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Melchizedek: Psalm 110:4 and its Discontents

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
Exodus 3: 1; Now Moses was keeping the flock of his father-in-law Jethro. 'Father-in-law number one.'

Judges 4: 11; Now Heber the Kenite, had separated from the Kenites the descendants of Hobab the father-in-law of Moses. 'Father-in-law number two.'

Now surely, the fact that Moses had two fathers-in-law, must ring a bell, can you hear it ringing young fellow?

From The JPS Torah Commentary: Numbers

29. Hobab son of Reuel the Midianite Probably "Hobab of the Midianite clan of Reuel." The identification of Hobab is difficult. He is designated here as Moses' father-in-law (also in Judg/ 1:16, 4:11), a role assigned to Reuel in Exodus 2:18 and to Jethro in Exodus 18. Three solutions have been proposed: (1) Hobab an Jethro are the same person and Reuel is their father, (2) the term hoten means a relation of the bride, hence, brother-in-law as well as father-in-law, by which Reuel becomes the father of Hobab/Jethro and the father-in-law of Moses, (3) Reuel is a clan name, as seen by its association with Midian (Gen. 25:3 LXX) and Edom (Gen. 36:17; I Chron, 1:35,37), and therefore hoten in this verse should be read hatan, "son-in-law," thereby making Hobab, the young desert scout of the Midianite clan of Reuel, Moses' son-in-law.​

Which, if any, of these solutions is accurate? I honestly don't know. What I do know is that your certainty looks very much like adolescent cockiness.
 

Harel13

Am Yisrael Chai
Staff member
Premium Member
it is obvious that you not up to scratch on the Talmud also.
You've finished the entire Talmud?! Wow! I'm still making my through it. How many tractates have you completed? I've got some questions on that too, and seeing as you're an expert, maybe you'll be able to answer them for me?
We are well aware that you are not conversant with the NT, and because you believe that Caleb the son of Hezon, is one and the same person as the 40 year old Caleb the son of Jephunneh the Kenezite
So what do you think about that quote I brought from Tractate Tmurah?
Now surely, the fact that Moses had two fathers-in-law, must ring a bell, can you hear it ringing young fellow?
:rolleyes: that's all very nice (and is nothing new to me), but none of that shows that wife no. 2 is Jephunneh, as you suggest.
BTW, you never did answer the question; "In what Year do you believe that the exodus occurred?"
Pretty sure year ב'תמ"ח.
The Hebrew bible from which the Jews in Alexandria translated into Greek some two hundred years before Jesus, was the main source from which the Greek speaking northern Jews studied in the day of Jesus
And your main source is, as a "Bible believer"?
It seems you suggest the translation is better than the original.
All the persons of the House of Jacob, which includes Jacob who were in Egypt were 70.
Have you ever bothered counting them?
 

Harel13

Am Yisrael Chai
Staff member
Premium Member
I prefer Maimonides: "You must accept the truth from whatever source it comes.”

Be that as it may, you might find Mekhilta d'Yishmael 12:40 relevant. It's referenced in Sarna's commentary on Exodus 12:40 where he notes:

40-41. This historical summation does not exactly accord with the four hundred years of Egyptian oppression predicted in Genesis 15:13. The Mekhilta resolves the discrepancy by attributing the thirty-year difference to the interval between God's covenant with Abraham and the birth of Isaac, although the text speaks clearly enough only of the Egyptian episode. The inclusion of the sojourn in Canaan in the computation is explicit in the texts of the Samaritan recension and the Septuagint translation. The variant in this latter is noted in rabbinic sources. Ibn Ezra begins the reckoning with the departure of Abraham from Haran for Canaan. And, in fact, exactly two hundred and fifteen years elapsed between that event and Jacob's migration to Egypt, yielding the same time span for the stay of the Israelites in Egypt. This kind of symmetry follows a pattern well established in the patriarchal narratives and describe elsewhere in the Book of Genesis. Thus, Abraham lived seventy-five years in the home of his father and seventy-five years in the lifetime of his son Isaac. He was one hundred years of age at the birth of Isaac, and lived one hundred years in Canaan. Jacob lived seventeen years with Joseph in Canaan and a like period with him in Egypt. Ten generations separated Noah from Adam, and another ten generations, Abraham from Noah. In the light of these facts it may be that neatly balanced periods of time are intended to be rhetorical rather than literal; that is, they underline the biblical ideal of history as the fulfillment of God's deliberate design. In the world view of the Bible, history cannot be merely a series of disconnected haphazard incidents.​
Thanks @Jayhawker Soule. It's not really a question for me, it's more how the conversation has been rolling.
 

