophesied in the Bible.


Counter argument: 1. There is not one word in the koine greek NT papyrus' or OT hebrew papyrus' that translate to a name called, "Muhammad." 2. John 14:16 is based on the holy spirit. It is as clear as days if you re-read John 14:15-17. It is not prophesying about the coming prophet Muhammad. Deuteronomy 18:15-22 talks about a prophet from the israelites. Muhammad is NEVER mentioned as an israelite.


This is all that's required to put Islam to bed. Simply by disproving their religious beliefs of what they think biblical scripture says and proving that biblical scripture indeed contradicts their religious beliefs of said scriptures.



Now that Islam has been put to bed, let's put Christianity to sleep as well.



1. Christian claim: Jesus Christ is god/the son of God sent by the "father."


Counter argument: There are so many things wrong with this belief. I don't even know where to start. Let's start with the fundamental teachings of god, "the father" himself in the OT. Numbers 23:19 is a fundamental teaching of who God really is. And it disproves Jesus' claims of how he is God, "I AM," John 8:56-59 and also the fact that he is the "son of man" which Jesus describes himself as in luke 9:21-22 when prophesying his own death. Which God clearly says he isn't. And so Jesus is lying about being God. Because even false prophets can perform miracles and make you believe in other Gods also as God himself mentioned in Deuteronomy 13:1-2.


The fact that Jesus died on the cross in the flesh which proves himself to be a mortal, already contradicts what God described himself to be thus far. Not to mention God is NOT a man as he claims but a man named Jesus claiming to be God is alright in the eyes of a Christianity? Think about that.


2. Christian claim: Jesus fulfilled OT prophecies.


Counter argument: Did he really now? Not to mention that since he claims to be God, he should've fulfilled the prophecies that he prophesied about in the OT, right? Well he clearly didn't. And just like Numbers 23:19 states, "Is there anything God doesn't fulfill?" Let's see.


He failed one of the first OT prophecies which was to be descended from king David and king Solomon. Genesis 49:10 states that the messiah would descend from king David's side and king Solomon in Chronicles 22:9-10. Jesus already failed this due to a virgin birth. Mary in the NT has no genealogy except for it being hinted at in Luke 1:34-36. The angel confirmed Mary is biologically blood related to Elizabeth. And Luke 1:5 clearly states that Elizabeth is descended from king Aaron. Therefore since Mary is blood related to Elizabeth, she also follows that lineage. So we can conclude Mary is descended from king Aaron from the Levi tribe. There is no mention other than this of her genealogy.


We can also disregard her being descended from king David and Solomon at this point and also because she is not mentioned anywhere in the NT that she was descended from those two anyway. Now, even though Joseph is descended from king David and Solomon, he is disqualified from having any affiliation with Jesus since he made no biological contribution to Jesus' birth as clearly mentioned in Matthew 1:22-25. Only after his birth did Mary and Joseph biologically "consummate." This is a clear indication that Jesus failed this OT prophecy.


There are many other prophecies he didn't fulfill such as Jeramiah 30:3 and Isaiah 11:11-12 stating that the messiah would have been able to convince all the jews who are away from Israel to come back to their original home which is Israel. The third temple should've been built while the messiah was reigning the first time around; Isaiah 2:2-3, Ezekiel 37:26-27. There should've been worldwide peace and a complete end to war while the messiah reigned the first time around; Isaiah 60:18, Micah 4:1-4. But instead Jesus came to bring endless war and not peace as mentioned here, Matthew 10:34. Jesus never ruled as king, never sat on David's throne as king over Israel. Not all the jews observed God's commandments in the Torah, Deuteronomy 30:8. Not all people came to worship the one and only God in the Torah, Ezekiel 38:23.


BONUS! 3. Christian Claim: John the Baptist is Elijah.


