Unveiled Artist
Veteran Member
Cause its blasphemy to put yourself at the same level as the creator "and" say that you're the only way you can get to the creator.
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Jesus is not God
- Thread starter Ellen Brown
- Start date
Cause its blasphemy to put yourself at the same level as the creator "and" say that you're the only way you can get to the creator.
TheTruthReaper
Member
Who is the invisible God?
rrobs
Well-Known Member
You are thinking of John 10:33? It might help to read the next verse:
John 10:34,
Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
Could it be that every usage of the word "god" does not necessarily refer to God Almighty, Yahweh, that the ancient Jews understood the word in a different way than we in the modern West? It's worth considering.
1 Cor 8:5-6,
5 For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,)
6 But to us [there is but] one God, the Father, of whom [are] all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom [are] all things, and we by him.
6 But to us [there is but] one God, the Father, of whom [are] all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom [are] all things, and we by him.
Despite the truth that there are many gods, to Paul the only true God was the Father. That clearly leaves out the possibility that the son, Jesus, is also the one true God, Yahweh. Of course Paul lived a few hundred years before the Platonic loving so-called church fathers hammered out the trinity doctrine at the Council of Nicea. Too bad Paul didn't live long enough to learn the truth.
TheTruthReaper
Member
I am not thinking of any verse in the bible.
So tell me why do you think they wanted to stone Jesus?
rrobs
Well-Known Member
So then we are also God?
John 17:21,
That they all may be one; as thou, Father, [art] in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
1 Cor 3:8,
Now he that planteth (Paul) and he that watereth (Apollos) are one: and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour.
Better reconsider what God means when he uses the word "one" in conjunction with 2 or more people. Apparently it doesn't make those who are said to be "one" literally one and the same individual. Time to study the scriptures and nothing but the scriptures!
rrobs
Well-Known Member
Jesus did not keep it a secret that he was the son of God. According to ancient middle Eastern custom, the first born son was just one little teeny weensy notch below his father in power and authority. That is why they wanted to stone him.
Pharaoh made Joseph 2nd in command in Egypt. He gave him complete authority over the entire kingdom. The only person not subject to Joseph was Pharaoh himself (Genesis chapter 40). Is not Joseph a type Jesus?
1Cor 15:28,
And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
If this verse is understood in the same light as Joseph and Pharaoh, it all makes perfect sense. On the other hand, if we take Jesus to be God, we need to explain one part of God being subject to another. I have no idea how one would go about doing that. Aren't all 3 persons supposedly equal?
TheTruthReaper
Member
No, Jesus is not equal to His Father
rrobs
Well-Known Member
Didn't say they were equal. Almost equal (as was Joseph to Pharaoh), but not totally equal (as was Joseph to Pharaoh).
Clearly the son being subjected to the Father does in no way imply total equality. That is my point. Jesus is the son of God and therefore not God the Father.
TheTruthReaper
Member
What exactly is Jesus to you?
Redemptionsong
Well-Known Member
I'm afraid all of your explanations require introducing ideas that are not in the verses themselves. You have an agenda, and you appear hell-bent on making otherwise clear verses fit with that agenda.
All one has to do to make all these verses say Jesus is God is to say that Jesus was fully God and full man, 100% God and 100% man. Unfortunately, such an assertion, while found in many of the Pagan religions of that time, is glaringly missing from the scriptures.
If you use the fact that Jesus had a dual aspect, then you have to explain why we, also having a divine nature (2 Peter 1:4) as well as our human nature, are not also God. You might want to reconsider exactly what it means to have a divine as well as a human nature. It doesn't appear to make us be God. There must be something else to it. That's why we study.
1 Peter 2:5.'Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God, by Jesus Christ'.
The reason that I am not God is because I am a son of God by adoption. I am born again into the household of God, through Christ, my Saviour. I am a part of Christ's spiritual body, and as such an heir of God through Christ.
But maybe you don't believe the words of Paul.
'Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.' [Galatians 4:7]
No one can deny that Jesus was a man. This is not the issue. The question is whether Jesus had the Spirit of God 'without measure' [John 3:34-36]. The question is whether or not the 'fulness of the Godhead' dwelt in Jesus. The question is whether or not Jesus Christ had the authority of God whilst on earth.
If Jesus had God's authority on earth, He certainly has it in heaven!
Do you believe that the Spirit of Christ existed before coming to earth?
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metis
aged ecumenical anthropologist
rrobs
Well-Known Member
I agree with everything you said. However, nothing you said means Jesus is God.
Yes we are sons by adoption. In Rome an adopted son actually had more rights than a born son. The logic was that you were stuck with the son who was born to you, but you made a free will choice to adopt and thus you had more obligations to the adopted son. That's was the culture in which God said we are adopted.
However, we are also sons by seed.