The Anointed

Well-Known Member
From The JPS Torah Commentary: Numbers

29. Hobab son of Reuel the Midianite Probably "Hobab of the Midianite clan of Reuel." The identification of Hobab is difficult. He is designated here as Moses' father-in-law (also in Judg/ 1:16, 4:11), a role assigned to Reuel in Exodus 2:18 and to Jethro in Exodus 18. Three solutions have been proposed: (1) Hobab an Jethro are the same person and Reuel is their father, (2) the term hoten means a relation of the bride, hence, brother-in-law as well as father-in-law, by which Reuel becomes the father of Hobab/Jethro and the father-in-law of Moses, (3) Reuel is a clan name, as seen by its association with Midian (Gen. 25:3 LXX) and Edom (Gen. 36:17; I Chron, 1:35,37), and therefore hoten in this verse should be read hatan, "son-in-law," thereby making Hobab, the young desert scout of the Midianite clan of Reuel, Moses' son-in-law.​

Which, if any, of these solutions is accurate? I honestly don't know. What I do know is that your certainty looks very much like adolescent cockiness.

Sorry sunshine, but Moses married Zipporah the daughter of Jethro, his first father-in-law, and some 40 years later he married a woman who was a descendant of Ham from the tribe of Cush, which was offensive to Miriam and Aaron, who God punished because of their insolence.

1 Chronicles, states that the sons of Reu'el, are Nahath, Zera, Shammah, and Mizzah, where in scripture does it say that Nahath, Zera, Shammah, and Mizzah, are the sons of Hobab the father-in-law to Moses?

You say that the term hoten means a relation of the bride, but the Hebrew term 'CHATHAN' as used in Judges 4: 11; means 'WIFE'S FATHER'. so you can continue to rant and rave all that you like, but the fact remains that Moses married Jephunneh the mother of the 40 year old Caleb, who was a descendant of Cush the son of Ham, and the widow of a man from the tribe of Judah.
 

Harel13

Am Yisrael Chai
Staff member
Premium Member
You say that the term hoten means a relation of the bride, but the Hebrew term 'CHATHAN' as used in Judges 4: 11; means 'WIFE'S FATHER'. so you can continue to rant and rave all that you like, but the fact remains that Moses married Jephunneh the mother of the 40 year old Caleb, who was a descendant of Cush the son of Ham, and the widow of a man from the tribe of Judah.
I'm still not clear on why you think this supposed second wife is Jephunneh, of all people.
 

The Anointed

Well-Known Member
I'm still not clear on why you think this supposed second wife is Jephunneh, of all people.

To someone who believes that Caleb the son of Hezron, is one and the same person as the 40 year old Caleb the son of Jephunneh the Kenezite, I would imagine that not too much would be clear to such a person.
 

Harel13

Am Yisrael Chai
Staff member
Premium Member
To someone who believes that Caleb the son of Hezron, is one and the same person as the 40 year old Caleb the son of Jephunneh the Kenezite, I would imagine that not too much would be clear to such a person.
Yes yes, you think you're more well-versed to me, blah blah blah. Now, for the evidence?
And could I have your thoughts on the Talmudic text from Tmurah 16a or that too much to ask?
 

The Anointed

Well-Known Member
Yes yes, you think you're more well-versed to me, blah blah blah. Now, for the evidence?
And could I have your thoughts on the Talmudic text from Tmurah 16a or that too much to ask?

Yes, it's too much to ask, I am not interested in the ramblings of old rabbi's, ask me anything concerning the Jewish bible which has been translated to English by Jews?
 

The Anointed

Well-Known Member
Hmmm...then why quote it in the first place?
And...evidence for your claim on Jephunneh?


Hmmm...then why quote it in the first place?

And...evidence for your claim on Jephunneh?


I quote from the Torah, not from the erroneous interpretations of old rabbi's.