Counter argument: This is another "lying for Jesus" quote. It's the same way how Isaiah 7:14 has a mistranslation and uses the word "Virgin" instead of the real translated hebrew word "young woman" or in aramic, "Young Maiden" in the naturalistic sense as the dead sea scrolls and the jewish hebrew language has obviously revealed, and that Hebrew is the FIRST translation of the OT scriptures, no question about it. So with that in mind, the idea at play here is similar but instead of a mistranslation, it's taking the verse totally out of context to "lie for Jesus" some more. Malachi 4:5-6 states that Elijah himself both body and spirit. There is no "Elijah's spirit only" in this verse like some Christians like to claim. And there is no indication that John doing this which Elijah was supposed to do in the first place, "And he will turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the hearts of the children to their fathers. "with that in mind, we now fast forward to Jesus' time and see where he quotes Elijah; Matthew 11:14, Matthew 17:12-13. Jesus is clearly stating with these two verses in mind, that John the Baptist is the one Elijah returned to earth as. Both body and spirit. But when the Jewish leaders sent priests and levites to ask John the Baptist if he was really Elijah, he clearly stated, "NO" in John 1:19-23. He was even questioned if he was the Messiah in those verses which he clearly stated, "I am not the Messiah" as well. John gives an explanation for who he is. He is, "I am the voice of one calling in the wilderness, ‘Make straight the way for the Lord" which was foreshadowed by the prophet Isaiah in Isaiah 40:3.


So with this in mind, where does this leave Jesus' bold claim? If Jesus knows things before they occur like at the last supper when he said one of his followers will betray him which happened, then what is his explanation for not saying John the Baptist is lying? The only logical conclusion is that Jesus was sorely mistaken. And perhaps even lied about John's identity.


Everything here prophesied in the OT was never fulfilled by Jesus' first coming. And so to make up for this, Christians claim that Jesus will one day come back to fulfill the OT prophecies he failed to do the first time around. This gives more incentive for the Jews not to think of him as the messiah even more though. As there is no second coming prophecy in the OT and the real Messiah would complete these prophecies the first time around, outright. Jesus simply lied about being God since he made the claim that he was God, yet, failed to do what he "supposedly" prophesied about in the OT. Proving him to be nothing more than a liar. Case closed.



~DD


So now thats all sorted, sit back and enjoy the wonderful cake that the staff lay on for new members

3291372281_d72ef5e24f_b.jpg
 
This is all that's required to put Islam to bed. Simply by disproving their religious beliefs of what they think biblical scripture says and proving that biblical scripture indeed contradicts their religious beliefs of said scriptures.

You might want to learn the difference between "things some Muslims say" and fundamental Islamic beliefs.

1 & 2: What the Bible says about Jesus really isn't particularly important.

3: What the Bible says about Muhammad is even less important.

Might as well have debunked Islam by appealing to the writings of L Ron Hubbard.
 

Twilight Hue

Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
A quick guide for exposing both religions. This one is easier to do than you think. All you have to do is first read both the Christian Bible and Qur'an to get a general idea of why both religions don't agree with each other's belief systems 100% of the way. Hence, different religions. Okay, so to begin:


  1. Muslim Claim: The Bible doesn't say Jesus is God.

Counter argument: Jesus does self profess that he is God clearly in John 8:56-59. As Jesus was getting into an altercation with the jewish people, he said, "I AM." This is a special reference for GOD in the OT to apart himself from the rest of the false gods. And the OT verse about God saying "I AM" is found here in Exodus 3:14. This disproves one of the fundamental beliefs about Jesus in Islam.


2. Muslim Claim: Jesus never said to worship him.


Counter argument: Jesus himself never said those words, yes, but that's because his father "God" already established the fact that he was already to be worshipped, such as by God's angels as God states in hebrews 1:6. Also, when the men in the boat saw Jesus walking on water and as he got to the boat, they started "worshipping" him while on their knees. Jesus NEVER condemned the men for doing this afterwards. Indicating that he was already fine with humans worshipping him in the first place also; Matthew 14:31-36.


3. Muslim claim: Muhammad is prophesied in the Bible.


Counter argument: 1. There is not one word in the koine greek NT papyrus' or OT hebrew papyrus' that translate to a name called, "Muhammad." 2. John 14:16 is based on the holy spirit. It is as clear as days if you re-read John 14:15-17. It is not prophesying about the coming prophet Muhammad. Deuteronomy 18:15-22 talks about a prophet from the israelites. Muhammad is NEVER mentioned as an israelite.


This is all that's required to put Islam to bed. Simply by disproving their religious beliefs of what they think biblical scripture says and proving that biblical scripture indeed contradicts their religious beliefs of said scriptures.



Now that Islam has been put to bed, let's put Christianity to sleep as well.