1Pet 1:23,
Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
It is worth noting that the seed God created in us is incorruptible. Our earthly father's seed is corruptible. God's is much better!
I do not believe Jesus physically existed until he was born. He of course was in God's mind from the very beginning, but so were we.
Eph 1:4,
According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
There is a verse somewhere in the scriptures that says, "God calls things the be not as though they were." If something is in God's foreknowledge, it's as good as done, even before it actually occurs.
The word "spirit" is used in a variety of ways in the scriptures, so I'm not sure what you mean by the spirit of Jesus.
Take care and God bless
Redemptionsong
Well-Known Member
I agree with everything you said. However, nothing you said means Jesus is God.
Yes we are sons by adoption. In Rome an adopted son actually had more rights than a born son. The logic was that you were stuck with the son who was born to you, but you made a free will choice to adopt and thus you had more obligations to the adopted son. That's was the culture in which God said we are adopted.
However, we are also sons by seed.
1Pet 1:23,
Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.It is worth noting that the seed God created in us is incorruptible. Our earthly father's seed is corruptible. God's is much better!
I do not believe Jesus physically existed until he was born. He of course was in God's mind from the very beginning, but so were we.
Eph 1:4,
According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:There is a verse somewhere in the scriptures that says, "God calls things the be not as though they were." If something is in God's foreknowledge, it's as good as done, even before it actually occurs.
The word "spirit" is used in a variety of ways in the scriptures, so I'm not sure what you mean by the spirit of Jesus.
Take care and God bless
I'm still a bit confused as to what you do believe about the person of Jesus Christ!
Who do you think is the Shepherd of the 23rd Psalm? Is it God Almighty, or is it Jesus Christ?
rrobs
Well-Known Member
All of the words LORD in Psalm 23 are the Hebrew word Yahweh which always refer to God Almighty, the creator of the universe. That is true everywhere you see the word LORD in capital letters. It is because the Jews thought it irreverent to say God's name. Yahweh | Translation, Meaning, & Facts
Who do I think Jesus is? I'm glad you asked!
In Genesis he is the promised seed of the woman.
In Exodus he is the Passover lamb.
In Leviticus he is the High Priest.
In Numbers he is the star to rise out of Jacob.
In Deuteronomy he is the two laws: Love God and love your neighbor.
In Joshua he is the captain of the Lord of Hosts.
In Judges he is the covenant angel named Wonderful.
In Ruth he is the kinsman redeemer.
In Samuel he is the root and offspring of David.
In Kings he is the greater than the Temple.
In Chronicles he is the King's son.
In Ezra & Nehemiah he is the rebuilder.
In Esther he is the savior of God's people.
In Job he is the daysman.
In Psalms he is the song.
In Proverbs he is the wisdom of God.
In Ecclesiastes he is the one among a thousand.
In The Song of Solomon he is the bridegroom of the bride.
In Isaiah he is Jacob's branch.
In Jeremiah he is our righteousness.
In Lamentations he is the unbelievers' judgement.
In Ezekiel he is the true shepherd.
In Daniel he is the stone that became the head of the corner.
In Hosea he is the latter rain.
In Joel he is God's dwelling in Zion.
In Amos he is the raiser of David's tabernacle.
In Obadiah he is the deliverer on Mount Zion.
In Jonah he is our salvation.
In Micah he is the Lord of kings.
In Nahum he is the stronghold in the time of trouble.
In Habakkuk he is our joy and confidence.
In Zephaniah he is our mighty Lord.
In Haggai he is the desire of the nations.
In Zechariah he is our servant The Branch.
In Malachi he is the son of Righteousness.
In Matthew he is Jehovah's Messiah.
In Mark he is Jehovah's servant.
In Luke he is Jehovah's man.
In John he is Jehovah's Son.
In Acts he is the gift of holy spirit.
In Romans he is the believers' justification.
In Corinthians he is the believers' sanctification.
In Galatians he is the believers' righteousness.
In Ephesians he is the believers' heavenly standing.
In Philippians he is the believers' self adequacy.
In Colossians he is the believers' completeness.
In Thessalonians he is the believers' soon glorification.
In Timothy he is the faithful men.
In Titus he is the fellow-laborer.
In Philemon he is the love of a believer.
In Hebrews he is the High Priest for sin.
In James he is the royal law.
In Peter he is the pastor.
In John he is as we are.
In Jude he is the beloved.
In Revelation he is the King of kings and the Lord of lords.
Jesus is all of those things, but he isn't God. There is but one God for us and that is the Father (1 Cor 8:6).
God bless.
Redemptionsong
Well-Known Member
If you can see Jesus Christ in every book of the Bible, can you not also see Him in every word?
In Ezekiel, you see Jesus Christ as 'the true shepherd', but somehow you cannot see God.
Ezekiel 34:23. 'And I will set up one shepherd over them, and he shall feed them, even my servant David, he shall feed them, and he shall be their shepherd.'