I have given you all the evidence you need. Moses had two Fathers-in-law. Exodus 3:1; "Now Moses was keeping the flock of his father-in-law Jethro." That's father-in-law number one.

Judges 4: 11; Now Heber the Kenite had separated from the Kenites, the descendants of Hobab the father-in-law of Moses. Father-in-law number two.

You will notice that they are the descendants of Hobab the father-in-law to Moses, and not the descendants of Hobab's Son-in-law, Moses? Moses had no biological children to his second wife, Jephunneh the daughter of Hobab.

Two fathers-in-law, means two wives. And although Moses had two wives, his only two sons were Eliezer and Gershom, who were born of Zipporah the daughter of Jethro, his only known grandson was Jonathan the son of Gershon, who became the priest of the Danites who attacked the peaceful town of Laish, killing all its inhabitants and renaming the town 'DAN,' That was only some forty years after they had moved into the land of Canaan after escaping the land of Egypt. See Judges 18

The men from Dan set up the idol to be worshipped, and Jonathan, the son of Gershom and grandson of Moses, served as a priest for the tribe of Dan, and his descendants served as their priests until the people (The ten northern tribes of Israel) were taken away into exile.

Zipporah the first wife of Moses, and the Daughter of Jethro the Midianite, was a descendant of Abraham Genesis 25:1-2 (NKJV) 1 Abraham again took a wife, and her name was Keturah. 2 And she bore him Zimran, Jokshan, Medan, Midian, Ishbak, and Shuah. 3 Jokshan begot Sheba and Dedan. And the sons of Dedan were Asshurim, Letushim, and Leummim. 4 And the sons of Midian were Ephah, Epher, Hanoch, Abidah, and Eldaah. All these were the children of Keturah.

The second wife of Moses was a dark-skinned woman, the daughter of Hobab the Kenite, who is the second father-in-law to Moses, and she was a descendant of Cush the son of Ham,

I now leave you to discover for yourself, where the Name of Hobab’s daughter, who Moses had taken as his second wife, is revealed in the Scriptures.
 

Harel13

Am Yisrael Chai
Staff member
Premium Member
The second wife of Moses was a dark-skinned woman, the daughter of Hobab the Kenite, who is the second father-in-law to Moses, and she was a descendant of Cush the son of Ham
I still don't understand why Jephunneh is the name of that daughter, nor why you think Hobab was from Cush, when it clearly says in Numbers 10:29: "And Moses said unto Hobab, the son of Reuel the Midianite, Moses' father-in-law"?

The only time the name Jephunneh is mentioned not in connection with Caleb is a person named Jephunneh who was a descendant of Asher, mentioned in Chronicles.
 
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Harel13

Am Yisrael Chai
Staff member
Premium Member
And the Talmud states, Whoever brings up an orphan in his home is regarded as though the child had been born to him (Sanhedrin 119b) whether you like it or not sunshine. And a Child that is regarded to have been born of the Father of that house, is entitled to inherit from his Father.
I quote from the Torah, not from the erroneous interpretations of old rabbi's.
Uh huh. Okay, whatever you say.
 

The Anointed

Well-Known Member
I still don't understand why Jephunneh is the name of that daughter, nor why you think Hobab was from Cush, when it clearly says in Numbers 10:29: "And Moses said unto Hobab, the son of Reuel the Midianite, Moses' father-in-law"?

Exodus 2: 16-18; Now (Jethro) a priest of Midian had seven daughters, (No mention of any sons here, only seven daughters) and they came to draw water and fill the troughs to water their father's flock. Some shepherds came along and drove them away, but Moses got up and came to their rescue and watered their flock. When the girls returned to Reuel their father, he asked them, "Why have you returned so early today?"

Surely if Jethro had a son at that time, he would have been caring for the sheep, as Moses his son-in-law did.

Exodus 3: 1; Now Moses was keeping the flock of his Father-in-law, Jethro, the priest of Midian.

Reuel and Jethro the father-in-law of Moses and priest of Midian, are one and the same person, as reveled THERE.

Hobab the 'KENITE', the father-in-law of Moses, was a descendant of Cush the son of Ham, and he was not a Midianite, who are the descendants of Abraham, and it appears that Hobab the Kenite had married one, of Jethro's seven daughters, who had a daughter themselves, which daughter would be considered, not as a Midianite, but a descendant of Cush as was her Father, Hobab the Kenite.