1. Christian claim: Jesus Christ is god/the son of God sent by the "father."


Counter argument: There are so many things wrong with this belief. I don't even know where to start. Let's start with the fundamental teachings of god, "the father" himself in the OT. Numbers 23:19 is a fundamental teaching of who God really is. And it disproves Jesus' claims of how he is God, "I AM," John 8:56-59 and also the fact that he is the "son of man" which Jesus describes himself as in luke 9:21-22 when prophesying his own death. Which God clearly says he isn't. And so Jesus is lying about being God. Because even false prophets can perform miracles and make you believe in other Gods also as God himself mentioned in Deuteronomy 13:1-2.


The fact that Jesus died on the cross in the flesh which proves himself to be a mortal, already contradicts what God described himself to be thus far. Not to mention God is NOT a man as he claims but a man named Jesus claiming to be God is alright in the eyes of a Christianity? Think about that.


2. Christian claim: Jesus fulfilled OT prophecies.


Counter argument: Did he really now? Not to mention that since he claims to be God, he should've fulfilled the prophecies that he prophesied about in the OT, right? Well he clearly didn't. And just like Numbers 23:19 states, "Is there anything God doesn't fulfill?" Let's see.


He failed one of the first OT prophecies which was to be descended from king David and king Solomon. Genesis 49:10 states that the messiah would descend from king David's side and king Solomon in Chronicles 22:9-10. Jesus already failed this due to a virgin birth. Mary in the NT has no genealogy except for it being hinted at in Luke 1:34-36. The angel confirmed Mary is biologically blood related to Elizabeth. And Luke 1:5 clearly states that Elizabeth is descended from king Aaron. Therefore since Mary is blood related to Elizabeth, she also follows that lineage. So we can conclude Mary is descended from king Aaron from the Levi tribe. There is no mention other than this of her genealogy.


We can also disregard her being descended from king David and Solomon at this point and also because she is not mentioned anywhere in the NT that she was descended from those two anyway. Now, even though Joseph is descended from king David and Solomon, he is disqualified from having any affiliation with Jesus since he made no biological contribution to Jesus' birth as clearly mentioned in Matthew 1:22-25. Only after his birth did Mary and Joseph biologically "consummate." This is a clear indication that Jesus failed this OT prophecy.


There are many other prophecies he didn't fulfill such as Jeramiah 30:3 and Isaiah 11:11-12 stating that the messiah would have been able to convince all the jews who are away from Israel to come back to their original home which is Israel. The third temple should've been built while the messiah was reigning the first time around; Isaiah 2:2-3, Ezekiel 37:26-27. There should've been worldwide peace and a complete end to war while the messiah reigned the first time around; Isaiah 60:18, Micah 4:1-4. But instead Jesus came to bring endless war and not peace as mentioned here, Matthew 10:34. Jesus never ruled as king, never sat on David's throne as king over Israel. Not all the jews observed God's commandments in the Torah, Deuteronomy 30:8. Not all people came to worship the one and only God in the Torah, Ezekiel 38:23.


BONUS! 3. Christian Claim: John the Baptist is Elijah.


Counter argument: This is another "lying for Jesus" quote. It's the same way how Isaiah 7:14 has a mistranslation and uses the word "Virgin" instead of the real translated hebrew word "young woman" or in aramic, "Young Maiden" in the naturalistic sense as the dead sea scrolls and the jewish hebrew language has obviously revealed, and that Hebrew is the FIRST translation of the OT scriptures, no question about it. So with that in mind, the idea at play here is similar but instead of a mistranslation, it's taking the verse totally out of context to "lie for Jesus" some more. Malachi 4:5-6 states that Elijah himself both body and spirit. There is no "Elijah's spirit only" in this verse like some Christians like to claim. And there is no indication that John doing this which Elijah was supposed to do in the first place, "And he will turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the hearts of the children to their fathers. "with that in mind, we now fast forward to Jesus' time and see where he quotes Elijah; Matthew 11:14, Matthew 17:12-13. Jesus is clearly stating with these two verses in mind, that John the Baptist is the one Elijah returned to earth as. Both body and spirit. But when the Jewish leaders sent priests and levites to ask John the Baptist if he was really Elijah, he clearly stated, "NO" in John 1:19-23. He was even questioned if he was the Messiah in those verses which he clearly stated, "I am not the Messiah" as well. John gives an explanation for who he is. He is, "I am the voice of one calling in the wilderness, ‘Make straight the way for the Lord" which was foreshadowed by the prophet Isaiah in Isaiah 40:3.