Ezekiel 37:24. 'And David my servant shall be king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd: they shall also walk in my judgments, and observe my statutes, and do them.'
Now, let's look again at Psalm 23. As you rightly say, this is talking about God Almighty. 'The LORD is my shepherd'.
There is only one shepherd over the flock. Is it 'David my servant' [Jesus Christ], or is it God Almighty?
According to your belief, Jesus Christ is not God. So, how do you explain these passages from Ezekiel? If God is one, and David [Jesus Christ] is the one shepherd, the only conclusion open to us is that Jesus Christ is also the shepherd of Psalm 23, and, therefore, God [LORD].
rrobs
Well-Known Member
What you say would be true if the scriptures spoke of only one shepherd, but that is simply not the case.If you can see Jesus Christ in every book of the Bible, can you not also see Him in every word?
In Ezekiel, you see Jesus Christ as 'the true shepherd', but somehow you cannot see God.
Ezekiel 34:23. 'And I will set up one shepherd over them, and he shall feed them, even my servant David, he shall feed them, and he shall be their shepherd.'
Ezekiel 37:24. 'And David my servant shall be king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd: they shall also walk in my judgments, and observe my statutes, and do them.'
Now, let's look again at Psalm 23. As you rightly say, this is talking about God Almighty. 'The LORD is my shepherd'.
There is only one shepherd over the flock. Is it 'David my servant' [Jesus Christ], or is it God Almighty?
According to your belief, Jesus Christ is not God. So, how do you explain these passages from Ezekiel? If God is one, and David [Jesus Christ] is the one shepherd, the only conclusion open to us is that Jesus Christ is also the shepherd of Psalm 23, and, therefore, God [LORD].
Since Jesus came into this world without sin and by his free will remained so until the very end, he is a perfect representation of God, including the trait of a shepherd.
God explained Himself in the scriptures and then via the living Jesus.
Heb 1:1-2,
1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by [his] Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
The last phrase in verse 2 is interesting, "...by whom also he made the worlds." While it is often used as a proof text to show Jesus was God it actually does just the opposite.2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by [his] Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
The word "worlds" is the Greek word "aion" which Strong's Concordance defines as follows:
1. (properly) an age (or eon). a period of existence, though not merely a period of time (there are ages after the Last Day).
2. (by extension) ages, perpetuity (forward, also into the past).
3. (rarely) the beginning age (see John 9:32, Acts 15:18).
4. (rarely) the prior age (see Luke 1:70).
5. (often) the present age, the world today (see 1 Timothy 4:8, 1 Timothy 6:17).
As you can see, it refers to different eras or time periods, not the physical universe. There are a few versions that correctly use the word "ages" but most use the word "worlds." Why? I have no idea, but that's what they do.2. (by extension) ages, perpetuity (forward, also into the past).
3. (rarely) the beginning age (see John 9:32, Acts 15:18).
4. (rarely) the prior age (see Luke 1:70).
5. (often) the present age, the world today (see 1 Timothy 4:8, 1 Timothy 6:17).
The word "through" is the Greek word "dia." It always refers to an agent by whom someone does something. There is the one who initiates that action and the other who actually carries it out. Agency is certainly not an unknown concept. Your insurance agent does not actually insure you. The underwriter is the one who insures you but you never talk to him. You talk to his agent. The underwriter insures you through (dia) the agent.
Any way you look at it, the originator of an action and the agent through whom the action was completed are two separate persons. To support the trinity requires we abandon the everyday, universally accepted meaning of words. There is no indication in the scriptures that God changes the meaning of words. He is not a God of confusion, but of power, and love, and a sound mind. A sound mind understands there is no such thing as three people in one.
Suffice it to say, using the word "by" shows a definite bias on the part of the English translator. Of course all English translations came well after the Trinitarian doctrine was deeply entrenched in the Orthodox Church.
God bless
Redemptionsong
Well-Known Member
How can you say that the scriptures don't talk of one shepherd, when clearly they do! The shepherds [plural] are not of God, but of men.
There is ONE (good) SHEPHERD [Ezekiel 34:23 and Ezekiel 37:24. Also, John 10:11]
And the LORD [Yahweh] is MY SHEPHERD. [Psalm 23]
There is ONE SAVIOUR, who is Yahweh. [Hosea 13:4]
Yet, Jesus Christ is Saviour [John 4:42]
The LORD [Yahweh] is my Rock [Psalm 62:2; Psalm 18:2]
Yet, Jesus Christ is my Rock [1 Corinthians 10:4] Was Christ not with the Israelites in the wilderness?
God is the Word.[John 1:1]
Yet, Jesus Christ is the Word of God. [Revelation 19:13]
The LORD is Truth [Deuteronomy 32:4].