Judges 4: 11; Hobab the father-in-law of Moses, The Hebrew word here translated as Father-in-law, is 'chathan,' which means 'WIFE'S FATHER.

Girls in those days at the age of 14-15, were considered to be of Child bearing age, Even Mary the mother of Jesus was only 14 or 15 when she gave birth to Jesus, the first born of her sons and daughters.

How old was Moses when he fled from the wrath of Pharoah? And how many years did he live in the house of Jethro? And how old was he when he returned to Egypt to set the Israelites free?

After they left Egypt, Moses married a female descendant of Cush the son of Ham.

Keep looking and you will find out who she was. It is much better to teach a man how to catch fish to feed himself, rather than giving him a fish now and then.
 

The Anointed

Well-Known Member
It seems you suggest the translation is better than the original.

And you have access to the original from which the Jews in Alexandria translated the Septuagint some 300 years before Jesus do you?

I thought that the Aleppo Codex, was the oldest Hebrew Bible that has survived to modern times, and it was created by scribes called Masoretes in Tiberias, Israel around 930 C.E.

From which Hebrew bible did they translate the Aleppo Codex? Perhaps they translated it form Jerome's Latin translation of the Hebrew that was still in existence in the 4th century.
 

Harel13

Am Yisrael Chai
Staff member
Premium Member
And you have access to the original from which the Jews in Alexandria translated the Septuagint some 300 years before Jesus do you?
Assuming, of course, that the Septuagint that's used today really is the one made by the Jews of Alexandria, and not a later Greek translation.
From which Hebrew bible did they translate the Aleppo Codex? Perhaps they translated it form Jerome's Latin translation of the Hebrew that was still in existence in the 4th century.
Why would Jews use a Christian's translation?
 

The Anointed

Well-Known Member
:rolleyes:

Uh huh. So you suppose. Why is Hobab described as Reuel's son, then?

If you believe that the Hobab mentioned in Numbers 10: 29; is not the son-in-law, but an actual biological son of Jethro, who is also called Reuel, then that Hobab would be a Midianite descendant of Abraham, and a completely different person to Hobab the Kenite as mentioned in Judges 4: 11; who is the father-in-law to Moses and a descendant of Cush the Hamite.

But I can not see Jesthro the father of seven daughters having an actual biological son, who would have been the keeper of his father's sheep, rather that his son-in-law Moses.

And BTW, the laws established by the Sanhedrin, are not the erroneous interpretations of the old worn out rabbi's.
 

Harel13

Am Yisrael Chai
Staff member
Premium Member
And BTW, the laws established by the Sanhedrin, are not the erroneous interpretations of the old worn out rabbi's
Really? And why is that? The Sanhedrin were also "old, worn out rabbis".


If you believe that the Hobab mentioned in Numbers 10: 29; is not the son-in-law, but an actual biological son of Jethro, who is also called Reuel, then that Hobab would be a Midianite descendant of Abraham, and a completely different person to Hobab the Kenite as mentioned in Judges 4: 11; who is the father-in-law to Moses and a descendant of Cush the Hamite.

But I can not see Jesthro the father of seven daughters having an actual biological son, who would have been the keeper of his father's sheep, rather that his son-in-law Moses.

You say that the term hoten means a relation of the bride, but the Hebrew term 'CHATHAN' as used in Judges 4: 11; means 'WIFE'S FATHER'. so you can continue to rant and rave all that you like
So in some places you take a word literally and in others not. Okay.

And Jephunneh fits into all of this because...?
 

rosends

Well-Known Member
Judges 4: 11; Hobab the father-in-law of Moses, The Hebrew word here translated as Father-in-law, is 'chathan,' which means 'WIFE'S FATHER..
Hi there!
Quick question -- are you saying that Judges 4:11 uses the word Chatan? It seems to use "choten" which means father-in-law.

If you are looking for chatan, try Sam 1, 18:18 in which Chatan means "son-in-law", or Isaiah 62:5 in which it means "groom". You could look in Ex. 4:25 and 26 but the meaning there is very strange.

By the way, I'm using the Judaica Press English text for translations.
 
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