So with this in mind, where does this leave Jesus' bold claim? If Jesus knows things before they occur like at the last supper when he said one of his followers will betray him which happened, then what is his explanation for not saying John the Baptist is lying? The only logical conclusion is that Jesus was sorely mistaken. And perhaps even lied about John's identity.


Everything here prophesied in the OT was never fulfilled by Jesus' first coming. And so to make up for this, Christians claim that Jesus will one day come back to fulfill the OT prophecies he failed to do the first time around. This gives more incentive for the Jews not to think of him as the messiah even more though. As there is no second coming prophecy in the OT and the real Messiah would complete these prophecies the first time around, outright. Jesus simply lied about being God since he made the claim that he was God, yet, failed to do what he "supposedly" prophesied about in the OT. Proving him to be nothing more than a liar. Case closed.



~DD

If it only could be as simple as that. :0)

One thing though, belief can be like love. Its usually totally blind, infatuated and ignorant, to the realities.

I remember in Christianity there was only one simple thought that goes through the brain. If the Bible says it, I don't believe anything else no matter what.

Fortunately there are people who wake up from that and escape the rose colored glasses and life within the stained glass cathedral.
 

exchemist

Veteran Member
A quick guide for exposing both religions. This one is easier to do than you think. All you have to do is first read both the Christian Bible and Qur'an to get a general idea of why both religions don't agree with each other's belief systems 100% of the way. Hence, different religions. Okay, so to begin:


  1. Muslim Claim: The Bible doesn't say Jesus is God.

Counter argument: Jesus does self profess that he is God clearly in John 8:56-59. As Jesus was getting into an altercation with the jewish people, he said, "I AM." This is a special reference for GOD in the OT to apart himself from the rest of the false gods. And the OT verse about God saying "I AM" is found here in Exodus 3:14. This disproves one of the fundamental beliefs about Jesus in Islam.


2. Muslim Claim: Jesus never said to worship him.


Counter argument: Jesus himself never said those words, yes, but that's because his father "God" already established the fact that he was already to be worshipped, such as by God's angels as God states in hebrews 1:6. Also, when the men in the boat saw Jesus walking on water and as he got to the boat, they started "worshipping" him while on their knees. Jesus NEVER condemned the men for doing this afterwards. Indicating that he was already fine with humans worshipping him in the first place also; Matthew 14:31-36.


3. Muslim claim: Muhammad is prophesied in the Bible.


Counter argument: 1. There is not one word in the koine greek NT papyrus' or OT hebrew papyrus' that translate to a name called, "Muhammad." 2. John 14:16 is based on the holy spirit. It is as clear as days if you re-read John 14:15-17. It is not prophesying about the coming prophet Muhammad. Deuteronomy 18:15-22 talks about a prophet from the israelites. Muhammad is NEVER mentioned as an israelite.


This is all that's required to put Islam to bed. Simply by disproving their religious beliefs of what they think biblical scripture says and proving that biblical scripture indeed contradicts their religious beliefs of said scriptures.



Now that Islam has been put to bed, let's put Christianity to sleep as well.



1. Christian claim: Jesus Christ is god/the son of God sent by the "father."


Counter argument: There are so many things wrong with this belief. I don't even know where to start. Let's start with the fundamental teachings of god, "the father" himself in the OT. Numbers 23:19 is a fundamental teaching of who God really is. And it disproves Jesus' claims of how he is God, "I AM," John 8:56-59 and also the fact that he is the "son of man" which Jesus describes himself as in luke 9:21-22 when prophesying his own death. Which God clearly says he isn't. And so Jesus is lying about being God. Because even false prophets can perform miracles and make you believe in other Gods also as God himself mentioned in Deuteronomy 13:1-2.


The fact that Jesus died on the cross in the flesh which proves himself to be a mortal, already contradicts what God described himself to be thus far. Not to mention God is NOT a man as he claims but a man named Jesus claiming to be God is alright in the eyes of a Christianity? Think about that.