Yet, Jesus Christ is truth [John 14:6]
The LORD is good [Psalm 25:8]
Jesus Christ is good [John 10:11] And only God is good [Matthew 19:17]
And so the list gets longer and longer.
You may wish to dismiss Hebrews 1:2 as evidence of Jesus Christ as the creative Word of God, but the same teaching is found elsewhere. Are you about to dismiss these scriptures, too?
Colossians 1:16-19. 'For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
And he is head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;'
Jeremiah 10:10. 'But the LORD is the true God, he is the living God, and an everlasting king: at his wrath the earth shall tremble, and the nations shall not be able to abide his indignation'.
Jeremiah 10:12. 'He hath made the earth by his power, he hath established the world by his wisdom, and hath stretched out the heavens by his discretion.'
Does it matter whether you consider Jesus Christ as a man, and not as God? As I see it, this dishonours the person of Jesus Christ. It says to me that Jesus Christ does not have the right to be worshipped, whereas I understand there can be no true worship without Christ. How can anyone claim to know the Father above if they do not honour the Son whom he sent? And when the Father raises the Son to the throne in heaven, who then are we to serve through the Holy Spirit? [Daniel 7:14]
If God, without measure, did not come to earth and dwell in a temple of his own making, then why give Jesus the name Emmanuel [Isaiah 7:14]. Is he not 'God with us'?
Isaiah 60:19. ';but the LORD shall be unto thee an everlasting light, and thy God thy glory.'
John 8:12. 'Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world; he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.'
rrobs
Well-Known Member
There are several verses that talk about men being worshiped. The Hebrew word is "shachah."
Gen 23:7,
And Abraham stood up, and bowed (shachah) himself to the people of the land, [even] to the children of Heth.
Gen 27:29,
Let people serve thee, and nations bow down (shachah) to thee (Jacob): be lord over thy brethren, and let thy mother's sons bow down to thee: cursed [be] every one that curseth thee, and blessed [be] he that blesseth thee.
Gen 42:6,
And Joseph [was] the governor over the land, [and] he [it was] that sold to all the people of the land: and Joseph's brethren came, and bowed down (shachah) themselves before him [with] their faces to the earth.
The translation "bowed" instead of "worship" once again shows the bias of the English translators. Apparently they thought, like many Christians today, that worship is reserved only for Yahweh. But here we have several men being "worshiped." Maybe we need to rethink what it means to worship.
I know I only covered one thing you wrote here. If you don't mind, could you respond to what I said about worship instead of going in many directions at once. Tell me why, after seeing these verses (and there are many others just like these), you think that only God can be worshiped. I know it sounds blasphemous to many, but is that not what these three verses would clearly indicate? If not, why not?
So please let's go in smaller chunks. If you don't mind, comment on these verses and then maybe give me another verse you think means Jesus is God, and I'll comment on it. But please, one thing at a time.
Take care.
Redemptionsong
Well-Known Member
Hi rrobs,
Yes, I'm happy with smaller chunks. The only reason I gave multiple examples is that they all made a single point, which is that all the qualities of God are to be found in the risen Lord Jesus Christ.
Maybe you can begin by answering the question about the shepherds. Here it is, again:
There is ONE (good) SHEPHERD [Ezekiel 34:23 and Ezekiel 37:24. Also, John 10:11]
And the LORD [Yahweh] is MY (good) SHEPHERD. [Psalm 23]
How do you explain this?
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rrobs
Well-Known Member
Well, before I answer about the shepherds, how about telling me what you think about worshiping? If you think I'm wrong about that, then I would suspect you'd think I'm wrong about everything I say. You certainly have the right, but it would not seem worth going on and on saying things you don't believe. On the other hand, if you think what I said about worshiping may be right, then it would indicate that you may be open to new ideas, ideas seldom taught in church but that you do see in the scriptures. I hope you understand.
Please don't take this as an I'm right and you are wrong. I don't mean it that way. I might even say, "why do you call me right? There is none right but God."
Here is what I said about worship:
There are several verses that talk about men being worshiped. The Hebrew word is "shachah."
Gen 23:7,
And Abraham stood up, and bowed (shachah) himself to the people of the land, [even] to the children of Heth.
Gen 27:29,
Let people serve thee, and nations bow down (shachah) to thee (Jacob): be lord over thy brethren, and let thy mother's sons bow down to thee: cursed [be] every one that curseth thee, and blessed [be] he that blesseth thee.
Gen 42:6,
And Joseph [was] the governor over the land, [and] he [it was] that sold to all the people of the land: and Joseph's brethren came, and bowed down (shachah) themselves before him [with] their faces to the earth.
The translation "bowed" instead of "worship" once again shows the bias of the English translators. Apparently they thought, like many Christians today, that worship is reserved only for Yahweh. But here we have several men being "worshiped." Maybe we need to rethink what it means to worship.
God bless.