2. Christian claim: Jesus fulfilled OT prophecies.


Counter argument: Did he really now? Not to mention that since he claims to be God, he should've fulfilled the prophecies that he prophesied about in the OT, right? Well he clearly didn't. And just like Numbers 23:19 states, "Is there anything God doesn't fulfill?" Let's see.


He failed one of the first OT prophecies which was to be descended from king David and king Solomon. Genesis 49:10 states that the messiah would descend from king David's side and king Solomon in Chronicles 22:9-10. Jesus already failed this due to a virgin birth. Mary in the NT has no genealogy except for it being hinted at in Luke 1:34-36. The angel confirmed Mary is biologically blood related to Elizabeth. And Luke 1:5 clearly states that Elizabeth is descended from king Aaron. Therefore since Mary is blood related to Elizabeth, she also follows that lineage. So we can conclude Mary is descended from king Aaron from the Levi tribe. There is no mention other than this of her genealogy.


We can also disregard her being descended from king David and Solomon at this point and also because she is not mentioned anywhere in the NT that she was descended from those two anyway. Now, even though Joseph is descended from king David and Solomon, he is disqualified from having any affiliation with Jesus since he made no biological contribution to Jesus' birth as clearly mentioned in Matthew 1:22-25. Only after his birth did Mary and Joseph biologically "consummate." This is a clear indication that Jesus failed this OT prophecy.


There are many other prophecies he didn't fulfill such as Jeramiah 30:3 and Isaiah 11:11-12 stating that the messiah would have been able to convince all the jews who are away from Israel to come back to their original home which is Israel. The third temple should've been built while the messiah was reigning the first time around; Isaiah 2:2-3, Ezekiel 37:26-27. There should've been worldwide peace and a complete end to war while the messiah reigned the first time around; Isaiah 60:18, Micah 4:1-4. But instead Jesus came to bring endless war and not peace as mentioned here, Matthew 10:34. Jesus never ruled as king, never sat on David's throne as king over Israel. Not all the jews observed God's commandments in the Torah, Deuteronomy 30:8. Not all people came to worship the one and only God in the Torah, Ezekiel 38:23.


BONUS! 3. Christian Claim: John the Baptist is Elijah.


Counter argument: This is another "lying for Jesus" quote. It's the same way how Isaiah 7:14 has a mistranslation and uses the word "Virgin" instead of the real translated hebrew word "young woman" or in aramic, "Young Maiden" in the naturalistic sense as the dead sea scrolls and the jewish hebrew language has obviously revealed, and that Hebrew is the FIRST translation of the OT scriptures, no question about it. So with that in mind, the idea at play here is similar but instead of a mistranslation, it's taking the verse totally out of context to "lie for Jesus" some more. Malachi 4:5-6 states that Elijah himself both body and spirit. There is no "Elijah's spirit only" in this verse like some Christians like to claim. And there is no indication that John doing this which Elijah was supposed to do in the first place, "And he will turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the hearts of the children to their fathers. "with that in mind, we now fast forward to Jesus' time and see where he quotes Elijah; Matthew 11:14, Matthew 17:12-13. Jesus is clearly stating with these two verses in mind, that John the Baptist is the one Elijah returned to earth as. Both body and spirit. But when the Jewish leaders sent priests and levites to ask John the Baptist if he was really Elijah, he clearly stated, "NO" in John 1:19-23. He was even questioned if he was the Messiah in those verses which he clearly stated, "I am not the Messiah" as well. John gives an explanation for who he is. He is, "I am the voice of one calling in the wilderness, ‘Make straight the way for the Lord" which was foreshadowed by the prophet Isaiah in Isaiah 40:3.


So with this in mind, where does this leave Jesus' bold claim? If Jesus knows things before they occur like at the last supper when he said one of his followers will betray him which happened, then what is his explanation for not saying John the Baptist is lying? The only logical conclusion is that Jesus was sorely mistaken. And perhaps even lied about John's identity.


Everything here prophesied in the OT was never fulfilled by Jesus' first coming. And so to make up for this, Christians claim that Jesus will one day come back to fulfill the OT prophecies he failed to do the first time around. This gives more incentive for the Jews not to think of him as the messiah even more though. As there is no second coming prophecy in the OT and the real Messiah would complete these prophecies the first time around, outright. Jesus simply lied about being God since he made the claim that he was God, yet, failed to do what he "supposedly" prophesied about in the OT. Proving him to be nothing more than a liar. Case closed.



~DD
One Nil to Messrs. Dunning and Kruger. :rolleyes:
 

icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
A quick guide for exposing both religions. This one is easier to do than you think. All you have to do is first read both the Christian Bible and Qur'an to get a general idea of why both religions don't agree with each other's belief systems 100% of the way. Hence, different religions.

You seem to value critical thinking and logic, so do I.

But in those moments when apologists are defending their faith, they set aside logic. You cannot use logic to convince someone who doesn't value logic. sigh.
 

1213

Well-Known Member
…Jesus does self profess that he is God clearly in John 8:56-59. As Jesus was getting into an altercation with the jewish people, he said, "I AM." This is a special reference for GOD in the OT to apart himself from the rest of the false gods…

Also Paul says I am in the Bible. It does not mean person is claiming to be the God.

…Jesus himself never said those words, yes…

Thank you for telling that.

…Genesis 49:10 states that the messiah would descend from king David's side and king Solomon in Chronicles 22:9-10. …

Genesis 49:10 says actually: “The scepter will not depart from Judah, Nor the ruler's staff from between his feet, Until he comes to whom it belongs. To him will the obedience of the peoples be”.

Chronicles 22:9-10 is speaking of Salomon, who interestingly is also called son of God. .

….There are many other prophecies he didn't fulfill such as Jeramiah 30:3 and Isaiah 11:11-12 stating that the messiah would have been able to convince all the jews who are away from Israel to come back to their original home which is Israel. The third temple should've been built while the messiah was reigning the first time around; Isaiah 2:2-3, Ezekiel 37:26-27. There should've been worldwide peace and a complete end to war while the messiah reigned the first time around; Isaiah 60:18, Micah 4:1-4. But instead Jesus came to bring endless war and not peace as mentioned here, Matthew 10:34. Jesus never ruled as king, never sat on David's throne as king over Israel. Not all the jews observed God's commandments in the Torah, Deuteronomy 30:8. Not all people came to worship the one and only God in the Torah, Ezekiel 38:23. …

Jeremiah 30:3 is not about Messiah, it is about God.

Isaiah 11:11-12 is also not speaking of messiah.

Isaiah 2:2-3 has no word Messiah.

Ezekiel 37:26-27 has no word Messiah.

Isaiah 60:18 nothing about Messiah.

Micah 4:1-4 has no word Messiah.

It seems that you just randomly quote Bible without any rational thought.

To me Jesus is the King and he has brought peace to me.

…It's the same way how Isaiah 7:14 has a mistranslation and uses the word "Virgin" instead of the real translated hebrew word "young woman" or in aramic, "Young Maiden”… …

Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign. Behold, the virgin will conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.
Isaiah 7:14

If we would think that young woman of marriageable age is not same as virgin, that would mean the sign is that young woman bears a son. What sign would that be, doesn’t it happen quite often?

…. Malachi 4:5-6 states that Elijah himself both body and spirit. …

Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the great and terrible day of Yahweh comes. He will turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the hearts of the children to their fathers, lest I come and strike the earth with a curse."
Malachi 4:5-6

It doesn’t say “body and spirit”, why do you claim so?
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
I am not into reading long posts but I perused a little and I believe I didn't find any debunking
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
Outstanding! Simply outstanding! We have at last settled the issues and discovered that both religions are "wrong". Thank goodness! We can all go back to our heavy drinking now. No longer any need to stay sober enough to discuss the issues.

I can't believe you are so ready to drink the Kool Aid.
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
You might want to learn the difference between "things some Muslims say" and fundamental Islamic beliefs.

1 & 2: What the Bible says about Jesus really isn't particularly important.

3: What the Bible says about Muhammad is even less important.

Might as well have debunked Islam by appealing to the writings of L Ron Hubbard.

I believe a person who says the Bible is unimportant is really saying that God is unimportant and that all those references to it in the Qu'ran are trash.
 

Hawkins

Well-Known Member
You can't debunk history as it's not something falsifiable as a science.

When superman chooses to only tell his girl friend who he is, the rest of the world only rely on her to get to who superman is. That's common sense. If he showed his girl friend that he can fly to the moon, then she told the rest then how can that piece of info be debunked?
 
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